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Jason Gan - Sequential Advertising And The Key Pillars Of Creating And Reaching Your Audience on Facebook

icon-calendar 2021-06-29 | icon-microphone 1h 3m 59s Listening Time | icon-user Debutify CORP

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Crucial to the success of ads, and not just FB ads but advertising altogether is that precious formula we should all know like the back of our hand; hook, old bad / new good, benefits, CTA. What I found a particularly insightful takeaway from my guest today Jason Gan of the Tribeup academy is the idea of taking this formula and parsing it out over a set of videos to make each section more effective. For my long time audience, this is where understanding the basics leads us to being able to take that understanding and apply it to more in depth concepts. 

Jason is a Facebook Blueprint Certified Professional since 2017, and Facebook Preferred Marketing Partner. He has helped over 5,000 individuals and over 200 brands navigating success in Facebook advertising.



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Jason Gan: [00:00:00] So what is the conversion we know for a lot of product. And in fact, they have no clue. Like for example, in our part of the world, usually for the conversion for any e-commerce product is usually within three to seven days. So the key here is that if you retarget for 30 days, my question to you would be, what are you selling that requires 30 days to think about this? When you do a 30 day retargeting, I'm not saying that it's wrong, but if you're retargeting one single  same image, or same creative, you're going to wear this people out.

Joseph: [00:00:35] You're listening to Ecomonics, a Debutify podcast. Your resource for one of the kind insights into the world of e-commerce and business in the modern age. This is Joseph. I'll be presenting a wealth of industry knowledge from interviews with successful business people and our own state-of-the-art research. Your time is valuable. So let's go.

Crucial to the success of the ads and not just Facebook ads, but advertising altogether is that precious formula we should all know at the back of our head. Hook, old/bad, new good, benefits, CTA. What I found a particularly insightful takeaway from my guest today, Jason Gan of the Tribeup academy is the idea of taking this formula and parsing it out over a set of videos to make each section more effective. For my longtime audience, this is where understanding the basics leads us to being able to take that understanding and apply it to the more in-depth concepts. 

Jason Gan it is great to have you here on Ecomonics. How are you doing today? How are you feeling? 

Jason Gan: [00:01:34] Good. Thanks. How are you, Joseph? Thanks for having me here. 

Joseph: [00:01:37] Thanks for being here.

I was glad to be able to check out your material. Your definitely, your expertise is certainly welcome, uh, on the show. So, uh, it's, it's going to be great to be able to really dig into a lot of what you're up to these days. And so that right there is our opening question is tell us what you do. Tell us what you're up to these days.

Jason Gan: [00:01:52] Okay. Thanks. Um, well, I have been helping brands begin small navigating success on specifically on Facebook advertising since, uh, 2010. So for the past 10, 11 years, I've been working with close to, um, in terms of brands wise, I work with more than 200 brands specifically on Facebook advertising in terms of having, having them do really, um, you know, manage that campaign, strategize that campaign.

But I stopped doing that and I started training in 2016. So, um, you know, over the years I was thinking that I could put together something that I've learned from all these crazy campaigns to help those, um, especially small businesses, because I realize a lot of people have been really wanting to jump on Facebook advertising.

They find it difficult to find it confusing. So I've been training since 2016 and 5,000 people later. Uh, these where we are. So yeah, it's very specifically on Facebook advertising. 

Joseph: [00:02:45] Yeah. And I think confusing is, uh, is, is putting charitably because it can be, it can be intimidating to even look at the data there and try to parse what's going on.

Uh, it can be intimidating to want to get into it. So I think there's just like a recording around like the 90 mark. So thankfully I've had the opportunity to talk to other people who, uh, who are also in a similar, uh, way that you are, but I would still love to post some of those questions to you because the more takes we can get on it the better.

So what has been some of the more intimidating or limiting factors for people who are looking to start on Facebook ads? How do they start to get oriented with the, um, with the service and be able to understand the information hopefully not in the span of like two or three years. 

Jason Gan: [00:03:29] I mean, um, you mean how, what are the things that find that people find it confusing? I mean, I. 

Joseph: [00:03:35] Yeah, definitely that, like I would say on the, on the starter side, um, what are some of the people that have, what are some of the things that people struggle with first trying to understand and how it all works? 

Jason Gan: [00:03:43] Well, uh, when it comes to Facebook advertising, in my opinion, there are three main factors, or I rather call them the three main pillars of what makes a good Facebook ads campaign.

So, um, in my opinion, it has to be able to send the right message to the right people, to guide them, to take the right action. So that's summarizes the treatment field as, as the right message being the ad creative, you know, these, one of the things that a lot of people have been like, you know, they always struggle not because, um, they struggle to find the right way, but they struggle because they constantly having these urge to churn new content.

You know, they always believe that, oh, the best ad is yet to come. If the next ad is, should be the next one, you know, something is wrong with my ad when I hit it learning block. So that's the first thing. And then the other part is of course, everybody drill too much on the audience targeting is what I think.

And in my opinion, sometimes people overdo. In fact, people overdo all the time in terms of the audience targeting. So that's the other part that is confusing. And it does probably is of course the most important part whereby um, you know, what, how, how can you really get the audience to do the thing that you want them to do?

As in like, I mean, let me give you an example. A lot of people actually, like they were trying to get people to click to your website, but ended up, they boosted a post, which, you know, ended up, they will go, they they'll get a lot of lights commands, and they will be frustrated. Why am I not getting clicks?

Because that's where we start, you know, because you started with the wrong action. So altogether. So, I mean, for these three main pillars, I don't wanna have this fall apart, the whole campaign fall apart. So this is where I think a lot of people are struggling with over the years after looking at all these people.

Joseph: [00:05:20] And I hear you say, I'm trying to guide the audience, um, where I think that the step before that, where you would have to come in, as you have to guide the marketer and you have to help them understand what objectives that they're looking for. And that's one thing that I've always, um, not quite understood now, granted, I'm very slow to the, to the take.

