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Emily Foreman, Carthook - Maximizing Your Post Purchase Potential

icon-calendar 2021-11-23 | icon-microphone 59m 28s Listening Time | icon-user Joseph Ianni
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While the last two episodes were all about mindset, manifestation and forming good habits, we're back in the trenches with Emily Foreman of CartHook. Her company transitioned from in-person to remote, an interesting story in it's own right. But we emphasize the unique value proposition of Carthook which is to ensure your post-purchase part of the funnel is utilized effectively or rather, at all. Every part of the funnel is important, that part you know, but what I think you'll get out of this episode is as clear an understanding of the importance and opportunity in post purchase that can be in an hour's time.

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Tags: #Debutify #carthook #postpurchase

[00:00:00] Emily Foreman: We've found that post-purchase is what works well, because there's not any risk of backfiring. You've already captured that initial purchase. So, you know, we use the example of like pre purchase. You can, that can maybe come off as spammy and you could potentially risk losing that initial purchase. And then you're out an entire order.

[00:00:28] Joseph: Well, the last two episodes were all about mindset, manifestation and forming good habits. We are back in the trenches with Emily Foreman of carthook. Her company transitioned from in-person to remote and interesting story in its own right. But we emphasize the unique value proposition of carthook, which is to ensure your post-purchase part of the funnel is utilized effectively or rather at all. Every part of the funnel is important. That part, you know. But what I think you'll get out of this episode is as clear and understanding of the importance and opportunity in post-purchase, that can be in an hour's time.

 Emily Foreman. It is good to have it here in Ecomonics. How are you doing today? How are you feeling?

[00:01:04] Emily Foreman: I'm doing well and feeling good. It's been a rainy day here in Florida. So it's kind of nice change of pace from the sun. 

[00:01:11] Joseph: Yeah. I mean, when I hear a rainy day in Florida, uh, just because of what I pick up in the news is anywhere between a light showering to, uh, we are currently airborne. 

[00:01:19] Emily Foreman: And it's either, you know, Florida, if anyone's familiar with it, it goes from zero to extreme in matter of seconds. Yeah, rainy days is not normal here.

[00:01:34] Joseph: One of the things, this is a side note, um, I always ask, you know, how are, how are things, how are you feeling? But I also asked that before richer on the recording, but I'm just debating, like, do I want to like, just wait on asking that before the recording start, and just be like, really like robotic and characteristically?

Yes, we will set this up anyways. So, uh, um, sometimes I'm a little too. Self-aware all right, here we go. I'm opening question is for you to tell us what do you do and where do you up to these days? 

[00:01:59] Emily Foreman: My name is Emily and I am the CEO at cart hook. Um, and at cart hook, we are a post-purchase offers app that work with Shopify brands to help them elevate their, their checkout strategies.

So that could be anywhere from increasing their customer lifetime value, increasing their AOV, elevating their conversions. So that's what I do have at this desk is, is kind of help the team build out the best post purchase offers app. 

[00:02:30] Joseph: And yeah, you're, uh, you're remote working and, and, and you and I have a similar situation where most of whom we work with are, uh, are, are a few bodies of water away.

[00:02:40] Emily Foreman: Yes. Yeah. So we are, we are all a hundred percent remote as of, I think a few companies that made that shift last year, uh, at the start of the pandemic. Fell into that remote life. And it worked out well for us. We had always had two offices. Our primary one was in Portland, Oregon, and then we had an office in Louviana Slovenia.

So we were very spread out and over the past year. A lot of us have ventured into new areas of the country. Um, I just recently moved from Portland to Florida and we have folks on the east coast and Pennsylvania, uh, Croatia we're we're all over. So time zone management. It is a valued skill here. 

[00:03:26] Joseph: I mean, I can't help, but ask a couple of, um, I guess you know, warm up questions about that.

So I'll, I'll go with two. One of them is when conducting, like, you know, that team meetings, where people are having them at different times of the day, you have people who are waking up, people who are, um, you know, sleeping, uh, he'd put in the middle of the day. Um, have you, do you notice say it, it could change, uh, it has an impact on the energy of the meeting and people at different points in their, in their psychology.

[00:03:53] Emily Foreman: Yeah, that's a good question. I haven't noticed that. And mainly because a lot of the people on their teams are typically within a two to three hour time difference from one another, um, at you. So it's the benefit of working with people in a similar time zone? Think of more of the struggle is my, my seats of where I deal with everyone.

So I'd say for the most part team meetings are pretty productive because we're all. In a similar time zone area where it comes to gets unique is during company meetings. So all hands, uh, it's the morning for some folks, it's a late evening for some, and it's mid-afternoon for others. So it's a very distributed work environment and, and so far so good.

It's been working out really. 

[00:04:41] Joseph: Yeah. Um, I I've attempted to get, cause I have to do, um, uh, morning meetings on Wednesdays and I've been tempted to just like, not take any more recordings on Wednesdays. Uh, just because, you know, there's there's days where I drink coffee for the joy of it. And then there's days like today where I actually need a cup of coffee, otherwise.

My, my levels are all over the place. So, uh, we're gonna, we're gonna look at some, some stats and some data just to see if there's a correlation between the Wednesday recordings and, uh, and the response for them. And then the other one that I was wondering too, and I, and I haven't really asked too many like pandemic questions lately.

I think for the most part, I got most of those out of my system, but I am interested about this one, which is when you were meeting in person, you know, when you had your offices in Portland. And I think it's key to, I guess, know how many people were there. So if it was just like two people, I'm not sure the efficacy of the question, but. 

[00:05:30] Emily Foreman: We had quite a few. So I, you know, at one point there were around 12, 12 of us that were in, in an office. So carthook relatively is a small company. Um, but yeah, at one point there were. 1212 to 14 people when we were working in the office. So going from that to your home office was the shift. 

[00:05:52] Joseph: Yeah. And, and I have to wonder just about the, the, you know, the change in the creative process, because I do think that a lot can be lost when people are no longer in the same room and are bouncing ideas off each other in a more pronounced way.

