icon-folder-black Agencies Digital Marketing

Andrew Maff - Bluetuskr, Distinctive Marketing In Ecommerce

icon-calendar 2021-11-11 | icon-microphone 1h 1m 26s Listening Time | icon-user Joseph Ianni

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I can see a large concern around systemizing and automating key aspects of business and our life for that matter, leaving one with the sinking feeling their individual needs aren't being met or even addressed. What stuck out to me with my conversation with Andrew Maff of Bluetuskr is that every customer, every business is unique and thus Bluetuskr keeps that approach in mind in their business. There's a great need for systems and structures but if we lose sight of the individual needs, we lose everything.

Andrew is the Founder of BlueTuskr, a full-service marketing company for e-commerce sellers. With 15 years of experience, he has proved himself to be a leader in the field. His entrepreneurial knowledge and success allow him to excel in his industry as well as helping others grow theirs. His knowledge in branding, social media, SEO, web design, graphic design, email marketing, and more, providing exceptional results consistently.




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[00:00:00] Andrew Maff: The one thing I always stand by though, is that every product, every category, every business owner is completely different. So no matter which way you approach it, sometimes it may be perfect for the product line, but the business owner, because of the situation they're in, it actually doesn't work. So it's just a hurdle that we kind of have to figure out like, okay, what's going to work here.

[00:00:27] Joseph: I can see a large concern around systemizing and automating key aspects of our business and our life for that matter, leaving one with a sinking feeling their individual needs aren't being met or even addressed. What stuck out to me in my conversation with Andrew Maff of Blue Tuskr is that every customer, every business is unique and thus Blue Tuskr keeps that approach in mind and their business. There is a great need for systems and structures, but if we lose sight of the individual and their needs, we lose sight of that and we lose everything. 

Andrew Maff. It is good to have here in Ecomonis. How you doing today? How you feeling? Doing pretty good. How about yourself? Not too bad. Uh, you, you caught me on a, on a Wednesday and I'm on the Western hemisphere and pretty much everybody else in the company is on the other side.

So when meetings are organized, I have to sometimes draw the, the short end of the straw. So, um, Wednesdays for me, or my loopy is day. Cause it's slightly the longest I have to get up. Like, do I want to take a nap for three hours? And then start my day. It was an awful idea. My, my left arm actually went numb cause I was in a bed in a bad spot.

So today's my fun day of the week. Yeah. 

[00:01:30] Andrew Maff: Awesome. I'm glad I caught you on the fun day. I'd hate to catch you on another day. It'd be a horrible interview. 

[00:01:34] Joseph: Yeah, you don't want, you don't want to find me a Thursday between six o'clock and 7:20 PM. It's, it's great to have you here. And it's always a blast to be able to, um, have some time to look through, you know, what it is that you're up to, which of course I will ask you because that's how I, how I roll.

Um, but what's great is as I, you know, meet more people and I do more study on what people do. My, my view of the e-commerce industry expands as well. And, and frankly, I don't know. I feel like I'm never going to really see the end point of it because, uh, you know, every, every week I get to meet somebody new and I get to see how much of a difference each person gets to make.

So I'm glad to have you here to have your contribution to the big picture. With that, tell us what you do and what you're up to these days. 

[00:02:17] Andrew Maff: I'm the Founder and CEO of Blue Tuskr. We are a full service digital marketing companies specifically for e-commerce. Uh, our specialty, I guess you would say is essentially helping sellers create kind of more of an omni-channel experience.

So instead of solely dedicating to your own Shopify store or solely dedicated to Amazon, we help them across the board. So Amazon, Shopify, of course, but then Walmart, eBay, Wayfair, chewy, anywhere we can pretty much get them. 

[00:02:45] Joseph: And so I imagine that people they'll reach out to you and maybe they'll have a vision for, they want like services three through six, um, uh, or, and it's like, okay, well, here's why you might want to consider, you know, one through two and then a seven through nine.

So I do people come to you with that selectivity and is in the interest of it being, uh omni-channel. Is it more like once I'm working with you, I'm having the full experience? 

[00:03:11] Andrew Maff: I wish I had like an actual statistic on this, but I would probably, I'm just going to pull it out of my head, but I'm going to guess 80% of the time someone comes to us saying, I need help with this service or something like that.

And we look at what they're doing and we go, no, you don't, you don't want to do that. And we have to help them with something else because a lot of, a lot of sellers, like if they're, let's say they're solely on Amazon, and then they're looking to venture often to create an own shop by store. You know, they just throw up a Shopify store and say, Hey, I need you to like post some stuff on social media for me.

And let me know like how sales are next week. And like, that's, that's not going to happen. And too many sellers, I also find like, we'll end up like creating their own site and then just starting something. When in reality, like they never put enough effort into focusing on their own website. You start doing paid ads, you start doing social, you start doing all these extra things, but you're driving traffic to a site that just looks like crap, and now you can't get it to convert.

Now it's horrible. So it's, it's kind of one of those things of like, we, we try to really focus on doing what's best, what we think is best for their business and just kind of advising as to why we think that way. And then, you know, we'll, we'll discuss like, why did you want to go that route? Is there something, you know, we don't know about, cause there's always something going on in the backend, but typically we find that what they were looking for is not actually what they needed. 

[00:04:27] Joseph: So the question that I have chambered is like the, you know, the origin of, of blue tuskr. Um, so, so bear that in mind that one's, uh, on deck, um, I'm, I'm fascinated by this because what I imagine is you would need to have, uh, prior examples or case studies or examples of the, the strategy that you're recommending to somebody and, you know, here's, here's what we did.

Here's, here's why it worked. Um, because I guess convincing somebody to course correct in, in what could be a dramatic fashion might be pretty hard to convince, even in spite of your credentials. 

[00:04:58] Andrew Maff: Yeah. Um, so prior to blue tuskr, so we'll obviously we'll get new origin eventually, but like prior to blue tuskr I was actually at another agency, we solely focused on e-commerce sellers there.

And I exited from that one. So having, I do have past experience, we have case studies now with blue tuskr as well of, you know, this is what we did and this is why we suggested it for them. The one thing I always stand by though, is that every product, every category, every business owner is completely different.

So no matter which way you approach it, sometimes it may be perfect for the product line, but the business owner, because of the situation they're in, it actually doesn't work. So it's just a hurdle that we kind of have to figure out. I was like, okay, what's going to work. So it always comes down to it's situational.

It's always case by case of like, you know, what's going to work for this situation. The days of like templating the approach to anything just, it just doesn't work. There's nothing there that works nine times out of 10, that stuff breaks. So we try to really kind of get to know, not only just the product line in the business, but also the owner and like the situation they're in so that we can help them kind of navigate like, okay, we know what you want.

And we know what we believe is going to work. So how do we find like that happy medium of, okay. Let's test here before we jump into doing 10 other things. 

[00:06:15] Joseph: And one thing I know is that you've been in digital marketing, uh, for, for good long a while now, uh, I believe to 2009, as far as your, your LinkedIn profile indicates what's, uh, what's fascinating is that, you know, the, the, the template structure it has, has fallen to the wayside.