Like I do have my own store. Uh I'm so putting pieces together, I have, I have the luxury of, you know, the longer I take the better off I'll be, because I can continue to absorb more information in the position that I'm in. So, you know, go me. But when people set out to have the, uh, objectives. It seems like the most obvious thing is, well, I want my, I want the people I advertise to, to spend money on my product, but it's not, as, it's not so easy.

Sometimes it's also about raising awareness. It's about, um, trying to convey a message, trying to get people to understand maybe an entire, a niche or something along those lines. So when people are trying to guide the audience actions, how are you guiding the seller to figure out what it is they want to do with the audience?

Jason Gan: [00:06:19] Thanks for the question, I think is a very good one because recently. Yeah. I mean, I just because okay. From mine case, right. Other than running mine, my signature six day challenge, I mean, which is my signature six day live Facebook ads training. I also do a lot of, uh, so-called, uh, joint training with, uh, you know, uh, experts from specify specific niches.

And one of the guy that I worked with was a guy who actually achieved roas for his Shopify store, which is the topic that we supposed to, you know, because Debutify is obviously a Shopify theme. Now, when it comes to Shopify store, they have many different combinations altogether. Like for example, if your product, I mean, we will always come back to the complexity of the product.

Like, uh, I work with a lot of so-called e-commerce sellers and a lot of them are actually, you know, they, they should have a very simple journey where they should be getting the traffic first. And then of course, you know, they want to go for conversion, but my guide the other day, because he sells these kinds of like exotic that leather, uh, phone casing, you know, what he found out after he tested it, because these guys were crazy.

Those experimenting, you know, have the walkie reaches nine X consistently, then that's the reason why you  conduct a training together. So his method. He go forward, you go forward conversion all the way. So when he goes conversion all the way he go for the, you know, the deepest conversion, which is the chase.

Now, when it comes to conversion, objective on Facebook advertising, we all know that, you know, Facebook's conversion, you know, be the conversion that we are looking at. Facebook one's a conversion event that has at least 25 fires in the last seven days. So, uh, the advise from Facebook, because I'm also a blueprint certified professional since 2017.

So, uh, we, we, we have been really been advocated by Facebook and these way that you need to have the data, but what this guy did was he actually went all the way for the purchase conversion event. Even if he didn't have. You know, you didn't have 25 in the past seven days. You still go ahead. And in fact that's where he he's, you know, he's great actually came.

So he said, no, it's okay because his logic is this the moment you go forward the action. I mean, because Facebook will look for basically when it comes to the audience targeting, when it comes to Facebook, looking for the people, people who purchase and people add to cart are two different types of people.

Joseph: [00:08:41] Yeah. I can see that. 

Jason Gan: [00:08:43] I mean, Shopify sellers should have this kind of experience, right? Sometimes you get add to carts, but the purchases are really different. So you can actually try, you know, my guy was telling me that go all the way. So that's where he achieved his nine X. And so all the way.

Now, the other category that we are looking at is some, some people who are selling complex product whereby when you drive the boats to your Shopify store, whether you want to go for, you know, either traffic or conversion, it's not just going to work because the moment people land on your store, they're just being confused by the product feed features.

Altogether. So, uh, what we did, you know, in terms of designing the funnels or the so-called, the customer journey a little bit to help them was we actually will, might consider adding a little bit of a, you know, kind of like a lead generation journey in between like getting people to ask question by a message, or even to invite them into a, maybe like a short demonstration or webinar kind of thing.

You know, it worked pretty well for one of my coachee, which is, you know, she sells this, um, like a beauty device, which costs about somewhere about 300 to 400 us dollar. I mean, for something product for Malaysia market and Philippines market may not work that well because people may be like, because it's kind of expensive.

If I'm new to this, I may not want to commit this amount of money into this. So what we did was we added that webinar. A short one, just like a 30 to 40 minutes kind of thing for people to just jump on and to see the feature. So it worked pretty well for this coachee of mine. So I think that pretty much depends on the complexity of the product, I would say, but I would say constant experiment is still very important in these manner.

Joseph: [00:10:22] So one of the things that I would want to get a little know a little bit more about in regards to the webinar is how we were able to, are you able to retain interest in it? Because I mean, we're lucky if people will watch a 32nd ad for five seconds, right? Cause that's why the hook, the hook at the beginning is so important, but to get to somebody, to be compelled, to, to watch a webinar, which can be anywhere between 15 to 40 minutes, it seems like they need to have a lot of interest too.

You know, sit and pay attention to it. And I, and I say pay attention in particular because people can have the webinar going and then end up looking at their phone and then not really, uh, be sold on it after all. So was there like a degree of consumer warmth that they were going after in order to, I guess, guarantee that people participating in the webinar would be participating? 

Jason Gan: [00:11:08] Well, averagedly when it comes to webinar in our part of the world.

I'm not sure about your side of the world because we talk about. 

Joseph: [00:11:15] Sure. Well, let's establish that real quick. I'm in Toronto, Canada. Yeah. So we're, we're in the west. Yeah. 

Jason Gan: [00:11:20] We are actually in Malaysia in the Asia region, Malaysia and I served the region in, I mean, I'm actually pretty much deep rooted in the Southeast Asia region.

So my main market are Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, Philippines, and Thailand. So these are my main markets. So I have a lot of students coming from all these regions. So for these out of the world to be very frank, if a person really like go all the way and stand off to the webinar, we usually will have about 30 to 40% of them.

So that's the first thing. And then when it comes to people who stay on duty and that varies, that pretty much depends coming back to the person, whether are you good at doing it? Are you engaged now to get people to, you know, to do whatever they want to do? So, um, that's pretty much about the number over here.

So, I mean, when it comes to, I mean, that, that pretty much would come back to who are the people that you're inviting to the webinars and states. So we do not go out and invite the strangers to advertise that the advertisement about the webinar doesn't go out to everybody else. It will only go to people who actually qualify, who are qualified.