Um, so. I again, I'm keen to ask about this one too, which is if you had spotted any changes in the dynamic, or even in the way people were regenerating ideas, um, in person compared to what had happened after. 

[00:06:22] Emily Foreman: Yeah, that, that too is something that we were kind of always hyper aware of when moving to this remote life now.

So there, there's this thing of it's, it's hard to differentiate between when you should be working when you should. You know, I think early on a lot of us were just like, we've got to send it this laptop. I need to have slack show that I'm online. I have to like overly communicate what I'm doing and where I'm at.

And we kind of ebbed and flowed with how that worked out. There were some points where there was a lack of. Silence. Right. So you fall into, you know, you're six months into this quarantine locked down and it's, you know, mentally exhausting outside of work as well. And so being able to recognize that and acknowledge, like take breaks.

My concern is if you're getting your work done great. Um, it's harder now to, in a remote environment to collaborate you can't just turn and chat. Uh, you know, the director of marketing to ask a simple question, uh, you want to be thoughtful when you're slacking, because you don't want to interrupt somebody in their work week, even though we didn't think that same way when you're in the office, I'd easily pop my head over my laptop and flag someone down for a question.

You, you do miss that kind of a collaborative approach and really kind of chatting with your coworkers on a different level of it. Doesn't always have to be work. And I think now our interactions are very much. Questions about work, the little personal chatter in there, but really focusing on work. And then you're having your work-life balance really as a forefront too.

So you're not locked at your desk for 12 hours a day. You're in the same space as it. So yeah, collaboration, uh, we have more meetings, which is not terrible. Um, we encourage slack, slack communication. It's huge. That's what we, you know, that's our primary form of communication. But yeah, I have in terms of collaboration, I haven't seen a huge dip.

Uh, if not an uptick of us just connecting more and talking through more strategy approaches to the product. So it's been interesting. 

[00:08:28] Joseph: Yeah. I mean, one thing I wanted to share and then, uh, I'll, I'll, we're going to sink into the, uh, the functionality of your, by the way, I have had a bit of a hard time just locking down exactly what we, I call it, um, app or service, or can we call it app? Is that fine? 

[00:08:44] Emily Foreman: I call it an app. It's a Shopify app. So, or, or a plugin. So. 

[00:08:51] Joseph: Okay. Right. One of the things that I, that I noticed is the difference between, you know, being in a, uh, being in a building where, you know, there's, there's shifts and, uh, over here, it's really up to me to distinguish my, my shift time from my non shift time is I needed to put some of that pressure back on the table because the, the pressure of, oh, I gotta leave at four o'clock.

There's a lot of the building behind me, um, to, to make sure that things were getting done. Whereas here, you know, I would wake up. Yeah. Well, you know, depending on the day it'd be an 8:00 AM or 6:00 AM. And I think, well, I've got all day to do what I gotta do. And 11 o'clock rolls by. I still got most of the day I got, well, I usually go to sleep at 11.

I could push it to 12. So what I found was by actually starting my shifts in the evening, it recaptured some of that pressure because while I have to go to sleep, so there had to be a cutoff point for. 

[00:09:48] Emily Foreman: Yeah. So did you find it hard for you then to disconnect from work? If you're working later and doing, I don't know if you have like this wind down routine to get ready for bed, but I'm similar with you.

It's like I can get stuck on the schedule and start working and then you go to bed and you're just laying and your brain still just going. 

[00:10:06] Joseph: Yeah. Well, you know how, when, when people are, uh, you know, say like in kindergarten, how a kid will pour a bunch of paint, colors onto a sheet of paper and see who, I wonder what color I'm going to make, that it all just ends up being like sludgy brown issue.

Yeah. And that's, that's my, that's my mind at the time. Interesting problem. Um, and it w and it pulls solutions from a lot of places because it's about mindset. It's about health. It's about how I exercise it's about sleep. And I think there's a higher degree of. And I don't even have to think it, I know it's true of self-discipline of finding the right balance.

And, but it also, at the same time, it also has helped me identify all of these other problems in my life. And because I don't compartmentalize work as easily as I used to, because I would be in a physical compartment now that I it's it's led to a lot more self-growth. And so in the long run, I'm grateful for it.

But in the short run it's been a mess. 

[00:10:59] Emily Foreman: Yeah. I would say probably equal. Uh, it was a learning curve for sure. And I think I, for one, I'm still adapting to it and still figuring out what is a good routine for me. Um, and what's a healthy balance between working and not. 

[00:11:16] Joseph: It's a strange thing that we've, we, uh, we're, we're evolving to deal with, but I appreciate being able to talk about it.

We're going to switch gears here. So one of the things I actually really like about doing this show is we. We can go, uh, pretty high minded. Um, earlier on this week, I talked to a second time bird named John Mac, and we actually just talked about manifestation and spirituality. We don't get to talk about that too often on the show.

Um, but we also, uh, when we get to talk about today is what I would consider to be one of the more specific parts, because we're not just talking about the funnel, we're talking about a key element of the funnel, and we're going to start with. The question that I always ask for people who are, you know, um, either representing or in your case, the CEO slash representative of, uh, of your app, which is cart hook at its inception.

What problem was it, uh, observing unique in the marketplace that was going on solved and power. How is the process of solving it? 

[00:12:16] Emily Foreman: Yeah. So cart hook has a really fun history. So cart hook today is not what it was when it was initially launched. So, um, I stepped in as CEO earlier this year in January. Um, but the company was founded by Jordan gall.

Jordan gall was the founder and CEO and he, uh, you know, is an entrepreneur, has entrepreneur mindset created some online. Uh, sold that and found in his experience, working in e-commerce that there was a gap that needed to be filled with cart abandonment. Products and apps. So he built cart hook. Um, that initially was a cart abandonment email tool.

Um, but, and, and in that process of it slowly, you know, talking to merchants, familiarizing himself with the industry, shifted into focusing on, uh, the entire. So the current abandonment app was still a thing, but the focus went into the checkout and so cartel then evolved into a one-page checkout solution.

