icon-folder-black Nomadic Lifestyle Email Marketing

Francis Nayan - Professional Freelance Nomadic Copywriting

icon-calendar 2021-07-27 | icon-microphone 1h 7m 21s Listening Time | icon-user Debutify CORP

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With today's episode, we can finally crack open a new component to the ecommerce ecosystem that is essential both within ecommerce and beyond ecommerce, copywriting. From the creative flair of a marketing campaign to the instructions on how to use a product safely, it matters a great deal. My guest Francis Nayan is a professional copywriter who is an example of the ideal lifestyle such a career can offer. 



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Tags: #Ecommerce #E-commerce #Shopify #Dropshipping #ShopifyStore #Entrepreneurship #Debutify #francisnayan #copywriter #freelance #emailmarketing

Francis Nayan: [00:00:00] My idea, my philosophy is that in adverse welcome sequences to pretty much roll out the red carpet for them, explain the benefits of the brand and the product that you have. Then make them feel good for being there. Not every company is going to be quirky, cute, things like that. You don't have to. But you need to mention what makes your brand different.

That's going to stick. If you do that well enough, then they're going to look forward to the next email and the next email and the next email. 

Joseph: [00:00:34] You're listening to Ecomonics, a Debutify podcast. Your resource for one of the kind insights into the world of e-commerce and business in the modern age. This is Joseph. I'll be presenting a wealth of industry knowledge from interviews with successful business people and our own state-of-the-art research. Your time is valuable so let's go.

I'm delighted to unveil a new component to our ecosystem that is essential both within e-commerce and everywhere else where professionalism matters, and that is copywriting. My guest, Francis Nayan is a professional copywriter, who is an example of the ideal lifestyle such a career can offer. 

Francis Nayan.

It is good to have here in Ecomonics. How you doing today? How you feeling? 

Francis Nayan: [00:01:21] Thank you so much Joseph. I am absolutely stoked to be here. Been listening to some of your episodes and yeah. Pretty honored to be here now. 

Joseph: [00:01:29] It's an honor to have you, and I guess I just want to like, you know, pat myself on the back a little bit, let our audience know.

So like you, were you listening to our content before we, we had you booked. Was that  my understanding? Well, that's great. I, it, uh, so I'll be honest with you. Like the, the booking side of it, sometimes I'm involved, but there was like a hundred different things to do. So we do have other people.

So did you reach out to us because you wanted to be on the show or did we reach out to you? 

Francis Nayan: [00:01:52] I reached out to y'all. So, you know, one of my little kind of daily habits is, you know, it's always be learning and sometimes I go on morning walks and I put on like a podcast or I'm one of those weird people in the gym that like, I don't listen to music.

I like just put on like a nerdy marketing podcast and I, uh, phone's a yours and yes, you guys were definitely with me when I was doing like back and biceps a few times. I was like, I really liked this guy, like the vibe. And I want to see if I can maybe get on. Yeah. 

Joseph: [00:02:20] I didn't, I didn't know that. I mean, I don't know.

Maybe, like I said, I got to like a lot of messages and so was a lot of like information in a lot of information out. So maybe we even had like a conversation. So I feel bad if I'm like, Hey man, it's good to see you again. But anyways, so, so it is great to have you here. And the honor we'll say is mutual because, you know, with each episode that goes by, I get to see a whole new perspective.

I get to meet another human being, you know, uh, in, in a time where everybody is, uh, socially reduced by my social circle has like increased tenfold. So, uh, so I'm I'm, this is, this is a great start to my Monday morning. I'll I'll say that. All right, let's get, let's let, let the audience know what you do and let the audience know what you're up to because, um, this is going to be a pretty easy conversation.

We haven't done gone to talk to too many people specifically in your field. So take it away. 

Francis Nayan: [00:03:06] Yeah. So as you said, my name is Francis Nayan. I'm originally from Memphis, Tennessee, but I live currently based in Budapest, Hungary. Been there for five years. I am actually right now in Mexico, uh, been here for about five months, still working, still working my butt off.

I'm still getting on podcasts and speaking and yeah, I'm a freelance, um, email marketing, strategist and copywriter. And so I meet and work with, um, e-commerce brands, coaches, consultants, and helping them get the most profit out of their email lists. 

Joseph: [00:03:39] And one thing I wanted to, uh, ask about cause you, so you say that you're, you're based in a, in Budapest, Hungary, but you're currently living in Mexico.

So, uh, can you fill our audience in on, I guess, how you would characterize your, your lifestyle, like to what degree are you traveling? Especially in a time where driving. Uh, drastically reduced overall. 

Francis Nayan: [00:03:59] Yeah. So I guess most people, you know, if they, I guess, were to look at my Instagram or something would call me like a, a digital nomad, um, which is kind of weird.

Cause I think that the term is a little bit cringy, but then also I wouldn't even call myself like very nomadic. I mean, I'm based in Budapest and I spend most of my time there, uh, occasionally I'll get to travel, uh, you know, once a month, every two months for like a few days here and there. Um, but I usually just stay in one place and stuff.

I mean, I've been in Mexico for five months and that's only came here because through the pest is like, it would be restrictions were a little too crazy. And so I was like, uh, you know, I have a friend here in Guadalajara and I just want it to kind of you know, we'll have some walking around space and yeah.

But, um, I'm more of just like a slow traveler, I guess you could say. And, um, I mean, yeah, I mean, I live and do the best, so it's not really like a vacation for me, like pay rent there and I pay taxes and things like that.

Joseph: [00:04:55] Right. And, and the reason why I ask about this is because one of the attractive features of, I, you know, not just the job shipping lifestyle, but the e-commerce lifestyle, the be your own boss lifestyle is the ability to have that kind of maneuverability.

And I dunno, like I wake up in the morning and I'm terrified that my internet goes out. So even though I have an apartment and I have lights and everything, I'm still having that guttural feeling in my stomach that something is going to go wrong. And incidentally, by the way, something did go wrong. Last week I woke up and our whole apartment had been knocked out and I just like, oh, well, I got to cancel this interview, hold the message gets to them in time.

And so that really sucks. Um, so the idea for me coming, being like a lifelong hermit is. How often, if at all, has the, this particular lifestyle actually been a detriment to your ability to consistently do your job? 

Francis Nayan: [00:05:47] Yeah. Well, it's one of those things in which I, I do, uh, like a lot of research before I go anywhere.

And, you know, sometimes I do have to kind of like spend the money to stay in like a nicer hotel or a nicer just Airbnb or motel that has like semi consistent, um, you know, wifi and things like that. Um, and within the last two years, especially within the last year, it hasn't been that much of a detriment just because I know how to research.

I know what to do. Um, I never go in blindly into a new city or town or country. Um, you know, there were plenty of websites that you can go to, which digital nomads, remote workers, freelancers. They can literally rate the town or the city of, you know, wifi capabilities or friendliness of locals or affordability or safety and things like that.

So I definitely leverage those and use them, but, um, I would say, you know, if anyone's listening to this and you're worried about that, definitely join like a Facebook group. The town you're going to have, you know, be ex-pats or locals and, um, just ask where's the best place to get wifi. Does anyone have any suggestions?

And, um, you know, it's 2021. So there's a lot of people, you know,the world of working and they know what these people need. So you'll probably get a good answer. No doubt. And I was just in work to Escondido in Western Mexico, and it's like a sleepy beach town. And I asked the question in the group and they just gave me a bunch of suggestions and worked out just fine.