Like for example, it has to be some those people who visited the website in recent days, like maybe like 30 days. Okay. And of course, if you're added to cart, then we approve probably push for it. So, uh, I brought you all to touch a bit about my two funnel framework whereby we usually run two ads at the same time.

So the first ad is usually to go out and qualify the audience in 10. So usually you either drive people to go to your website or get people to at least consume some part of the video. At least we know that you watch at least maybe like 50% of the video, then I will qualify you as intended. So from that, we will actually drive our re toggling ad for a very specific days of time.

So usually my way of doing retargeting is not about that kind of people that usually people do, because one of the common mistake about retargeting is that we targeting for, um, you know, for too long. Okay. Like for example, if you are re let's say for example, a lot of people, what they do is when it comes to shopping five, we, with a lot of Shopify sellers, um, they will always like to re target people for maybe like 30 days, 60 days or 90 days, because they thought that the longer I re target, I have more audiences.

Joseph: [00:13:26] Right. But I think I would say it's diminishing returns because while retargeting, somebody once shows that there's a great deal of, um, intention to maintain contact with that potential customer 30 days go by sees days, go by, look, I'm not buying the heated brush. 

Jason Gan: [00:13:40] But there's another thing that I always like argue here.

I totally agree with you as yourself, which is, you know, every purchase intent has got an expiry date. So what is the conversion window for a lot of product? And in fact, they have no clue, like for example, in our part of the world, usually for the conversion, for any e-commerce product, it's usually within three to seven days.

So the key here is that if you retarget for 30 days, my question to you will be, what are you selling that requires 30 days to think about it, you know? And even when it comes to 30 days, then you just have to imagine when you do a 30 day retargeting, I'm not saying that it's wrong, but if you're retargeting like one single same image or same creative. You're going to wear these people out. 

Joseph: [00:14:18] Yeah. I, you know, I get the sense that it's a rhetorical question because I don't think there's really many products that takes 30 days to think about, but I would argue that in order for something to, I mean, I don't know why I'm arguing that it's not like I'm an expert on it, but I think the, the, for something to need a little bit more time to consider, it's more about spending time in the problem, which might not have been revealed until the ad was communicating that to the consumer.

So to use my own store, for instance, the product that I'm working on are these jurors, you stick underneath the desk and what's great about them is that it helps people rethink how they use their space, because I'm all about adhesives. Uh, my I'm, I'm not gonna move the camera right now, cause that would upset the editor.

But, um, I have a bunch of headphones stuck to my wall cause I love those wall hooks. So I'm all about like three-dimensional space, just trying to like make people really get the most out of where they live or where they work. So I think for somebody like in my instance, they probably never realized that before and now that they understand the problem, they might need some time to stew in the problem.

So yeah. You know what, actually, my desk can be a lot more clutter. I could, I could, uh, I could fix this up. So that's the logic that I can see now, does that justify 30 days? Probably not, but I can see that taking a little bit more time than, um, than two or three days. 

Jason Gan: [00:15:32] Okay. Here's the thing. What I mean then, then we will have another thing to talk about, which is mine sequence show advertising, which is you see when a person comes to your website, okay.

Instead of the next 30 days, you show them one single ad. You can actually do a drip. You know? Um, my move is very simple. Just imagine right when I come to your website because you were selling something that is a little bit more complex. Now, what if you're able to do a series of advertisement that is being, you know, designing sequenced and communicates each and every one of your USP's.

Okay. Uh, individually to give them enough time, let's say for example, right? We will have USP. Uh, talking about one specific thing for, I mean, we will have one ad for USP, one, for example, for maybe five days. So that may means that if you come to my website today for the next five days, if, I mean, if you come to my website and you don't buy for the next five days, you see F1, which talks about the USP one.

So I, I let you sink in, you know, and then after that, if you don't take action, then on day six, day 10, I will show you another app. If you still don't take action, then probably on days set up or day six to day 10 on day 11 today, five I'll show you another ad. I mean, you just imagine when you're able to do your storytelling in this way, you're able to communicate each and every one of your USP's do your audiences effectively in a sequence because not everyone would like USP one, but if they don't get to know about USP three, they don't buy any exactly the key that, you know, when it comes to a slightly more complex product than you need to really drive these kind of journey.

Joseph: [00:17:00] So with, with this is, this is great. This is actually the first time, um, that I've heard about this. And this is even coming by the way from somebody trying to research you. You know, I get, I get about, I get about 30 minutes to do research. Cause I don't want to like run out the clock or anything like that, but this is, this is great.

So what I'm imagining is that, uh, based on what you're describing, it sounds like I'm advertising one product is not quite the fit, but I do have an array. And so maybe it's a change of color or change of size, something along those lines. And so then I say, well, you're warm to the idea, which is data that I would have collected at this point, but you're not quite warm up to this particular product.

So I would show them the different options. Um, whereas I think another route, and I don't know if it's one canceling out the other or if it's a matter of trying to figure out, which is the best one for the situation it's showing the product. And then in the next ad, showing it from a different angle or showing a different usage for it, maybe focusing more on features and benefits more on benefits and features.

And so it's unveiling more of the product in a more nuanced way. So between those two, does one work and the other has never worked or is it, is there an option C like, are there other ways to do this as well? 

Jason Gan: [00:18:10] In fact, when it comes to framework, my students showed me, I don't know, God knows tens of different combinations because when I teach them the whole thing this way, then I'd get creative because every different business will have different needs.

But I would say that all the variations are possible. You can actually deploy, but the most important things. I mean, I think not enough people, a lot of people out there who advertises on Facebook, actually making a lot of mistake. One of them is actually wasting money on people who have taken certain actions.

Joseph: [00:18:39] I was so relieved when I found out I can pause Shopify. 

