icon-folder-black Agencies Digital Marketing

Chase Clymer - Electric Eye Agency and the Brand Scaling Framework

icon-calendar 2021-12-16 | icon-microphone 54m 6s Listening Time | icon-user Joseph Ianni

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Getting to chat with someone who's both a podcaster and business owner is an uncommon treat, so as is my contractual obligation I have to notify you this episode gets a bit meta. With that out of the way, Chase Clymer of Electric Eye Agency breaks down many of the key metrics and procedures his agency uses to push for success; we talk about the major KPIs they base their project work on, the stages of growth he sees businesses undergo and their signature brand scaling framework, all tried and tested, so there's plenty of knowledge packed into this hour, hope you enjoy.

Chase Clymer is the Co-founder at Electric Eye where he and his team create Shopify-powered sales machines from strategic design, development, and marketing decisions. He is also the host of Honest Ecommerce, a weekly podcast where we provide online store owners with honest, actionable advice to increase their sales and grow their business.




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[00:00:00] Chase Clymer: So your question about product research and all that stuff, and finding product market fit, you know, would be kind of in the zero to one stage, which is isn't something that we as an agency do. I don't think an agency can help you in that stage at all. Your money is going to get 10 X returns if you invested in yourself, you read books, you take courses, you understand it. Like, I believe that you should understand this stuff at a top level before you hire.

[00:00:28] Joseph: Get into a chat with someone who was both a podcast around business owner isn't uncommon treat. So as is my contractual obligation, I have to notify you that this episode gets a bit meta. All right, with that out of the way, Chase Clymer of electric eye agency breaks down many of the key metrics and procedures his agency uses to push for success. We talk about the major KPIs they base their project work on, the stages of growth he sees businesses undergo, and their signature brand scaling framework. All tried and tested. So plenty of knowledge packed into this hour. Hope you enjoy. 

Chase Clymer. It is good to have you here on comonics.

How are you doing today? How are you feeling? 

[00:01:04] Chase Clymer: Fantastic. This is the first podcast I'm recording after being on vacation. So I'm ready to get to it. 

[00:01:10] Joseph: Oh, fantastic. Bit of housekeeping for my audience. Those of you who are listening in sequence will know that three episodes ago. I had to be in the card room.

I gotta be back here today because I had to make a decision between echo or that one last, so between those two options, I decided to go with echo. So housekeeping out of the way. Um, it's, it's great to have you here. I've had a chance to look into what you do, what you're up to, but the Ecomonics tradition is always let the guests answer that question. So tell us, what do you do? What are you up to these days?

[00:01:43] Chase Clymer: Yeah, so my name is Chase. I am the co-founder of an agency called electric eye. Uh, we're based out of Columbus, Ohio, but we're fullyremote. Um, and also on top of the agency, I am the host of honest e-commerce a podcast, uh, that is in the same realm as yours. We're trying to bring insights and value to people in the e-commerce space.

We're definitely getting a lot more into, uh, the kind of scaling aspects of a brand you've found product market fit, and like, how do you get to that next level? Um, so that's kind of what all the content is around our podcast and that's kind of the types of clients that we help at the edge. 

[00:02:19] Joseph: Once in a while, I get to have a, you know, medic questions sometimes when I talk to fellow podcast, ears or fellow interviewers and I can't help myself.

So I wanted to ask you a meta question as well. But like I said before, it was had recording. I've lost track of how many I've done so far. I think around like 140 somewhere around there, you know, like the first few episodes, they tend to be the ones that stick out the most because it's so new and fresh and, uh, understanding of the structure, getting a feel for even how to do the show and then, you know, a hundred or so episodes go by. And, I'm at the point now where I don't think I could name all of the people that I've had on the program off the top of my head that would take some, some digging to do. I tend to think of it. Like, you know, my, my brain is a bucket and the information that I'm receiving is water filling the bucket.

And it overflows quite a bit because there's only so many things that I can retain in my mind. I'm keen on hearing about your, your experience in this realm is how. Um, each episode has managed to continue to resonate with you, uh, how you've been able to keep the information somewhere, um, available for you to come back and extract too.

And maybe just comment on like the, the, the bittersweet part of, of doing this, which is, you know, each guest. At their most significant when you get to talk to them. 

[00:03:33] Chase Clymer: Just to be very honest with everyone listening, starting the podcast was the best business decision we made, uh, for our agency. Uh, and probably for my professional career, it's opened a lot of doors for me personally, and for the agency, it has been, you know, it's done a lot of stuff in terms of content marketing in terms of, uh, making partnerships that much better in terms of submitting us as subject matter experts in the field and landing new clients, honestly, uh, the podcast has been amazing.

Let's go back two and a half years. The first episode I had no idea what I was doing. Those episodes are still fun. Cause I had really smart guests on. So they kind of knew what I didn't, when it came to like doing an interview, doing a podcast. Um, you know, it's funny, I was a lot more structured in a lot more rigid at the beginning and now I kind of have just no care in the world because I've done it so many times.

And I go in just like, this is going to be great. I know how to keep the conversation going. I know how to ask the correct questions, how to follow up. Um, so it, as the podcast is now on episode, like with bonus episodes, I think we're well into 200 of just the ones that we've recorded, but, and then I've also been guests on a bunch of them too. Uh, at this point it's just like, you know, I go with my gut and I know where the conversation is gonna kind of go. And we're, we're kind of doing a lot of the same stuff over and over now. Or we're interviewing a lot more founders specifically. Um, so that's a pretty fun story arc to tell it's just a hero's journey with a different command at the helm. So it's pretty easy. Yeah. I, I don't know if I answered your question. That's that's what came to mind. 

[00:05:07] Joseph: Oh, I mean, I'm, I'm happy to hear all of that. Um, but I guess to, to re-summarize the question it really has to do with about, you know, all of the information collected is have you found that, that. You know, it's almost like a buffet where, you know, you're able to, you're able to supply all of this, all of the information, and then it's about, you know, extracting what's what's meaningful to you.

I mean, do you use my, in my experience as an example, we did have a game streamer on so far was just the one game streamer on and, you know, being a massive during myself, we ended up, they been good friends and now I'm a guest on his podcast every week. And I mean, you know, and we get along a great deal.

So. Like you were saying with doors opening that door swung wide open. And now I have this whole new group of friends, this whole new, uh, community to be a part of. And that's one of the most significant takeaways from doing the show so far. So not everything gets to have that. Let me, let me try asking you like, this is, what do you do to really try and make each episode count in the, in the big picture?