So you have to definitely just prepare and do your own research. 

Joseph: [00:07:18] Yeah, it's not a, an ideal thing to just go in blind and be like, well, I sure hope I'll be able to find a wifi or a Starbucks now that said, you know, odds are good. Eventually you'll come across one, but still, I think that makes a lot of sense.

And that, that, that certainly helps even clear it up in my mind. If I get to that point where I have to be move around more often than I am right now, which is frankly, it's not at all. So, you know, anything is going to be more than it is this point. So cool. Uh, maybe I'll ask a couple of other specific when's, um, later on in the episode, depending on how things are unfold, but we definitely want to sink our teeth into, um, you know, the email marketing and the copywriting that you do.

So we have talked to other people in the email marketing space. In fact, I talked to a fellow named Daniel Budai who's also in Budapest. Have you met him? Cause if not, I'll introduce you to. 

Francis Nayan: [00:08:03] Yeah. I mean, Daniel, I was actually messaging Daniel. Like yesterday he posted something on Instagram and I was like, Hey buddy, I'm going back to Budapest next week.

Let's hang out. And just like, like my message. So I think that's a yes. 

Joseph: [00:08:16] Okay, great. So, um, let's start by talking about, I guess the, uh, um, in, you know, in your, in your view, the effectiveness of email marketing, and one thing that I've always specifically wanted to know is, you know, to what degree can email marketing and by the way, feel free to expand on that.

If you feel that email marketing isn't fully encapsulating, everything that we want to talk about today, to what degree it can it be, um, effective earlier on when, when somebody just starts their business, it seems like the only thing they really do at first is put down some money for Facebook ads or whatever advertising platform that you want to start generating.

Those, those customers that will then end up on the email marketing list. So it seems like it's hard for email marketing or emailing in general, too. Be further up in the funnel. So there's a couple of things to unpack there, but, um, so let's start with, you know, what is the, uh, effectiveness of email marketing in the market that we currently face?

Francis Nayan: [00:09:13] Yeah, I mean, right now, I think email marketing is probably the most important platform that, you know, any e-commerce e-commerce store owner really, really any business owner should have, you know, we're in the age of Facebook compliance and, you know, role rules and social media where your content, these platforms can stretch you down for any other reason.

But you know, you own your email list and it's one of those platforms in which it's extremely personal. You know, you can create a tailored messages, um, you know, customized, you know, automations so that you can create a more, create a bigger impact on your audience when they join your email list. And, you know, if you're just starting out in your, you know, you put down the paid ads and you're thinking that's going to be like the, you know, the one route to success, maybe it will.

If you had an awesome website and awesome product and then awesome offer, but having an email is it, it helps you build that audience so that you can bring them in, you know, they can grow with you. They can learn more about you. And, um, you know, you can create those little touches to the point where, you know, eventually they will say, okay, I want to try this product.

You know, I have a guarantee, I'll buy it, see if I like it. And then at that point you have a sale. So I think it's, it's one of those things in which I think it was not many people were really thinking about it several years ago. Um, I think in the last year I've seen. Maybe it's just my Facebook algorithm algorithm, but I think there's like millions of email people like email experts nowadays.

And I think that's because people know that, uh, businesses, especially e-commerce source and email. 

Joseph: [00:10:47] Right. I mean, there's, there's a number of reasons. Um, why I kind of can observe that as, uh, efficacy has improved. I mean, for one, I think people are far more on their phones now than ever. A year and a half ago.

And I also think that SMS messaging has been an interesting topic. And I've talked to some people who are experts in this space too, and they're going through their own set of challenges because you have, what are the preconceived expectations for SMS and or what I expected to see from a text message.

And so to have a businesses also stepping into that space too, it has reshaped what, what people are conditioned to expect with getting text messages. Um, so in regards to the emails, I think the expectations have, you know, they, they start, they do start off pretty low, right? People are just expecting like spam or they're, they're expecting a Ponzi scheme for helping out, uh, you know, a Nigerian prince.

So, you know, any, anything above that, um, is suddenly valuable to it. But one of the challenges. You know, how do you prevent the customer from not reading it? Right. I think some of it, some of the problem by the way, is that the image just shows up in the spam folder. So like I've had, I've had businesses I've signed up for were then I'll look and be like, wait a minute, wait a minute.

No, this isn't junk. What are you doing outlook? 

Francis Nayan: [00:12:03] Yeah. I mean, it's email, deliverability is definitely a very big, hot topic. I think that I've seen come up a whole lot more in the last, like, even like six, seven months. Um, because yeah, I mean, I think that's comes with the evolution or like the re evolution of like the importance of email and, you know yeah.

I think you're right with the, like the kind of the preconceived notion that email these spammy, that's why they even have a spam folder because the thing for a long time email, email marketing in general was, was spamming. Cause, you know, you would just get, you know, a bit of a turn and burn of offers or you would get 50% off, 60% off every email from, you know, the store owner or something.

But you know, that's when you kind of have to change it up and you have to work a little bit harder to create that kind of engagement and audience, um, rather than the engagement with your audience. So that's when you, you know, I kind of come in with creating copy and creating content that, that hooks readers in and actually makes them think, oh, well they're a little bit different.

They're kind of quirky. They're pretty fun. They actually sound human. Um, and that's kinda my philosophy when it comes to email marketing and email copywriting is to sound as human as possible. And you know, when somebody gets that first email in the welcome sequence, they get excited. You know, my job is to condition the reader to be super pumped that they're getting this email and, you know, to kinda just be intrigued and be like, oh, I wonder what they're going to say next. So I think that that's something that I've seen a whole lot recently. I mean, I have like a Gmail account that's only swipes. I just go into a bunch of email newsletters and I read them and just kind of see what people are doing.

And yeah, I mean, recently I've seen a whole lot of like really quirky, funny content, and I think that's kind of the route that. And people should be kind of going to. 

Joseph: [00:13:54] Yeah, it must be, um, a great, great for research. All you have to do is sign up for a bunch of these places. You don't have to necessarily buy anything, just sign up for a bunch of newsletters, a hoard, a bunch of coupons.

And you'll see, um, uh, some of the writing, uh, much of the writing coming in and, and so things have shifted towards a more personable state that's somewhat intriguing. So I guess in your analysis, um, which if you want to define, by the way, how long you've been analyzing this is when would you say that you've seen somewhat of a shift towards more personable, um, uh, copywriting and I guess maybe I don't remember, but what was it, what was it like prior to that point?

Francis Nayan: [00:14:34] I would say within the last, like two to three years, definitely within the last two. Um, I think, yeah. For awhile. The, the idea was that these emails should be really pretty. They shouldn't have these like very like cool, like sexy design. They should have a nice offer and it should be very straightforward.

And, you know, I think that's what you still see a lot with the bigger brands, like the gap or the H and M or, um, you know, companies like that. And so, yeah, within the last two years I've seen like this kind of more personal approach to it and it's kind of refreshing. I mean, people like people want to be entertained, you know, they, they.

I think a lot of times we do we'll think of good email marketing and they don't want to send out, for example, a bunch of emails to their list. Like, oh, I'm bothering them. But in reality, if you're entertaining and they're looking forward to your message, you're not bothering them. And so, um, I've been, I've been seeing that a whole lot and I think it's even funny.

I think last week I was pretty bored. I was looking at all these swipes, see if they were doing and, you know, there's all these jokes and kind of like, um, you know, different voices and tones. And I think it's really cool. And I think that's, that's something that everyone should be kind of focusing on nowadays.