Plus post-purchase offers that we allowed merchants who use Shopify to implement a one-page checkout plus a one-click through post-purchase, um, app to their store. I joined in 2018 to start kind of building out the customer success and support teams. Um, and at that point we had this really great app we're evolving in the Shopify ecosystem, had a lot of really great solid brands, but wanting to build out our partnership with Shopify.

Late last year, finalize that. And we are now strictly a Shopify app that focuses on the post-purchase offers app. So we, um, evolve from giving customers, you know, filling that need of being able to craft a customizable checkout experience to now strictly working off the Shopify app and allowing. Shopify merchants to create upsell offers.

Bottom line is create new revenue, um, increase their AOV, and you know, it also increase their customer lifetime value. So really allowing the Shopify merchants to be creative with their, uh, checkout funnels. And that starts with implementing post-purchase. 

[00:14:44] Joseph: Okay. So, um, this is one thing that I wasn't aware of, um, base of what my producer had looked into, which was that initially it was more about, um, you know, cart, abandonment emails now, just so that I know, is that a factor in it continuously, or is it something that you've put in.

[00:15:02] Emily Foreman: That is, has been retired. So the cart hook recovery platform was retired a few years ago and, and similarly is that's going to happen with our one-page checkout product. So we now refer to that as our legacy. It's something that is in maintenance mode. All of our focus and investments are going into this new native Shopify app that is strictly, just post-purchase focused.

[00:15:32] Joseph: I have to wonder about the. I guess the, the thought process of, because for one white pivot and why not say like set up other apps and see if these other running, because I do understand that there are advantages to having multiple services so that you can cross pollinate a consumer activity. A lot of the other apps that we talked through, for instance, they usually have like multiple ones.

So was it a matter of resources was a matter of, you know, we know how we know where we're adept at. We know exactly what problem we're focusing on. Um, I'm just, uh, intrigued about the mindset. 

[00:16:04] Emily Foreman: There's a lot of history on that reasoning, why? And some that's it's like the business side of when you're dealing with Shopify.

And I think it strictly comes to really wanting to continue to grow our partnership and have access to more the API opportunities that we could get. If we built a direct integration out with Shopify rather than. Our legacy product in gentle terms, let's say it's just a hacky work around, right. It was a hacky work-around that allowed Shopify merchants to still use Shopify, but our checkout page.

And while that had its benefits, it had a lot of hurdles. Very complex on a technical side to set up. Um, so we're shifting into making, uh, post-purchase offers available to everyone. So you don't have to have a technical team. You don't need a developer to set it up. So filling that need of anyone who's looking to increase their AOV and their conversions.

We have an app for you. It's a, it's a pro it's approachable. It's not so overwhelming. You know, one of the first things we talked about for our legacy app was who is your developer, because you need it. And those are scary terms. And that's why we kind of had a small subset of brands. But now this new opportunity now open up or a public app on Shopify.

So that opens us up to more opportunities and the entire Shopify ecosystem where you've said that can allow that stacking of different apps to really boost a store's tech stack to help them optimize their, their store and their checkout experience. 

[00:17:40] Joseph: And you mentioned, um, what is, uh, I think a pretty significant limiting factor for a lot of people is how.

Heavily involved, a developer needs to be in order for somebody to run a consistent store. Some of it is, um, not really knowing the value of the developer and respectfully some will take advantage of that, some won't, um, and, and it goes both ways. Sometimes the developer doesn't value themselves too much and ended up being taken advantage of, so this problems.

And so what I, what I understand is this is part of a, of a larger strategy that I think Shopify is also working on too, which is, you know, they really, they want to encourage anybody who's selling anything to move on to Shopify. I've seen it in their branding. They, they, you know, they focus on showing the significance of local stores and how this isn't a replacement for that.

This is a way to elevate what they do and to broaden their market reach so that they can. Any customer who is a potential buyer of them and not just whomsoever happens to be walking along the block that day. 

[00:18:41] Emily Foreman: Yeah. It's just making your product more approachable to anyone because you're right.

The developer side of things, they can not be cheap and it's a big, it's an investment. And if you're a new Shopify store, that's just getting started. That's an a, that's just an investment that you can't afford to make at the time.

[00:18:59] Joseph: This came to mind and, uh, and I'm smiling. Cause I think this is going to be really interesting in speaking broadly about the. Uh, challenge for someone to say a seller. Um, we're just going to say they do textiles because I've always found there was a lot of amendment quality in saying, uh, textiles and, and, and they want to set up an online store.

And the first hurdle is even like, I guess, getting on the internet, you know, get getting on the Shopify. But there, I don't think that, um, cart hook or any app along those lines gets to be, um, exposed to, uh, at first usually shall, you know, Shopify is probably the first thing. So have you identified a, uh, I guess a mental level or a, even on a revenues, uh, level at what point people are even starting to discover it and, and also as well, I want to tie in.

Understanding of the significance of post-purchase. And so to, I guess, dovetail, that question is also to clarify for everybody just how significant post-purchase really is for anybody who happens to be at that point, that I'm saying hypothetically. 

[00:20:15] Emily Foreman: Yeah, exactly. So I would sort of find to the first.

We're not a magic solution. That's going to increase your revenue once you install. Right? So there's certain things. When we take an approach of like the example is we have a new store, they just signed up there. They have no traffic. So they have no revenue. They have no sales. We're not, we're not a good fit.

So we fill that need of a store that could be new, but they're, they've invested already in driving traffic to the store, their site. So they're, they've already got their top of the funnel strategy in place. So they've met their ad traffic. They have retargeting and place they have everything lined up and they're seeing checkouts happen.

So they have, you have to be making some sort of revenue in order to kind of implement our app because that helps with your, your strategy. Right? So when we're talking again to these new accounts, that's, you know, an easy positioning of implementing post-purchase and to see a quick way in is understanding also your products.

What's your best seller. That's a easy win to have as a discounted. Uh, post-purchase offer. So buying one of this, you can have a BOGO too, but you need to have sales in order to be able to then figure out your strategy. So if you're a brand new store, zero sales, we, um, aren't going to be a good fit right now.