[00:06:04] Chase Clymer: I'm pretty particular, a lot more particular now on who that I have on the podcast. Uh, I want to make sure that they are going to bring a unique insight to the show and that they're, you know, they're further enough along in their journey to where honestly, you just gotta be one step ahead of somebody for someone to like, just pull so many insights from your journey and not make mistakes.

So it's not like I'm putting, you know, I'm, I'm not saying people have to be like, yeah, doing tens of million dollars a year or anything like, but they gotta, you know, they gotta be off the ground. Um, and it's just it's so every e-commerce brand is like unique someone. The other day said that though, like a fingerprint, I think it was Ross Alcorn from shopper creative files, talking to him yesterday.

He was like, yeah, every e-commerce store is like a fingerprint. It's always unique. So it's honestly, every episode is just it's unique and there's always a different perspective. And honestly, sometimes the content is the. But I even know from personal experience, I needed to hear the same things like three or four times to get it.

And so I'm, I know that our audience needs to hear these things from a different perspective, from a different person, two or three times before they're like, okay, people are always talking about this. Maybe I should do this thing. 

[00:07:14] Joseph: Yeah. And, and touching on that, uh, what I've also found as well to be, uh, encouraging is always hearing different opinions on, uh, on certain subject matter. So for instance, that we talk about the product testing, our. Uh, running an e-commerce store. I have, I have heard a number of different takes on it. We have, uh, one school of thought, which is, you know, if you test the product out, give it a shot. If it's not working out, you kill it and you move on to the next one.

Um, I've had, uh, the counter argument to that, which is, you know, you may be, you're just out looking at it the right way. Maybe there is a different way that you can approach a marketing this product. So you should continue to expand on your testing and see if maybe there's a different market for it. And then another school of thought, which was, you know, touching on that as well, which maybe your issue is that you're not niche enough. Maybe you need to target a specific user of the product rather than all the potential users of the product. So to contextualize that for you, the getting me on skin in the game to, you know, after listening to so many great stories, it's hard not to want to do it myself.

And the product that I'm working on are drawers that you can put underneath the table and it gives you more functions. And, and, you know, re and recently, uh, I guess the named, um, actually I'm blanking on the name. I hate when I do that. All right. It'll come back to me. So anyways, what he said was, you know, your, your, your targeting is too general.

You need to be way more specific with who you're going after. And that stuck out to me too. So I think one of the, one of the beauties of. Even if you hear a lot of people giving you the same advice, conversely counter veiling advice or conflicting advice as also significantly helpful too, because what it shows is there is never one approach to finding the right option. What you want to do is find that approach that actually does work out for you. And then I think that turns into a catalyst for people to move forward. 

[00:08:59] Chase Clymer: Oh, yeah, absolutely. There isn't there isn't one way to do it. And that's definitely something that I've learned from doing all these interviews is like, yeah, all these people have different approaches, but I will say the one thing that they all had in common.

They found what worked for them. And then they doubled down, they tripled down on that one thing and just kept, kept optimizing it until they couldn't anymore. And then they'd start to try other things. That's usually what was separating like winning brands from ones that were kind of flailing. 

[00:09:25] Joseph: Right. Uh, doubling down on. I get that. So here's the, here's the next thing that I have that I was curious to ask you about in regards to your podcast is, uh, I liked the branding of it. It's, you know, the no BS approach. You know, cut the fluff, um, gets to, to the good stuff. Uh, and, um, and I've tended to bite, which is what in your experience have you found to be the BS?

Um, maybe even from my own side, I'm like, oh, there's probably some fluff in here somewhere I could stand to, to, to look into that and figure out what's coming. 

[00:09:51] Chase Clymer: Well, first of all, saying that tagline on the podcast, I just updated that probably the beginning of, I don't know, like three, six months ago, time is flying this. She was going by so fast, but I'm saying that was so hard with that because it was like the alliteration on it. It was really hard to like punctuate and say when I was like taking that add take. So it was funny that you actually heard that. Um, but I mean, many moons ago, uh, when the agency first got started, There was this weird kind of underbelly of YouTube in this connotation of Shopify of this whole get rich, quick mentality behind it.

All. It was a lie. It still is a lie. And it is, you know, there's only one way to make a million dollars and that's worked really, really hard. You know, you can point out all the things that you want. And I'll just tell you why that that's, you know, not the case for everybody, that's just a fluke. That's just like an abnormality.

And you can't like, assume that you're special. If you want to do it, you gotta put in the work. So anyways, uh, that's kinda, what was the catalyst for the, the, the podcast. Um, I mean, you can still go on YouTube type in shipping millionaire and you'll find a bunch of garbage. 

[00:10:54] Joseph: Yeah. I mean, to this day, I don't know if I, we, I don't think we've had a, we've spoken to any that the grew group that everybody seems to, to target.

I mean, they, you know, they have their own community, they have their own way of doing things. And I mean, it's unfortunate that they're there to be creates a negative stigma towards the remaining of the community. And even for me too, um, I entered the e-commerce space with this position. And even I had a, a lot of skepticism towards it. Like, is this is this seems too good to be true is it, you know, is it really in the hands of any individual to, to make it work? And then I got my first paycheck and I said, okay, you know what? Nevermind, we're fine. 

[00:11:29] Chase Clymer: Yeah. I mean, I oftentimes come off sounding like, I think dropshipping is like scam and then that's not what I mean. Uh, I know, I know people making money with dropshipping currently, uh, but they're doing it in a very specific tactical niche way. Um, that isn't the way, you know, where I'm going to teach you how to set up and make money in 15 minutes with a Shopify store. Like that's, you're never going to do it that way because there's tens of thousands of people doing that a month as well.

Like the competition is so wild on anything. You're going to find on like those apps, like overload or anything like that. Uh, but if you can think about it and actually find a niche in the market, and then you are playing the long game, like you can still find success in drop shipping. I just think that, uh, what attracts people to e-commerce sometime is the glitz and glam and the money and like get rich quick. And like the work is easy and make your own hours type stuff, which I, I really want to just blow that wide open and be like, if that's what's getting you into this, all you're going to do is like lose a bunch of money on Facebook ads and on whatever course you buy.

And you're not going to have a good time. 

[00:12:37] Joseph: So quick record keeping Jonathan once again I'm so sorry. I can't believe I dropped his name. Anyway. So, so back on track, it's a motivating factor for a lot of people and it's appealing and anybody who thinks it's too good to be true is accurate. But I do want to take a moment to, um, you know, explore what is the true motivating factor and, and it's, and it's corny.

