It’s been some time coming, we finally get to speak with SMSBump, a service we’ve been introduced to very early on Ecomonics. My guest today Elena Kostova and I get to discuss the importance of SMS marketing, how it’s distinguished from email marketing, what the consumer comes to expect from texting these days and what the future holds for communication. Elena and I share a lot of valuable information about why this essential tool needs to be integrated into your strategy, soon as you can really.
Elena Kostova is the Product Marketing Manager at SMSBump - with extensive knowledge and 4+ years of experience in text marketing. Elena helps brands use SMS to establish long-lasting relationships with customers, drive more sales and boost revenue.
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Elena Kostova: [00:00:00] Each business like we also as marketers in the industry like for me we are the people that should be the most responsible ones cause consumers like we should try to show them in a way like you may need to be responsible. Like it's not about the customer having to click unsubscribe but it's about you not spamming the people and respecting their personal space. I really do think that the responsibility in the end should always fall to the company.
Joseph: [00:00:34] Your listening to Ecomonics, a Debutify podcast. Your resource for one of the kind of insights into the world of e-commerce and business in the modern age. This is Joseph. I'll be presenting a wealth of industry knowledge from interviews with successful business people and our own state-of-the-art research. Your time is valuable so let's go.
It's been some time coming, but we finally get to speak with SMSbump, a service we've been introduced to a very early on Ecomonics. My guest today, Elena Kostova and I get to discuss the importance of SMS marketing, how it's distinguished from email marketing, what the consumer comes to expect from texting these days and what the future holds for communication. Elena and I share a lot of valuable information about why this essential tool needs to be integrated into a strategy. So does you can really.
Elena Kostova. It is good to have you here on Ecomonics. Uh, it's a, it's an honor to finally have somebody from SMS bump, uh, on the program, your, your, your company, your service on with Debutify. We've been doing a lot of work together, so it's great to, to be a part of that larger conversation. So how you, how you doing today? How you feeling?
Elena Kostova: [00:01:43] First of all, thank you for having me. It's a really great pleasure. It's. Uh, as I said, if it's also great working with the whole team of Debutify. I'm, I'm doing great today. It's, um, spring is coming soon, so like really happy to get more sunny days. How are you?
Joseph: [00:02:00] I'm doing, I'm doing all right. I, uh, for listeners who tuned into our previous episode, um, uh, with, uh, Farhad Hossan, uh, I got to do some housekeeping. So for those of you listeners who thought my nightmare with the drilling outside was over, it is not. Those wires are still hanging outside. So we'll continue this saga as long as it goes on for. Also, I just wanted to say, I love that glass that you had. By the way, for audio listeners. If you're wondering if you've been betrayed. Yes, you have definitely been betrayed. I know what this feels like. It's a video show now. We're all just going to have to get used to this, but can you show the glass to our listeners for a second or to our viewers for a second? Is that, is, that is, yeah, that one that is gorgeous.
I've never, I never seen it with that.
Elena Kostova: [00:02:43] That's a really great thing about the glass. If it tells me the bottle, so they're like quinoa, I'm like stop drinking. Like you can close it up. It really reminds me of when I used to travel to Italy, they always give you like and was like really cute small glasses for water.
So it's like sprays a really nice feeling at home.
Joseph: [00:03:01] W we, we had, we had a glass like that. I'll tell you a quick story before we get into this. So my, uh, my dad was trying to show us like a science experiment or maybe he just wanted to light alcohol on a fire. Maybe it was both. And so he has a glass it's very much like that, that, that same composition.
And of course the alcohol in it, it might've been. It might've been vodka. I just remember being very clear. It lights it on fire and the, and the, and it ignites and it's blue and we're all looking at it fascinated and it's beautiful. Like, wow, that's really cool. And 10 seconds go by. The whole thing blows up.
And we all, like.
Elena Kostova: [00:03:36] That's a great experience with alcohol. Like I think he, if I started the first time I had contact with alcohol, with like some exploding, my, uh, student years might have been slightly different.
Joseph: [00:03:50] Yeah. I mean, I think it's possible. He was trying to warn me, did it work some of the time, eventually it wore off.
And, uh, now I have, I have like high school and nostalgia for, for Jack Daniels. Like I'm not, I'm not much of a drinker anymore. I re I do rarely drink. Um, just plenty of other things to enjoy, but with, uh, with Jack Daniels, as soon as I open that bottle, I take it with I'm like, ah, some are great 11 going into grade 12.
Uh, you are, as I, uh, basically, uh, gave away to the audiences, you know, you're with a SMS bump, but there's also like the yacht full company, which I have to say, I don't know too much about. So I will want to hear a little bit about the association with that. Um, but we'll, we'll get to that first. I have to ask you this, not that it's a contractual obligation or anything.
I just, I, haven't not asked this question, so I'm not going to stop now, but tell us who you are and what do you do?
Elena Kostova: [00:04:44] Yeah. Uh, so I'm Elena Kostova. I'm a product marketing manager, uh, to smsbump. In other words, I can say like me with a really amazing and talented team of several other marketers, we manage the SMS bump part of the marketing.
And because as you mentioned, um, we are now part of the yotpo, uh, Bigger family. So like we are divided into different styles based on different products. So yeah. Uh, I work at the SMS bump.
Joseph: [00:05:16] Now, was SMS bump. Uh, so it was, was it like bought ormerged into yotpo?
Elena Kostova: [00:05:20] Uh, we, we got acquired last year in February, I think. Yeah.
Joseph: [00:05:25] I think it's important for a audience to understand some of how the industry is organized. Um, we don't have to get too much into what a yotpo is, but I think it's important for people to understand that there are larger companies similar to say, like, I don't know, a phone company that has a bunch of brands that it works for, or a media company that has a bunch of, uh, uh, studios.
There's a lot of analogies, none of which I'm formulating as accurately as they deserve, but I tried. So can you just give us like a quick rundown of what yotpo was about as far as you are able to.
Elena Kostova: [00:05:57] Of course, of course. So yotpo start, uh, started several years ago as a review, uh, provider reviews provider, um, And it'd only grew from there.
So right now they're like, I would say maybe four main silos we had reviewed. We have reviews, we have loyalty which was also as part of an acquisition of the swell company is some people might know it previously. And now with the acquisition of SMS bump, they added an additional branch, which is SMS marketing.