It sounds to me like a lot of that just comes from the quantum expansive nature and the constant, rapid change of the e-commerce and the app and advertising. I mean, even one time, I guess, like, uh, two months ago, um, Christian Lovrecich, I was coming on prepared to talk about X and then he, he mentioned the, you know, the Facebook iOS, a 14 update.

And even that I think is out of date, but this point, I think it's not like iOS 15 updates. So even in the course of like the 30 minutes I take to prepare for an interview and an hour later, the stuff, stuff is already changing. So like, I've got to ask about, you know, the, the challenges of like, uh, staying on top of these changes and being able to not only pivot for the good of your own agency, but also, you know, what happens when you have to reach out to each individual client and tell them, look, this is something important.

You guys got to keep this in mind. Here's what we know so far. 

[00:07:20] Andrew Maff: Yeah. So like, there's, there's two different reasons. We kind of try to template a little bit. Yeah. Also steer clear from like over processing something. So like, we're, I'm a big fan of project management systems. We use Asana, eternally, they're all kind of the same.

But basically what we did is we've created for every single thing that we've ever done. So whether it's something as basic as on page SEO or something, a little more complicated, like influencer marketing when you're dealing with budget, stuff like that. But we basically created like a template project in our system that every time we learn something new, so, you know, you, you prepped right before this, by the time we get off this, I'm going to go great.

Google released an update. And so what I'll have to do is I'll go in and I'll be able to adjust it in the template. So the next time I have to do that, I know to tackle that issue. And then we just create one, uh, like one-off task to go through pre-existing clients and make sure that we're tackling all of those things as well.

But at the same time, we also have to, for things that require more creative thinking or more strategy. So if we're talking like social media. Yeah. There's a templated approach to how we do stuff internally and then how we test certain things. But outside of that, like creative and design and all of that extra stuff that we're creating, none of that stuff, you can't template that, that stuff you have to, you have to make specifically for someone.

So even with specific businesses, I always say like, you should have some kind of operational procedure, like some kind of SOP in place that you follow, but they should be live. They should be updated every time you learn something new has changed. 

[00:08:50] Joseph: Right. Yeah. And, and, um, I mean, that's a, I get too far into my company does as well, but being a freelancer prior to, um, uh, joining Debutify, just, you know, having my own, my own, my own run of things, um, I've really seen the value now of standard operating procedures and they don't stay one way for very long, but they give people a framework to catch up as much as possible.

[00:09:12] Andrew Maff: Exactly. Like we, for a long time, I would actually create just SOPs and like a Google doc or something like that. But then we would end up basically replicating it in our project management system. And it got to a point where I was like, why do we even have these Google docs? Because stuff changes so frequently.

Like the second, you know, Instagram just decided that they want to cater more towards video. So now it's kind of like, okay, so like, why are we even creating images anymore? Like we have to adjust that stuff where the iOS changed, like, okay, do we need to be testing Facebook ads differently? Basically like all that stuff, you can put it in place and it's great.

But at the same time, you have to easily be able to adjust because putting five different documents together for basically the same process is kind of dumb. 

[00:09:52] Joseph: Yeah. I'm still holding onto the chamber, but there's so much that's cascading from this. And this is kinda my, my, my interviewing style. I'm a big fan of cascading.

I'm going to give you, I guess, a specific, uh, example here. So Instagram recognizes that they're moving more into video and I noticed that myself, I'm seeing reels. Now I'm seeing stories. Uh IGTV and you know, oftentimes I would, I would go on it and that would leave. And I'm like, I didn't look at a single.

I looked at a series of images moving at like 20 frames per second. I didn't see a photo. So I, the one hand I can see this being, um, you know, a foot challenge of format, but I think I can also see it being an opportunity, especially to repurpose or be able to adjust prior material and now be able to use it onto a platform that prior to it wasn't really a good fit for, um, but asterisk, I can also see there being specific problems with say, like taking a Facebook video and converting it onto Instagram.

[00:10:49] Andrew Maff: Yeah. So funny enough, I actually had this conversation earlier today, so there's, if you're just posting, posting as a regular video on Facebook, probably like a one by one size give or take can still work well on Instagram, if you're just doing it as a regular post, or if you're doing a story on Instagram, you can just tell your Instagram now to just share that story over to Facebook stories.

So like you're kind of hitting both sides, but if you're creating something specifically for Instagram versus Facebook, so obviously Instagram for doing a post, you only have. Uh, on Facebook, you can kind of just do as much time as you want, but you know, now that it's catering a lot more towards video, like it's not that difficult, there's so many different software programs out there now that you could just take an image and then like give them the files and they'll make it like a GIF and it will do whatever it needs to do.

Um, so, you know, there's, there's ways to make things more animated and to make them move more. And then there's a ton of other platforms out there, especially for e-commerce sellers. Whereas like we've started looking into, I think it's called bilio. BILIO, I think. And it's basically like for like 40 bucks, you can send like a influencer of your product and then they'll do a quick, like 10, second, 15, second video for you.

But for those sellers who don't have, like, you know, the capability of doing a video or who just don't want to be on film, which we come across a lot, they're like, this is great because I don't want to do it. And it comes off a little bit more like, Hey, all of these people are using our product. When in reality you paid an influencer, you know?

[00:12:14] Joseph: Yeah. I just tried, I just tried to look it up. Um, it, uh, the first hit, it was, uh, I think a province in France. So I'm gonna, I'm not gonna start digging into that. That, that, ain't it. All right. So while we check this out, I'm ready to ask the, the origin question. So there's a couple of, you know, economics, traditional questions that, uh, if I, if I can't ask them, I will, and this is one of them.

So what was the, um, uh, origin point of blue tuskr and, um, at the time of its formation, what problems were you identifying in specific that you wanted to solve? 

[00:12:44] Andrew Maff: So the origin of blue tuskr, that's always a weird question. So I've been in the agency business, um, for, I think, eight years now, this is technically like the fourth agency I've owned.

This is the first one that it's just myself and I don't have a partner. The last one, uh, at a partner, we had the agency for about two and a half years. We ended up selling it to a public company in September of 2019, but that was solely based on e-commerce sellers. And that was, you know, I had a partner, we had decisions about what was, what was being done and what we needed to do.

And, you know, we kind of had to go back and forth. What I wanted to do was a little bit different. So once we, once we left, uh, once we sold the company, I stayed on for a few months and then I wasn't allowed to touch e-commerce for awhile. So for 20, 20 blue, Tusker actually didn't touch e-commerce cause I would've gotten sued.

So instead I had to wait until 2021. It's unfortunate. Obviously, you know, the pandemic was horrible for a lot of people, but it was great for a lot of e-commerce sellers. And I was so bummed that like, I couldn't get in there and start doing stuff, but so I started blue Tusker because I knew that eventually in 2021, I would want to kind of go this route.

And one of the things I had seen was there's full service agencies, like, like us, that the issue a lot of people have are they're generalists, right? So everyone does social and paid ads and content and video and this, and they're all like, okay at stuff, but no, one's great at anything. Or you have your other issue, which is you have sellers who go, I have an agency that specifically does Google.