Joseph: [00:15:47] Uh, sorry. When you say swipes,  I'm not exactly sure if I've unintentionally been participating in swipes all this time. What w what exactly are the swipes? 

Francis Nayan: [00:15:57] Oh, yeah. Sorry. When I say swipes, I usually just say, like, I think I use that as like a blanket term of things that I use to like, maybe model or kind of like draw inspiration from.

And so when I say, like, I have like a, uh, email swipe account, it's usually just all those emails. I sign up for them inspiration from, I mean, of course they're like direct response marketers in which they, you know, they literally have email swipes that they reuse over and over again. But, um, I guess it's kind of like a weird, like, blanket term for it.

Joseph: [00:16:25] Okay. Well, I, I like it. I was just wondering if it was, um, uh, an institutionalized term that I just hadn't heard yet. Okay. So w a lot of what we've, we've talked about, I wonder if this is what you would integrate into what you call the cashe or cashe method. Um, so how does, how does that factor in, is that the all encompassing, um, philosophy that you use to decide how you write the copy?

Francis Nayan: [00:16:49] Oh yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I think you're talking about my cash money method. I thought it was a cute name, so I just had it to pin it but, um, the cash point he met that is pretty much mine. My overall philosophy around email marketing and copy in general. So it stands for copy, automation, segmentation, health, and engagement.

And so this is all the things that kind of think about, and then creating an email strategy and really just creating the content in general. So I try to make sure that one, that the copy copies, you know, it pushes the benefits and paints a picture of the benefits for the reader. Yeah, I made sure all the automations have that.

And then we have a very robust set of automations that based on the products and, um, segmentation, you know, who you send emails to, to help with deliverability and, you know, the, the custom messages you can create. And then let's tell, it's just making sure you're not in spam in that you're not neglecting, you know, what you can do with the email list and the engagement, you know, how can you get the, the reader?

Um, yeah, you know, more engaged, you know, interacting with the email, getting more excited and. Not just so much, I'm 30, here's 30% off. Here's 40% off or just another, you know, it kind of takes it to another level of how can I get them to actually respond back or participate in something. So, yeah. 

Joseph: [00:18:11] Yeah. Oh yeah. I could email, even if it is a coupons, like, congratulations, you exist. Here's 80% off. Yeah. It can. It can feel like, well, you know what? I think they just, they know that I'm going to take this coupon and they've enhanced the prices for that. So yeah, I, I can see where that's not quite enough to really compel people.

So out of all of those five, I think segmentation is the one that I could use more. Frankly more guidance on because my, my initial reaction is, well, what do you mean by segmentation? I it's either people who are on the newsletter or they're not. So is it about the, the different activity levels of customers?

Is it about maybe what products they've purchased? So if some people lean more towards one of our marked higher ticket items, they would end up on a different list. Whereas people who are more generalized, they might end up on a different list, um, subscribers versus non-subscribers. So, you know what I mean?

This has got to change from niche to niche. So I don't think there's any one particular rule, but I'm, I was actually surprised that segmentation is part of this at all. 

Francis Nayan: [00:19:10] Yeah. I mean, it's a big part of like what I do, because, you know, as you mentioned, the way I segment is I literally take data on everything. So I, I segment people based on their previous purchase, you know, how often they visited the website, um, you know, birthdays, countries.

If they've opened the email within the last like 21 to 30 days. And it's really helpful for me because, well, one for a lot of the clients that I work with, they just do a horrible job segmenting, you know, no offense to them. But when it, when I first started working with them, it really was just the lasting, the whole list, which is, you know, I would assume with maybe like an old school method, or maybe like a weird, like kind of churn and burn method.

But, you know, I found out that by segmenting the list and having all of this data, then you can create automation. So you can create manual campaigns, you know, to where the point where they're more sophisticated and you can create different messages, different offers to these segments. So, you know, for example, if you're somebody who you have any commerce store and you're thinking, oh, I don't want to send out three, four emails a week, or even send out two emails a week or something, then you can use these segments so you can send messages to different people.

So then you're not blasting the whole list. Um, and then that helps with, you know, not just getting more sales in, but then also helping your email deliverability. So you're not ending up in spam because if you're sending to a smaller list. These people are opening and you're getting a higher open rate because it is a smaller list than, you know, the algorithms, these folders will recognize, oh, this email sender's valuable because their emails are getting read.

So I'm going to make sure they land in the primary folder. And so, um, the health side with that a lot is segmentation. You know, it kind of goes into, you know, I can write different kinds of copy and, um, create certain content just for that list. So it makes it a lot more fun too. So, um, yeah, I can definitely go have like speak for an entire hour around segmentation cause that can be really nerdy about it.

Um, but yeah, I think it's a, it's a super important part of email marketing. That's why I like talking about it. 

Joseph: [00:21:20] I mean, I'd like to, I like to hear more about it. Um, not, not really, like you say, you can go on for an hour, so I'm like, okay. So it will be some of the questions somebody asks. So I think one of them would be the aspect of collecting the data in the first place. So, so you're saying for instance, uh, I can, I can segment this summit based out of, uh, birthdays, like in segment, uh, some of them based out of, um, maybe a age range or even gender, or even what part of the, of the country or part of the world that they live in, how exactly are, you know, between you and between your clients is how is the, the data being collected, uh, so effectively.

Francis Nayan: [00:21:55] Yeah. So one of the, I guess, well, the number one, uh, I'm not a partner. I feel like I should be. So I should, I'm going to bet. They're like, just promote there, the name of it. But I mean, I think Klaviyo, which is an email service provider, you know, it's, it's so robust and they, they help you. They even do like, it's so easy to segment and it's so easy to create forums and to gather this data.

I mean, I was just speaking with a client the other day and they, I just onboarded them and yeah. Or were completely new to Klaviyo and they're like, oh, well we have this, you know, UK list and US list, like, how do we create that? And, um, I was like, did we get, do we have to ask, you know, w where everyone's from and collected that that way.

And then, uh, what happened was we looked into the Klaviyo when we found out exactly where everyone was from, you know, there's like a geotag thing there. Um, you know, you can turn it on or off. Um, and so you can use the software, you know, depending on, you know, your ESP, maybe you don't use Klaviyo, maybe use, um, the sender or the mayor posts or something like that.

Um, so you can really get this data in, uh, through the softwares that you use. And of course, there's hundreds, if not thousands of different plugins and integrations that you can use to help you gather this data. And so it's really, it's one of the things also, it can be really overwhelming. So you kind of have to pick like maybe one or two things at a time.

And, um, of course not overwhelmed. Your audience, if you're looking for a certain kind of data. So, you know, if you have like an opt-in, it's probably best not to have like, you know, name, phone number, age, male, female, um, country. And you're like, oh man, I feel like I'm, you know, buying airline tickets or something, I'm just trying to buy a t-shirt.

So it's, um, we definitely use a lot of plugins integrates yourself. 

Joseph: [00:23:41] Yeah. It, could it be someone on candidate two to get an email saying, Hey, uh, Joseph from, from Sussex 99, 82. Uh, ever, ever, ever would street my improvised, skills. They don't really kick it until around noon, but so I can see how that might be a little bit.

Okay. Hang on a second. They just took the, what I filled in making it seem like, so yeah. I can see that.

So actually at one, the other thing, I wonder if this is, um, a part of it. So I'm going to take the long route to ask this question so you can understand my thought process because, um, one of the key things about market research is, you know, the, that first wave of ads that people send out is often to understand what their audience is so they can redefine some of the parameters narrow down the interests and, you know, get closer and closer to the bullseye.