But I really think it comes down to the desire for freedom. Um, and I think for a lot of people, you know, money is just a means to achieve that freedom. And I've tried to consider what is a comparable methods to it. And I don't think it gets any better than entrepreneurship. Uh, it really doesn't because once you get to that point where you can start delegating tasks and you do have control over your own hours, you do have control over, you know, where you want to be and what you want to do and how you want to branch out.

I can't think of a, of a, more of a more freeing, uh, method, you know, Meaning aliens and, and discover anything, all of this new technology that actually does freed up all of our time. But, um, from your experience, what have you found to be the true catalyst that has motivated people to make it work in, uh, in, in, in this space? 

[00:13:39] Chase Clymer: I mean, I just want to agree with you that entrepreneurship is like the coolest thing ever. Uh I'm I'm over here, like telling my friends to quit their jobs and like follow their dreams and be like, dude, you can do it. Like, eh, I'm I believe in, I believe in it so much. And I have met people that they themselves will say, I'm an idiot.

And I have an amazing business because it's not that hard. You know what I mean? It's it's stuff. They should be keep teaching in high school, honestly, like entrepreneurship is awesome. But, uh, to answer your question, what are the commonalities that I see in people that are finding success in e-commerce?

And I, it's a passionate about solving a problem. It's a passionate about their product being the best that it can. And above all, it's being passionate about being. Uh, the best, like they can to their customers there, they put their customers on a pedestal. 

[00:14:28] Joseph: So one thing that you mentioned is with your business, I don't think everybody that you're working with all your clients are dropshippers per se, is that right? Like some of them may be drop shippers, but not everybody? 

[00:14:37] Chase Clymer: Actually, none of our clients are dropshippers. And, uh, it's not that we have anything against it. It just doesn't use, the margins are too thin to afford what we do is the way I can describe it. Okay. 

[00:14:48] Joseph: So, yeah. So I was wondering about that. So then, um, what I like to ask them in inset, What are the, the, the business models or what is the, I guess the manufacturing method?

Is it people who are say, you know, they started by manufacture something in their own house, in their own basement, and they found their way to a warehouse, or they're doing manufacturing at a plant. 

[00:15:08] Chase Clymer: Uh, are kind of like experiencing this in their business. They've got product market fit. They're doing a couple hundred grand a year.

Uh, you know, they're not far away from doing a million dollars and they've been doing it all themselves, maybe a few trusted partners, you know, the team is small, like less than five usually. Uh, and they're wearing a dozen hats at a time. They, you know, they're, they're bopping in and out of the business and they're kind of like, you know what, I've got this to this point.

Like, I, we need to bring in some people that actually know what they're doing and that's where we come in. Um, and it usually is, uh, a lot of work on the way. Uh, in an effort to increase the conversion rate and in an effort to increase the average order value. And then once the website's in an amazing place, we're going to turn up the gas by increasing traffic, you know, more sessions, better retention, marketing, better targeting on paid.

Um, and you know, it's a pretty simple framework that we operate on a, we call it the brand scaling framework. Uh, but it, it does the business dude. It, it really helps these people cook and it's very simple to understand. And all the other cool KPIs that you're gonna throw at me. Like, what about this? What about this?

I'll be like, this is how they play it all. It all just makes sense. And it's funny, we've been doing this thing since day one, and it's just evolved into something that I can name over the last couple of years. All of our clients usually hold an inventory. Um, they've got, you know, some flagship products, they've got product market fit.

They usually got a funnel that's working for them. Maybe not most optimized, but they've got a real business. You know what I mean? This is their full-time gig usually. Um, it's not something that they're doing part-time.

[00:16:32] Joseph: One of the things I wanted to ask you as well. You know, for my own sake, I wasn't entirely sure. You know, in this space we do talk to a lot of people in, in the job tripping room. So what are the things I wanted to ask you about was, um, was the product research, a portion of it now, again, that wasn't bearing in mind that at least some of it was related to drop shipping, but that's okay.

We can still ask this question anyways. I would say that, you know, these businesses that they, they do have. Uh, a great deal of investment and a lot of stake in their product. And once they're there working with you at that point, it's, uh, they've they found their market fit. There's some security to it.

And now it's about the, the expansion. So I know client confidentiality and full effect. What has been the research method for them? Is it uh, straightforward as them even testing the product on themselves and saying, Hey, actually, I kind of like this, this works for me. Maybe it'll work for? 

[00:17:25] Chase Clymer: I can shed some light on that, but I will have to kind of preface this with like, so I like to view businesses as in kind of like three stages of growth, right?

So there's like zero to one. That's your startup phase. You're trying to find product market fit. Then you've got like one, like one to two is like your scaling phase. And then above that is like, you're an aunt, your enterprise, you're just crushing it. Like you're now you're worried about like, how do I leverage my tax incentives and like how to, you know, dude, money, money magic to make things work better for you.

Like that's a whole different game. So we kind of hang out in that scaling phase. Um, so your question about product research and all that stuff, uh, and, and finding product market fit, you know, would be kind of in that zero to one stage, which is isn't something that we as an agency do. And then I also believe that.

I don't think an agency can help you in that stage at all. Honestly, I think your buddies, your money is going to get 10 X returns. If you invest it in yourself, you read books, you take courses, you understand it. You don't have to be the best Facebook guy ever, but if you understand how it works, you can have a way better conversation with a Facebook marketing expert or with an agency or with a consultant or a freelancer, whomever you're hiring.

Like, I believe that you should understand this stuff at a top level before you hire a, but going back to kind of that zero to one state. All you got to do is iterate on your messaging, iterate on your offer, try to sell your product that you believe in. Um, but your question about like, kind of, where are the, where are these people finding their ideas?

Um, actually pull, I'll pull some of this from the podcast. I kind of asked this question all the time on the podcast. Like, where'd you get the idea for the brand? And it's usually usually a flagship product and they experienced the problem in their life and they tried to find a solution. Couldn't find a solution.

And they said, let's do it. And you know, then they, they started kind of asking the market if they had the same problem, if they liked the solution that they were, you know, that they were proposing, um, and kind of iterating upon it from there before launching kind of their, their flagship product or their, their MVP of their products.

Uh, sometimes through Kickstarter sometimes through just launching the brand and getting going, you know, I I've interviewed a bunch of people on the podcast. They're like, yeah, we launched our brand of crickets, no sales, like, you know, we didn't know anything. Uh, but they just kept at it and they figured it out over time.