And the goal of the company is to create this 360 degrees platform for e-commerce marketers, basically to find all the solutions in the onehead to have this full synergy of all the products. So, you know, to just like enrich also like the customer data or the profile of your customers. So like, Yeah, basically what Adobe is doing.
Like I'll say in terms of, you know, how adopt is for designers, similar push should be for marketers in the e-commerce ecosystem.
Joseph: [00:07:01] Yeah. It's, you know, it's good that you're bringing up a Adobe because I have, I have a long run relationship with that particular software or that company. But when I was very young, only 8 years old, I, uh, legally acquired a copy of flash and I legally made a cartoon content on it.
And it was a great starting point because that unlocked my creativity. Now, Macromedia was bought up by Adobe and flash is now called animate, at least to everybody else. I refuse to call it that except by accident. So what I, from a business model perspective and the reason most important reason to bring this up is that it presents the customer with really the ultimate value proposition. Um, I subscribed to like the full creative suite for a couple of years, and I did the math as best I could because I'm actually abysmal at math, but if you use at least four of however many pieces of software there, you, you make your money back. And so what I would wonder about is is there like a, a parallel or of the creative suite where there a way to just get all of the services altogether with like a one-time or yearly subscription fee or whatever.
So then that way it's really up to the user to maximize their value as best they can.
Elena Kostova: [00:08:24] Yeah. Uh, that's definitely that's we look at for the future. Like still we are trying to ramp up all the different products, uh, and like to increase the synergies and to create like really all in one product, uh, for this to be possible.
So be sure to provide with the best experience for the customer. But yeah, this is, I don't want to speculate, but ultimately this is how I think the things will go down. Like once we really create those really strong synergies across all different products.
Joseph: [00:08:57] Fair enough. Yeah. I mean, at the end of the day, it's, it's a, it is a value driven industry. Right? So any opportunity to give people that kind of opportunity is, is, is worth addressing at the very least. All right. So let's shift to smsbump. Now we've talked about this on the program a couple of times. In fact, it was one of the first things I talked about when I had the e-com King, like way back, like episode three, four, somewhere around there, again, not math, not strong suit.
And so we talked about it, but we haven't had somebody with the company, give us like the formal introduction for it. So I think we should do that. So tell us what SMS bump is about. And also while you're at it, also tell us a bit about how it started and like how, as much as you can really, uh, I identified, um, it's ability, like the difference between sending text messages and not sending text messages as far as, as far as you're aware, because no one person is like the, be all end, all historian on the subject.
Elena Kostova: [00:09:48] Like, uh, I just wanted to make a joke that maybe one memo wasn't deep enough, but just kidding, um, yeah. Um, so, um, It's smsbump is an sms marketing provider for Shopify and e-commerce businesses. Basically help merchants recover abandoned carts, create meaningful relationships and actually boost sales, essentially all through SMS messages. Basically how SMS marketing works is like in two different, uh, like i twto different areas.
So on one side you have the automation, those are the so-called trigger based messages may be by automations or flows. Also just more complex auto, uh, automation speaker set a lot of different rules and like, you know, create what if scenarios. And that's basically the, I would say the most ROI driven part of SMS marketing, because it's based on direct customer action.
For example, customer abandons a cart, they receive a message. They make an order, they receive a like, you know, like a thank you message or like, you know, or the confirmation. Um, so these are like the really ROI driven, uh, part of the messages. But then also we have the one of messages, which is like the most traditional, um, sms marketing.
So so-called campaigns where like you have a product launch or a sale, or you want to announce something to all of your audience or to specific group of people. And then it's like, you know, you send the simple one off message. This is, this is basically how like SMS marketing is all about. Uh, and in terms of how the company came to be.
And it's, um, how we grow and how we came to what we are now. I think in, uh, 2017, um, Mihail and Georgi, the two co-founders actually started it as a little bit of a side project, a they try to solve a particular problem where the customer is not being able to reach their customers with emails. Like they were really ineffective.
So they started like to researching, to see what other channels of communications there are. And then they came to this. Really traditional, um, maple SMS. And they just decided to start launching all the transactional messages on SMS as opposed to email. And they actually saw that a lot of people were actually open, like reading them, like clicking through them.
So we saw actually the traction there, and this is how the idea actually came to be like from just a really simple case from a one particular customer. And I think once, uh, when they actually started, uh, really seeing that the industry, like sms is really a viable channel to reach and it's really like the industry is also ready for, it was I think around 2018, when, um, you started seeing more and more, uh, more just, uh, merchants purchasing the app, using it and like seeing the interest into it.
And, um, yeah, this is how officially SMS bump was created. Uh, and yeah, fast forward to last year, went along, uh, when we got acquired and also like, I think last year was also the year of SMS. Say as a channel, like in 2019, still a lot of people were unsure what if this is a really bad viable channel or this is just like the old spam from the 2000s that the people know about.
But I think in the like last year, 2020, it was like with the COVID and everything, people realize that it's a really good channel. It's a cost-effective channel. Like the benefits of always sending messages at the same price. Because I think for me, that's the key, like, you know, with Facebook, Instagram, Google ads, they're really to reaching your customers, enriching your customer base, but the problem is holidays come and you see skyrocketing, um, But, uh, skyrocketing cost per click or cost per install, whatever you your product is.
Whereas with SMS, you have the stable, like no matter if it's black Friday or it's just normal Tuesday, you, you still pay, uh, pay the same amount for your messages. And I think that's what customers actually started to appreciate and just the higher adoption by the end customer. I just normalizing the fact that merchants are reaching and talking with their customers by SMS, um, really kind of exploded the industry.
Like we're seeing more and more competitors, uh, joining and like, um, trying to get piece of the cake. So, yeah, I think, I think that's the history of the insurance to help it.
Joseph: [00:14:36] Yeah. Uh, I, I picked up a couple of points I wanted to raise, uh, I added that. So one of them, there's a through line that I've identified over a lot of the people that I've talked to is that no medium ever truly goes out. I could be more consistent on this. I'm pretty sure I've said radio died a number of times, but I think I've also said that radio died and then was resurrected.
And I think one time I said radio was actually a Phoenix. And then there's times where I've said that radio has evolved. And what we're doing now is, is radio. I definitely see myself as a, as a radio guy. Sorry. I haven't had it really tried my radio DJ voice. Woo. Okay.