But talk to us in three months when you're seeing, you know, orders come through and you have sales and you can see that momentum growing, then that's the perfect time to jump on and start thinking about your post purchase strategy because you don't want to wait. You want to get in on that now, so that can help grow your brand once you really take off and are successful.

[00:22:01] Joseph: Yeah, I think this is a, this is a exceedingly important takeaway. And one way that I would like to, I guess the thing about it is I was actually expecting to ask you about case studies a little bit later, but now I usually want to ask about case studies. I always defer to a client confidentiality, not pointing any fingers, but there was one time where I looked on the website and I saw.

You know, a website, like a business that was being promoted. So I asked, uh, the, the guests about the business and the guests is like, well, how did you know about that? Like, cause it's on your website and he's like, oh, we gotta, we gotta, we gotta like texting somebody. Like we gotta cut this up. So with that in mind, I would like to, uh, I guess, uh, contextualize some of your answer is if, uh, as far as you can divulge, what has stuck out to you as an ideal example of when people should be signing.

[00:22:49] Emily Foreman: A customer example that we have is this one is not a case study, but a brand that is very well known that was a deodorant brand. So they were a customer of us. So a direct to consumer deodorant brands that used our product. Um, and they only had one offer and it was a very simple offer of a trial size of dealer.

And that's all, that's all it was. And it was extremely successful in the conversion rate because it just made sense. So again, you, it was a brand that was pretty well established. So it had been around, I want to say it launched a year ago, really invested a lot in the marketing. So they got their brand well established.

And then they're taking a look to say, how now? How can I make more money, right? So how can I take what I'm doing now and implement it? And it's a simple task of, they had the traffic, they had the checkouts, they have that revenue and implementing a simple $2 travel deodorant, um, converted at around. I want to say the last check was, it was around like 70%.

So it's, it's it's again, when we go back to your initial question on who is the right fit for. It is kind of all across the board, but you have to know, you have to know your store, you have to know your product. And so I hope that answers your question without yeah. But yeah, that would, that's probably our biggest win and we have several other like the large, you know, brand that's in the golf club industry.

So it's a high priced item. Um, but it works well with post-purchase because it's, they're filling it in with an accessory. 

[00:24:39] Joseph: Um, would you say that your, your target market, um, is, uh, largely B2C or is there a, a B2B component as well? 

[00:24:48] Emily Foreman: So we're, we're primarily direct to consumer that's our good sweet spot.

So, um, that works out really well. That works out with, um, our. I wouldn't, as I'm drawing, I'm trying to think of, do we have a sweet spot with an industry like health and wellness does really well. We ha we have a few, uh, consumables that do really well. So it's kind of all over the place in the industry side of things on who works, who works great.

It's. It's again, understanding your product and then anything could work. 

[00:25:18] Joseph: Well, I'd like to share an assessment that I had with it again in, when I was looking into this. So, um, being a millennial, uh, there are certain brands that love marketing to me, and one of them is magic spoon, and I've been on the, I've been on the cusp a few times.

Uh, Cheerio's is a hard act to follow, but if you're listening to magic spoon, don't give up. Um, and, and I saw that that was one of the ones that you would use as a, as an example. So what I was trying to ascertain about the, uh, the post-purchase component is somebody comes on to the website. They want to buy cereal.

Now, a magic spoon as, uh, as the post-purchase offer is the, you know, the bull with the spoon. I was intrigued by that because I was trying to understand, I guess, the strategy there. And in addition to just offering the product, or is there something else that they're trying to accomplish as well? Like for instance, In that I think what they're also trying to do is also continuing to market the lifestyle.

So I think for a lot of people in the interest of, you know, trying to figure out what maturity even looks like these days is, uh, actually tend to avoid cereal and mostly just, you know, toast and eggs or whatever it is. So part of it is selling people on. Uh, you know, that, that joy of coming back to eating a bowl of cereal and as somebody, you know, I, I'm not gonna lie.

Like I, I do get nervous a lot of times before my morning interviews or frankly before all of them. Um, I have no problem admitting that as I've done, um, no less than 12 times. And one of the few things that actually gets through is cereal because it's technically, to me, it's technically a soup. So all of that aside, let's just be fun, having fun, talking about it, but on top of the, the, the, the product.

So I go onto that website and, you know, I might order a cereal, like, you know, once a once a month, every two months, are they going to continue trying to market the same product? The most advantageous thing they're going to do. And then the other thing that I was also wondering too, is, you know, what else can people convey when, uh, in addition to selling their product again, along the lines of what kind of is it their brand that they want to convey?

How do they get more, really get more out of the post-purchase offer so much so that even the offer is a win, even if they don't take it. 

[00:27:32] Emily Foreman: That's a great, great point too. And we were speaking about magic spoon and any really sort of consumable in this, this category is, you know, your rights. How, what are the likelihood of am I going to buy, uh, same box of the cereal I just purchased, but I don't know if you've noticed when you're on magic spoons site is so they have one time purchase that you can purchase just one time, but they also have subscription.

So big benefit and a big win. If something that we're working on, building out with Shopify and a few of our brands is that upsell to a subscription. So upselling what you've just bought your cocoa puffs. The offer could be, get to the next, get your three months for 50% off. So that's, that's the shift point of not only are they increasing that checkout revenue, but they're.

Increasing their customer lifetime value by converting that order into a subscription. So that's the kind of the focus when we are looking at that specific type of brand is. You're right. That's not going to be like, get the same box for a discounted rate. But when we think of strategy could be also then bundled offers.

So different kinds of approaches to the cereal that are a little bit outside of the box, instead of just a discounted rate of the same thing. So subscriptions is, is going to be huge and a huge part of magic spoons kind of strategy. Um, not only with our checkout. 

[00:29:05] Joseph: As a, as you were describing with this too, I did pull up the, uh, the magic spoon, a website.

Cause one thing I was wondering is if that bowl that they were working on was even visible, just, you know, taking a, using half my brain to do that. And then the other half of the brain to listen to, I can't, I can't see it. And maybe if I dig a little bit deeper, I might spot it. But, um, that, and, and yeah, I was actually quite surprised by that.