Um, these days though, with clients that are working with us, oftentimes they're asking their customers like, what do you want? Like, what do you want to see from us? Like, Hey, you really like our t-shirts. You want to see a hoodie? Do you want to see a jacket? You don't see jeans, you know, and they're, their customers are kind of telling them what they want to see from it, you know, with, with other products, you know, uh, not in the clothing space.

It's pretty much the same concept. It's like, what, what else would you like to see? Like you guys bought X, like, would Y make sense for you or we're thinking about. Uh, so once you kind of have customers, they're your number one resource? Just ask them what what's next. 

[00:20:06] Joseph: Interestingly, one of the things that I do too is, you know, I like to check out say like Instagram posts or Twitter, and, you know, one of the things that you had mentioned on your Twitter is that you are, um, even in interviewing some of your clients as well, just to learn.

From it just, as you say, you know, they're, they're asking their customers what they think and in that same way, you know, you're doing just to make sure that I'm clear on it. You know, you're doing customer interviews for your clients as well, is that right?

[00:20:31] Chase Clymer: We've been working on our client avatar for a long time.

So this is kind of really agency insider, like, you know, inside baseball here. Uh, so for our agency, we've been really focused on like, who do we do our best work for? And it's that kind of that scaling brand that I was talking about earlier, like they've got product marketing. But they don't know. They don't understand how to break through a million dollars a year.

They have no idea how to get to $10 million a year. And that's like, what we do best is like, we partner with those people and we kind of own the nerdy stuff until they can start to bring it in house, like getting fired because they're bringing stuff in house is like awesome to us. That's what we want in doing that.

I've been interviewing some of our clients and like finding in their words, like what the problems were that we were solving. And not only is it helping us like understanding. Uh, you know, the value that we're bringing to our clients, it's like the way that we should be talking to. And kind of our, our copy on our website and in our marketing and stuff like that, client interviews are like just a silver bullet.

Just go, it doesn't matter what business you're in. Ask your best customers. Like, what did we do? Why'd you pick us? What can we do better? You know, what would you say to someone that was thinking about working with us? Like just those four questions would like. So much to go on. 

[00:21:35] Joseph: And this, uh, leads into really one of my favorite questions to ask on the program.

It's about the ability for that data to be collected in aggregate. You know, you can, if you were to say, just interview one person, you would get one set of answers, but, you know, tying into what we described earlier. You know, you have, you can have, you can have a lot of different takes on it. So when you've talked to, you know, a great deal of your customers and you've collected all of their answers, what have you been noticing in aggregate?

Or have you noticed patterns or trends or consistencies across, uh, some of what they're saying, and I know it just means specifically about, you know, what this thing about your business. I'm curious to hear about that too, but I'm also curious to hear about. You know, they're consistent with the issue is that they're having and what patterns keep occurring, uh, across, uh, multiple clients. 

[00:22:19] Chase Clymer: Yeah. Uh, well, I mean, I, I guess I only got the insights with our agency clients to share really, cause we don't do these sort of insights for our clients currently. Um, but. It's surprising to hear just getting back to people in a timely manner was like number. Like, they were like, you guys are on it, you respond like you don't have the answer, but you say like, you just let me know that you've seen it like that.

That's, you know, that's worth it to us. Um, and then another thing that came up a few times was like this concept of people were saying they were Shopify experts and they just weren't. And you know, we eat, we eat, sleep and breathe that stuff like we've been in the partner program forever. Like we. You know, people on speed dial, we can call when things go up, go rise.

Like we are ingrained in that community. Uh, so it was, it was fun to kind of see that be validated as well. 

[00:23:09] Joseph: I want to give back to their brand scaling framework is that is, you know, one of the, uh, one of the key factors to, you know, what it is that you do. Uh, and this is the kind of thing I imagined this can take, maybe it could take an hour as maybe you can take a maybe, maybe you can explain in 10 seconds, but I'll keep it quick. I I'm, I'm a big fan of like that, that middle territory, you know, like not that big in size, but we don't, we also, I can't keep you forever, but yeah, I, it's something I definitely want to hear about and how, how 

[00:23:34] Chase Clymer: it functions. 

It doesn't matter what you do. It's, you're selling a service, you're selling a product, you know, physical, digital, whatever, what drives people to purchase is getting value out of that investment. Right. So, um, what drives people to work with an agent? Usually is an increase in top-line revenue, more sales, more customers, more, whatever.

Right. It's just more, they want more for whatever they give you. Um, so we kind of distill all of our projects down to three KPIs, right? And this is kind of what the brand scaling framework is all about. So the KPIs we care about average conversion rate in sessions. Uh, we use those terms because those are the terms that are used in the backend of Shopify.

Um, and I'll kind of dig in a bit more as to why those are important now. So you take, let's just say, you look at those numbers for the last 90 days, last 30 days, whatever. Um, if you multiply them all together, you're going to really, really close to what your sales were for that time period. Right. Because it's all aggregate of, of the averages.

Um, so as you use that as your baseline, let's dig into each KPI and talk about like what we could do there. Right? So the first one that we look at in tandem, like the first two, we kind of look at in tandem, cause it's basically, we're going to improve the website. So the first two KPIs are average and conversion rate, right?

So there's usually with these brands that we're working with, they're on some premium theme that they've been on forever that they've installed and uninstalled about 150. And their code looks like spaghetti and it's very slow. Uh, and right now, like the huge thing is with online store 2.0, coming out, they're like, how do I use that?

And we're like, well, good luck with all this weird nonsense in here from trying 18 review apps. So usually, you know, there's a lot of work that goes into, you know, possibly cleaning it up nine times out of 10. It's like, we're going to start from scratch because it's actually quicker to do that. 

Also here's a surprise for everybody. I'm going to tangent here. It's usually easier to start from a brand new theme than it is to fix something that's broken. It's honestly like asking someone to fix like your leaky shower, but not letting them like, take the stuff off the walls and actually fix the problem.

Uh, you gotta like go down to the bare stuff and like, rebuild it again if you want to do it. Right. Um, so anyways, first two things we're tackling average order value, conversion rates. So there's a lot of stuff you can do to increase conversion rate. Honestly, I can't give you tactics here because it's really case by case.

So things you really want to look at speed, uh, your sites, and it's super important for. Um, your, your, your, uh, the structure of your navigation. So searching filtering, you want to be, you want to get me as your customer for your product as fast as possible. And, you know, if your one thing I noticed all the time is if you have like, kind of higher skew count, like you should let me find only the black products or only the products that are in my size.