And so what I would wonder in regards to segmentation is if there's ever been. And an a means and a need to resegment where say over time, the, the characteristics or the qualities of the customers, they become more known because you start to have a higher degree of interaction. And so I said, well, you know what?

We used to segment them based off gender, but now we don't actually need to do that. Now we can segment them based off of what time of the day they get up more specific to my product. So is that, am I just pulling this out of thin air or have you seen examples of a reset mutation as the information becomes more refined?

Francis Nayan: [00:25:08] Yeah, definitely. Definitely. I mean, um, I guess reset resegmentation could be the word. I mean, I think maybe no segmentation is still like, I mean, I've just discovered sometimes where high segments something and I get data and I'm like, all right, this actually does not even matter at all. Like, you know, one thing that's recently happened was kind of second thing, male or female for this particular brand that I was working on.

And I was like, should I create like a different tone? Should I mention like certain different countries and then realized that I was just coming off like super. And that the results, actually, it didn't matter. Um, I mean, who knows? Maybe my copy wasn't that great. Um, about Abba. It was pretty good, but then, yeah, there's just some times in which it's the data doesn't really, it's not really, it's not going to be a super as effective.

I mean, I think it's good to have, but I think, um, it's like an 80 20 rule, you know, eventually you find, you know, the, the most important things that you need to focus on and that caused the most impact. So yeah, I've done that before and I still do that as part of the evolution of kind of making the, the research more sophisticated is that you realize certain things don't really, um, don't really matter.

And you gotta focus on, you know, the handful, two, three things, maybe of the things that matter most and create your, your messaging. 

Joseph: [00:26:28] Okay. And then, uh, one more, one of our follow-up to that, um, would be a nice, I suppose, this is another one of those matters where it's case by case basis, but, you know, determining for your, what were the things that matter the most?

Because like you said, you know, basing it off of gender, which is a pretty substantial part of the, you know, the human construct ended up not really being relevant to it. So I guess some of that has to do with the brand appeal with the product, the target market. So, you know, how are people figuring out what are the important parameters by which to if necessary segment?

Francis Nayan: [00:26:58] Yeah, I mean, so the thing that kind of sticks out to me is just definitely what they know, what, what they've purchased in the past and, you know, what are the, you know, how can we upsell certain people to, you know, if they had gotten, you know, we've seen that certain people buy this product and then, then also buy this one, then perhaps we should get an automation that has a really good upsell too.

Product a to product B and, you know, that's helped me all that kind of create that AOV helped me great, you know, just boost more revenue for my clients, just so we know, you know, and sometimes it can be really surprising because the client will think, oh, I love this. I love this product. It's super kick ass.

Like I think we should promote the hell out of it. And then in reality, it's like not that big of a hit or at all. And, you know, the, not getting that many sales from it compared to other ones. So, um, things like customer behavior is super important and, you know, countries of course. So, um, there are ways, especially in Klaviyo that you can just easily like segmented and also send emails to these people.

And based on, you know, I kind of consider the, like the weather, if I'm selling like a clothing product or something, or, um, something like that. But, um, yeah, just to make sure that they get the emails on time and that. We're not sending all the emails that 7:00 AM Eastern standard diamond that's middle of the day, their time or.

3:00 AM their time. So it's um, yeah, I think those are the first two things that kind of come to mind. 

Joseph: [00:28:31] Yeah. I personally wouldn't have thought that, uh, at the time of the day that the email is sent is relevant, but then I realized how my mood changes over the course of the day. Like if I'm, if I, if I get an email early on in the morning and I'm still, you know, getting warmed up for the day, I might not be so keen on opening it maybe later on the day or during a lunch while I'm already distracted on my phone.

I'm like, oh, okay. I, I got a need mostly. Yeah. There's a lot of specificity to it. Uh, I, the most specific thing that I can think of is a parallel to say it's a rainy day and I'm in a, the, the, the shopper's drug mart, our local pharmacy chain am I offer, got my umbrella. It's either 10 bucks for an umbrella or a pneumonia.

So I guess I'll go with the umbrella. So if like somebody looks at the weather and they say, well, it's going to be a week worth of rain. Send, sending a name on to saying, Hey, rainy, uh, rain coming up. Uh, maybe you might now might be a good time to get yourself. One of these umbrellas provided the there arrive in time, but that's a whole different matter. 

Francis Nayan: [00:29:28] That that'd be crazy if like you started sending out emails based on like weather predictions.

It's like, oh, you're in Budapest. It's supposed to be, you know, 30 degrees and sunny next year. Sunscreen because we sell sunscreen something. I think I haven't on that level yet. I'm sure there's someone out there who's listening to this and they're like, you fool, you should be doing that. So maybe, maybe in the next three months, I'll talk to my team. We can work on that. 

Joseph: [00:29:53] Yeah. Well it's like, it's, uh, I mean, I'm, I'm saying that with at least some hint of irony, but it really, it comes down to, as the communication technology progresses and it becomes, I think, more easier and more we're just, if there's less resistance to receiving messages, people become more, uh, more aware of it.

I don't know. I'm thinking like minority report point to where people are walking down the street and an ad pops up to say, Mr. Jones. Here's what we have in mind too. So that's just me going off into fancy territory. We'll we'll we'll we'll table that. I don't know, six days, six years we'll come back.

We'll see what, what situation we're in. Uh, hopefully we have jet packs anyways. That's we've got to, obviously we want to talk about the, the content of the emails itself. That's I mean, that's massive. That's, that's key to it. So the first challenge I suppose, is, uh, and we, and we touched on this earlier, so you have to forgive me for restating it.

I do try to avoid this as much as it can, but I'm trying to initially get people's interests. So we've established, some of that has to do with, you know, the, the higher, the open rate, the more likely that is not going to end up in spam. I think some of it is also the, the email inbox is doing some pre guarding on its own.

So it's maybe like Google or outlook or something like that. They're they're having this own look at it. And they're saying this is actually kind of sass and it goes into spam even because I know for a fact that they've screwed up a number of emails, some of which has been very important, you know, hearing from hearing, from friends, even hearing from some companies where I've had, uh, orders.

I think one, I can't, I can't prove this, but I think one time Alec actually thought an email from Microsoft was spam. So I know these things, they don't, I can't, I can't prove that one, but I just thought, I know that just came to my mind. So at the very least provided that there's a key detail that I missed where emails can actually end up in an inbox, even though somebody hasn't gone to the website, maybe you can touch on that.

That'd be great. But if not, don't worry about it. But people have know, they signed up, they provided the information, they are expecting an email. So. How, uh, you know, starting with the subject line, what goes into the subject line to make it appealing enough to want to open it up? 

Francis Nayan: [00:31:54] Yeah. Well, so if someone opts into your list and, you know, they're obviously going to go through like a welcome sequence for some sorts, or at least I hope so.

I've definitely opted in to some lists and I haven't even gotten like welcome sequence. So first of all, make sure you have a welcome sequence subject line and make sure it's relevant to, um, you know, why they opted in the first place, maybe it's a discount. Maybe it's a free PDF ebook. Um, something like that.

So make sure that, uh, you know, the subject line is relevant to why they opted in, but then, um, the content itself should be way more than just here's your free PDF. Here's your 10% off discount. Here's whatever, you know, the, this first email, this is your first impression. This is your time to, to make an impact on your reader and have them be like, whoa, okay.