I have one that specifically does social one that does my email. And like they're going after specialists. The problem with that is that then you're the owner of the business or whoever they have internally now becomes the account manager and it's spending their entire time telling you other agencies with the agency other agencies are doing.

So what I wanted to do was create this agency, that's on a full service side, but instead of hiring generalists, I'm hiring people that specialize in their department. And basically we don't offer that service until I have someone in that seat that I know can do it correctly. So we, we try to act like we're basically like a specialized departments all in one place.

And that's what I kind of wanted to go after. And with blue tuskr is changing the way that the agency market is because there's countless agencies. I see new ones all the time. A lot of them are very general where they'll work with e-commerce or they'll work with B2B, or they'll do dentists. And like, there's, they're all over the place, but I wanted to solely focus on e-commerce and getting people in house that know exactly what they're doing.

[00:15:11] Joseph: Yeah. Um, so I guess I'm a bit of an ass, I'm like, uh, a side one for this as well. So when you're looking for, for, for specialists, I, I can't have a wonder if one, the general vetting process for this. I don't know. Maybe it's just, Hey, people that submit their resume cover letter and then a good to go. Uh, and, and, but I also think too, that given the expensive nature of e-commerce, that there might even be times where somebody might even reach out to you and say, Hey, I noticed you're not offering this service.

Here's what I do. Here's why it's important. Um, just kinda open up, like wonder has that come up by any chance?

[00:15:43] Andrew Maff: So, uh, we get a lot of people reach out to us saying that they do PR specifically for e-commerce and we don't touch PR. So we've started to kind of talk to other agencies about how we can kind of just be like, Hey, if someone asks us for it, you know, we can send them your direction.

I'm not in this business to make money off like affiliate stuff. So it's kind of just like, I'd rather find an agency that does PR really well, because I don't think it's an area that we want to go in. At least not anytime soon. And then just vet them myself and then be like, okay, I'm going to refer everyone to you.

And I don't want to deal with anyone else. Cause I know that you guys know what you're doing. Um, the vetting process for employees is very different that as it was something I'm struggling with now, because I'm learning that I'm becoming more of a recruiter I've even started to think about, is it useful for me to just hire an internal recruiter who's constantly trying to find people cause to find people that really know what they're talking about. Obviously there's a, you know, kind of an extensive like interview process that we go through, but then there's also basically head hunting and trying to find like people that I already know in the industry that I've worked with before, or that I've been able to come across and just basically start going after them.

I'm lucky enough where my, uh, father owns a recruiting. My wife used to work at a recruiting company. Uh, my, um, sister used to been recruiting. Like I, my family's all recruiting. I hate recruiting, but they all taught me like what steps, like how to vet people correctly. So we're not dealing with like, you know, hiring someone and then finding out that they don't know.

[00:17:12] Joseph: Okay, great. Well, I've got one more follow-up to this because I think this is really good stuff. One thing that we talked about with the prior guests, um, Madeline Mann, she was all about, you know, um, she was a human resource expert, so she had a lot of advice on, uh, how to, how to be recruited. And it is possible for some people to be so adept at what they do and have such a, a, a, you know, a well, uh, thought out profile on, on LinkedIn.

Uh, that's a swift and effective that they don't even have to apply for jobs. People just come to them. So, um, what are some of the positive signs that either you or their extended family who've been doing this for you? Um, what do they, what do they catch? What do they, what do they see as, oh, that's a really good, that's a really good fit.

Uh, cause there was my, I asked this is because I don't know if every single person listens to this podcast is necessarily like starting their own business. I think in the spirit of entrepreneurship, a lot of these people might just wants to kind of do what I do, which is the asymmetrical value where it say, Hey, we want to elevate our own platforms.

And we wants to make sure that we can, uh, you know, be, be ready to be a part of the, the bigger picture. 

[00:18:11] Andrew Maff: Yeah. So basically what do I look for on a, on a LinkedIn profile to decipher whether they're worth contacting you or not? 

[00:18:18] Joseph: That's a great way to summarize it? Although, I guess I wouldn't keep it specific to LinkedIn, not on maybe monster.ca has that.

Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:18:25] Andrew Maff: So I typically use LinkedIn, if not, I'm using indeed the issue with indeed, but then also the benefits. So the issue would be that you can't really do a lot of outreach with indeed. You really just kind of have to post a job. The benefit being that you can say I'm willing to pay X per resume, but the resume has to have like X qualities in it.

So you ask like four or five questions and then you say like, they have to have, you know, five years or more experience. And if they have less, you don't pay for it. They can still submit for the role, but they don't pay for it. So you have a little bit control over costs there, but you have no control over like how fast resumes are coming in.

And if it's a complicated role, you're sitting there dealing with that, um, on LinkedIn. Um, you have like the LinkedIn recruiter account and just to clarify, not a recruiter. So if a recruiter listens to this and they're like, that's not how you do it, I'd be like, well, I'm sorry. That's um, there, you know, you can put in certain keywords that basically get triggered through like it scrapes their profile so you can figure out what you're looking for. Me, personally, I kind of go through like, have you worked in house at an e-commerce place before?

Have you worked in house at an agency before? And then have, you know, what marketing background do you have? Like, it kind of comes down to, yeah. What do I look for in the profile? But it also comes down to who I am as an owner. Like, what am I comfortable training? So like right now, I'm trying to find another designer.

I can't design if my life depended on it. So I don't care if you have a marketing background or not. Cause I can train on that, but I want to know that, you know, design inside and out. So I'm looking at portfolios, I'm looking at how long you've been in designer. I'm looking at if you've managed before, because as the team grows, I need someone to manage designers.

Cause again, I can't design, so it's kind of like, it comes down to what are you really looking for? And then you have to kind of pinpoint them there. 

[00:20:07] Joseph: Okay. One more asterisk on this one too, is that it does it also get to the point where they can even train you just to, you know, help you understand more of, uh, of what it takes?

[00:20:15] Andrew Maff: Oh, absolutely. Like all every designer I've ever worked with, I've always sat there and go, I love this. I know that this is going to convert. Please tell me why, why do I love this? Like, what is it about this I love? And they're like, well it's because it's like this and blah, blah, blah. Oh, And then that's, that's about as far as it gets.

[00:20:31] Joseph: Okay. All right. Cause like I, like, I, I know full well recruiting is a, is not your, your, your cup of tea. And yet here I am asking you much of a critical question. So wrapping that up, that you're done with that.

So, as I said, you've been, uh, digital marketing since 2009. And you said that you, so it was four, um, agencies that you own, but were you also with like hire for other agencies as well? So there's a mix of you leading, but also you being a team member? 

[00:21:05] Andrew Maff: So at the lab, so the first agency has started, it was kind of a marketing agency.

It started off, I was actually in the music industry and I did a lot of booking for like bands and stuff in. And so what would happen is like tourists would come through. I would book bands, I'd put them in venues, but then I was also the promoter and I would have to promote people. So they would come out to the shows.

And after a while, that became so big that the venues themselves asked me to start helping them promote, shows that I wasn't running anymore. So then I started, I basically started an agency where I was like a, a market, like a concert promoter, basically kind of music. Then we would have some venues where we would book more like jazz artists or something like that, where they were also restaurants.