So text messaging, it doesn't have the same archaic perception that some of these other mediums had because people are sending out postcards different parallel entirely. People were making music on vinyl. And it was funny as a vinyl actually like is superior song quality, which I didn't see that one coming. With getting back to marketing. I had a John Crestani, who's a superstar marketer. And he realized that there was an opening for TV ads. And, you know, you have like generations coming up. I know don't even have TVs, right. They're just doing everything. There's watching everything on their phone. So it's, it's always, I think what happens is the perception that a particular medium dies is only because the market has expanded so drastically that the particular market share of that medium.
Some of it has diminished. People do move on to other ways of communication, but the core is still there. It's just, it becomes smaller in the grand perspective because there are other ways to message people. Now I think Facebook messaging, I guess WhatsApp is still basically texting, but you know, some people have WhatsApp on their computer, so it's, it's fun.
And to me that like, text messaging is a midway point between it's still a contemporary medium. It's obviously it's digital, but it's also not the latest of revelation in communications and media. I don't even know what the latest revelation is. I think at this point, it's just people sending tick talks to each other, whereas I want make it like 15 second video and then just send it to the front.
And then he sends them the victim to take back into having like a tech dot conversation. Uh, and I, and I just want to throw up at the, at the thought of that, not because I'm against it, but just the idea of following that would make me dizzy. So that's all well, and good. What I also noticed is when you said that the cost is consistent, that is huge because as you were saying, trying to reach out to other customers, especially during critical times in the holiday season, Facebook advertising, Google advertising, price skyrockets.
However, there is a, when a sticking point, which is that with SMS, it's remarketing. So, I don't think there is a, uh, a top of funnel. Uh, but you can correct me if I'm right. Or if I'm wrong about that, where there, I don't think that there's a way to send text messages to people who have not shown some level of interest yet.
Like they have to at least come to the website. Maybe they put something into the car and then they abandoned it. Hence the abandoned cart recovery. So am I, am I right about that or is okay, actually, here's a better way to ask the question. How early on in the funnel is, uh, is text marketing actionable?
Elena Kostova: [00:17:55] That's a really good question and,
Joseph: [00:17:57] It took me a while to get there, but I got there.
Elena Kostova: [00:18:00] Uh, and actually, as you mentioned yourself, it's really correct to say that this is remarketing channel. SMS is also a concern based channel, meaning that you can't just go on and like send messages to whoever you think of, like, you know, just some random numbers and hope for the best though, this doesn't work like this here.
It's a highly regulated industry. We also, because it's text marketing, like it's sent to your personal phone number. It's a really personal channel. Like that's why it's like, there are a lot of roles that needs to be, you know, taken care of and compliance is like a really big part of it. And sort of everyone who has started with text marketing at least once in their life heard about TCPA compliance.
Um, so no surprise here. Um, it's really. I would say it's definitely, maybe middle of the funnel. Uh, part of the, like, if, you know, if you have a phone, I'd say it's really in the middle of the funnel, just because it's a, you should have, like, you should have had already a first touch base with the brand, like, be it via ad or be viable websites.
Like of course there are lots of different ways to collect subscribers and like leverage all those different channels, but they should have reached through to your brands, uh, already for them to convert into subscribers.
Joseph: [00:19:19] And how was a text marketing? Um, by the way, I don't actually know if it's called text marketing. I just think that's like a fundamental way of saying it. Uh, how is it compared to email marketing? Because I think both of them have a lot of similarities. Um, Don't re I guess you do, but you don't. I don't, as far as my experience goes, I don't really get emails from companies that I haven't already touched base with or purchase from, or even show an interest in.
So there, there seems to be a lot in common between those two, but how have you seen the two stack up where have you seen like strengths and weaknesses and text messaging versus email marketing?
Elena Kostova: [00:19:52] Yeah, to be honest, I think they, they go, they go really well hand in hand, like other people say, okay. But I have, uh, like, you know, I have email marketing program, why do I need SMS?
And for me to just like the two channels serve very different purposes. Like, uh, SMS is really direct and like, it's, uh, those, like, you know, you have a single intent, you have a single reaction. So basically, for example, if you abandoned a cart, then you want the customer to react fast, then send them a message.
This is much faster way to approach to people like study show that SMS messages opened within the first three minutes. But at the same time, SMS is a really short media. Like this is all about being brief straight to the point. You will, you want them to do something you just said, we've been, you know, 200 words, that's it.
Whereas with email, this is where you can actually show more of your brands. So talk about your bigger purpose. You know, like even if you, for example, launching a really big collection, you want all the people to see then email is the right channel to do this like email, like, you know, it's much lengthier.
It's like you can pull the brand being, you can be inspirational there. Think it's just, people need to use those two different channels together, but also like for different purposes. Uh, as I said, like with trigger based messages where I'm definitely, maybe, maybe someone, uh, might correct me here, but for me these work much better, um, um, SMS.
But when it comes to like, you know, those big launches, like welcoming people and like talking about your bigger purpose, then definitely go for email there.
Joseph: [00:21:31] Right. And, and, and content too. Like I, if I get an email, it could be a whole newsletter. It could be a blog post that's just repurposed into an email. Whereas if I get that in a text message, I can barely read the messages sent by my mom.
I don't know how I'm going to scroll through this. So I, I'm also going to ask you something about my own personal experience with this, because I've been the recipient of, to have text marketing. And I thought this would be a great opportunity to kind of like, uh, take a look at where, like my. W what my message history is like my, my text messaging, uh, has certainly evolved from when I first used it.
So I think at the very first text messaging, it was really just like people I knew they were texting me, whereas now, um, here's what kinda messages that I get? Um, my Fido code, uh, message, uh, codes from Uber, uh, an Amber alert, uh, hope she's okay. Okay. Uh, we have a WhatsApp codes, a e-transfer, um, crystal who I haven't talked to in years.
Two years. Um, uh, this is the conservative party of Canada. Like, can you support the conservative party? I'm like, well, I haven't had looked at the platforms that I'm currently undecided. There's a whole running joke where people would like post, like somebody would get a text message from the conservative party and people would respond back.
Screw you, conservatives got them. Whereas I'm just saying, you know, what, if you could give me, just give me a second. Uh, I would just have look at it. Uh, what I wanted to do in preparation for this, as I want it to look through, what is the, like, if I start from the bottom and work my way up, where, when will I see a, uh, uh, a text message being marketed to, and I go back quite a ways here.
Um, so the first one that I have is from a long and McQuaid, uh, which here in Canada is a well-known music store. So this is a local business. That's using text messaging to, well, it's local, but they have a company, they have a bunch of chains. So they send these things out in aggregate. My experience with text messaging has changed dramatically, as I say, I used to just be like people, and I can do this one of two ways.