So there's actually is I think an element of surprise and delight where there is a, Hey. We also, we also have this and then to comment on what you're describing with the subscription. So what I like about that is it's not the kind of thing I see working on first purchase, especially because of what they got to try it first, and then they have to like it first, but then they, they do it again.

And then they do it again. And then they realize it's become routine for them. And they're already thinking maybe I should, I could get a subscription that subscription they've been showing me like the other three times it's going to save me time and it's going to save me money. So I'm at this point, I'm silly not to do it.

And so, and I, and I think that's where. There was a lot of strength here, which is just, um, being able to market to somebody who has, uh, committed, but not everybody is committing at the same level based off their prior activity. 

[00:30:18] Emily Foreman: Which is exactly what you, you know, merchants or shop owners should always be thinking about that. So, targeting, like you said, I'm also like you, I'm not likely to all into a subscription on my first initial purchase, but understanding your customer data and taking a look at, okay, this, this cohort of people have purchased from us multiple times. So the next time, you know, and creating like a criteria.

And I'm going to, I'm saying this and this isn't something that our app concurrently do, but what would be cool and things that we're looking into is more and an AI recommendation pieces based off of shopper history or creating funnels based off of specific criteria of what the shopper first purchased or what they've previously purchased or how much revenue you've gotten from that specific customer is all things that as I see the trends going in, not only post-purchase.

But in e-commerce it's getting a lot to really customizing the shopper's experience, not only from purchase, but post post-purchase thinking of I've already got the product. And now six months later, I'm getting a text that's telling me I need to renew or purchase my product again. Like that's where it's going.

And that's fun to see that happening. And it does kind of starting with building that customer loyalty. With really strategically thinking out what offers you want to display? What's your end goal? What are you hoping to accomplish once you got that purchase. 

[00:31:48] Joseph: And I think in a way with, um, any brand that I like any, especially any e-commerce brand that I've purchased in the last little while.

Um, one example, uh, my YouTube counterpart, um, uh, Connor, he recommended this thing called mud water, which is a, it's a, I mean, not to be pejorative about it, but it was a coffee substitute, um, lot less caffeine, but they make up for with a lot more healthier. And what I've found is so I haven't made up my mind yet if I want to keep using it, because if I'm being honest, I have, um, I so use coffee quite a bit.

More so that is healthy for somebody with my anxiety levels, but that, but, but all that aside, I get a lot of emails from them. And what I think the it's the issue on their site is that as soon as somebody makes one purchase, they've become a subscriber, at least in the hypothetical sense, because now they're receiving the newsletter.

They're potentially receiving offers. They are becoming immersed in the lifestyle. And so you have this clash of like multiple lifestyles, all buying for a consumer for consumer intention. So I think the onus is on the seller to get more renewable. Uh, out of them or to add more value to the renewals of they're already getting it, because if I don't order anything from them ever again, I'm so the longer this goes on, the more value I'm getting out of them for a lot less money that I had spent.

[00:33:16] Emily Foreman: Yeah. Cause you're immediately just opting in because you've made a purchase, you're opting into all of their channels of communication. So, um, yeah, it really is. I kind of, I'm kind of with you on that. I've made a few one-time purchases from stores and that is years ago and I'm still getting communication from them.

I mean, my defense, I could opt out, but it is like, I want to see kind of what, what I can get. So I don't know. 

[00:33:41] Joseph: I like the archival element of emails. So that if I, for instance, I talk about manta sleep all the time because I use their sleep mask. And, uh, at this point there is so much information on sleep.

Now, mind you, I haven't read most of the content, but I do love the idea that it might email. It's basically like a library now where I just have all of this, um, reference material for all of these different, all these different products, not just that, even podcasts that I've subscribed to, to even if I'm not listening to each episode, I sign up for the newsletter.

I'm getting new episodes and there's reference material and all there. So it's, uh, our, our emails have actually become major a treasure trove of information. Here's one of the big things that I was wondering about, and this is in regards to the psychology of post-purchase. Now, what are the things that I like to do whenever possible is related in some way to the.

In-person experience that somebody might have when they go to a brick and mortar store. Now I've been on both sides. Like I've worked retail, and then I've also been a customer of retail. And I still remember, and I still get, um, you know, nightmares once in a while of trying to do like upsells and try to talk customers into something that they may not have intended to come in and get that day.

Like somebody is looking for a watch. I was like, you know, what would go well with that, watch. First for your life. So the hard part for me, and by the way, this is not actually related to what we're talking about in aggregate. I just want to get out of my system, which is the hard part for me was it was a rather disingenuous for the most part.

I know customers, they knew what they wanted to, and I felt I was doing my best when I was guiding them to the right call. So that, that aside I cannot for the life of me. Um, think of a equivalent for post-purchase because generally. Once people have, um, committed to the purchase there they're on their way out.

So we'll, we'll break this onto a couple of a questions and a couple of points for you to raise. One of them is, uh, the, I guess, resistance or if this was something that may have actually been a surprise, how well this is actually working consumers after they've paid their they're willing to commit to continued payments.

Um, the second point that I, I welcome you to raise this is. And equivalent to this. Cause I don't think there is, I think this is very specifically an e-commerce. 

[00:35:54] Emily Foreman: Yeah, no, you're right. Very specific to e-commerce and there's a lots of different ways in e-commerce to present offers. And so we found that our, you know, in cart hook cited post-purchase, but I don't know if you, uh, you know, in your checkout experience.

They experienced pre-purchase. So before you make your checkout, there's an offer. Um, there's also thank you page offer. So after you've gone through entire things, but we've found that post-purchase is, is what works well. Um, because there's not any risk of backfiring after the you've already captured that initial purchase.

So, you know, we use the example of like pre purchase. You can, if you can maybe come off as spammy and you could potentially risk losing that initial purchase and then you're out an entire order. But with the post-purchase side of things already captured the initial order. There's no risk of like backfiring on the post-purchase offer.