They were also like a wine bar or something. And then they would start asking us to just do like, Hey, can you just mark it for us? Cause we have like a free something on Tuesday nights. I'm like, uh, sure. That's how the agency basically turned into like, almost like on a hospitality. That agency, I ended up merging with a family member because we basically merged and created a completely separate agency because my sister had basically started another agency that was more focused on retail, but also like brick and mortar retail.

So we kind of got together and started doing all brick and mortar of like hospitality and stores and things like that. And then, so I exited that one cause working with family is awesome. Then the next one I went in house somewhere in e-commerce, the it's kind of a long convoluted story, but basically the owner had a partner that partner, uh, was in the same building as us.

And I kind of built a relationship with him and talked about the agency that I used to own and how I could see it leveraging e-commerce that agent that we started. I was a very small minority partnering, but I ran that one and he was more on the consulting side and then a lot on the BD. So the last agency I was at, I was kind of more of a minority partner, but I essentially ran that one.

But outside of that, I don't have any like larger agency experience. I've kind of learned on my way. 

[00:23:03] Joseph: What I think is great is the, you know, the origins of this, um, I've been, you know, in and out of the arts, uh, not, not on the music side. Um, but I know just how difficult it is to, uh, uh, to promote things. I mean, you know, not everybody gets to be Radiohead.

It takes, it takes, it takes quite a while to, to, to generate it. And so, uh, clearly there's something there that you were, that you were doing well, you know, even from, from early on, and at the same time, you also had, um, small scale experience to start with so that you were able to, you know, clear this milestone, move on to a, another milestone.

So what'd you think it was, um, from the beginning of that was, uh, uh, for lack of a more eloquent term working? 

[00:23:43] Andrew Maff: It was that's basically what ended up getting me into where we're at now is like, I was that's when I realized like just pumping out content as much as possible. So I was able to grow the agency itself with its own name, just because what I started to do was we would bring in these tours of these bands that were good sized, they were filling up, you know, nice size venues of, you know, several hundred, like a hundred jeez that would have been great, like several thousand people.

So it was a good size show, but we still needed to have some kind of opening act for them. So I developed a really big relationship with the local artists. And what we started to do was we would like, basically do like album reviews and then like reviews of like album release parties or big like concerts or like, Hey, this local band is going off on a tour.

So we really got in depth into the community of like local bands and it was mostly in the central Florida area. And so I would basically kind of make sure that every local artists knew who we were. And then of course, when a new band was coming in and we would go, Hey, we're promoting the show who wants to get on it. Everyone that was part of it that was even in that genre would not only start to jump on it, but they would start to tell their fans like, Hey, reach out to them and tell them that you want us to open for them. And so now everyone who liked local music was starting to grow. So we really became like, we created so much content that we were able to build this community and then we just leveraged the community as much as want.

[00:24:59] Joseph: And another thing that I would extract from that as well is that you were also able to give it a lot of structure, because I think being in a creative field, such as that, you know, it is a lot of people just liking, just trying to make, make their own way. And so for there to be this connective tissue for everyone involved, and I think putting everybody on even footing as well, I said, look, you know, Hey, if you have a hundred fans and this guy's got 200 fans, the guy of the 200 fans is going to get more recognition, but at least you have a vision for, you know, what is your next goal as a, as a band is to end up becoming the, um, well, you know, eventually you get to be the band that has somebody else opening for you, but you know, they'll get there.

[00:25:34] Andrew Maff: Yeah, exactly. I mean, No, those local showcases where we would have like a bunch of bands who really wanted to open up for some bigger artists. And we would just be like, I want to see what you can do. So just, if you can pack this place, I trust that you can do it again. So it's, I'm not going to, you know, be breathing down your neck for you to bring him, bring a bunch of people out.

But so basically we would do these local showcases. Sometimes we would do it like, like, Hey, not necessarily who brings out the most people. Cause I hated that model, but I wanted to do, like, whoever has like the biggest reaction from the crowd and, you know, we weren't allowed, we didn't tell the bands what time they would go on until the last minute so that their fans had to show up in the beginning and watch everyone.

And that was kind of our way of figuring it out. The real benefit behind building that community though, that kind of ended up taking that knowledge with me through this venture that we're doing now was because we had that community kind of in one place. So we could just talk to and be like, Hey so-and-so is opening.

Like you should come out. We also were able to leverage that community of, Hey, this band is coming to town. Who wants to see them. And if they would, if I got like no response, I'd be like, I don't want them to send them somewhere else. And so they would have to skip central Florida, or they just wouldn't come into Florida because Florida, with the way that, that worked, no one likes to come down and not back out.

But anyway, um, so it was, you know, it was really came down to like creating so much content, creating community that, that started to work. And honestly, that's the one thing that I've seen with marketing that has worked for the past, like 10 15 years. 

[00:26:57] Joseph: Yeah, sorry, I just, I just kind of put a remark on the geography of Florida because it's not like it's, you know, it's not, it's not an on the way thing, cause they're probably not traveling by, uh, you know, an amphibious tank.

So they have to actually go, uh, circle down and come back up. Huh? I, I, I've never, I never thought about that before. Just how the geography can actually, um, change the strategy for, you know, how they have to travel out. They have to make use of their time. And then, and then the other part of too, that I think is also, um, uh, worthy of extraction is cause you said, and I really respect you for this is not really focusing on the crowd size because you can get like 500 people and they're all in, I guess I'll get her a red bull, but like, you know, they're not, they're not enthused.

It really is about the, the, the quality and the enthusiasm and, and how that energy is contagious. And it resonates from person. Yeah. 

[00:27:47] Andrew Maff: And with that though, the, one of the reasons I ended up getting out of the music industry is because at the end of the day, someone always gets screwed every time. And it was always about like, who's, who's getting screwed inside kind of thing.

And chances are, if you brought out, like, let's say you brought out 500 people and then the next band down only brought out like 200 chances are that, that band that brought out that many people is going to get the biggest reaction. So we tried to tell everyone, like, you want to make sure that you guys are all bringing as many people as you can, because if someone brings out a lot of people, they're going to cheer for the people that they know.

So obviously. That would be part of the caveat of it. Didn't always work, but it's the best we did it. 

[00:28:24] Joseph: Yeah, I mean better to, and that's a not that you need my feedback on it, but you know, better to attend, to attempt it and I try to get the best result you can out of it. Alright. So in keeping with talking about your, your prior experience, and then we'll come back to, to present.

So this, this question, this is more of a philosophy that I'm working on that I'm trying to contribute to the big picture because, you know, we talk a lot about, um, vertical, vertical growth. But what I don't see talked about as much is the lack of lateral growth. And what I mean by that is just to give you like a very basic example.

Um, somebody joins an agency and they specifically wanted to do copywriting. Next thing they know they are now doing. Just try to think of something that veers off late. Like if they're copywriting specifically for social media and now they're learning to copyright for emails, and then next thing they know that now they're hosting a podcast and I'm not like hypothetically not hypothetically, not me, not me.

I'm just saying. Um, so with that in mind, what I would like to know is the relationship between your vertical experience and your lateral experience, how often in your pursuit, in your, in your career journey, did you have to really like start a new pillar of growth or was it mainly like you're able to really focus on what it was you were doing for the most, our own stuff?