I can, I can be like, kind of conniving. And I can say, are these things kind of like lowering, people's perceived value of text messaging. I could do that. Cause I think that's a fair question, but I'm going to do something a little bit more, I think productive, which is ask, unless you have a fair answer to that by all means, go ahead, knock yourself out.
But I think a more fair and positive question is how can the text messaging elevate itself to the level of being messaged by my friends, being messaged by my parents and kind of like being on more of a parallel with those. Um, and the, one of the other thing I'll say too, before I let you have at it, is that like, when I get a message from my mom, I got a picture, I got the phone number it's turned into, like it says ma so it's a very personal experience and getting a message from my mom.
Right. So there, there's definitely a disparity between the feeling that I get getting messages from companies versus that. So, uh, I go ahead. Let me know what are some of the challenges you face in that sector?
Elena Kostova: [00:24:30] Okay. So if I need to paraphrase your question is when and how can SMS marketing or text marketing, get more personalized and reach to the personal level that we had with like, by chatting with friends or family.
Joseph: [00:24:45] That's great.
Elena Kostova: [00:24:48] That's a really good question. Um, Just the next great question. Um, uh, I would say is currently there are some changes happening, especially in the States that's really going to that direction. Like in general, the whole industry, I would say up until now, everyone was kind of a newbie in, uh, with SMS marketing.
It was all about sending generic copays to everyone. Like maybe sometimes like, even like using personalized things, like first names, like store names, like just like, you know, hey, we have a sale, 50% off. Here's the link, that's it. Like, this would be like the most common, like, you know, some of the most common messages that we would see, but now with, uh, also higher adoption from the customers, like they're starting to become also more picky on like, you know, what they convert on.
And now definitely personalization is a really big trend and topic around the industry. Uh, one of the, like one of the things that they're like currently changing, especially in the us market is like the, I don't know if you have heard the birth, like the ban of the surcharge codes. So people like if before you'd receive, um, like, you know, you'd see the same number, but multiple messages from multiple brands, these, uh, can no longer happen.
Basically the US providers, I think it was AT&T and T-Mobile are like strongly advising against it. Uh, so now more and more brands start to move to personalized phone numbers. Uh, like also I hope that, uh, this show is launched several weeks when this is going to be already announced, but two you're also likely working in, like it's also an industry standard that people would be able to send their contact cards to their customers.
Uh, so you know, like the first message should receive a behave welcome to our club, but also by the way, this is the one phone number saved in your phone within you can pull the picture of the brand, your brand name. And then this is also like in your personal phone number, which is a great first step to personalize it.
And then just, uh, like as next steps, it's just a matter of like good segmentation using the right shop code. So like things like using always the first name, trying to segment people based on like the purchase last. So for example, if you have three products in your store and you know, that that person bought, I don't know, like a suitcase they'll, you know, add this to your copy, say, Hey, did you like the suitcase?
By the way, we just want them to also this, you want to take a look at it. So like trying to use those like better segmentation to make also the message much more personal. I think that's like a, a lot of the original, a lot of brands are starting to go towards too. So I think it's definitely going there.
I wouldn't say that it's going to happen from potato tomorrow, but it's definitely a process that is like in a strong case.
Joseph: [00:27:39] Okay. This one might be a silly question, but I think there could actually be a, a, a nugget of, uh, a value to this, which is when you look at the major phone companies, they're the ones that are basically charging the money for users to send messages to one another, and then you get your phone plans and stuff like that.
Whereas with, um, uh, text marketing, it's part of the industry and the desire is to, um, uh, you know, convert and reconvert customers. So there's a monetary transaction there have the, have the major phone companies, uh, had any issue with the fact that these are text messages use as a means to generate revenue versus a personal, um, that personal dialogue between people who are just friends or family?
Elena Kostova: [00:28:23] Short answer, it would be like a simple answer would be no, but as I said already, be like, it's a really highly regulated industry.
So like, what they're trying to do is just to make sure that people know the vision is going to be used by brands for commercial means. So for marketing needs, like you have all those compliant texts. So like, you know, it's not like with email, if you want to set up for the email address, usually you see the text, Hey, we're gonna send you a, an like a newsletter, you know, like one sentence, that's it.
But if you'll look at like a complete, like SMS compliant brand, like you see, for example, in the checkout, they have those long texts there and they're mandatory for all the popups or keywords subscriptions, all the subscription methods. You have a really explicit wording, which is saying, Hey, You leave a number, but you're going to use it for marketing purposes.
And, uh, this is how the, yeah, basically the mobile operators try to make sure that, um, each customer is really aware of what's happening. Each customer knows that they're going to be remarketed, they're going to receive promotional messages. Um, so definitely they're okay with it, but it's, as I said, it's highly regulated.
Joseph: [00:29:34] Well, you know, uh, one thing not to get too far into the political ramifications of it, but, uh, corporations are supposed to be legally regarded as entities. They're like technically people, um, and in doing so it alleviates the ability. It takes the pressure off the people running the company, that if the company itself goes bust, that the people are not held financially liable for it.
Which again, trying to avoid my, my, my, my conniving self. The positive side to that is that it does allow people to actually conduct their business and not be so reluctant to take risks, because if they'd take a risk and it doesn't pan out, uh, the company absorbs the losses and the damages. You don't want to know that it ruined somebody's life.
We want to encourage you to take, I take risks because that's how society moves forward. But that's all that aside. I do think it's interesting that this heavy regulation is not something that it would do to a person, but even, but even if a corporation is still legally regarded as a person, anyways, it actually should be less regulated on principle.
But again, that's the political ramifications. I just thought that'd be, that was an interesting tidbit that I, I observed. Firstly, I move onto my next question. But did you have anything you wanted to add to that?
Elena Kostova: [00:30:43] Uh, no. I just wanted to say it's a really interesting way of seeing the things, because for me, um, each business, like we also as marketers and like in the industry, like for me, we are the people that should be the most responsible ones. I, the consumers, they like, no, like we should try to show them in a way, like, we need to be responsible. Like it's not about the customer having to click unsubscribe, but it's about, you're not spamming the people and like respecting their personal space. So I really do think that the company like the responsibility in the end should always fall on the company.