Jason Gan: [00:18:42] Yeah. So basically the whole two steps I know for framework aims to solve three main problems. The first one is really your budget. And you're emphatic, which is you just imagine, let's say the first app, you know, when you have an ad that is evergreen, trying to go out to reach all people and you don't do exclusion.

So when a person click, I mean, I'm not sure where to do this, right. You run an ad and you're trying to get people to go to visit your website, but do you exclude people who visited your website? You get what I mean? 

Joseph: [00:19:10] Oh, hold on. Well, I mean, advertising can get pretty specific. So to answer your question, I would say no, because I'm trying to come up with, if I'm trying to come with an ad specifically to get people's attention, then those are the people who've already been targeted.

That's my that's my beat is trying to be the student 

Jason Gan: [00:19:24] here. 

Right. Correct. So if you do not, let's say, for example, if you're having an ad, that's trying to drive me to your website and you do not exclude people who visited. That means that even if I've visited your website, I've consumer and I've been to your website, I might see the same pattern.

You don't know how to let me go. So when you do not know how to let me go the second time I see the same ad because I've taken the action. I would not click again, put it this way, because in my opinion, I've done it, whatever you want me to do, I've done it. And second thing is, you know, it's very unlikely for me to look, you know, a lot of people was thinking that the frequency is very important.

That's why my opinion is that you have to really be able to control. How many times do you show your ads to the people? Because the more you show doesn't mean that people will like you more. In fact, people hate you more because come on, man, when are you going to go away? So that's the first thing we call it, budget waste because these people would not take action again.

And second thing is emphatic. So that's the first thing. So, uh, yeah, these are the things that we want to avoid with the two Stephane framework. And the second thing is when you're able to achieve this optimized framework in a way, uh, your second tier of the ads, which is a retargeting ads, it's going to work so much better than your current retargeting ads, because you're able to do different things.

You're able to do storytelling. You're able to do, you know, drip kind of messages, sequence your message. So that's what I've been trying to advocate to the world, you know, for, for, for the past several years. But I think I probably, you know, we need a little bit more hard work in terms of advocating this thing, but it's really powerful.

Um, the framework has guided tens of millions in baseball at span in the past five years alone. And, um, I've actually worked with thousand plus people in this thing. I think it's really something that a lot of people will have to consider, especially when it comes to young on e-commerce the different kinds of ROI that you're getting crazy.

Joseph: [00:21:15] Well, I have to say like, well, like I mentioned before, I, I don't exactly keep track of how many interviews I've had, but it's been quite a few, uh, I would say around 85 90. And I, this is, you know, unless it was like in that first wave of interviews where I'm really only just starting to understand this.

Maybe somebody brought it up, but other, other than that, this is the first that I've, that I've heard of this. And it sounds so fundamental because what you're really describing is the story arc. It's something that is used in film. It's used in television. It's the beginning, you set up your rising action, drama, climax and conclusion.

And so in order to disseminate that through a set of advertisements is, I mean, it's, it's fundamental to the human experience. I, I don't suppose you could probably give us an example of like, what would be a story arc on one of the more complicated products I would like to hear one, but I understand if there's like, um, client privacy issues that you don't wanna run into.

So whatever you are willing to tell us about it, I'd love to hear it. 

Jason Gan: [00:22:12] I can use my example. We're going to use my example because I kind of use my clients all my coachees example because I don't think it's right. So, okay. Like for example. 

Joseph: [00:22:19] I appreciate that. 

Jason Gan: [00:22:20] Yeah. When I want to actually like one of my front end product is my six day challenge.

So my six day challenge is actually six days straight in a role where I teach you live one hour a day to teach you one key topic a day to help you pick up and implement these two steps and framework. So to everybody who is interested in Facebook, advertising down, you know, there are 4,653 Facebook, X traders out there.

Why me? You know, so what I, what I could do here is that, you know, when you, when I know, let's say when I run ads to audiences, right? So first thing first I'll be using a video. So it's going to be like a minute video. So if you watch this video up to maybe like 25%, then I'll make sure that you will not see my at one again.

So, because that one is for me to reach fresh audiences. So that is my first key qualifier, which is, I want you to be excluded. And if you visit my website, of course, you got it. So that that will become an evergreen campaign. So that's the first thing now. And in turn, when I know you watch this video up to 25% and you visited my website either way.

So the next thing I'm going to show you is I'm going to show you one ad for five days saying that, Hey, do you know, what are the mistakes that you have made when it comes to Facebook advertising? So I try to explain one key mistake at a time, you know, so basically I would actually have a video to talk about mistakes, so that would actually pick up, you know, those people who are really serious and they was still thinking, I don't want have this mistake. 

Joseph: [00:23:42] If I could just, um, insert one thing, just my own learning so far is that this ties into the, uh, old, bad way, new, good way where I think that's like, that's the part of the advertising flow that you've gotten to at this point was you're showing the mistakes people are making, which is the old bad way.

Jason Gan: [00:23:57] Yeah. And then after that, if you still don't take action after watching either all of these videos, right on these six to day 10, I will start telling you that, okay, now, I'll start telling you that look, I'm actually a blueprint certified professional. And just to give you a bit of comparison, because I know that you probably up to now, you're still, if you're still on the bench and you're still considering, then you're probably thinking that who the hell is this guy?

Right. So I'll be like, okay, now this is me. Uh, I've been, I've been doing this for 11 years. I've guided tens of millions and a half that actually, you know, I'm a study fight one and not a preferred agency partner by, you know, by Facebook and all that to give the credibility, because that is the second part of the thing.

So yeah, that will run for day six to day 10. So when, when you're seeing the, the second key message that they stick to, they tend to talk about me. You won't be seeing the first re-targeting ad, which is to talk about a mistake. All right. And then after that, right, if after the day six to 10, you still don't want to take action.