They're different. They're cool. Maybe they're, um, interesting. Or they can help me. So that's a really important mindset to have your grading, writing the copy for your first a welcome sequence, because you know, it's, it's just a human to human interaction almost. Of course it's an automation, but not necessarily fully human, but, you know, imagine you're going to a party and you like, you need someone and you think they're cool.

You exchange information, you know, one are they, are you guys like hitting up each, like hitting each other up and a decent amount of time being the next day or two days later? Or are you just waiting like a week to have to say anything then to what's the first interaction that you have? Is it just like, Hey, do you want to jump into bed with me?

Or, Hey, give me 10 bucks. No, you want to create that rapport. You want to create that connection from the beginning. So my idea of my philosophy is that in that first welcome sequences to tech, pretty much roll out the right project for them, explain the benefits of the brand and the product that you have then making me feel good for being there.

So, no, of course not every company is going to be quirky and cute, things like that. You don't have to be. But you need to mention what makes your brand different. You know, what is where you say unique that people like you in the first place, um, and that's going to stay. If you do that well enough, then they're going to look forward to the next email in the next email and the next email. Especially if you're able to set their expectations and literally tell them like, because you're on this email list are going to get 2, 3, 4 or five daily emails.

Again, depending on what your strategy is, and then, you know, kind of creating a connection between all of the emails. So, and that helps you kind of condition them to look forward to your next emails. So then your open rates do go up then, so then your sender reputation goes up. So then you're landing and more primary inboxes.

So then people see more emails. So then you make more sales and then, um, yeah, I just think it's a super important in that first email to make the impression. 

Joseph: [00:35:00] So you know, I didn't, I didn't know. That was a thing to be honest with you and that, and I get loads of emails, so I'm certainly, I've, I'm sure I've, uh, I've had countered it a number of times.

You know, I do have my own, my own store. You've been, you've been a listener. So you, you do know kinda like a little bit bits and pieces of my journey, you know, my service coming along. Uh I'm, I'm still testing out the remaining my product before I, uh, you know, market it and all that. And I honestly would have thought that somebody signs up for the newsletter.

They are just going to be the recipient of whatever happens to be the next email in the sequence, because I would just have, you know, my, my, my email newsletter maybe once a month, maybe once every two weeks, whatever the plan was, if I wouldn't have thought to provide, you know, a welcome email to them now that they've, uh, they've become a little bit more, uh, closer with the brand.

So that right there is fantastic. Now, would you consider that an automation to the point where it's yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I guess one of the thing, um, I'm not asking so much about whether or not this is a, uh, a good idea, although, you know, feel free to touch on that. If you, uh, you know, if your expertise can speak to it, but I guess I would want to also have different welcome sequences depending on how I have acquired the email.

Like for instance, if somebody just signs up for the newsletter, they get the coupon, but they haven't purchased anything yet. I feel like the email sequence for them might be a little bit more introductory into the brand, into the mission, whereas if somebody has made a purchase and then they, as soon as they sign up with their email, I, I think there's a little bit more warmth there.

And so the customer they've already purchased it. So I say, well, you know, thank you for your support of A, is that worthwhile? And B, is Klaviyo, which seems to be the, um, the email marketing app, or is that set up so that I can actually target two different, um, uh, era, uh, areas where people come to the door?

Francis Nayan: [00:36:46] Yeah, definitely. Definitely. You can definitely do that. I mean, it's, it's all about just creating the form and also creating the, that has to do. I'm about to get like really I'm about to fail, kind of explaining this tech side. I've seen like my assistant do it and I've done it a few times, but it's hard for me to explain.

So basically, because Klaviyo has your data, then when you go to their website, you can create different popups depending on your behavior. So if you're a past purchaser, then the, the pop-up that comes up can be, can be different compared to someone who hasn't purchased at all. And that's actually a really cool way for, for brands that I've seen do.

And I've seen other experts explain this, that like, you know, when a former purchaser comes back to the site and they get this new pop-up of like, oh, it's our June sale or something, then it's like, just another way to create. You know, another piece of engagement to put in an email list that shows that they're more, you know, they're very interested, even though they bought before and they care enough to like try to get a code and, you know, they want put their they're emailing to get the code and things like that.

So, um, you can definitely do that in Klaviyo because, you know, you can make it to where, um, if someone signs up, you can filter them out like a past purchaser. Yes, no, yes. Send them into this , uh, the sequence, um, if they're yes, that they have purchased and sounds of the other branch. So you can definitely do that.

And I think it's, it's very good. I mean, I know that's actually super, super, super common. I think a lot of stores, you know, they definitely don't do that. I think they should. Um, especially if they're trying to be more Brandy and, you know, try to be a little more different and robust, but yeah, if you have, uh, Yeah, the creativity to do that.

And you want to, anything that kind of creates like a, a tailored kind of custom message I think is, is invaluable and just do it. 

Joseph: [00:38:43] Yeah, well, I mean, I, I think it has a lot to do with the, you know, the, the fight in, uh, within the brand or who who's running it. If they, if they, if, especially, if they know they're getting into a niche where there are some huge, um, uh, Goliath in that particular niche, and that's basically any niche, really, you know, the more that they're willing to, to do that, the thing I I'm certain that that would provide a lot more of an individual, um, uh, yield for each individual customer.

If they really feel like they're getting something, uh, particular to them. So there's, you know, there's, there's a whole, whole branch of different ways that I, I can take this. There's certainly a lot more, um, to ask. So, um, let's, let's get into, I guess, the, uh, you know, the meat of the copy itself. So some of the things that we've touched on just to reiterate, you know, you don't necessarily have to be quirky.

There are different. Um, vibes, I guess, that you can convey in it. Uh, what would you say are some of the, some of the more common ones that you've seen? And I suppose I have written yourself and I guess as a writer, like I'm, I see myself as a creative writer too, you know, I've, I I've, uh, I've, I've dabbled it throughout my entire life.

So I know that there are, there's a range to my writing style in the same way that a singer has ranged to their voice. So, um, do you, do you feel you have a range with it as well? Or is there like, is there certain styles that you have a little bit of a harder time adapting? 

Francis Nayan: [00:40:00] Yeah, for sure. For sure. I mean, I think when I was like a big agency writer, then I was going into like different niches, different voices in tones, and I was able to really stretch myself as a writer to see what I can do.

There are some things I definitely can't do just because there's certain vernacular certain words that, um, the, the demographic uses that I don't really know. Now, for example, like golf. And when I tried, um, I have a golf client right now and I'm doing my best to sound like I play golf. I've never swung a golf club before or anything like that.

So, um, you know, that like using like certain vernacular and using it like correctly and it can be a little bit tough for me, you know, honestly, but the ways that I have succeeded is when the company I'm writing for, there's a bit of a brand persona and there's an actual name and person to it. So a lot of e-commerce businesses that I've worked with, they use like, you know, Jesse, the customer success manager or the expert, or like the customer happiness expert or something, they're trying to get really cute with it.

And so kind of writing, you're taking on the persona, the persona of like an actual human being, then that's actually a lot easier because then you can, you can throw in a little bit more personality in there because you also have a lot of cushioning and forgiveness to where if you're not a hundred percent on all the time, then it's just like, oh, well maybe Jesse, the customer having this expert was just a little down that day or not as happy or something.

So it has a bit more of a human element to it. Um, I think I've really succeeded in doing that. And I like doing that. It's really fun. Um, I think it gets, it can be pretty difficult when you're just speaking as the brand, because you know, there's no introduction of like, this is a person it's like, we are this company and you can get.