Joseph: [00:31:19] I, I agree with that. And I think it's the same. It is very similar with emails too, that if somebody is constantly getting emails and the overall content is just not there, uh, then they get burnt out by it. And also me personally, I got burnt out on email marketing altogether because I was getting so many emails from so many different companies that I just went on this like unsubscribes free write just on subscribed to like a bunch of companies.
Um, a quick, quick story. So there's this, uh, nerd convention called fan expo, uh, here in Canada. There's can you think it's cause like Comicon in the States and fan expo was an email marketing to me and I hit subscribe. And then they sent me another email. I think what they did is they had like several different variations of it so they can constantly do it.
And so I hit I'm subscribed again. Another week goes by a different find expo like FedEx one North or FedEx, but after dark, they, they, they sent me an email too. So by the fifth one, I contacted them and say, please, for God's sake, stop sending me these emails. I can only unsubscribe so many times that actually worked.
So, so there are limits to our consumer patients. And I think a lot of that really is the company it's company. Didn't understand that if somebody, I would say is, let's just say they purchased like a high ticket item, like jewelry. I don't think they're going to go get jewelry every day. Whereas if somebody is, um, I dunno, it's like a Walmart or it's like a big box retailer.
There's incentive to go there maybe every week, because there's always something different to pick up. Maybe the spatch that broke or whatever. I guess some people do go to big box retail to get the jewelry. That's not neither here nor there.
So my next question is about communicating back from the customer side is have companies had customers like respond to these text messages? Uh, and if so, how are they dealt with are, do you have somebody, is there like a software where they can respond to them sorta like Intercom where they can just answer text messages back?
Or is it always, this is mostly a one-way street. Just how do, how does a dialogue go both ways?
Elena Kostova: [00:33:26] So, uh, I said a smart thing is a two way channel. I mean, that wants to send out the message to customers. Of course they can write you back. That's a, like it happens a lot of times. And actually we just, uh, we're analyzing the data.
We realized that, uh, in 2020, compared to 2019, uh, the replies from customers actually increased, uh, with four times, which is, I would say it's a quite big of an increase. Um, it was really interesting to see that, you know, more and more, uh, customers started to perceive this as a really viable two way, way, uh, channel for communication and how it works in different ways.
So in one way, you'll receive this inside those software. Like you have a separate menu, which is called chats, and then they receive your replies, you see your full, full customer profile. So, you know, whom you actually like, you know, chatting with and basically versus if a chat, just the communication is, uh, you know, getting the end of the day, like you still chat, but like the customer receives, this is a text message.
But also, I want to, what customers can do, what merchants can do is just to connect it with, let's say gorgeous, uh, Zen desk, um, or like all those, uh, customer support platforms and just, you know, feed all those messages to they're like to the system, their, their support agents can simply reply.
They're like no things back. And the great thing is, although it's, it's still reported and everything works so gorgeous, the people won't receive an e-mail, but they will receive the text message. So like for the customer, you have a, you know, single point of entry or single, single point of communication with the brand before the brand.
The great thing is they don't need to switch from platform to platform. They can do everything in this one, uh, help desk, which is I think it's the optimal experience for everyone, uh, for our audience.
Joseph: [00:35:25] Um, a lot of our audience are people like me who are, well, actually I should, I wouldn't want to.
Uh, so many buddies like, meaning that's not doing very many people, very many favors, but similar to me in that they are entering e-commerce. Um, I have my, I have my own store. Um, I just sorted out like who my supplier is going to be starting to get my product working. Uh, I got to sort out advertising.
There was a lot to deal with. So for, for people in just like their starting point, um, when can they integrate it? I do know that there's a free service to start and you just pay for the messages you send. Um, so when would you recommend that people onboard, uh, this, uh, this product?
Elena Kostova: [00:36:03] Well, um, I don't personally have numbers, so those have to be taught like when it makes sense for 'em to integrate or like to know to jump on that, like a, we'll say a pay plan where you can, for example, leverage all the integrations of the, you know, more advanced features is when you start seeing, like making money out of it, like a market subscription is like playing to dollars.
If you see that you're making thousands. It's a very small investment to make, to make. I think it's also about how, what platforms you're currently using. So for example, if you're using, you know, a lot of like you have review system, you have your loyalty system, you have your email system and you want to connect them all together.
So if your goal is to be really coherent in your marketing and you want to use SMS for a lot of the messages you're sending across the different platforms, then it makes sense to connect, connect them all together. But if you're just starting up, like, you know, you don't, you have, let's say less than hundred subscribers.
You're still figuring things out. You're still also figuring your product offering because it now in the beginning, it's also about finding the right product for your business. Uh, then I would really say that like start with the free, like, see how it goes, figure out what automations work for you. And once you feel comfortable with the app and with SMS marketing, then it's.
Then it's the right time to upgrade, like in order to start using flows, to start integrating, to open up the chat. So all those things are, I feel, I feel it also worked for merchant they happen naturally. Like it just stopped like understanding the platform because I think in the beginning, it just like everything is do like, there's so many things to, you know, to take in and you don't want to like overwhelm the, you don't want to overwhelm yourself.
Like, I think it's for merchants is good to give themselves time to just like explore and like test different things and just see what works best for them.
Joseph: [00:38:05] Right. And it comes down to the very simple premise is sell a product. Um, or even more simply than that solve a problem for somebody. And I, and I think, and this has happened to me too.
It's as you say, things can be overwhelming because there are so many, uh, products and services and offers and, and, and we, I, myself, you know, I, I get a lot of advice from a lot of people. Um, so, uh, you know, a lot of that all comes together and I guess it is also important for people to understand too, is this a marketing channel that I feel is right for my brand?
Um, I think for the most part it's pretty solid. Like I think for the most companies can use them in some way, if, um, if the conservative party Canada can use it, if long and the quake and use it for the record, people, I'm not like a anti-conservative or anything like that. Um, uh, my voting record is very sporadic, but there are obviously a lot of different organizations and a lot of different people use it.
So I, I definitely think it's worth thinking about how can I use it in a way to augment the rest of my marketing strategy, because then you don't want to integrate emails. You want to integrate affiliate and all of that. Um, so that's all really well and good. So I think the last thing that I, well, there might be like a couple of other things, but the last thing that I want to know is also the, just where like manual stops and automatic starts.
Cause I think some of the automation is like, as you were saying earlier, if somebody puts a product into their cart and then they stopped, I'm not like hunched over my computer, like a Hawk waiting for them to do that. That's an automation. So yeah. Can you just let us know about some of the other automations that we can use?