You're that stubborn, fine. You know, on day 11, two day 12, it's a two-day thing. I'm going to give you a discount. Let's say that. Look, this is the last chance come with me at this time. You know, especially the discount code to do this, or, you know, this is it. I won't bother you anymore. So it actually creates that kind of like in a way, uh, the audience would really know that, okay, this is the last device do take action.

If I still want it, I will take action. And if I don't then, okay, fine. This guy won't bother me anymore. And I will make sure that if you come up to now and you still don't buy, you will not see my ad for at least 60 days. So I'll make you happy. 

Joseph: [00:25:30] And, and you're targeting specifically. I mean, I don't just think you're targeting Shopify people, although maybe that's a specific interest group.

If you notice that demographics change from which platform people choose, but it sounds like you are targeting other sellers, other people in the e-commerce. I mean, are, can you tell us like what interests you're using or like how you're, because it is funny to think about for a second, because usually with the interest is targeting people to give them the product.

But in your, in this example that you give us, it's targeting the targeters. So how to, like, how do you know really what interests or what way to get ahold of people's attention? Like how would I, me being someone who could qualify for this, uh, I suppose there is some regional, um, uh, limitations there. I don't know how far reaching, if you're trying to get people in the states or if you really are just focusing on Southeast Asia.

So you can tell us about that part too, but like, um, in terms of targeting people, how are you getting the targeters? 

Jason Gan: [00:26:22] Okay. So basically just to recap a little bit on the four ads, you know, the ad one is really the, you know, the evergreen ad that is reaching out a fresh audience. And ad two is the one that talks about mistake. Ad three, the one that talks about me. Ad four is the final offer. Now ad 2, 3, 4, these are all retargeting ads, there's no, there's no targeting, detail targeting, these things. So the detailed targeting or whatever interests targeting is only on the first ad. Now, when it comes to first ad after so many experiments and all these kind of things in the past many years, I realized that there is no one way to rule them all, but you know what I use, I used to look alike audience.

I mean, this is really depends on the school of thought, but in my opinion, if you're a very high quality lookalike audience, you should consider using a lookalike audience. When I say high quality lookalike audience, let me give you an example. Um, people who like your Facebook page versus people who chase on your website, you know, which one is the higher quality one always go for the highest quality, which is people who purchase.

All you need is really according to Facebook, because I recently just completed my blueprint recertification. And in one of them reading material, I actually, um, because where we talk about creating high quality lookalike audience is really to go for people who are, you know, Facebook always tell that you need to have at least a thousand in this seed audience, which is like, let's say, if you want people who put chase and you must have a thousand in it in order to create the lookalike.

But what I, what I picked up recently is Facebook. You know, even a hundred is good enough. So I would say if you have at least a hundred or few hundred people who bought from you before, just bloody input your phone number and email address and do it and create a custom audience and use that as they look like.

And then when you are using lookalike, my opinion, I'm like, I'm the kind of person who I do not like to have a lot of so-called detail targeting because there's another school of thought where people would test maybe 50 or, you know, 30 different interests. And at the end of the day, what I'm actually arguing here is that when you have, let's say 20 interests targeting, let's say you probably go for Shopify, WooCommerce, WordPress, and each one has an ad set on his own.

Now my argument is this, you know, they might be definitely, they are people who actually like Shopify and WordPress at the same time. So how do you avoid these overlapping? So when you can't avoid overlapping, in fact, these 20 ad sets that you are targeting different interests, they are going to compete among each other.

So when they compete among each other, you know, what is going to happen, your overall cost is going to come. So, and when you're having, when you slice your budget too thin, went into 20 ads, let's say ad sets really different interests. You, you might not be able to exceed learning fast enough for each and every one of them.

So at the end of the day wants the purpose of the test. So it might not always very simple. I'm not trying to prove which interests works better. In fact, in turn, what I'm actually trying to do here is I'm trying to make a campaign work. That's my opinion. So, uh, after several tests, I would say that there is no very specific, you know, so-called a so-called method that, that, that can implement to all.

But I will say, I agree with you. Like, for example, when I run my Shopify course, I'll be targeting people who are interested in Shopify and I will, we'll also target people who are interested in WooCommerce because that could be people who are actually doing research. You know, so because when you'd go for Shopify or WooCommerce specifically is actually the interests and interest means you, if you like their page, you are actually part of it.

Joseph: [00:29:43] Plus you never know. I mean, they could be on one platform one day, but then they can find that another platform was more suited to their needs. 

Jason Gan: [00:29:49] Correct. My method is, if you are going for broad, meaning that you're not using lookalike, I was stack, I will stack probably up to 10 interest together into one, et cetera.

The idea here is that instead of using 10 different ad sets, targeting different interests, I stuck them into one that would actually increases the so-called, the campaign liquidity, which Facebook really emphasized very much lately, meaning that you want to have a campaign liquidity to have more audiences.

I mean, in terms of the size, so that Facebook have more so-called samples to test on, instead of slicing them too thin, it may not work that way. And I will be able to combine all the budget into one, et cetera, in the states. So that will help me the learning faster. So in turn, I would reach the stabilization of the campaign faster since that's what I'm actually doing.

So, yeah, that's my method. 

Joseph: [00:30:34] So what I wanted to ask about in, in regards to the, uh, the multi ad sets, um, uh, alluding to what I said earlier about how, you know, on your second one, where you point out the mistakes that the sellers are making. Um, I compared that to the old bad way, and then as you were describing the rest.

I didn't want to keep interrupting you, but it it's, it's spoke very much to the fundamental formula, which was funny to me because a few episodes ago, uh I'm uh, I forgive me audience. I can't remember who I asked us. I think it was a Christian Lovrecich just to at least put a guest out there. Um, for the, for the sake of it. Is I asked, you know, do we see other advertising formulas?