Um, there's also far less friction when it comes to post-purchase, uh, with cart hook is just one click it's it's yes. Add this to my initial order and they go on with their day, um, all also less friction because there's, you're not presenting them with a ton of offers. Right. So you've crafted this personalized, hopefully this personalized experience.

For someone who has just checked out on your store, um, that allows the likelihood of them to accept that offer. It's a more, it's a gentle way of introducing a product to add to the shopper's initial car, to again, help increase your AOV and increase that customer lifetime value. 

[00:37:40] Joseph: Yeah, I think you raise a lot of important points there, especially about how much, um, how you can only front load so much information for the customer.

And it actually would make it harder for them to make up their mind rather than, um, their mind already made up. And they're, they're in a different, uh, state at that point. And then bringing back what we had talked about about some of the, some of the brands is these surprise and delight factor in offering products or services.

They might not have actually encountered. So it's a, now you're, you're part of an exclusive club. Now, here is something that other people aren't going to know about. So I think that it ties into the psychology of it. Um, and so, and so my next question is exceedingly granular and specific. Um, because one thing I was just wondering about is the, the way it measures the average, uh, order of that.

I think what you said was they can add it into their previous order. So does that mean that say the, for instance, I buy something and it's $50 and then I, I get the post-purchase. I agree to it. Now that one purchase is now a hundred dollars or is it, I mean, if people have the option to, can they also split it into two.

[00:38:45] Emily Foreman: Good question. Um, how it works for us and within Shopify is to the shopper it appears as one compete border, right? So I've purchased my sandals and I get my clutch ad on club. With that all initial order, um, on the Shopify side with some coding and use of their API, we combine it then in Shopify as one order.

So there's the initial and then there's post-purchase. And so for the merchant, it's easy on the fulfillment side because everything is, is all parsed in. Is that one order? Yeah. And there's no, the shopper also doesn't need to add in their credit card again. So it's a very, just a seamless step of like, all right.

Yeah. This feels like. A really good deal. Like you can yeah. Go off of that the FOMO fear of missing out like, well, you're right. What if this is just a deal just for me. Uh, I'm just going to take it and then go on with my day. 

[00:39:45] Joseph: Right, right. Uh, so I, and again, I'm just, I'm just saying this back, just so that I can not process it accurately and apologies that has drilling season here in my apartment is the, the, that the, the actual transference of the money is actually on hold.

So somebody clicks pay now, uh, The the, the money hasn't actually transferred yet. Um, this is where a cart hook comes in and says, actually, we got this and we get this for you. Yeah. Um, maybe next time. So they say no, and then the money goes through or they say yes, and then that, that is added onto it. So that's, that's rather seamless.

[00:40:21] Emily Foreman: Yeah. So, you know, nitty-gritty of it is yeah shopify kind of hangs on to that payment token until a certain period of time that, you know, it it's because someone can also close out of the offer. Right. And we still want that initial order to go through. So after a certain period of time, if something's abandoned, then it just completes the transaction, but you're right.

Yeah. We hang on to that payment token. Get them through the entire funnel. And then everything's wrapped up the boat sent over into Shopify for fulfillment. 

[00:40:52] Joseph: Perfect. Super, super clarity right there. I said, well also, one of the things that you had mentioned is so when the, when the customer is thinking, I don't want them, I don't want to miss on this.

This might be a, a special offer for me. On that note is what is the flexibility of determining what product is going to be offered to? What customer, what, what metrics do you have, or does the seller have at their disposal to, uh, maybe differentiate what who's offering? Who's being offered? 

[00:41:16] Emily Foreman: Yeah. It, it, again, it depends on the store owner, understanding their products, um, as recommendations for people just getting started.

You mentioned earlier, like the obvious choices, just, um, using like your best seller. So trying that out, but it's really up to the. Store owner to really create the funnel criteria. I think a great way to have, it's not an immediate win on the revenue side of things, but building that brand loyalty that customer lifetime value is offering like a free, a free product.

So it could be a free new sample of, you know, work with several beauty brands. And that's a great way for them to announce new products is with a free trial. So that's, you know, there's lots of different ways to kind of incorporate the, the post-purchase offers. The products that you have, uh, you can see if you have a, again, high converting, or if you're high bestseller, that should be a post-purchase offer thinking along the lines.

If your inventory is high for a certain product, that's not selling that much. Maybe that's an offer at a discounted rate, or if you're moving product to you, don't get ready for a new product release. That product release could be like a free offer or a discounted rate. So all of that. You know, attracted to places.

They need to obviously pay attention in their Shopify analytics of their conversion rate. But then within our app, we have debt data as well on like your top converting post-purchase funnel, you know, revenue that you've gained from that funnel. So it allows you to really kind of take all of those data points to either create a funnel, set it and forget it, or create multiple ones and see what happens.

[00:43:03] Joseph: So my next question, and this is one that's coming to my mind organically. And I also recognize the inherent silliness of this. I'm just going to go for it anyways, which is what would happen if somebody wants to use multiple post-purchase apps, is there a viable reason for that or are they going to have to decide on which one is best for them?

[00:43:23] Emily Foreman: Well, one, they can't do it because yeah. It's like Shopify wouldn't know which one to fire. So you wouldn't, you, you would have to pick one so you can have multiple ones installed, but how Shopify works is you have to like select, well, which one do I want to be active right now. And set that one active.

[00:43:40] Joseph: I see. Okay. And then one more granular follow-up to that. So let's just say for instance, that, um, hypothetically there might be a specific offer. I could use a different upsell app for, and so it would activate under that condition, but then the remaining conditions would be active on another one. Or is it that in, sorry, you can't do that.

You're going to have to stick to one. 

[00:43:59] Emily Foreman: Yeah, no, cause you know, the, maybe it's a cool thing. Maybe it's not. But all, all, all of my competitor apps were all built on the same API structure. So yeah, it would have to it's an either, or you can have multiple ones installed, but in order for the correct API to know when to fire.

You have to have that app enabled. 

[00:44:19] Joseph: Yeah. I'm glad I got to ask that one that I know again, this is kind of like, whoa, that's a very specific scenario, but yeah. 