Elena Kostova: [00:39:41] Yeah, of course. By the way, I want us even a little black tool. Change your words, because it said, uh, automation stops, uh, like manual stops and automation starts out with sms marketing it's the other way around, like what, uh, what most of the people do. It just like, you know, settle the compliance. There is some automation zone with the bits that I can see what's happening and only then they'll feel like, okay, let's send the campaign.
Let's make it to this. The automations part is, I think it's pretty, self-explanatory basically what I think it's like also like an industry standard is like, basically you have those standard go to automation. So I would say like the winback flow or like went back automation is depending on how you like to do your marketing, uh, the browse abandonment, um, And the up sell flaws are the three, I would say most frequently used automations and how it works is usually we have preset texts.
We have the preset triggers and everything. You just need to activate it. If you feel, if you feel that you want to personalize it in that your own brand to it, your own personal voice, then of course you can just edit the text, but like once you're activated, the messages are going to start automatically triggering and I can send you out to the customers once they kind of looked upon that trigger.
And, um, yeah, just like as long as you have money in it, then subscribers. It'll just run that's uh, that's. That's how it, how it works. Um, but what I would like to advice also, people is to, um, like once they're starting, depending on your location. So I think in the States and in Canada as well, like customers are really used to receive text messages and marketing related messages.
Uh they're like first go with those three ones. But for example, when Europe in Australia where people are, um, still like getting used. Uh, for this being, uh, for, as being a generic marketing channel, I would say try to mix up, uh, the marketing and transactional messages. So for example, you know, let the first message from your, be like a confirmation about their purchase.
Like, you know, like something with tracking numbers, it's really easy to track straight from their phones. Uh, maybe add an abandoned cart, let some time flow, and then maybe in the month add an additional automation. So don't overwhelm people all the class with activating 10 automations at the time, I feel that especially in more novice markets, it can scare people off.
So like try to be mindful and like, you know, do it step by step.
Joseph: [00:42:23] Yeah. As, as I'm hearing this. And I'm just thinking about how I would use this. I think. My strategy would be to start with the very, very end of the funnel, because at that point, my assumption is that the customer has moved down the funnel quite a bit, just on my own.
And so it's right, right. At the very end, they're just about to convert and then they don't do it. And that might be for me, I can say that would be like the first place to use it because I've put so much work into getting the customer to that point to lose him at that moment would be the time where, okay.
Was a 99 cents one word one more chance. Okay. No, that makes sense. So that's great. Uh, so I think, I think our audience has a, has a lot to, to, to ponder over. Um, but while I've still got you here, I usually also want to hear more about like how you, like, you know, you, you got yourself. And what's the, maybe it sound like it was like a traveling how'd you, how'd you get yourself into this?
Uh, so what was your, what was your work background like and how did, uh, e-commerce make its way into your worldview?
Elena Kostova: [00:43:20] Actually, I had like, I'd say two turning moments in the e-commerce. So for us, like in the university, we were working with a company called beckham. It's a big, uh, dutch retailer, and we had to work.
We had the project to work on their website to help him convert, like optimize the conversion rates because they were like seeing a lot of people go there, but not end up making the purchase. But as part of that project, we actually were invited into their distribution center where I actually get to see how much more there is to e-commerce because you know, like we, as an end consumer, you think, okay, they have this big space, this initials or whatever.
And now that's the end of the story. But, uh, when, like when, once we arrived to the distribution center, realizing that like, everything was, uh, automate it's like you had the robots, like picking the different items, everything was automatic. You started like almost, there were almost no humans. And I realized how, how much more there is to e-commerce like, it's a really innovative industry, like creates the best of the technology, the it, the marketing.
And also because e-commerce is, you know, ever changing, like, because of consumerism, like whatever works today, won't work tomorrow. So you see that it's like, for me, it's one of the most industries that you can work in. Like every day there's something new. And this is how my interest in e-commerce sparkles.
And about like SMS bump and like getting herself into also the SMS marketing niche as a marketer. I was, when, when I heard that there was an opening for the position, I was really curious because like in the university even talk about SMS as a marketing channel. It's like, you know, it's like something like old people texts, but I could, the youngster you'd just like use WhatsApp, Viber, like, uh, Facebook messenger, whatever.
Joseph: [00:45:09] I don't even hear it. I don't even know what viber is. I've never heard that.
Elena Kostova: [00:45:14] Europe. It's a, by the way, for me from the messaging apps, they're one of the most innovative plans. They were the first book app there. They have promotions like in that, like, I think after we chat, I think it was called the Chinese platform.
Uh, this is the second most innovative communications platform, uh, in terms of no innovations in bringing all the tools into one. But, uh, what I wanted to say is like, for me, a sentence was like, okay, even didn't even believe that can be effective. And once I got into the company and seeing the great results that people actually get with a sentence, I was like, amazed.
I was, for me, it was like a, um, a little bit of fresh air because like two years ago, it's like, you always talk about Facebook, we'll go ads. I can all those paid ad channels. And, um, I really liked it. And also what I like to say is that what they personally really enjoy it is because it's, um, it's an old channel and now it's kind of being brought back and what they like, and I'm sure also all the competitors in the industry get to enjoy is that we help a lot of merchants.
We have to educate a lot of merchants on how to, uh, do SMS marketing rights. And for me, this is actually what really drives me and motivates me because no, like we are not in those established industries, like with email marketing, like everything you know on email marketing is already greet them.
Now everyone knows the basic rules of email marketing. People still get to it. But like, you know, it's like basically there isn't that much new things there awareness with SMS and just like now being in the growing phase. And it's like really motivational to, uh, yeah, help merchants and they unveil this coffee can work for them.
Joseph: [00:47:07] Me. I've always been, uh, a big proponent of format. So a couple of examples of this, um, one of the things that I was drawn to on Twitter is that Twitter imposed a character limit. And then they increased the character limit. I think it was like 250 now or something along those lines. And I noticed that my interest changed quite a bit because when I think the limited back in the day, it was like 124 characters that compelled the user to adopt a certain writing style.
It made us think more about the value of each word, um, because we would still have to provide a complete thought, but those thoughts had to be, um, well-constructed and each word really had to have more value to it. Um, it's still true with twice the character count, but like it's tangibly less true because now there was more words to use.
Um, Facebook is another example. Initially for me, the format of Facebook to me just seemed like, like a living yearbook, where it would be a way to commemorate memories. It would be a way to post photos and kind of like reminisce about things happening in the past. Um, this is me like signing up for it in high school.