And for the most part we don't because the formula isn't just, it's it predates Facebook. It, it predates the internet is just core, uh, fun, uh, fundamental formula. So then we tie that to a lot of the advertisements that, um, we, I, I learned about including myself talking to a lot of other people specifically in like the drop shipping Shopify space, where the ad one specific has to do the whole job. So it has it hook. It has to do old, bad, new, good, uh, benefits, CTA. You've you've given all of those steps, more breathing room, I think. So that in the first one, then they see that basically the first ad is the hook. So what I would like to know about, um, how is the first ad, um, effectively pulling its weight so that it continues to move people down into the rest of the formula.

Um, cause then, cause you, cause you say you're, you're, you're checking how long, I guess people, um, look at the advertisement for it. So yeah, I that's, that's what I want to know next is how affect how you make sure that the first ad is effective. Cause I wouldn't have pulled it in the weight, not just for the product which eventually want to get to, but just to get to the other, their ads.

Jason Gan: [00:32:19] Yep. Yep. Okay. Thanks for the question. I think that's a very good one now. Uh, how do you, how do you make sure that first ad, because that's the whole brain. So when it comes to first ad mine, uh, I would really disagree with the method that you're saying just now, you know, in one particular ad it's out that you chuck everything in, just turn the table around.

Do you consume these even bother to click, continue reading and actually try to find out more and all that. 

Joseph: [00:32:43] I mean, for me, it will depend on the, I will say, will depend on the product, but I've also, um, there was like peaks and valleys of my own interests. Like there was a while where I was, I guess, just drunk on ordering things online and I must have ordered like 20 or 30 things in the span of about two months.

So I, I, I have burnt out from that and I'm, I'm, I'm back to my own more discerning method where if I'm going to look at a brand, I do compare them to other household brands that I've seen for, for, for years and years. 

Jason Gan: [00:33:09] Then yes. Okay. But that's, you know, put it back to the very specific niche here. You were talking about a dropshippers and when it comes to drop shippers, you are actually having a brand that is unknown to the audience.

You're not famous. You're not thing. So if you're actually doing a long form kind of advertising, you may not get what you want because okay. Yeah. Different argument. I'm not trying to discount whatever methodology out there, but in mine, my methodology is very simple. My first ad is always going for the intent.

Here's the thing, in my opinion, too many people try to sell on the ad itself. And in fact, in my opinion, you're not selling on the ad you sell after the click. If you agree with me, nobody would decide to buy from you, but from, from you on your product, by looking at the ad itself. So when you're trying to put your whole bloody sales copy on the ad itself, you actually put people off.

So what I'm actually trying to do here is that if you're able to poin you boil your product down to a very, a few, you may not need. I mean, you don't need just one. Now you probably can have, you can test two or three different hoax just to give the most enticing, you know, thing about your product. So, you know, and, and, and up, let's give an example for my case, right?

I would say that for my six day challenge, I'm very simple. You know, my first ad is going always going to be like, learn Facebook ads or six days live, you know, for only $19, will you stop. Where you, at least if you're interested in Facebook advertising and somehow or other, would you at least take a pause at this and say that, okay, that's first it's affordable.

It's not too expensive for me to look into and just talk about six days of live learning then. Okay. That's okay. At least let's take a look at what this guy has got to do. I mean, we'll always go for a, that kind of like to the point kind of advertising for tier one, ed, you know, the ones that I see, good success are those who are really kind of like simple that really captures the right intent.

I mean, intent. So I would go against, if you're trying to, let's say certain people would like to do this kind of like a clickbait, the kind of advertisement design, where they probably do something else. They put a pretty face there and all this, nothing, all they want is to get a click, but in fact, you might get along wrong click.

Here's what I'm actually going for. So your first ad has to be simple. It has to be video. If you don't have, uh, you know, the resources to put up a good video that try to combine several images into a slideshow that will work. And I will try to control your video within 15 seconds. So if you do 15 seconds, that means that if a person spends up to 50%, that is only about six to 7%.

You use that as a qualifier for the next one. The idea here is I want to capture intent instead of selling. So the , because by capturing the intent, I'll be already getting people who are interested to click. When I go to my website, they will buy. But what I want is to qualify the intent to reel them into the second and third and fourth ads.

That's my methodology. That's why to answer your question, Joseph. I think the first ad has to be simple. Okay. And it has to be clear enough to communicate one very important key message about your product to get people. Well, we'll do the next step. 

Joseph: [00:36:15] You know, uh, one thing that, um, uh, struck me as you were, uh, you know, you pose me the rhetorical question, which is what I stop at that ad.

And it just speaks to, I think the difficulty of knowing exactly what part of the niche within the niche within the niche is going to be receptive to it. Because if you, if you would ask me if I had seen that ad, to be honest, I said, well, I mean, I host an e-commerce podcast, so I'm going to ingredient formation four times a week.

So I think I'm good. And then I would think, well, what about my audience? Oh, you know, my audience, I assume that, you know, they're, they're like, well, I could just keep on listening to Ecomonics. You know, I get, I get great information every week. And then what I try to do by the way, um, my, one of my goals is I want the audience to really connect with the people that I talked to and say, Hey, I really agree with this guy's methodology.

I'm going to check them out. So my, you know, some, some people from my audience might say, yeah, yeah, that Jason gang guy, that that's, that's my guy. Know, hopefully I've been able to do that for you today, but then you get to like other people, you know, what position are they in? Are they consuming enough material that they're okay with it?

Do they really feel like they need that extra kick? Is it a regional thing? So in it to summarize all of that, you really have no choice, but to have as many interests as you can think of to cast that wide net. And then from there, you can filter out who was going to be interested and, and that's, and that's the beauty I think, of the learning phase is that part of what you're doing is you're posing a question even to yourself, which is, you know, who am I going to be targeting with this?

Well, here's all the information I do know. And now let's see what I can learn about the people that I am advertising to. 

Jason Gan: [00:37:47] Now you have to another thing that I think we have to really, uh, kind of like, let it go is we have to trust. We have to trust Facebook algorithm in one way or another, because you know, the, I mean, what Facebook promises, of course, some sometime they, sometimes they scream.