We're only the products that solve this problem. Like you need to have your skew, your filtering, and your sorting on point and Shopify of put that out now with online store, put 2.0, but it's still probably a custom feature to do it the right way. Um, but you know, honestly you want to shorten the customer journey.

You want to go from the homepage to the collection page, to the product page, to the checkout as quickly as possible, like that is that's going to help your conversion rate go up. Uh, and then just answer your customer's questions before they have them on, in that journey. That's going to increase your conversion rate.

So that's really strategic ways to do it. And the tactics are just so different between each brand, each theme, each design. So I wish I could give you guys like, go do these four things. I, I can't, you know what I mean? I have to see what you guys are working with. Um, and then, so that's kinda, the first thing is conversion rate.

The second thing is average order value, right? So this comes down to your offer. It's your offer kind of also plays into your version rate, but, uh, it's your upsells, your cross sells, uh, and your bundles are pretty much the only ways that you're going to increase your average order value. And so there's a lot of places that do that.

Uh, you know, I, I spent a good afternoon about two or three weeks ago looking through. Three or four dozen Shopify stores like high end stores doing millions of dollars a year, um, and, uh, kind of seeing what they were doing. So the, the commonalities that I saw is a lot of upsells are starting to take place.

First place you'll see them is on the product page. They also are usually bundles are usually introduced on the homepage to kind of let people know that they exist. Um, but something I saw that was a lot, like kind of common would be like, if you had a single other product, having an upsell on the product page, a higher amounts of that product or like a bundle of that product exists.

You know, there's always pop-ups that come up as well. You know, that's one way to do it. Uh, I see a lot of people putting now upsells and cross-sells within the. There's a lot of cool stuff that you can do. Now, if you know what you're doing, you can actually do upsells and cross-sells within the checkout itself.

And post-purchase all of those can help increase your average order value. Uh, but with all of those things, don't just go out and install every app to do an upsell, because the way to do upsells and cross-sells correctly is you need to have the experience seem like it should be there because people like to buy, but they don't like to be sold.

So if this is like a jarring experience and it takes me out of the transaction mindset to be like, what the heck's going on here? This doesn't look on brand. This they're just asking for more money. You're probably going to see a decrease in conversion rate. Um, but if you do it on brand and you know, in a way that isn't, you know, ugly or like jarring, like you're going to see an increase in that really comes down to a strategic approach and like that one's even far more difficult to help, like give you specific tactics to do a then conversion rate because it's like, it really depends on your products.

Like. Uh, $1,500 couch. Like, no, one's buying two couches. You can't do a BOGO deal there. Uh, but if you're doing, you know, t-shirts like, all right, you know, that probably is something to where a BOGO would work. Uh, so it's really specific down to like the types of products that you're selling to. Like, what's the strategy behind that.

And then you start to iterate things and then again, you got to kind of test on them all. Uh, and there's the bad news bears and all that stuff is your website's never done. You're gonna be testing all this stuff forever and like keep trying new things to try to make it perform better than the old thing.

That's the big spiel on the first two KPIs of the brand scaling framework, average order value and conversion rate. So we, we do all that work there, which is usually in building an awesome website or taking a website that's pretty sweet and making it a lot better. So that's like the first part of it.

And then the second part of it is now let's pour gas on that fire. Was it increased the sessions, uh, and that usually comes down to, you know, own the marketing or retention marketing. Those words are being thrown around a lot lately, which basically means email and SMS. So you got, you better have all your automations in place.

Like if you don't stop listening right now, go set up all your automations. You know, marketing automation is awesome and it just will help. You know, print money while you're sleeping. Uh, but then on top of that, you need a pretty good strategy for your campaigns on all that stuff. Um, and so you kind of, you need to make sure you have that for like your own marketing or your retention marketing, which is like, you know, an SMS again.

And then also you gotta have a good page strategy. You've got to, you know, advertise where your customer is actually. So like if I've got a motorcycle brand that sells tailpipes, I don't think that I should be on Pinterest. Like, just be smart and thinking about where your customers are with your advertising.

Um, but you know, if you're selling jewelry, I think Pinterest would probably crush it for you. Like you gotta, you gotta go where they are. Be wary about your, your KPIs on kind of like your margins and what you can afford to spend to acquire a new customer. Um, but you know, if you can increase your traffic by a hundred percent is not difficult to do with doing a proper page strategy.

Uh, you can, you know, that's just going to double your sales in and of itself, but if you can increase your conversion rate and your average order value by 10 or 20%, these things are compounding. So now you're up to like 150 to a hundred percent improvements on your brand. 

[00:31:14] Joseph: I was wanting to applaud to you there for that.

That was a, uh, that was an experience and a half to, to, uh, and I, and I wrote down a number of things that crossed my mind as you were, as you were describing it, one of them is cause you know, you're, you're describing the, the process of your upsells and cross-sells, um, post. Uh, upsells as well. I was, I was hoping you would mention that too, because I wanted to hear your take on that.

And this came to my mind, which is also one issue that I'm wondering if you've, uh, you've seen a happen where let's say I'm interested in purchasing a product and I'll, and I'm just going to say a face cream, because I think that might be a, a relevant way to characterize this example. And then by the time I've gone to check out, there has been a number of upsells and they all seem to either be like, oh, you know, you need like the pre-phase cream, but then they like the post, a face wash face cream. And what ends up happening is that they've actually sold me out of the initial product because now the impression that I get is that this product is no longer all I need in order to actually have the satisfying experience that I'm looking for.

Now, it's like, okay, now I get it. If I have, if I buy all of these, then I'll be in good shape. But if I miss out on even one of them, now I'm basically screwed over. And I'm wondering if you've ever encountered a situation like that, where the upsells and down sells and cross. Um, have actually diminished the selling power of the product that they're trying to.

[00:32:30] Chase Clymer: I really like your example, because it allows us to get a little more tactical on like how, how we do this. So for that particular thing, I would say that their funnel shouldn't probably be just for that the single or face cream, their funnel should be for the bundle. Right? Like if you're trying to, I'm assuming you're a new customer, right?

So the. You should have like a new customer bundle, you know, it's like you get the X, Y, Z, and like the scrubbing pad too. And it's a discount cause you're getting them all together. That should be like your, your, your, your main funnel there when you're acquiring a customer. And then over time, you just try to sell them to the replacements.

And then I think within kind of what you're talking about though, like if I'm coming and I just want to have this one thing, I think the copy should be positioned in a way, uh, where the awareness of. Of it not being the only thing they need, like should be implied. Um, but I, you know, it does come down to like very, very particular copywriting, which is unbelievable difficult and important in e-commerce. 