[00:44:26] Emily Foreman: It comes up daily in support interactions because it makes sense. You, people are testing out different products to see what they can do and they are, and they're like, I want to AB.

This product with this app, this product of yours, like it's not working. It's like, well, yeah, that's a great idea, but you can't do it. 

[00:44:42] Joseph: Yeah. I mean, I guess I would expect it to come up. I'm surprised to hear it comes up every day, but. 

[00:44:47] Emily Foreman: Every day, all the time.

[00:44:52] Joseph: Now that Shopify has upgraded to version 2.0, we needed to make sure we were up to speed. So we've released version 4.0 to ensure that we're 100% equipped to take advantage of the 2.0 revolution. If you haven't upgraded your store, head on over. And if you haven't gotten started, now is a good time as any.

All right. So, so the next one that we wanted to make sure we talked about to where, um, you know, w what are our top performing verticals? I, I usually understand how a vertical works in context, but I'm actually not clear on what would be a top out of the top performing verticals are so much so that you might have already answered the question just based on the conversation we've been having so far.

So could you help me, me contextualizes? Like what actually makes something a vertical and then what are the top performing? 

[00:45:40] Emily Foreman: Yeah. In vertical, how we look at verticals on our side is breaking it out into like industries that we're in. We use that in the Mar marketing as well. So we are still relatively a new app and still working on getting that data point of what vertical works best or what's a top converting vertical in, in our ecosystem.

Um, I'd say right now, It's definitely in the direct to consumer in the consumables. So that could be a vitamin, CBD gummies do really well. It's kind of whatever is on trend now, even outside of e-commerce. So I think of like gummies, the health and wellness gummies are huge right now. And they're doing really well with us because that's where the market is focused at the moment.

Um, we find that. Uh, beauty brands and kind of the beauty industry and vertical work well with us as well, like health and wellness, it's all over, you know, it's each vertical does work well. That's person owning that specific brand needs to know what they want to accomplish and understand like their strategy and implementing post-purchase offers.

But, um, we have food, like you've seen food with magic spoon. We have several food brands that have come to us. Like Bragg's apple cider vinegar that works. So it's hard to pinpoint, like what vertical works well. Hopefully we'll have that data points coming into 2022. Once we have a full year under our belts of having this app running.

[00:47:23] Joseph: Yeah. I mean, uh, the, the follow-up question I had to that, but again, I also recognize that it might not be crystal clear yet, but have you also spotted which verticals are currently struggling with making this work? 

[00:47:33] Emily Foreman: No, we haven't. And that's something maybe we should look at you, uh, currently a data point.

Yeah, we haven't looked into this again. We're approachable. We're trying to, well, a fun kind of a workshop we're doing internally as now. You know, black Friday, cyber Monday is big in e-commerce. So we are at the halfway. Well over a halfway point to black Friday. Um, and so internally as a team of how we initially built up this product, we had our ideal customer persona built out.

Um, that's shifted since we are now seven months into launch. So we're, we're doing kind of a workshop of taking a look at different data points and that's customer churn. So. Uh, you know, what are the, typically, when we look at stores who install our apps and an uninstalled same day, that's going to help us silo it down into, is this a specific vertical?

Is it something we talked about earlier on in the conversation are these new stores that don't have revenue? And so doing this workshop will help us then craft like this ideal customer persona that will not only help us on the marketing side, but then product to make sure we're building the product for the right, that right kind of subset of, of Shopify merchants. 

[00:48:52] Joseph: I got a couple of more, um, uh, questions that I'm, that I'm wondering about. Um, and one of them is actually, I guess, more about your, your own brand strategy. Um, this ties into some of the stuff that we established earlier on, again, bringing magic spoon, what's more into the crucible, which is when you, you know, using that one in particular as part of your, you know, your pitch is a magic spoon.

I don't know, I don't have their data on him, but I presume they're doing pretty well. They found, they found a, a, a target market that's working very well for them. So, you know, hats off to that. So obviously success is one metric that would go great when pitching the, uh, efficacy of your app to others. But I'm also wondering too, is, is there something about the mindset or the tone of the five of the brands that are being presented to that, allow you to show a side of the company you, you want to make sure people are aware of. 

[00:49:47] Emily Foreman: Yeah. That is a good question. And maybe I'm not a hundred percent following what my answer should be. So you're just looking for the, on our approach when we're marketing towards bringing on example, like more of the magic spoon type stuff.

Yeah. That comes with our messaging a little bit. We try to definitely position ourselves to, uh, probably this will change once we've finished this kind of research we're doing on the ideal customer persona, but that more enterprise level, more established brands that we work well with, um, you know, magic spoon is one of them.

So that's definitely kind of how we shift when we're looking at our, our brand strategy and who we're marketing to. Again, all of this could be a total wash. When we look at the data on who our ideal customer is, but historically how we have done it is really positioning it towards that agency. Agencies that are building out.

You know, we have some that work with celebrities, building out celebrity brands. And so we partner with them to help them add this into their tech stack when creating the new Shopify plus accounts for these merchants. So, yeah, we, we, we try to also pump out, like we've talked about before tons of case studies, blog posts.

We like to do, we are big on the partner relationships. So really creating an experience when it comes time for our success team to demo on why cart hook, um, it's we want to become these industry leaders in your post-purchase strategy. So that's siloing in on that. We want to do that. We want to do it really well.

[00:51:25] Joseph: Yeah. I, once in awhile, a question of mine, like it's, it's like 70% clear and like, oh no, what have I done? 

[00:51:33] Emily Foreman: It also could have been me too. I was like, I mean, I'm following in and I'm not. 

[00:51:37] Joseph: I appreciate that. So, yeah. Uh I'll uh, I'll, I'll leave it there. Um, cause we we're, we're we're closing in on the hour, so I don't have a too much time left with you.

Um, so, uh, here's my, here's my, uh, uh, final agenda. Uh, number one. Another thing that I always want to do in these circumstances is just make sure that if there was a stone left to be unturned, I'd want to give you a chance to turn it. If there's anything else you want to let us know about it, maybe something I forgot to ask.