Uh, in fact, most of the time, but you know, what they're trying to do here is that they're trying to tell us, you see, w when it comes to the campaign liquidity, as a, as a, as a sped, very specific topic, you know, they actually spend a half an hour as in like to have a reading material that for half an hour, kind of like reading material to talk about campaign liquidity itself.

So I think that somehow, you know, you know, shows how, how, how they think this is important, because what else should try and argue here is that the, I mean, the more time you give a winning campaign, as in like the ad said to really continuously improvise itself, they will say that in the long run, they will give you a better result.

But curious, another thing, you know, which is my two step funnel framework aims for long-term success. When I say long-term means doesn't mean for a year, of course, we will see to at least two to three months down. Because another thing that I'm against is we see a lot of people change campaign or change ad set, change, audience targeting, change, creative.

She changed growed out, which is called coming to the chipping pot. So in my opinion, you might be changing this thing to suit because, uh, let's say for example, right. Sometimes, uh, you have, you have, you have an ad campaign, you have a campaign running well for two weeks, for example. And then for two days it stopped working and I want people to do what, what, what, what will you do when you have a campaign running well for two weeks and it stopped working?

What will you do? 

Joseph: [00:39:21] Pause it, right. I don't want to lose any more money. And then I would go back to the drawing board and rethink is a, is a is a creative, is it. I mean, it's I, the last thing I want to do it, this is me. Like, I am, I'm using drop shipping, but you know, you know, I was raised in like an old, old school, Italian household.

So, you know, we're very like, uh, passionate about what we do. And I, the last thing I want to do is give up on my product cause I do actually genuinely like it and believe in it. Exactly. So that's the last thing. 

Jason Gan: [00:39:46] Exactly. So here's the scenario I'm actually trying to, not you a little bit to think about it.

So, so let's say, you know, running well for two weeks and it stopped working for two days. And then you were saying that you would go back to look at, is it the creative? Is it the audience now, when you thought, when you think about this, then you are discounting the effectiveness in the past two weeks. Right. But in the past two weeks, all these people just went nuts by clicking on it and buying from you.

And you're now saying that, oh, because it doesn't work for two days is the ad creative problem. I mean, this is doing this ad creative, no justice at all. So what usually people, what, usually this is one of the key mistake that a lot of people do, you kill a campaign too, so that you cure that too soon. But what will I do in fact, when you actually try to investigate a metrics, it could be because of the CPM, because for that particular two days, a lot of advertisers coming because of some festive season, the CPM should have.

So that screw ups the whole thing. So if you really want this to continue, then you probably can adjust a little bit to lay low for awhile, then going to keep you up and comes back down and you can come back. So it could be because one of the things CPM, it could be because the other thing it could be because of the frequency, you know, your audience is too niche.

He has reached a certain threshold, meaning that most people have seen it way too many times. You know, then, you probably done in that case, then you want to turn, you want to turn your content, meaning that it's time to create a new creative, but I said, I would totally agree with you. I don't want you to give on when your product too soon.

It's definitely not because of the product. Look, if you look at Canada and US such big country, and I do not know how much you're spending, if you're spending somewhere north like a hundred to $500 a day, you still have a lot of rooms and your, all your budgets should actually, your audience should actually last for like months.

So yeah, I would agree with you. Don't give up on your product too soon, but sometimes you need to learn how to really investigate all these, like, you know, dissect all these metrics to find the right thing to do. 

Joseph: [00:41:33] I'm just taking a second, just, just to process a lot of that. Cause that's, um, a very important insight, uh, sorry.

I, you know, as you're describing, you know, I'm, I, I must've written down like a ton of notes, which by the way, I don't think I even got around to asking question two. That was all just based on question one. And I had 20 of them written down. See what I was saying before we separate recording, always better to run out of time, than run out of questions.

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Honestly, to me, I feel like you really wrapped it up in a nice bow there. So I'm just going to shift to another thing that I wanted to ask about. Cause I hadn't heard, um, tiers described before. So you studied tier one as tier two ads. Is that just like effectiveness quality, like a tier one ad is really like an ad that's nailing it or the tier two ad is like, meh could use some work.

Tier three is like not good at all. 

Jason Gan: [00:42:42] Yeah. Okay. Do you want it? I usually do the first ad. The evergreen ad does. 

Joseph: [00:42:46] Oh, I see. Okay. So it's a sequence. Okay, great. 

Jason Gan: [00:42:49] So the tier one, tier two, usually I would go tier one, tier two, but they will be tier three. If you are, you know, running some, like, for example, you know, to me, I usually those people who bought from you before then you'll have a different set of advertising that goes to increase their lifetime value kind of thing.

So, yeah. And usually it's about tier one tier two kind of thing. Yeah. 

Joseph: [00:43:08] Okay. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I was just, uh, uh, confined on that one because it was a question, but within, it was a quality thing or a sequential thing. Got it. Okay. We've, uh, we've covered quite a, quite a lot of value here. And I, and I hope our, uh, my audience who are living vicariously through me, I have a huge smile on their face right now, because I was just like, really, actually, honestly, I was blown away by a lot of your, your insights and just seeing.

You know, your take on what I would still argue is a fundamental methodology, but a different way to approach it that, um, uses time to, to our advantage. But you're also describing too that a lot of these ads, they, they jam pack all of the copy and then all of the steps of the process all into one ad. And I do want to take the position of I've been trained.

Um, you know, my, my mentor, he does use this particular style. Lots of people do, and it is proven effective. So from your analysis, What would you say is the reason why it is as effective as it is and how you think, even though there there's there's issues with it, how it still manages to get the job done?

Jason Gan: [00:44:12] You mean, for my two step framework? 

Joseph: [00:44:14] Oh, no. I mean, I mean more in like the, um, the straightforward dropshipping style, a 30 second ad and they, they are effective. And so I'm wondering from your analysis, what do you think that they're doing right? 