[00:33:27] Joseph: The next one that I wanted to follow up on was the post-purchase. And so, you know, we, uh, we did have a conversation not too long ago about, uh, about post-purchase and what, um, what my finding was the products or the offers that are being marketed, you know, after somebody has converted, have to be of a specific nature it's because if you want to have that surprise and delight, but you don't want people to feel like, well, why don't you tell me about the sooner?

What, what about it sooner? And, um, uh, what we found was. The, the kind of products that they sell, tend to promote the lifestyle. I was, it was almost as if, if I'm committed to this, now this product will help that. And to use this an example of specific, it will say magic spoon, right? There's only people on cereal.

So the most purchase upsell that they go for is a spoon and a bowl. So somebody says, well, yeah, I'm going to go back. I'm going to buy more. I think I would like a spoon and a bowl that goes with it ends it's helps to cement the, the lifestyle change. And that's been my finding. I'm curious to hear about your, your finding, you know, what's really worked for the, post-purchase a part of the funnel.

[00:34:28] Chase Clymer: Uh, I mean, so many things can work like again, there's no one way to do it. Uh, I think that a fun thing that I've noticed is having a. Kind of a one-time offer something with like a time limit to it, uh, with some soup, some sort of super steep discount. If your margins can kind of afford it, um, you know, selling. Adding one more t-shirt to a box that you're still profiting on and not having to eat another shipping is just more profitable than selling two of the t-shirts for full price and eating the shipping. Usually, you know, another thing that I've seen, uh, you know, let's talk about face, face creams and stuff is having people be like, oh, like, do you want to, these are our new product lines.

You can get these samples. You can only buy these samples. As, as, as post-purchase, you can't buy them in the store, they're only ad-ons as it could be because you've already purchased. We can add these in for dirt cheap, if you want to sample, uh, these other things that we're bringing to market. Um, I've seen that be super successful too.

Like, you know, say you're buying a $30 Facebook. Um, and they're like, Hey, like we're, you know, this is our next product line coming out. Like, do you want to test that? We have a sampler of the exfoliating thing for five bucks. You want us to throw it in? And they're usually like, yeah. So here's a, here's a crucial thing about upsells.

You usually, aren't going to see something. Uh, unless you're in a lower, it's like 30, $40. You can, maybe you can double the cart size. That's pretty easy to do, but if you're at $120, you're not doubling that cart size, but you can increase it like 10, 20 bucks. So you got to be thoughtful about the types of offers and products that you're putting in front of people.

So if I'm buying one t-shirt and offering to me to buy a bundle, like buy two, get one free, that's an easier upsell than trying to get me to, you know, buy 10 more shirts or something like that. I'm never going to do that. Um, but you know, if I'm already spending 120 bucks and you're like, oh, like, do you want to add.

A pair of boxers, like for 10 bucks, like, alright, that kinda makes sense. Uh, you gotta be kind of thoughtful about what offers you're giving for the price point of view, the products. 

[00:36:23] Joseph: The next one I wanted to follow up on is a, it was the third part of it, which were the, the sessions. And I just want to get a little more clarity on the parameters of it.

So, first of all, very 1 0 1 question, but I got to ask it, which is, you know, a session is, you know, the, the moment that they come to the website to the moment that they leave the website, that's what a session. 

[00:36:42] Chase Clymer: I know the definition exists in the backend. Like you can hover on the name, I think, in the back of the Shopify and I'll tell you what it is, but, uh, off the top of my head, I believe it is unique visitors, basically.

[00:36:50] Joseph: Okay. Yeah. Because, because the thing that I was, um, I wasn't interested in knowing, and I suppose, um, further up on is, um, how, how well, you know, we're able to really discover this whether via, um, expertise or through looking at the Shopify dashboard is the. You know, the, the activity level, the, the length of it, or even just the intensity of how many times they're clicking around, how often, then you can see maybe a 70, you go into, to the FAQ page or they're taking the about page, or they're really looking around the website before they make their decision. How often you can see people are just going directly through the final, as intended going right to the purchase and heading out in, in, in no time flat. Is that the kind of thing that you're also liberals able to look at? 

[00:37:26] Chase Clymer: So I just realized, I gave the wrong definition sessions are sessions. So it isn't like it isn't unique, uh, customers, because I usually customers are coming back two or three times before the purchasing within like within a month.

Um, it's like each unique, like I'm on the website now playing around then a leave and then that's one. And then two weeks later I come back and do it again. Like that's another session, uh, but it isn't page views. So it's not counting like every page. I see it just the amount of times I'm interacting with websites during that particular timeframe within the Shopify backend.

I see some stuff, but if you're going to nerd out on it and really dig into the weeds, like you got to get into Google analytics.

[00:38:06] Joseph: Now that Shopify has upgraded to version 2.0, we needed to make sure we were up to speed. So we've released the version 4.0 to ensure that we're 100% equipped to take advantage of the revolution. If you haven't upgraded your store head on over, and if you haven't gotten started now is a good time as any.

Going back to the beginning of the, uh, the brand scanning framework and discussing the issue that, um, our websites have. Um, you're, you know, you're better off, um, you know, starting over, you know, rebuilding it. Um, the example that stuck in my mind, um, because you know, you, you mentioned the shower, but what stuck out to me was actually a very specific example.

It reminded me of a next door neighbor. We had well across the street, near it, that we had had a van for years and years and years. And you know, the longer somebody has a car or van. The more it's going to cost to maintain it and parts become harder to acquire, but the countervailing to that was actually the sentimental value of it and wanting to, you know, hold onto this car and maybe there were some advantages to it.

We're not really sure, but, so this is one of the silly questions we're going to ask, but I'm, I'm, I'm dying to know, is that, have you actually encountered this issue where there is some sort of sentimental value or there is some limiting factor that keep them from wanting to agree to rebuilding it in the first place.

[00:39:19] Chase Clymer: I have, but here's, here's the. It's usually with a younger brand. Uh, it's usually with someone that's like, this is my baby. I've built this site myself. You know what I mean? That's where they have this sunk cost fallacy of like, whatever they're working with. But once you kind of open their eyes to, this is how the money math works out.

Like, are you willing to kneecap the growth of your business because you think that this palette color palette or this navigation structure or this site design is actually. Like once you start showing them data and it, and trying to pull it away from like, you know, the feelings and towards the facts, you know, it, it's definitely a little bit easier to kind of help people see the light of day, but here's inside baseball again, like not, everyone's a great client, not everyone is going to be like ideal to work with.