[00:29:35] Andrew Maff: I mean, I, I would say like most of my career was lateral for the most part. I mean, I would did obviously, like, you know, you would expand in your career and you would take the next step, but then you would kind of sidestep and then you'd go forward. Because basically, like, especially as I started getting an agencies and even back when I was doing music and stuff, it was, you know, okay.

I gotta figure out social media because I need to promote all these bands. And then it's like, great. Now I'm helping. Even at the time I had managed a couple bands, so like, okay, now I've got to run these guys, email lists, how do I do email? And then, Hey, uh, you're managing us and our website just went down.

Can you fix it and be like, uh, I guess so I got to figure that out now. Yeah, it was really kind of getting forced into different situations where I was like laterally, moving in and out of different things that I had to learn. Um, so it was really kind of throughout the entire career, making sure that if I wasn't great at something, I needed to be dangerous enough where I knew what was great.

I just knew that I wasn't capable of doing it. 

[00:30:34] Joseph: Okay. Okay. Great answer to that. I have to admit, I wasn't expecting you to say so much a lot of laterality, but I think the reason why I, you know, I work on this question and this philosophy is because I think this is a, this is a misconception getting into such a rapid and evolving industry is that like, you know, things are gonna change on a, on a daily basis, which we've also established at the beginning too.

So, all right. Back to present day, I know this from one of your previous interviews, um, one of the things that you have advised is to when it comes to running ads, uh, it just like get in there, get, get needy, get neck deep. If you're not gonna handle it. What I, what I, what I find interesting about this is for me, my mindset going into it.

I think I would rather start small just to see what kind of, uh, data, uh, because if I'm going to extrapolate data, I feel like I would have an easier time extrapolating from a smaller, um, uh, set of, uh, results rather than from the larger results, which then is the extrapolation I was going for in the first place.

So that's, that's kinda like where my mind is at, but, um, you, you advise to really just get in and get and get going. So I'd like to hear your perspective on, oh, and this is the other part of it too. There's also a matter of selectivity when it comes to platforms. Um, I don't know if it's advisable to say, like dive that far into each platform.

So I'd like to hear your perspective on, you know, which platform would be the ideal fit, I suppose, depending on the niche and you know, what the, what kind of business a person is running.

[00:32:01] Andrew Maff: swear, I say this at least two or three times a day. It depends on the product, the category and the business in itself.

Right? Like, depending on, so focusing on channel first, that's all going to come down to what product are you selling? Who are you targeting to? You know, what, if you're an owner and you're trying to do it yourself then, okay. Then do you have the ability to make some awesome creative? If not, then don't bother with social.

If you are, you know, incredibly data-driven, then you should probably try Google ads or like, you know, there's kind of comes down to, you need to cater to where your audience is and either learn it and figure out a way to do it correctly. Or you need to leverage what you know, best and try to do it that way.

When it comes into diving. So I get that a lot where people are like, yeah, you, you just want me to spend like five or $600 know an hour and see what happens. Like not exactly that route, but what happens is like, so we find a lot of sellers. So I, I mentioned earlier, maybe they're coming off Amazon and we'll start shop by site, and then they're going, we need Facebook ads and they gotta be on Instagram too.

And then I want them on Google. And now what about things? Should we doing that? And Tiktok is big? Should be on TikTok? I go, hold on. How big is your budget? And then they told me like, well, I want to spend a hundred dollars a day across all platforms and go, no, like there's no way you're getting enough data to do that.

So it comes down to there's a lot of, more like math involved when it comes into like trying to figure out what your budget should be. Cause if you want to spend $20 a day, but your CPA is, let's say $20. Okay, great. But unless you have a hundred dollars, a hundred percent conversion rate, you're not going to get any sales.

The other thing with e-commerce and then with each category and why that's also different. And it kind of goes the same for B2B as well is that everyone audience reacts differently on certain times, times of the week. So you might get some data on a Monday. That's very different than what you get on a Saturday, because maybe they're shopping more on a Saturday for you, or maybe, you know, maybe you're getting more on a Wednesday than you do on a Sunday.

And so if you're making all these small changes, you know, throughout the week, you're not going to get enough data, but at the same time, if you have a really low budget, you have to wait even longer to have enough data to figure it out. So you kind of have two options where you can spend a little bit and wait a lot longer to figure it out, or you can spend more and hopefully figure it out sooner.

So it kind of comes down to obviously how much capital you have. At your disposal to actually test all that stuff out. But my opinion, when you're hiring agencies or you, maybe you even hired someone internally to run this for you, you got to think like you have their salary or you have their management fee that you also have to figure out.

So if you're doing a really low budget, you better plan on sticking with that person for a while, because it's going to take some time for that to come in. And then if you start to factor in their fees, now you're losing money even faster. So if you actually spend more in the beginning and get enough data quicker, you don't have to waste as much, but at least you're not wasting time.

[00:34:50] Joseph: Right? Yeah. Even in spite of all of those caveats, it's still actually a bit of a relief because in my view, going in, I was like, I was expecting to hear that. Yeah, ineffective altogether, but it's still not good. And I, and I, and I definitely, uh, uh, uh, take that and take into consideration. The next thing that I wanted to ask you was bearing in mind, client confidentiality.

I always would like to give an opportunity to ask about, um, you know, case studies or just a certain relationships. You have clients that really stuck out, but again, it's, it's kind of a touch and go question because some people are a little bit more keen on it. One time, not pointing any fingers, but I was actually talking about an agency.

It was like, how did you know about that? I'm like, what's on your website. It's like, we've got to cut this out. So I had to go edit ahead of their website afterwards. So, uh, that was funny. And again, not pointing any fingers, but, uh, I still want to at least give you the offer. So, uh, any case studies, uh, fresh on your mind, the stick out stuff, uh, stories you'd like to tell.

[00:35:41] Andrew Maff: Yeah. Um, so we have a couple clients that we've worked with for a while, um, since last year, cause they're a little bit more on the SAS side, so they didn't technically break my NDA because they weren't e-commerce theoretically, cause they were selling a software that just happened to come with the products.

But don't cut that. I'll be fine. I'll take that. So basically they're, uh, one company I've been working with, it's actually funny enough, my best friend, as soon as I left that other place, he was like, I ha I work at this place and I want you to come here. So they sell 3d body scanners. So basically they're really cool there, they sell like most of the gyms.

So there are B2B product kind of. And so basically like you stand on it, it rotates. And it does like a full scan and it obviously takes your weight, but it will give you like your BMI and like how much muscle you gained versus how much fat you've lost. Cause sometimes, you know, you'll lose weight, but you'll add or you'll gain weight, but you've actually lost fat.

And like that's basically what it helps with. And so it's big on like retention with gyms and anyway, sorry. Um, I think it's a really cool product every time I talk about. 

[00:36:40] Joseph: No, I think, I think it's cool too. Although if I'm being fully transparent, I immediately reminded myself of that rotating thing they do on fear factor when the person is like going around in a circle and I'm like, are they? 