I've noticed that sometimes I feel drought the same, like words and things like that. So, um, but it's all about just doing the research to seeing what the customers, what do they like about the product? What do they don't like, you know, why they bought the product in the first place? So that comes in a whole lot with, with the research.

And sometimes I surprise myself with how well I've written in a certain voice sometimes. Totally disappointed in myself, like the golf for example, right? 

Joseph: [00:42:12] Yeah. Uh, it, uh, sorry. I was just fighting the urge to not to get into my repertoire of, uh, of golf ponds. Just the one I was about to say what I had to stop myself from saying it in context was it does take a while to get into the swing of things, but, uh, you have to have drive. Okay. So yeah. I, I it's it's it's all good. I may or may not have that teed you up for that.

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I guess this is like a semantical question. Does anybody, uh, do the clients, do they read the email before it goes to the, uh, to, to the audience, just to make sure that they're like, they're, they're copacetic with it because they can provide notes.

Cause I figured like, especially if it was an area that I hadn't had any prior experience, not even like we sports or golf or something like that, like I feel like I would really want the client to look at this first, before it goes out to the masses. 

Francis Nayan: [00:43:26] Yeah, definitely. That's part of my process just because it's, you know, I do have my own writing style and sometimes that bleeds into, let's say the first few emails that I write.

So I always get their feedback on how I can improve, what am I doing? Because sometimes I think I'm the absolutely killing it. And they're like, I'm like, this is like so great. It's so good. And they're like, yeah, we don't use this word. Or like, that's way too happy. Or don't use this exclamation mark.

Sometimes it can be too, like through the point where they're like, don't use that exclamation mark. There it's too. It's too much. I'm like, okay, I'm sorry. So, um, yeah, I try to get it. And sometimes we, I get like client conversations in which I explained to them, why do this? Or do that? So, um, cause yeah, um, several of the clients I've worked with in the past, they're like, oh, I want to be very straight forward and, and things like this, but then maybe it does.

I think it might hurt their brand. They're just too, too short. And then to add just a little bit more context and copy. So, um, yeah, it's definitely part of like my plan is just to make sure that the clients happy 

Joseph: [00:44:31] from, from experience has been a situation where. Um, like the clients had disagreed with something, but then you made a compelling case why like your expertise is actually managed to have the final say compared to their, their take on the matter.

Francis Nayan: [00:44:44] Yeah. Yeah, it's definitely happened. Um, it's never happens in just like one meeting, um, especially, you know, the clients in which they were doing. They were writing their own stuff before and they are very adamant on kind of like keeping it, you know, have a hard time letting it go and do, you know, do my work.

Um, and it has happened. And, you know, I always tested, I say, let's just test it. If you believe your way is better than mine blessed, just, you know, do a 50, 50 split on an automation or instead of emails and let's see what works. And, um, I typically win. Sometimes I lose maybe one out of 10 times I lose, but, um, it's a, it's something that.

As long as we can test it, then I'm happy. It's like, at the end of the day, I want it to work. I want this, this part of their business to succeed. So I say, we can test it if I lose, I lose. At least we're making more money for you guys. So yeah, exactly. Yeah. 

Joseph: [00:45:44] Well, that's a great solution to the issue. It was just a split test it and just say, well, you know, why don't we just try both ways and we'll see what ends up getting the better.

Francis Nayan: [00:45:50] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I they're always open to it. I mean, Ogilvy said always be testing things. So we just go by that method and we'll see what works. 

Joseph: [00:45:59] And one of the things, one of the terms that I, that I'd seen is, you know, when you're writing emails is, um, to, to meet them, to make them evergreen, you know, it's really endowed them with that, uh, long lasting quality.

And the reason why I personally find this as important is because. Well, send me some of the podcasts that I listened to it. They they're like my daily dump of information and news, and I've never deleted their email because anytime that a subject is brought up, I can pull up their email and just scan through them because they have links to different news articles.

And so it's a great reference material. So some of them are going to last me for years and years and years, just because you never know when I'm going to have to pull up a certain something. So, um, when you say, you know, evergreen, like what is the, really the, the length of time that, you know, this content is going to hold water in, in the long run?

Francis Nayan: [00:46:49] Yeah, I mean, yeah, when I say evergreen, it's usually just something that long-term is just the main word. Eventually things change. The market changes, you know, we were talking about resegmenting maybe we want to focus on another segment that fits a certain voice. Um, it's really, until we see a certain dip and, and the, the results, you know, and then at that point, we kind of take a step back, go back to the drawing board and start testing out more things.

So, but it's mainly more about focusing on the automations and seeing how, you know, these can actually stay up for long, you know, much longer. So. Anytime that we I've had welcome sequences that were absolutely killer, 90% open rate, you know, absurd place ordering. And then six months later it like goes drastically down for some reason.

And so, um, it's something that we kind of strive for forever, but we know that's unrealistic, but you know, it's a, it's a goal that we have that, you know, is there a way that we can create an automation or something that can be, you know, the control as we say in copywriting, you know, for as long as possible, hopefully forever.

Joseph: [00:47:56] Yeah. I mean, and it just going back to the, you know, some of the other emails that I've received, you know, I, I will say personally, a lot of the times I don't, I don't read them, but I know that I've, I've got them a storage. So one that I've happened to give an example too, is a manta sleep. You know, I've got an, I love my sleep mask and I've been using it for a couple of years now.

Even if I forget to wash it more often than I should, but that's a different case. And they've, you know, they provide a lot of information on, on sleeping and, and I've read some of them, but I haven't read all of them, but they're all there. And so, you know, one of these days I might just like go through all the emails and just do like a three hour session, just, uh, just on studying all of this.

I mean, some of this will, and I'm afraid that some of the stuff can't be tracked on the user end, because I don't think that there's other than the open rate, like you would, I guess you would have to see, oh, all of a sudden he opened up a bunch of these, but we're talking about like three years down the line possibly.

So a lot of that camp can't be discovered, but I think it just does speak to the overall importance of, you know, making the copy be it'd be worthwhile if somebody's time, even if, uh, if they don't get to it right away. 

Francis Nayan: [00:48:57] Yeah, definitely. Definitely. And, um, yeah, I mean, you can also click you to sort of like, you can also detract, you know, what are people clicking on in the emails?

And I mean, there's certain blogs that you want. Promoting and showcasing and that, like, you notice that there's a lot more clicks on it in the past. And you know, sometimes there's like an absurd amount and you're like, oh, I guess people really like that type of content. I'm going to make sure that's in my evergreen sequence.

I'm going to put that in my welcome sequence. So, um, it is something that you can, you can take a look at and see like, oh, that's really popular. I'm gonna use that maybe forever or at least keep using it. Cause it's a hitter. So, um, yeah, always be, always, always be looking at your analytics. 

Joseph: [00:49:37] Have you, have you seen people say like, I guess, I guess this would be tempting if I was writing a blog and a newsletter, I might just want to like repurpose the content.

Have you seen people do that where they just, they get their blog content turns into email or email turns into blog content. I guess if it were me and I just wanted to repurpose the material, I would, I would send it as an email, but then maybe like in a couple of months I would repurpose it as a blog just to have the content there.

I dunno. Is that, have you seen people do that? Because that's be, it seems like a good use of the content, but I don't know if that might come across as trying to like. You know, uh, stress the, the, the, the value of they're a little too thin. 