And sometimes people are crazy. Like, that's just, that just, isn't what it is. And then kind of another thing is the, all these numbers that I'm talking about, these KPIs, you know, you have to have data first before you can do it. So let's go back to, like, I kept saying, pour gas on it, right? Like let's then we're dead.

We're going to go to the, then we're going to go to traffic and work sessions. We're going to pour gas on the. You don't have a fire. I'm just wasting gasoline. You know what I mean? You have to have something before you can make it better. Um, so that's something I really want people to listen to is like, if you don't actually have product market fit, if you're not getting organic sales and organic traffic, If you don't have a business spending more on Facebook ads, aren't going to help.

Like you need to, you need to solve that underlying problem. You need to figure out like, do people actually care about this product? And if not, why? And can you just change the positioning of it to, to, to fix, you know, the perception of it? Or is there something fundamentally. With your product, because it doesn't matter if you hire the best Facebook marketer in the world, if your product is trashed. No one's gonna buy it. 

[00:41:06] Joseph: So you said it was about, you know, the organic traffic and the organic sales and, uh, and that, and that sticks out to me because, um, what I'm, what I'm imagining is if somebody were to focus entirely on paid traffic ads and forgive me, I don't know if that counts as organic. I don't think it does.

I think organic counts as, you know, activity, community development, word of mouth. Even having say an Instagram profile, having a Facebook profile. So how would you compare the, um, the necessity of the organic traffic and the organic organic sales versus the, the, the paid ad traffic and the paid ad sales?

Isn't a matter of, I mean, again, I'm sure this is a case by case basis, but I'm, I'm imagining that what you're really want to see is that the traction that they're reaching for is sticking that people are sticking around and there's, and there's momentum being built in that organic. 

[00:41:53] Chase Clymer: Yeah, and this is definitely something that I'm sure other people disagree with, disagree with me on, but I don't think it is a good idea to try to build a brand.

With paid media being like your main pillar of growth, because it is so expensive. Facebook is expensive, especially now with the iOS crap that like, it's hard to really know what's going on. It's a lot of gut and trust. Now your marketing strategy is make it work on Facebook and Instagram ads. I think you're going to go bankrupt.

Honestly, I think there are smarter ways to do it these days. And usually my advice to people is like, don't spend a dollar on paid traffic until you've made a hundred thousand dollars. Like literally, like that seems like a giant number, but it's only 10 grand a month. You can do that through community, through Instagram, through, you know, organic stuff, you know, I think.

Unutilized channel people often skip straight to Facebook and Instagram when they could probably just take that same budget and investment in Cisco seed influencers. Like that is going to just gangbusters. It's going to go look so much better for you. 


[00:42:53] Joseph: I'm happy to hear that. And it's funny cause it, you know, it ties into what we were discussing earlier. Um, a lot of, we had a lot of areas of opinions, even for my own, for my own sake, I can spend all day naming my limiting factors or Lord knows I'm not hurting for them. But what I, what I appreciate about this is the relationship between wanting to have that, or, you know, that organic momentum has to come from a business.

That really means what it says and a product that, um, that is out there to, to, to solve problems, even going back to basics really the first things that people can do. Yes. Okay. You know, go to influencers, um, you know, work on their, their social media profile. Would you say those are really like the, the beginning building blocks or have you noticed, and even more basic step one. 

[00:43:38] Chase Clymer: I've interviewed brands on the podcast that they went into, like Reddit forums or Facebook groups. Yeah. Talking to people about the problem that their product solved and organically we're like, well, maybe this would help you like, and that's how they got their first 10,000 customers is super expensive to do Facebook. And especially when you're a small brand, you probably don't know how to do Facebook and Instagram that well yourself, and you cannot afford someone that actually knows how.

So you're just going to end up working with someone that's lying to you and they're going to make the money and you're going to spend money on no results. 

[00:44:06] Joseph: So with people who are going onto Reddit and are having those conversations, I, again, this is one of those case by case things, but are they say using their, their brand name as their as, or a user profile, or they actually just go on, on as themselves and just saying, hey. 

[00:44:21] Chase Clymer: Or people want to buy from people and like, Try to pull the wool over someone's eyes be like, Hey, like I know no nonsense here. Like I've this is my brand. But like, I think this could solve your problem. Like if you have any questions, I'm here to answer them. Honestly, in that zero to one stage is when you do the things that will not scale. And that's having conversations, real conversations with real people about your product and getting real time feedback.

And that's going to allow you to iterate on your messaging on your offer on your to really help you get to that next level. 

[00:44:48] Joseph: But that, that's amazing. I mean, that's a, that's definitely a huge takeaway for myself too. And it speaks to the storyline where, you know, it seems like no matter how many people I talk to, there's always going to be a new approach or a new angle to it to explore this with.

So there was one more thing that I wanted to ask. And this is by far the silliest one out of the bunch, uh, which was your, you had described that some of the people have. Like 12 review apps. And I don't know how much of that was exaggeration or how much of that was actually, like I said, I actually get is how many, I don't even know that this overview apps on Shopify, honestly, but speaking about the, the overall issue here is what exactly happens to somebody that drives them to, I mean, I can see like, Installing a number of apps.

Each one does fulfill as a specific role, but there's starting to be like an overlap where, you know, one is a UGC, but it leans into reviews. Whereas another is UGC leans into like, I don't know, um, uh, imagery and they start to overlap, but to pick out multiple apps that are all doing the same thing as what was the logic going through their mind?

[00:45:49] Chase Clymer: I can only make assumptions, but we have, we have definitely audited some websites where they had 30, 40, 60 apps installed some of them doing the same thing. And it's because people don't know what they don't know most of the time. Uh, founders are creative people. They are passionate about solving their problem.

The problem with their products. They're not technical people. They're not e-commerce experts. They're not advertisers, they're not marketers. They don't know what they don't know. Right. So, uh, Shopify does a great job of like marketing this idea of there's an app for that, an apple solve that problem. Tell you like that.

The second you install an app, it installs another JavaScript call to your website that inherently slows down your, your theme. And they also don't tell you that when you press on install, that only thing that happens is that app loses access to your store. That code is still in your thing. And it's still slowing your site down and that call still exists.

So every time you install an app, you are slowing your site down. I wish there was a big red button that says, are you sure this will slow your website down right? There should be. But there isn't, there's free trials for all these apps. So they're like testing three or four apps to see which one they like, and then they settle on it.