[00:36:51] Andrew Maff: It is actually kind of similar to that. Never thought of that.

Uh, I might have to tell it social feedback because I cut them in 20 posts. I'll tag you in it. But yeah. So when they first started, they were trying social ads. It wasn't really working, they were kind of trying Google ads and they couldn't really get anything there. They were playing with display ads and they were just kind of throwing money at the wall.

And they had, at the time, I swear it was like a two I'd have to look back it, but it was like a 250, like $300 CPA or something like that. And the product's not cheap. I mean, it's it, the product itself is like four or five K. And then I think it's a couple hundred bucks a month now or something like that for the software part of it.

But so it's, you know, it's a bigger product and business investment. So obviously they're going to have some issues with it. But after about, I think it was six or seven months, we had them down to a $45 CPA and they are now doing, they'll do this month. They're honest, to be honest, they're a little bit down this month.

They just did it last month. Uh, almost what they did like in the first two quarters of last year, like. Skyrocketed in terms of stuff that, you know, in their ad spend is obviously gone up, but their CPA has come way down. And what we kind of wanted to do was focus on, especially when you have like a B2B side of things is, you know, the, the sale doesn't end, as soon as they convert to a lead, the sale ends once they actually convert and they've purchased it.

So we actually changed our ads and our copy, and a lot of the different stuff that we were doing on what was targeting them based on where they were at in the life cycle. So if they were a lead and had just booked a meeting, but they were kind of in like the, the, uh, decision area, we started changing all the ads they were seeing to like testimonials and like, Hey, this was great for my business.

You should do it too kind of thing. And so after about six, seven months, we started to see that that was, that was one where we were like, that's great. That's going to be a case study. 

[00:38:45] Joseph: While you're running your, your background process there, what I, what I find compelling about that is there, aren't very many things that I, I tend so want to push back on because I always try to come from the position of a learner.

Um, I've made that mistake in the past where just like I knew everything. So those, those are your following. I've said this three times. Okay. But what I, what I, what I liked about this case study is the, the focus more on each individual sale really counts. And it's not so much about, well, you know, we're not going to, you're not going to scale this.

Uh, it's not something that we're going to be moving a thousand of actually, I don't even know, like, what's the quantifiable value there. You compare it to people selling bracelets, for instance, those are the kinds of things you want to sell tens of thousands of. So, and, and what I notice is in scaling tends to be a touchy subject because a lot of times people will do work that is valuable, but if they're not scaling it, they don't want to do it.

So, so with you, um, was that a consideration or were you guys able to work out the, you know, the, the, the cost of this? So that way it was. Again, for lack of a better term worth your time. 

[00:39:58] Andrew Maff: It is always a consideration, but I am not a fan of saying everything must be scalable. You have to be able to get from a, to B without being worried about how am I going to get from a to Z, because you've got to get to be first before you can do that.

Sometimes you have to do things in my opinion, that are not scalable and then gets you to the next point and then figure out another way to do what you're trying to do, or then figure out how to scale it. But sometimes you have to solve your solution with people as opposed to software, or you have to solve it with more ad spend, as opposed to new creative and like there's, you know, there's a lot of different ways and sometimes it's not the perfect solution.

And, you know, we're not all starting multi-billion dollar businesses and we're not all having 500 investors with us and we're not all public, so we can't do it that way. So sometimes you have to do things where it takes a little bit more manpower or it takes, you know, it takes you in a route that you don't want to go in, but eventually that's going to get you to the next spot and then you figure it out.

But worrying about getting to the next spot first before you're worried about getting far out there. So like with ad spend, um, I say the same thing about ad spend, as I do about like, when someone's hiring someone you're not required to pay that on a monthly yearly, anything basis, you're required to pay that until you go, this isn't working and then you cut it.

They said, it's the same thing with recruiting. And I hate to bring this back to recruiting, but you know, it's, it's a hire slow and fire fast, like great decide that you're going to increase your ad, spend slow, figure out the right channel to do it in make sure that you're, you're comfortable with where you're going to do your testing.

And then if it goes, this isn't working. You're not dedicated to sticking to, Google's not going to Sue you because you stopped your ads. You're fine. 

[00:41:39] Joseph: Um, if you had because I think you were trying to see if another case said it came to mind. So, uh, um, when, when we're done, otherwise I'll move on to the? 

[00:41:48] Andrew Maff: Yeah, no, um, we have, uh, another one.

So actually my old, uh, this one's funny. So the old CEO that I worked with at the old agency, um, I still work with him now. We just started back up and they sell like these big, old, like concrete grinder things. And they've always had issues with converting online because they have an older audience. Like they have, you know, these guys that are contractors, they're out in the field all day long.

They might have their phone on them, but when they come home, like they're probably just relaxing and they've been on their feet all day. So they're not slipping through social media. And so we're trying to figure out what's the best way to approach them. However, we also want to appear like we're new cutting edge.

We had to find new ways to do them. So we put. 500 different bells and whistles of, you know, uh, SMS campaigns. And we're taking a pretty big focus on things. So I always find that it blows my mind that most people don't touch thing because Bing's got a very dedicated audience. If you think about thing comes preloaded on almost every PC.

So it's typically an older, less technologically savvy audience, which was exactly who we were targeting. So we started doing that and we were able to get a lot more out of them even being now probably does just as well as Google, which is impressive, considering the size differences. Um, and then just in terms of targeting and the audience that we wanted to go after, especially on social, like if we're going to do social ads, what are these needs to look like?

So look, we were actually lucky enough. They already had a video available where they took these concrete grinders and this thing looked like a race car. Like it was really cool looking and for whoever we're going after, I don't hate that idea. I was like, I actually think this could work. So we started using it.

They had. Uh, in June, we did a, like, we just called it like a semi-annual sale and it did. More revenue on the site. They also do lead generation, but they did more revenue on this site than they had ever done by like three X or something. Ridiculous like that. And it was just a matter of us focusing on the audience and how are we reaching them.

So we, we dove real deep into like, who are we talking to? Like, instead of just doing the templated approach, which is we need Facebook, we need Instagram, we need Twitter and we need to be on all these channels. Be like doing, do we need to be on them? Like, do we have to, like, maybe we can have a little bit of a presence just in case, but we don't need to like put all our eggs in one basket.

And so we've tried to figure out specifically where they were at and just honed in on, in that 

[00:44:06] Joseph: way. I picked up on a parallel there, basically what you were saying earlier from your time in the music. To me, the comparison between being a Google is almost the same comparison that you're making before.

The energetic crowd, but maybe not as big versus the, the big crowd, which will at times be energetic, but are largely disinterested in, uh, and, uh, anything beyond their capacity. I don't know if this is the first time anybody's gonna notice this about it, but it seems like that's kind of the same thing that you're doing here is that like, you know, Bing is the more focused audience is it's closer to what we're going for.

So even if they don't have the raw numbers, it is again, the higher level of engagement, which is better for you. 

[00:44:42] Andrew Maff: Yeah, exactly. Like at the end of the day. Yes. You know, everyone thinks like, okay, where are we going to start? We're going to start on Facebook. Are we gonna start on Google? Like, why are those the only two options?