Uh, I will, uh, give the floor to you to just, um, make sure that we're all clear. Yeah. 

[00:52:09] Emily Foreman: I mean, this was a great conversation and I don't know if this is my time to like pitch. If anyone's interested in finding out more about cart hook and how we can help your brands increased your stores AOV. Um, they can head over to carthook.com.

We offer a 14 day free trial. There's no risk to that on install. You're not charged. But yeah, this was, this was a lot of fun. 

[00:52:35] Joseph: Awesome. Well, I'm, uh, I'm glad to hear that. I take responsibility for that. Uh, cause uh, I, there was like one other question that I was, I was going to ask.

Um, but it was, it's like, it's not quite on topic. Um, because it's, uh, what I wanted to ask you about this sustainability. Um, so for people I recommend a, they go to the cart hook blog there's there's a lot of good information there and the sustainability ones stuck out. Um, because I think usually what, uh, brands, regardless of their size they get into is this notion that if they put too much of their resources into acquiring more high quality materials, it starts to limit their profit margin to the actually aren't profitable. So I just wanted to get, I guess the cliff notes take on it from, from your point of view is what have you seen to actually contradict this or counteract this? And at what point is, um, the sustainability actually not only, you know, good for good sake, but also helpful to the longterm growth of a business.

[00:53:31] Emily Foreman: Yeah. I mean, I definitely. It's one, like you said, it's the right thing to do. It's something that I think every business should be conscious of. It's a lot, there's a lot of the sustainability issues when it comes to two day shipping, we can see Amazon has made changes in that front of, of longer shipping times to cut down on carbon emissions.

And so it's one thing that it's always good to be hyper aware of. Is it more expensive? Right now? Yes, but if more brands starts picking up being more socially, uh, conscious that it could lower costs of getting recyclable bull material that you can ship in having a little bit longer shipping days, I've, I've experienced that recently.

You know, it was definitely a shift, a shift in my mindset to just be like, well, I want it, well, I want it in 24 hours and then realizing, and kind of doing my own personal resources on one, the carbon emissions from airlines and all that. If that shipping is insane, then not only the product waste that comes into just additional packing materials.

It's, uh, I hope this trend continues and yeah, like you mentioned, we have a really great blog post that we did with eco cards. Um, they're strictly focused on helping brands become more socially aware of the environmental impact of, uh, e-commerce kind of the, the shipping world. So I hope to see those costs go down.

And I think the more people that adapt to it, the more likely. 

[00:55:02] Joseph: And one thing that I'll, I'll touch on, on that as well as that, I, I actually kind of enjoy, uh, waiting not too long, but I do enjoy the anticipation of something like, oh yeah. When's that book ending year. Oh my God. It's finally here so. 

[00:55:16] Emily Foreman: It's this shift we've been so used to over the past few years of the millennial mindset of having things and having it now.

Um, I'm so used to yet to your phone and my phone is connected to my hands at all times. And so I'm so used to having anything I want right now that it is it's like, all right, I can't, I'm not going to die if I don't have this tomorrow. And if it helps just a little bit in preserving this world that we have this planet that we have. Why not? 

[00:55:45] Joseph: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm not, it's not a shipping related, but somewhat related in my point about anticipation, you know, I booked a getaway for myself and my girlfriend and it's another like 55 days away. Uh, so these next 55 days are more exciting for having something to wait for. So look forward to, yeah.

We're all good to go. We're going to wrap this, uh, this bad boy up. Um, you did, um, uh, let the customers know or let our audience know potential customers, not gonna like, uh, how to reach you guys out. So, um, with that, uh, checkbox checked, there is one of the things that I just wanted to give you an opportunity to do is if there's like a piece of advice or a Chinese proverb, or like a saying, that's been sticking out to you lately that you want to share, you're more than welcome to otherwise.

We will get you on out of here. 

[00:56:31] Emily Foreman: Oh, awesome. I wish I had one. But now you're leading me into thinking I should probably. I have some sort of grand statements. 

[00:56:41] Joseph: All good. I'll uh, I usually have something to cover just in case. So I chambered a few just in case. Um, so that I'll share for our audience is it takes getting better to admit when you were worse.

So I think, I mean, I came to this conclusion from more of a creative point of view. It's it's about like, oh, this, this is pretty good. And you know, people would, uh, Uh, with criticize and I'd be like, you don't know what you're talking about. And then I would get better. I'm like, okay, I understand what you're talking about now.

And it's a very difficult mindset to, uh, to get through. Um, because I think the overcorrection to that is just thinking everything is terrible all the time and never believing in our, in our work. And that's not good either. So what I've come to is thinking, this is my best work. The yet is the asterisk.

It's the, I will get better, but this is also the best that I can do in the situation that I met. And so, uh, that was actually the last one I had. I'm going to have to get another one ready before my next day. 

[00:57:41] Emily Foreman: Awesome. Well, this is a lot of fun. 

[00:57:42] Joseph: Glad to hear. Uh it's uh, I, I have. I just, I'm just happy to have this, uh, this position, um, gets to meet great people and to be a part of a solution.

And rather than, than being part of a problem, you know, a lot of people, they exactly, they've had a lot of struggles and I think giving people an opportunity to bring out the marketer in them is, uh, is changing a lot of lives, not just the seller, but also the people that they're selling to. Awesome.

All right. To my audience as always, it is an honor and a privilege to collect this information and ride with all of you. Oh, I was so close. I almost got it right that time with that. We will check in soon. Take care. 

Thanks for listening. You might've found this show on many number of platforms, apple podcasts, Spotify, Google play, Stitcher, or right here on Debutify. Whatever the case, if you enjoy this content and want to help us thrive, please take a few moments to leave a review on apple podcasts or wherever you think is best. 

We also want to hear from you. So whether you think you'd be a good guest or want to weigh in on anything related to our show, you can email podcasts@debutify.com or connect with us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and TikTok. 

Finally, this podcast is created by the passionate team at Debutify. If you're ready to take the plunge into e-commerce or are looking to up your game, head over to debutify.com and see how it can change your. And the lives of many through what you do next.

Written by

Joseph Ianni

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