Uh, not knowing that they've got four times the amount of code doing the same thing, oftentimes conflicting with each other and also making any developer's life, a nightmare down the line when you're doing. Fix or QA some issue. Um, so I think it's just kind of goes with, you know, they're not technical.

They don't know what they don't know, and they didn't realize that it was causing an issue. So, uh, I believe there's a second part of your question that I I'm kind of drawing a blank on. 

[00:47:24] Joseph: Uh, no, that, that more or less, I think summarize it and actually end then some, um, because I think for some people we even gone so far as to realize, okay, this is getting redundant, they remove it.

The, the lingering effects of that are still are still, uh, impacting the website. And I think that's a pretty important takeaway. And I would that's that's when, for me. 

[00:47:41] Chase Clymer: Yeah. And here's another, just to let you know, uh, if you're listening to this and be like, that sounds like me, I should probably hire someone to get rid of all that code.

That is the worst job in the world. And nobody wants to. And they're probably going to say we should probably just start over. All right. 

[00:47:56] Joseph: Well Chase. Uh, the clock is ticking. I don't have it for very much longer. Um, I've enjoyed, um, the, the conversation so far, there is, uh, one last thing that I wanted to talk about.

This is one of the, um, uh, the bits of material that you shared. One of the questions that I get to ask, uh, and I'm glad I do, because I think this is going to be a fun one to wrap up with, but, um, you, you talk about imposter syndrome and. You know, that's, that's, that's an issue that I think each, each person faces, I've talked to some people that got into like the seven figure range to eight figure range, and they still have that guttural anxiety about, you know, what am I doing?

Uh, I'm not, I'm not secure. I'm taking a massive risk. So w what is it, what is it to you? And, you know, how has it affected, you know, what you do when you are? 

[00:48:36] Chase Clymer: Oh, yeah. I mean, I'm on this podcast, just shooting from the hip, saying the things I believe, but, you know, I could be wrong. Like I, who knows, man, I dunno, I've just done this enough.

And I've got the gift of gab. Like I try to believe in myself, but you know, sometimes I wake up, like, I don't know what I'm doing. Uh, you know, I'm running a business, I'm responsible for a lot of people's livelihoods got a lot of team members. It's scary. Uh, you know, but that's kind of comes with the entrepreneurship thing is, you know, your, your appetite for risk, you know, If you have that and you are willing to kind of bet on yourself.

You're going to have some amazing success in life, but I don't, I don't think that the, the kind of like a imposter syndrome ever goes away. Um, you know, we still deal with it. Uh, me and my partner founders, like I know people steps ahead of me that are also like, ah, I'm just, I'm still doing it. Like, I don't know why they're letting me do it, but here we are.

[00:49:29] Joseph: Yeah. I mean, you know, just to bring it back to the, the meta of the meta nature of what I talked about in the beginning, you know, even, even for me, you know, so far feedback has been pretty. Like I've had, you know, I've had a lot of people that say, gosh, I'm really, really happy with, uh, with the interview that you, that you did today.

And I'm like, thanks. But by the time the next interview rolls around, I'm like, I have no idea what I'm doing. I'm I'm, I'm, I'm out of my mind. I can't do this. Oh, he's here, he's here. He didn't cancel. So I, I go through it each time. And one thing that, uh, stuck and that helped out is, you know, when, when guests said, you know, the day you stop being nervous is the day you're going to move on to a new career.

Because I think that those, those fears and those concerns, they speak to. As someone who cares and who actually has a, has meaning and, and wants us to work. And, and, you know, it's, if I have to choose between two mindsets, which is a, uh, uh, oh my God. Oh my God. Oh my God. And then B oh my God. I think I'm going to go with a, oh, absolutely.

[00:50:24] Chase Clymer: I mean, I think, uh, the one thing that kind of helps with imposter syndrome is like, once you kind of do it a couple of times, it becomes second nature and you get a little less nervous about it. Um, but yeah, I think, yeah. Waking up every day and like having that hunger to learn and to do better. And you're always striving to be better, I think, in ponder.

And that's the cool thing about it. You don't believe that you're good enough. So you strive to learn and to be better. And I, yeah, I would agree like once that fire is gone, maybe you should think about doing something else, something else that intrigues you. 

[00:50:55] Joseph: So this is a good place to wrap it up. I know I gotta let you on outta here.

Um, so, uh, final thing to, to our audience. It's a two-part question one. If you have like a Chinese proverb or like a piece of advice or parting wisdom, you'd like to share, you're welcome to share it. And then let the audience know how they can look into what you do. Check out your content and check out your podcast.

I've listened to it myself. And, uh, I, I quite enjoy it. 

[00:51:17] Chase Clymer: Thank you so much. Ah, there is a little piece of advice and I'm literally drawing a blank on it. And I, I do believe it's like a Chinese or Japanese proverb or maybe it has something to do with the Toyota way. Anyways, 1% better every day is like, just, just try, just work on it.

Just, just keep iterating on it. Just keep going. Like you're never gonna build that amazing business overnight, but like if you sit down and you concept out like one piece of it one afternoon and the next day start working on names or something like that, like you will get there eventually. So just try to do 1% of whatever the goal is.

And then you've done three extra goal in one year. The next thing is where the heck do I exist on the internet? You can listen to more of my ranting and raves on our podcast. It's honestecommerce.co. We put out a podcast every Tuesday, usually interviewing brand founders. Um, and then if you think that you might be a good client to work with electric eye, you can check us out at electriceye.io.

Uh, you can just schedule an intro call with me. I'm the actual guy you talked to.

[00:52:10] Joseph: Fantastic. Well, uh, it just so happened that I had seen that method that you had talked about. I started like on YouTube two days ago. It was called Kaizen and it's yeah, yeah. It's about 1% each day. Okay, cool. Yeah. I, I, I'm a decent multi-tasker so I opened up YouTube in the corner and you're like, okay. Very Kaizen. Yep. Yeah, that's the one. All right. Well, uh, that's all that we've got for today. So to my audience, uh, as always, it is an honor and a privilege to collect this information and use it for my own benefit and then share it with all of you as well. Thank you all for your participation and, uh, Chase.

Thanks for your time today. There's a, there's some stuff there that really stuck out to me. So, uh, it's uh, it's definitely a lot for me to take away. Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for being here all the best to our audience. Take care, and we will check in soon.

Thanks for listening. You might've found this show on many number of platforms, apple podcasts, Spotify, Google play, Stitcher, or right here on Debutify. Whatever the case,. If you enjoy this content and want to help us thrive, please take a few moments to leave a review on apple podcasts or wherever you think is best.

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Written by

Joseph Ianni

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