Yes. They're biggest. Yes. That's the, you know, obviously a lot of people are on them, but not, everyone's just only on those. I was like, your audience is older. They're, you know, they're searching for things actively. They're not really dedicated to a certain brand. In most aspects I go to search is probably gonna be our best bet, but they may not have Google.

They might actually have Bing because they come preloaded on a PC and no contractor is buying a Mac. Like there, no, one's putting a $3,000 investment into a computer that they're not really using at any time. So I'm like, they're probably getting a PC and they're probably on getting just preloaded on Bing.

I go, let's try bing. And sure enough, like, you know, took a little bit longer to take some of the data from Google and try to figure out what's actually going to work. But thing ended up matching up to Google. If not, it has its weeks where it does better than. 

[00:45:37] Joseph: Yeah. I was laughing for this, like, just imagine like a construction worker showing up to decide with an apple computer, but it's got all the stickers on it. 

[00:45:44] Andrew Maff: Like sweet home Depot sticker.


[00:45:48] Joseph: That's that's that's fair. I mean, it makes, make makes sense.

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Along these lines. So, you know, we were talking about being open-minded towards some of the platforms such as being that we don't, I'm not that I'm counting, but I think we talked about being like four times. Google certainly comes up more often Facebook. Well, I don't have enough fingers to count that, but along these lines, another thing that I've noticed about what you, when you talk about is also some of these other alternative marketplaces.

And by that, I mean, the marketplaces and there was Wayfair, there was Walmart, uh, there's Facebook marketplace and, and, you know, generally speaking, I attribute, you know, um, these marketplaces more to, you know, one off products. Like if somebody says, Hey, here's my bed, I'm getting a new bed who, who wants my bed?

And I, and I know that's an aspect of it. So what I'd like to hear about is, you know, is your experience, uh, whether for you personally, or with your clients is, um, approaching these, uh, the, the marketplace strategy and how, um, you know, how your products are, I guess, blending in and slash or sticking out compared to what people generally expect when they, uh, when they come onto the marketplace.

[00:47:15] Andrew Maff: I think a lot of the issues with some of the marketplace and Amazon, I had this issue for a really long time. And even now I still think it kind of does. I feel like it's getting a little bit better, but the, it, people would just throw up their product and then you would get all these knockoffs that coming from, you know, overseas that would also just throw up their products.

So now your product that you work so hard on and your livelihood has been based off of it now, it looks the exact same as, you know, a crappy knockoff that someone just threw up. So what we always focus on is if you're going to go onto a marketplace, you have to do it right. Make sure all your imagery is fully branded.

You make sure you have a brand voice guideline in place so that all of your titles and bullet points and descriptions and everything, all of your copy sounds the same as it does on your website. Your marketplaces that you shop on should be an extension of your website, as opposed to just its own separate thing where you throw up your product on there, because you knew people were shopping for a long time.

I used to say that it was, and I still kind of throw this idea out to certain sellers sometimes, but so you have your product page, maybe have your buy now button. What about having an available on Amazon button available on Walmart, available on eBay and just letting the shopper shop wherever they're most comfortable chances are.

They're going to end up going to Amazon depending on your product line. Some people might go over to Walmart. Some may go over to eBay, but you can even showcase like what your product prices on those. So you're basically letting them know, like, if you want this product, there's all these places you can get it, but these are the prices and all these different places, whether it's lower in one place or another, that's a whole different story, but basically making sure that your brand is completely in place and it looks the same.

And it sounds the same and it's on another marketplace. And then basically your customer is more likely and more comfortable shopping with you because they know that it is you and not some cheap. 

[00:48:59] Joseph: That's another interesting insight as well. Just the idea of listing where also the product is available.

Um, if you were to ask me what a logic, I would have ascribed to why they do it, it's probably because they either have like a rewards program or they're using Amazon prime. And he says, well, I might as well use Amazon prime. I going to get this thing delivered. 

[00:49:17] Andrew Maff: There are certain situations where like, I think it's a good idea.

Like, especially if someone is testing out a new Shopify site, but a lot of their businesses on the marketplaces. Great. The issue there is, you know, you don't own your customer on Amazon or Walmart or really anywhere. So if you can at least drive them to your website and you can at least cook you them in a certain way, or maybe even if you have like a lead form of some way to actually get an email, but then they leave.

At least you still have that data. And, you know, you can track if you use that custom source code and stuff in the back of Amazon, you can sometimes track like exactly how many people came from your site and actually purchased and all that fun stuff. But at the same time, you know, people are getting so frustrated with these different marketplaces that they're like, you know, they take so much margin and, you know, they control everything and all this stuff.

So like, obviously it may, there is a logic behind why you wouldn't want to do that, but we have an omni-channel approach. Like there's been so many times where we'll increase ad spend on Facebook, let's say. And I'll only see the website revenue increased by, let's say 5%, but Amazon will increase 5%. And that's just because people know that, Hey, this is a cool product.

They go to the site and then they go, oh, I wonder if it's on Amazon. Then they go buy it on Amazon. So I try to look at all advertising spend versus all revenue. And then I judge it that way of like, are we seeing the incremental revenue growth with the incremental spend across the board because it's such a fluid, uh, customer journey that you can't really know where people are going to go.

[00:50:41] Joseph: One thing I've noticed about this, um, cause I'm factoring in, um, some of your case studies you brought up and, and using the, uh, the marketplaces, um, in, in addition to a lot of, uh, a lot of the other things that we've talked about today, as well as what other people can find out on your website, because we haven't covered everything.

Usually when I, one of the issues that I'm trying to get a grasp on, and this is a very macro perspective is an e-commerce brand. Might be limited by being an e-commerce brand. Once in a while, I think a brand will like make it into a more just standard commerce territory, like Jim sharp, for instance, as an example of like an e-commerce brand that they made it.

And what I think is going on here is I think you're actually facing the opposite problem is, you know, you're, you're, you're rooted more in, in, in commerce as perhaps more traditionally viewed again, you know, with, um, work with the construction, uh, and with the, the, the rotating, uh, gym. Forgive me. I didn't, I didn't write down what the call, the rotating gym thing yet.

Um, the fear of factory, something like that. So it sounds to me like your challenge is more like trying to, um, get these things into e-commerce rather than working with an e-commerce and try and, uh, and trying to expand it out out of that. Am I, am I right? Or am I off? 

[00:51:54] Andrew Maff: No, you're I mean, you're, you're mostly right.

We really focus almost solely on digital. We really don't do much print. We don't do really anything with like end caps or anything like that. Or like, let me do some product design, but typically it's for people who strictly due to see, um, like we can give guidance on what we would suggest for retail, just based on what we've learned from what other sellers are doing.

It's one of the nice things about an agency is fortunately for one client, they're learning a lesson, unfortunately for another client, because I learned it from them. Like they messed up, you should do this, like that kind of thing. Like, you know, there's a benefit to that. And, you know, I kind of get some of that insight from retail sides.

And usually what'll happen is if like I have a certain client who went retail and that's someone who wants to go retail, they go talk to them like they do, they know what you're doing. So help them out kind of thing. Like I'll introduce, I have no problem doing that. And it's like, I can give guidance on that, but usually we're helping people.