And so when I was sent messages to people, there was always that era of, you know, it was great to doing this thing with you on this day. Uh, hopefully we get to do something like that in the future. Cause there was no expectation that people would check their messages from our weeks could be months and over time the format of Facebook changed and now it's everything right?
Like now I think, I think Facebook has, has like therapy. Like people can like go to counseling sessions. That was a joke, but I wouldn't be surprised if somewhere down the line they do that. What I noticed with text messaging is that the format has been consistent the entire time. It is just sending. Text messages.
Now, granted you can send images, uh, that cost data. So, okay. There's a, there's a slight variance to it, but even so text messaging is also a self-limiting format because if people's patients, I I'm only gonna rate so much, uh, uh, uh, content, like sometimes when my friends and I like will like, was there having lengthy their conversations, like I'm okay.
You know what? I'm going to go do other things first and I'll come back to it. I would say actually, like one of the biggest changes in text messaging or messaging in general are those checkmarks that let the other person know that they read the message. Cause once I've communicated that I've read the message.
Now, all of a sudden I'm, it's changed my behavior now. I'm like, okay, well now he knows. And if he knows that, I know that I know that he knows and I've got to send this message. So, uh, let me, let, let me pose this to you in a question. This is a very broad kind of like opinion based. So, uh, you don't need to like, uh, feel pressure to be the authority on this, but is there anything to the format of text messaging that you'd like to see change in the future? Or do you feel like text messaging is like. It's good to go. Nothing. We don't really need to fix anything.
Elena Kostova: [00:49:43] Uh, that's a good question. Uh, for disclaimer what I'm going to say, it's my personal opinion. The formats, like seeing what's happening now in the industry. I think the form of smooth also like evolve, I would say a little bit and like have a little bit more of a color in terms of, of characters, but also seeing how youngsters communicate, like things like clubhouse popping up and ticked up. As you mentioned, I think it would start allowing, uh, and being much, much more flexible in terms of audio, content and video. Um, this is what they, I assume will happen just because it's, uh, it's, there is already a change in the way we communicate.
Like you see. Like people are now so lazy to type that they prefer to just send voice messages. It's already like the changing the behaviors over here. I think it's a matter of time of, um, SMS also starting to, starting to catch up on all those changes.
Joseph: [00:50:44] It was a little Orwellian first time I saw one of my friends like talk out a text message, like capital O K we space will space, get space to space, pizzas, period, smiley face sent.
I go. Okay. All right.
Elena Kostova: [00:51:02] Also, what's really interesting. When a couple of years I used to like do the semester abroad in Spain. There people almost never text, like, you'd see people walking on the street and they, everyone is like either like, you know, type, like talking down or like listening really loud, their own messages.
For me, it was really funny because, uh, at that time I used to be like, I lived in Germany where like, people, you know, like normally texting to each other, it's like, it's a normal thing. But seeing like, it was everywhere. Like every second person, it was like complete shock. Like how much, uh, how different, the way of communication can be in third distance. Yeah.
Joseph: [00:51:43] Yeah. It is. It's also ironic too that like, people are like talking out messages to each other and like, man, this is great. I can just talk into my phone and then you can talk back and send a message to each other. Go, why didn't they think about this before? I mean, well, you know, that's. It's a phone call.
Elena Kostova: [00:51:59] I think it's about also personal time, just because like this, this way of communication allows it to, um, listen to it at your own time. Like even I, when it's speaking friends, I feel a lot of, it's really fast to make a phone call because it's like a true time dedication, and now I can send out a message and maybe three hours later, it's like, okay, let's listen to what they said.
Maybe it's there. Maybe it's during the week. I think that's the, this is where the voice, um, voice messages, extra shine.
Joseph: [00:52:29] Yeah. You know, I I've had, I've had a sales job and it was like largely like phone calls and I was, um, selling, uh, luxury watches to people who can afford them. So we ha we were more compelled to call because it was more of the personal touch, but it was also a lot more panic inducing because we call these people and like, ego comes through a lot more vocally than it does, uh, audibly.
I haven't told this story in a while, but there was one person who was like expecting his watch to be delivered on a certain day and it didn't show up. So he calls and, and, and it's like, I understand that I could order a pizza and I, and they'll give me a GPS tracking and I can see where my pizza is, but I don't know where my watch is.
Well guess I'm going to be a prisoner in my own home. Mike, you know what? That was pretty funny. I'm actually glad that I got to, I got to hear that when, as opposed to like that coming through in text messaging. So I will say, you know, listening to some of your opinion on this. I, I think that some companies haven't worked in two words is you see a lot of aggregation and say like, um, in the email sector with like Google will allow people to connect other emails together.
I have like 12 email addresses from all the different ventures and, you know, uh, male websites that I run outside of the beautify of like two or three, like main email addresses and to, to aggregate all of those into one spot is convenient and it saves a lot of time. And that is one thing I would like to see is like, uh, like a full on, um, communications aggregator that tries to aggregate everything.
Um, so it tries to aggregate tech talks. It tries to aggregate text messages does aggregate aggregate emails. And so I would have this one-stop shop where I would check everything. Okay. Now look at a tech doc. Next thing. Read a text message. Yeah, it does like shift my gears in my brain a little bit, but the variety yeah.
Of that, I think it would be, I think there's a lot of potential in that. So, um, for those of you, uh, took a, a 1% finder's fee on that, but, uh, feel free to take the idea and run.
Elena Kostova: [00:54:28] I do mention that because the first, I think, uh, like starting a, of SMS bump, this was actually my thing. Like, I was sure that at some point we're going to have a last stop step one platform where you can take all the different social medias, all the messages, like all the pictures you want to like, but it's all going to be one platform that's right now, like even with three platforms.
And sometimes I'm like, if, you know, if it was the one place where everything was feeded, I'll prefer that even more. And I definitely do agree with you. It's, uh, it's equals gonna, you know, be faster than us in developing it, but I also definitely see it.
Joseph: [00:55:05] Yeah. I mean, there, there is one downside to it, which is a lot of these platforms do rely on advertising.
And so they can't advertise for this other platform. I can see there being an issue, but. You know, I, I w w w we just want to make things more efficient and less efficient, uh, especially here. Uh, I don't know what the tax rate is, uh, is over where you are. Cause I don't actually know where you are, but the tax rate over here in Canada is a lot of money and I'm like, Oh gosh, I gotta work.