Francis Nayan: [00:50:13] I know repurposing is, is huge. And I definitely see that in, in crazy, crazy, crazy ways.

You know, I've seen people write, you know, an email that was also a blog post, and they're going to maybe structure it around. So then they can use it as like a Facebook post and then something that will put it on LinkedIn. And then if it's like really good, they'll just save all of the stuff they ever repurposed, and then turn it into a ebook.

And then yeah. Then the ebook will, instead of just being an ebook, they'll record the voice. And then now it's an audio book and then it's like, it's literally, like, it can be pretty intricate and pretty impressive. Cause I definitely read blogs or um, even like a YouTube ad, I actually wrote, I wrote like a YouTube ad for a client of mine and he was like, oh, I'm gonna use this for, um, my email is too.

I'm like, oh, okay. And then I found out he was using it for his ebook and he posted it on like his LinkedIn and I'm like, whoa, like. All over the place. And so it's definitely see that. I think it's really smart. Um, of course, eventually if you have like a super fan and they're like, uh, he uses like everything all the time, the same thing all the time, then they can get pretty tired.

I mean, definitely I'm that super fan it's happened to me before. And so, um, but yeah, I think it's pretty smart. 

Joseph: [00:51:25] Yeah. You know, once you get past the value of start to understand that, you know, this is a business and it is, it's not, I mean, from my perspective, it wouldn't just be like, I'm just trying to be cheap about it.

And just try to like, you know, recycle content. It's more of a motivation to make the content in the first place, knowing that there is, you know, a lot of, um, a lot of routes that the content can take down the line.  It does remind me of like, I mean, we hear about this story once in a while, where somebody, they see a stand-up comedian for the first time and they, and they see their 30 minutes and they're like, oh, this guy's great.

And then they come back maybe like the next week. And he does the exact same materials. Like I thought he says something different every time. Like, you know, you, you, you, we, we don't want to base too much of the market off of a. Uh, on that side, but that is, it's kind of just an interesting observation because you know, that the people who are there to discover it are always the people who will get the most of a reaction to it.

So it's always, uh, the people in that discovery phase that I think are the most important people to reach out to. Once you get people who are like, you know, they start to understand that the SeaPass avail probably a different means to communicate with them. 

Francis Nayan: [00:52:30] Yeah. I think that's been segmentation is key because I didn't need you to start recruiting a different message, different content.

Joseph: [00:52:36] So I looked at your blog, um, because you are a writer, of course. So looking at your blog would be a, uh, a worthwhile, um, uh, use of my time. And, um, I'm about to use a term that will explain why other than the 12 times somebody is dropping an F bomb. Uh, not that I'm keeping specific track or anything. Uh, but this is why we don't bother with the, uh, the, uh, safer kids one, but the term marketing incest I thought was like, You know, it's, it's a, it's, it's, it's a PA it's a pattern interrupt, you know, I, I certainly, okay.

Well, this is a, a potent term. Let's have a look at that. If I were to, I think in, in my view, I'm like, oh, I wonder if I would call it a marketing inbreeding or marketing incest, but either way, it's a, it's certainly an important thing that we need to keep in mind. So, um, explain to us what the, what this concept is and, you know, the, the dangers behind it.

Francis Nayan: [00:53:26] Yeah, yeah, for sure. Marketing incest, that was a popular one. I'm speaking of purposing, that was actually an email, like an email sent to my list and I just repurposed it into a blog posts, evergreen reading. So marketing incest, basically the idea of like using other people's, um, stuff that other content and repurposing it as yours.

So not repurposing it as the way that we were just talking about it, but more, just in a way stealing it and just using it as, as your own and the kind of using as it as, as a, as a template. And you kind of. Um, yeah, use that as a template. And it's something that I, I kind of thought of, cause you know, I'm not a big social media guy, but when I would go on like Facebook or something and see all these, you know, business owners and they would just start posting like the same type of stuff, the same stories, the same questions.

Um, and you have good at that my, my, my emails and read different, you know, emails that people are sending out and they're all sounding the same. For example, like the may the fourth, um, holiday we had, we probably had a bunch of emails that said, may the fourth be with you? And it's basically just using the same stuff that everyone's do.

And I just call that marketing access. Cause it was just like mashup of content DNA to do create something that's very ugly. I think I got lost in my words there, but basically it's the way I described people just being really boring and using the same stuff over and over again. And that's always a big problem with me because I want to be entertained.

You know, I'm a consumer as well. And so that's why I, the way I create emails and, and Greg opics, my clients is to make sure it stays. It's a way from the, from the, from the incest and instead make it more individual, make it more unique, make it very different to the point where like, if somebody were to swipe this, then they would know it was stolen from the certain brand.

That's my whole philosophy around it and that's marketing incest. So yeah, just be as unique as possible with your brand and have fun with it. 

Joseph: [00:55:30] And, and I think this isn't just about, you know, um, want it to be unique for uniqueness sake. It's also about, um, fending off. I think other people's desire to take our quality content, uh, because someone somewhere thought of may the fourth, which, you know, Disney is more powerful than most governments.

So I would be surprised if that at some point it actually manages to be like a full on holiday. We're bringing back spike TV for the day. We're just going to run star wars on it. So, uh, so, but it's, it's about, uh, constantly being at the creative forefront of what it is that we're doing. And so while all of these other people there rip off something that we have written three months ago, the brand has continued to evolve and change and provide more insight for, for the audience. And so, um, the, I think that's part of the motivation too. Isn't, isn't just like, you know, just to be unique for uniqueness sake, but it's also like, this is how you prevent other being perceived as the one doing the ripping of the offing, because if somebody else happens to see that content first, then they see ours.

And I think, well, hold on a second, you know, who thought of it? So, um, and it is that's one that I can think of, but I'm wondering if there's other tactics or methods that people have devised to kind of like keep these, um, these leeches. 

Francis Nayan: [00:56:43] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it really depends on the, on the product and the service or something, you know, it's, it's, um, I've seen a lot, you know, especially in slightly away from e-commerce, you know, I've seen a lot in, in the, in the biz-op niche or the dating niche where they're basically just saying the same thing over and over again, and they're kind of losing the, the point of explaining the unique mechanism of their, of their company. And so, um, yeah, it's just something that's kind of a, it's a bit of a plate. I think I didn't put that in my blog posts. It's like, I think I've seen a plague going on in the marketing world or something. I think it was, I think I just watched contagion like the day before I wrote that or something.

So, um, but yeah, I think it's a, it's a term that I, it's something that I see like all the time, even though I wrote a blog post about it, it's still happening. So I know it's not life changing, but it's um, yeah, I just see it everywhere. 

Joseph: [00:57:36] Right. Well, I guess the good news of it is that. People are people are doing this.

And so it is the opportunity to stand out, you know, in order to have a pattern interrupt, there has to be a pattern first. So, you know, for the, for those who can, uh, who can capitalize on it, uh, more power to them. The other thing is funny too. Cause you mentioned, uh, you mentioned dating apps and one part of this, um, that made me think about like, I don't know what the intention was when they started Tinder, but Tinder's certainly created a reputation for a certain form of, you know, um, uh, relationship, uh, the kind of that, um, you know, don't last very long.

Uh, well boy, uh, there was double meaning there, if there was ever, uh, uh, unintended, double meaning, but there you go. So I do think some of it also has to do how the brand is perceived and how they might want to recognize how people see them and then, uh, re uh, re adopt their messaging a little bit more to that, because sometimes you have a massive abetted, like what tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people who are all communicating among one another and almost like deciding the brand for them.