Expand on e-commerce because they're already e-commerce or expand to e-commerce because brick and mortar didn't work out, which last year would have been great for. But like I said, we can last year. 

[00:52:59] Joseph: I got three more. Uh, and then, uh, and then I'll, uh, then I'll let you go. So this one in the interest of, you know, things can change rapidly, perhaps, um, your, your, your position to this has changed, but we'll see, um, it's your philosophy on starting an agency, which is do it, like, you know, you start an agency, you'll learn, you'll learn as you go.

Are you still standing by this? And if so, what level of expertise should someone have, if any, like, is this something that people can really just get started and from sort of from scratch? 

[00:53:26] Andrew Maff: Yeah. So, okay. So you're referring to, uh, the, that interview I did where I said everyone should start an agency, right?

So, first of all, just some background, so that. Interview thing that I did was basically for people who are looking to get into marketing and like how to start a marketing career, if you're an e-commerce seller and you're an inventor, do not start the marketing. That's not what I would suggest. What I was suggesting for our marketing side is it really helps you learn different intricacies of marketing as a whole, like I wholly believe wholly solely.

I believe that everyone should have a general focus, but you have to know the other aspects of what's going on. You can't run, you can't be solely focused on paid advertising and have no background in how a website converts. Because so many times I've seen these agencies where they'll drive all these ads to a website and it won't convert.

And they'll just tell whoever they're working with like, yeah, you got to get your website because our click through rate is great. And like that doesn't help. You have to guide them through what the next step is like. You're going to want to change this. You should be able to do this. Like you have to be able to speak to stuff where you can be dangerous.

Starting an agency. You basically have to start doing that. And you also come on the other side of it, which I kind of touched on in that interview was you can't just solely be a marketer because really every marketer in my eyes is an entrepreneur in one way or another. And it's really hard to make certain marketing decisions, unless you're a business owner yourself in one way or another to the point where you can understand certain decisions that you need to make.

Yeah. I might say increase your ad spend, but all I've ever done is. If I've owned a business before I go, I would say, increase your ad, spend here, but I know the situation you're in and I know your seasonality is coming to an end. We might not want to do that right now. Let's see how it's going. So then the decisions I'm making are more based on business success and less on marketing success.

[00:55:20] Joseph: Okay. There's ways for that to cascade as well. But like I said, we're coming, we're coming up on the closing marks. I didn't want to like, yeah. Um, I just wanted to follow up on that because I thought it was a really cool, uh, point of view. This is the next one I'm asking this one, purely for fun. Um, which is, uh, I do enjoy living vicariously through people who have gone to conventions and stuff like that.

Um, so I, I would just wouldn't mind, um, if, uh, any like the live events that, well, probably nothing in the last year, but, uh, anything that you're looking forward to or anything that really stuck out and what are the kinds of. Insights that somebody gleams from those. Cause I'm being honest and hopefully nobody in the company hears this, but if I were to go to those, I would probably just go for the fun of it.

I don't know if I would actually like focus on learning. I've just caught my cost myself a trip, but that's okay. 

[00:56:04] Andrew Maff: That's okay. Well, you're not going now. So, um, so I did, uh, obviously not last year, it was in 2019. It actually might have been 2018. When I went, I did, uh, traffic and conversions in San Diego by digital marketer.

They do a great job. As far as I know, it's probably one of the largest marketing conferences that exist in this country. Um, and it was a great job. I did learn a lot. I, the nice thing was, is I can tell that they kind of vet their speakers and that, you know, they kind of go through like, what are you going to talk about?

And is there any actionable. I hate going to conferences where they talk the entire time, you're there through like a half hour, 45 minute session and you just leave it and go, they didn't tell me to like, do anything. They were just basically philosophizing and doing all this BS of like, none of this is like, none of this is you have to be, you have to get up and hustle that shut up.

Don't tell me how to live my life. Like, I just want to know, like, if I changed my Google ad this way, will it work? Like I want specifics traveling. Immersions is great at that. I'm more than happy to give you the other side where I've gone to prosper for Amazon so many times. And I've gotten to the point where like, no one is teaching me anything new.

It's all the same stuff over and over again. So there's definitely certain ones that like to, and don't get me wrong. I'll definitely end up going back to prosper. I know I'm gonna end up going back. I'm going to get, I would probably just do like every other year kind of thing to see if maybe I missed something, but I think they all kind of come down to like, which ones do you really enjoy and what are you looking to get out of it?

And if you're really interested in what you're about to learn like several years ago, driving conversions did like a spinoff and they did an agency only conference and it was in New York. And I can't remember what they called it, but it was great. And they had Gary Vaynerchuk of course, was like their main guy that spoke.

And like, it was very interesting to hear specific for agencies. And since obviously that's what I do. I wasn't really interested, but for everyone else, it's kind of like, what are you really interested in? And go learn that and focus on that. And if there's something else you want to learn more about, but you don't really care about it, send one of your employees, let them go learn.

It it's like you, although you. 

[00:58:10] Joseph: It would depend on the convention and at the very least. Yeah. But for the most part, it's a look at the land on green and not red and black. So I understand with that, uh, this has been a fantastic, uh, Andrew I've, I'm really grateful to have, uh, having every time I feel like we've, we've covered a lot today.

The final question is again, Ecomonics tradition is any last bits of wisdom, a Chinese proverb, something you'd like sharing. And then let the audience know how they can get in touch, see your content and see more of what you're up to maybe even get in touch themselves. 

[00:58:40] Andrew Maff: Oh man. Last bit of advice, I guess.

What would I, I don't know any Chinese Proverbs, to be honest with you, Jeff Bezos. Uh, what's that song that's big with him right now? Uh, from no, no, no. 

[00:58:55] Joseph: Cause he just got blasted into space. 

[00:58:57] Andrew Maff: Well, okay. So there's a comedian Bo Burnham who did a song about Jeff Bezos and it's like 20 seconds long and it is hilarious.

You gotta listen to it anyway. Uh, he, he said something once where it basically just said like more or less like obsess over your customers. And I, I couldn't agree with it more. I obviously, if you take it for what he means over it, you know, it was just great. And just if you know your customer inside and out, you know who you're targeting and you just want to make sure they're happy.

It's hard to fail. Um, that's that's, I'll give you that. That's all I got, but, uh, yeah, so obviously there's like blue Tasker around all social it's blue tuskr there's no E so B L U E T U S K R. So there's one a not too. Uh, and then all my socials, Andrew Maff, um, I am always open to just tweeting with people and answering questions and stuff.

It's it's just fun for me. So, but yeah, that's, uh, that's where we're at. Great. 

[00:59:49] Joseph: Well, again, uh, one more, thank you for the road. This has been a lot of fun today. A lot of, a lot of insight, lot and taking a lot of stuff, jot it down. Um, and so with that to my audience, uh, y'all know what I'm about to say. And this is the first time in which case welcome. Email podcast@debutify.com I want to hear more from you and to everybody else. It is an honor and a privilege to be able to collect this information and share it with all of you. Yes. I am trying to say this faster each time and all of that said, take care. We will check in soon.

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Joseph Ianni

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