So I can pay for other people to have Charles and CBC. All right. That got, I got way too political. So, um, the last thing I'm curious about is I don't really get to, well, I, when I joined the industry at large courtesy of a D beautify firm, which I am eternally grateful, it was during lockdown. So I haven't had a chance to like, be, uh, go physically do anything.
Now that I assume that they're gonna send me to conventions afterwards, I feel like I'd have to pay for my own ticket, but I would love to hear about some of the in-person experiences that you've had. Like, what are some of like the standout conventions that, um, it helps shape the, your, your view of the industry at large?
Elena Kostova: [00:56:05] Yeah. So, um, to be honest, I'm also not the expert in, uh, conventions. I've been to maybe three, uh, also the mine, but it's like, um, two of them were really different. So the first, the very first one that they went to was the affiliate world in Asia. I think it was in Thailand if I'm not mistaken. And there, it was certainly different, like really different than what I imagined.
It, it plus mostly about, uh, you know, all affiliate marketing, like UT a lot of drop shippers, a lot of agency, a lot of those traffic driving sites. And I'm not pretty sure about the right, uh, wording allotted, but for me, what's really interesting is, um, how male first, it was like, there were almost no women in the industry.
I was like, Well, that's what's happening. I was really shocked. Like for me it was like a, really something of a realization that like, you know, all the affilates and everything, it's like kind of main male all in business. I'm not saying that everyone has the expectations of men being what they were women being with.
It was just like, I think it's like also something that maybe this, of course, naturally I, for me, this was like the first impression, but what they really lost even there is like, everyone was just like curious and like super friendly. I think it's like we get to be in one of the most friendly industries that I ever be like, even if you're a competitor or someone who just like.
Just talk and like share different deals and like, not really, like, the market is so big that you realize that everyone has their own news. Everyone specializes in something. And like, there's always a reason why customers choose you or other customers chose the competitor. So like big everyone realizes it.
No one is like, you know, trying to play 30. And so some things like that and the other commercial I really enjoyed was excellent just before the lockdown. Uh, it was for the Shopify pursuit event in, um, I'm certain, uh, where I actually got to experience the Shopify ecosystem, like much closer and. Um, There I also, like, I just loved it. I was thinking like, okay, I am really in the most friendly and innovative industry, I could be like, everyone looks talk to everyone, even though things like ego or position or, you know, how big your business is not curious. Like, if you're just like a two people startup or a huge company working with mid market customers, like everyone just like talk to everyone is super friendly.
You also don't have those in all those. I call it being doing events where everyone is dressed in suits and ties. Like everyone is just like really kid and like down to earth. I, I loved it. It's a, it was, um, it's a great industry to work in. So after, after COVID definitely you should, uh, try some of the conventions.
Joseph: [00:59:04] I, I really would. Uh, I'd be happy to tell you, go to, and I will say too, is that like a lot of my like technical concerns with like, if the power went out or something like that? A lot of that was just based on like, you know, a lot of people have really valuable time and I don't want to cost them time.
And then, uh, the, I remember which episode it was too, it was a, the ecom, a wizard, uh, Otis Coleman, uh, power goes out like 10 minutes into the episode. Uh, I'm like desperately trying to like get in touch with them, let them know I'm coming back. I come back on and he was like, so chill about it. And I think the reasoning is that like, this is, as you say, it's one of the most, if not the most, um, innovative industries and it's constantly at the cutting edge of the world, I don't, I don't know how to better characterize it and that incurs a lot of risk.
And so I think there's a lot of empathy. Like a lot of people understand that there was a lot of failure and there has been a lot of mistakes. I think if you and not to draw another, like. Uh, castigate any particular other industry, but because a lot of other industries are already formalized when people enter into it.
Um, a lot of the work is done for them, so they don't have to do as much like personal initiative. So the, the loss isn't quite as, as noticeable, you'll find that like the more risks there are, the more people will develop empathy and want to help other people succeed because everybody wants to be a part of a better industry.
Elena Kostova: [01:00:30] Exactly. Exactly. And yeah, I think that's, I will tell you must have stated better. It's a really good example also with like, what you said with artists is just like, people are really empathetic and I can just genuinely want to help you. Like it's their experience. And like, you know, they're really open to also feedback and all those things.
It's, uh, it's really nice.
Joseph: [01:00:52] That one of the best ways to help yourself is to help others. It'll it'll come back to you in the long run. I think that's everything. Um, certainly everything that I had to, uh, uh, to go through, for sure. Um, so I think at this point, I'm just going to say thank you so much for your time.
And, um, if you haven't, usually what I'd like to do is if you have any parting advice or wisdom or anything just general, like to share with people, um, especially cause a lot of our audience are people who are just waiting for that one little nugget of inspiration to like. Uh, to get into it. Um, anything along those lines feel free to share and then let the, uh, let the audience know, I guess, two things in this case, if they, if you're a producer of any content, uh, how maybe they can check out some of what you do and then also how to get involved or, uh, even sign up with a SMS bump.
Elena Kostova: [01:01:41] So last piece of advice is start with this. I, uh, I would always advise people to just be bold and test things out there is not enough. Like if close to literally nothing like if SMS marketing, uh, or if everything in your life, just like, give it a try, see if it works. If it, um, If it doesn't, well, it tells more about other channels to reach your customers.
But if it does just like, you know, uh, there, there are enough resources out there to help, you know, to help you be an expert in that there are a lot of great people talking about SMS marketing about in general marketing that can help with her to don't be scared to try it out. It's it costs nothing. It takes less than five minutes to set up your marketing, uh, properly.
So it's, um, just give it a try. There is no wrong, just don't spam people. That's my, you know, and like throw notice, uh, try not to spam people, be mindful of their personal space. Uh, and in terms of like the content we're producing and like how to reach us. It can reach it. Uh, if you have some questions about SMS marketing or whatever, you can always reach out directly to me and then SMS bump.com, uh, but also, uh, check out our YouTube channel.
We are really trying to constantly, uh, they get up with all the webinars, a lot of, uh, talks and like short, really obvious on how to use SMS marketing thought to use SMS bump as well. So I think that would be the most efficient way to learn more about those and what you do.
Joseph: [01:03:20] Well, audience you'll notice that I've gotten to the habit of saying audience now because of listeners, because there were like six episodes into our new video format.
Um, so as always, I thank you for your time and your engagement. Uh, if you want to engage further, you know what to do, so I trust your discernment and that's everything, uh, take care and we will check in soon.
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