So I'm just wondering if you've seen examples of like that, where the brand really shifted in a natural way, based off a base of how the audience was interacting with them. 

Francis Nayan: [00:58:53] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think I see that I definitely see that every few months. And I definitely look at them my email list and I'm like, okay, things are definitely different here, you know?

Um, I guess just to go back to the dating thing, I mean, there was a company that I used to work with back in Budapest and, you know, they weren't really doing anything with their email list. And, you know, if they did sends on things is fairly basic, a hundred, 150 words, maybe. And then I'll just recently I've noticed that they're more like story-based and they're using more examples of their students' success and things like that.

So I definitely do see like little changes here and there. And I think that's just like the evolution of any business really. I mean, I see that in e-commerce brands as well in which maybe they were quite young when I first fell upon them. But then, you know, as the year, maybe two comes around their website, their emails start to look a little bit more sophisticated and their copy has a bit more personality to that.

So. It's a definitely, it's a good thing. I think it's quite common. And I think you should also be trying to create some type of evolution in your business every year, especially in your messaging. 

Joseph: [01:00:04] Certainly, certainly, certainly to be open to it. Like I, there's a fine line between, you know, uh, um, forcing it upon the brand, but also, um, being too resistant to what is a natural evolution of it.

So there's certainly, um, uh, a balance between those two points now with that said, uh, I ain't got you very much longer, but I feel like we've, we've, we've established like 12 threads and there's a whole bunch of other things that we can get to. So, you know, if you want to give yourself a quarter or two and then come back on their show, pick up where we left off.

I mean, I would love to have you back. Um, but with the little time that I have you left a lesson that I want to hear about is. I guess really just how you, uh, how you got into copywriting because, um, you're doing very well. You know, you have a, you have a great deal of freedom and I don't know exactly how many hours a week you worked, but you seem to be pretty happy with the amount of hours that you have.

So how did you get to this point exactly? 

Francis Nayan: [01:00:56] Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I mean, that's kind of a crazy kind of a thing. I mean, I use copywriting as a way to yeah, feel freedom. And so it's one of those things that I kind of feel like it was kind of ahead to do yeah. Several years ago. I think if you go to my blog or you join my email list, you hear about, I guess my pastor Francis, I, and we're dealing with addiction and things like that.

And so, um, when you're in an addict, you don't have that much for, you know, so I think when I was getting into my twenties, I wanted, and I was cleaner, clean, cleaner, clean. I was, uh, you know, I, I wanted freedom. So when I, I first fell upon copywriting when I was in my second year of teaching in Budapest and I realized I did not like to teach, I wanted to do something completely different.

And so I went online. Looking up, you know, how to make money online. Of course, too, bowl thing and fell upon a bunch of stuff. Didn't know what to do. And then I actually ran into a German guy at a bar and he was 20 years old traveling the world. And I'm like, what do you do if you're 20, you're not even in school, you don't have a degree.

Like, what do you do? And he's like, oh, copyright. And I was like, what's that like, are you a lawyer? You know, I thought it was a copyright infringement and no, he's like, no, I sell, I sell products with written text. And as a writer myself back then I still considered myself a writer, more like journalistic style.

I was intrigued. And so I just asked him, how do I learn how to do this? You know, where do I begin? He just gave me a bunch of resources, fin lobstermen. If you're listening to this, we're making you proud, man. But, um, yeah, he, that's how I started. And then I think like a month later I just decided to go all in.

I didn't even have a laptop. I just like bought like a really crappy $200 laptop on like Facebook marketplace and just. Yeah, it was just like hustling, trying to get any type of work, but then it kind of became, yeah, my evolution was like, I just fell upon email marketing agency started to, you know, everyone has taught me to niche down.

So you start to focus more on email and learn the software along the way. And yeah, it's grown to what it is. 

Joseph: [01:02:54] Hmm. Well, you know, I, I'm happy to, to, to hear that. And I really wanted to get that question in before I get you on Atty it'd be just because there's a, there are a number of routes people can take, um, all of which, you know, uh, here at Ecomonics all of which have to do with e-commerce, but yeah, that's, it it's been a, it's been quite a few interviews and I haven't, I've talked to, I've talked to copywriters, I've talked to people mostly on like representing agencies, such as a Daniel booty, but to just to hear what, you know, what you're up to, uh, on an individual level, I think it's fantastic.

And, and I think it's very encouraging for anybody. Who's got that creative bent, you, even myself included. Uh, you know, I certainly look forward to being able to use my writing, to, to convey my brands. So that's certainly, uh, in the cards for me, but you know, it, it is great to hear that this kind of work, um, is not only there. Um, but it's also, you know, I, I'm going to say lucrative, but I really do mean that in however, the most positive way lucrative can be.

Francis Nayan: [01:03:46] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's a copywriters. They do have a certain amount of, you know, a good amount of freedom and they make a good amount of money, especially if you're in the red circles and you write well.

And if you can, if you're a good writer, the, the great high paying clients who, you know, even require you to work less are gonna find you. 

Joseph: [01:04:04] Exactly. Uh, all right, well, uh, I know we gotta, we gotta get you on out of here. So, uh, we'll, we'll wrap it up here. And then, um, like I said before, more than happy to have you back, um, it, it doesn't mean it doesn't mean a lot to know that like over time people are finding the show and, uh, uh, and are not only that is don't be not just an audience, but also, uh, people who have elevated themselves to a higher level. So, you know, uh, uh, again, I just, uh, it's, it's, it's certainly, you know, uh, kick this Monday off to a good start. So I really appreciate that. And the last thing is, um, just let the audience know how to find you, and you probably know what I'm also gonna ask.

Cause, uh, you know, you're a longtime listener or short, medium term short term. I don't know. I didn't ask that for our point is, uh, if you have any final words of wisdom or a preferred proverb or anything along those lines, feel free to share. And then, like I said, let the audience know how they can, uh, uh, reach out to and learn more about you. 

Francis Nayan: [01:05:01] Yeah. I mean, I think my one little piece of advice is just to keep driving your mindset, keep trying to figure out how to kind of push through anything that's really stopping you and that's you stopping you. So, um, you know, do your research, read some books, talk to a mentor. And yeah, take care of yourself and yeah, you can keep up with me and, uh, join my email list at storiesand copy.com.

And I'll send you a free copy of my ebook also if you join. And I send emails to my list about two to three times a week, about different stuff, about copywriting, email marketing, traveling, anything that's really on my mind. So yeah, stay in touch with me there. 

Joseph: [01:05:40] And, uh, and to our audience, um, if you happen to be like Francis and, you know, you are in this space as well, uh, I, I demand that you reach out to us.

So podcast@debutify.com, uh, and to everybody else, um, there are a hundred million things that you can do with this space. And, and, uh, we've only just scratched the surface of what there is. So whatever route you think is best for you to take, there is a route in here for you. So, uh, we hope that we, uh, have already helped you discover that, or we will continue to do that for you.

So all the best take care, and we will check in soon.

Thanks for that. You might've found this show on many number of platforms, apple podcasts, Spotify, Google play Stitcher, or right here on Debutify. Whatever the , if you enjoy this content and want to help us thrive, please take a few moments to leave a review on apple podcasts or wherever you think is best.

We also want to hear from you. So whether you think you'd be a good guest or want to weigh in on anything related to our show, you can email podcast@debutify.com or connect with us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and Tiktok. 

Finally, this podcast is created by the passionate team at Debutify.

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