Jason Gan: [00:44:24] Well, um, I think actually the, the, the reason varies, you know, when an ad that is doing well, that could be because of, um, you know, there are many factors to look into if you look at a metric side of it.

So, uh, if you ask me, how do I actually judge whether the campaign is, or so-called particular ad is doing well, because you see, I say, you know, from the very beginning we talked about the three main pillars, right? It has to be able to send the right message to the right people, to get them to take the right action.

So I always say that, you know, by, for example, granted, now we know we want to go for conversion, for example. So that action is pretty much done. And audience is pretty much kind of like, you know, different school of thought, you go for it. Now, what is lab is the creative, which is we have no control. So that's in a way we have no control.

So let's say, you know, when we have a campaign that is running well, and if we want to investigate if it is performing well, there are a few key metrics that we'll look at. First thing first is definitely the CPM. So, um, you know, there was, I wouldn't be able to say that there is a benchmark CPM for all industry, different countries.

We have different CPM kind of thing. But when you have been running ads for your business for awhile, you sort of have a benchmarking CPM. So you, the CPM is kind of like similar. That is fine. On the second thing that we will look into, whether the creative is effective or not is to look at the CTR. Now, CDR, there are two sets, all right.

The first CTR is really the CTO, meaning that, you know, when it comes to Facebook ad, there are so many things to click on playing the video, clicking like button, you know, sharing it to friends and you know, so that is CTRL. And in my opinion, if your CTR is be low too, that is really an early indicator that sucks because people are not engaging at all.

So our benchmark is for the CTO is to now the outer CTR is CTR link, click. You know, people who click on the call to action button. Now, when you, when you have, let's say for some events, okay, cool. You have to Seattle, you know, meaning that, okay. Somehow you are doing averagely. Okay. Now, on the other side, you have CTR link, click 0.5%.

That is an indicator that, you know, it's not doing well because our benchmark for CTR link click is 1%. So if you have below, that could be because your ad is engaging in a way, but your call to action in the ad creative, or either whatever itself is not strong enough to guide the audience, to take the action that you want.

So what we usually do here is we will tweak the copy a little bit, or, you know, because we don't want to treat the creative as in like the video itself, because that will, re-trigger the learning significantly. But when you're actually picking a line of the call to action, meaning that, just edit, say that, you know, just emphasize it a little bit stronger.

The first two lines, it might do the job. So these are the few things. So, um, you know, it, CTO is it's, uh, it's the part that. Whether the creative is doing okay. So that's the first part. Of course, we want to look at the result rate as well. I've seen like, you know, how clicking is one thing that ROAS is another thing, right?

So, so these are the few things to look into. Now, when it comes to the ad set party, if you're trying to dissect whether campaign is doing or the audiences doing fine, then there will be extra things to look into. Of course we want to, let's say for my tier one campaign, which is the ad one that is going out to fresh audiences, frequency has to be below two because you don't want to wear audience out because we already have all these qualifiers by watching the video, you go out by clicking the website, you go out.

So that will significantly make this a evergreen campaign. So the frequency should be below two. So if it hits above two, that you need to work on your qualifying meeting, the exclusion part of it. All right. So when it comes to tier two pod, then you know, we will always go for at least two to three. So that's a good one.

If you break two to three, then you need to reduce a budget a little bit for your retirement. So there should be a balance when it comes to the whole combination, but I will say, um, that's how I will look at the effectiveness of a campaign from several aspects in terms of the metrics part of it. 

Joseph: [00:48:04] Yeah. Th th th that's a good takeaway.

And when I, when I said analysis, I'm, you know, I was definitely. Uh, pleased at your actual analysis of it. So that was exactly the answer that I was looking for. So we do have, uh, we do have, have you for a little bit more time and I kind of want to like, you know, uh, breathe a little bit because I do want to hear a little bit more about, you know, like your, your journey to some podcasts, to do the journey stuff at the beginning, but I'm like, in this case, let's make sure we get the value for us, but I do want to hear more about like, you know, how did you, um, you know, what were you up to prior to e-commerce and, you know, how did you, uh, end up into this industry?

Jason Gan: [00:48:39] Yeah, I mean, um, I, I graduated as economics graduate. I mean, I do international economics, so I think that helps in terms of, uh, uh, analysis part. Um, and I, but when I first started my career, as in my first job was really, I was thrown by my boss to start a company. I see, like, he's she started the company.

She just let me run. And I was like, what the heck, me being a fresh one, but, uh, okay. We sort of went through a little bit of an interesting things and even eventually it just didn't happen. Um, but you know, I learned tremendous things from this one because, uh, I was given very minimal budgets. So I learned all this.

I self-taught all these, like, I'm, uh, I'm actually a graphic designer. I can do this graphic design thing. I'm a website builder. I can build websites on my own from scratch. And, um, you know, I can do eventually I can do a number of things like advertising, you know, video editing and all this kind of thing.

And, and that sort of shaped me into digital because I, because of that, I truly believe in digital because I was given no budget. I couldn't have done any convention advertising. Right. So that's where my entry into digital and, and eventually my second job was, um, I was, I was tasked to run the marketing side of a property portal, which was then acquired by one of the bigger ones in the, in the region.

So that is where I got really, you know, different kinds of learning. And when it comes to running a portal kind of thing, and, you know, after two companies working for two years, plus, you know, I started my agency. So when I started my agency, I was kind of like, I was, I was, I think I was crazy back then, you know, we only like less than two years experience.

I started my own agency, but I think that was the most interesting time, because you can imagine 2010, you talk about Facebook advertising to all these people in my country. They will be like, what the hell are you talking about? So, um, eventually I think it's the  that actually went through, but of course, halfway through, I got distracted a little bit.

I went on to, you know, actually founded a few startups, which I raised several rounds and here and there, and I burned them down to the ground, you know, in a couple of years time. So we lost, I think, uh, hundreds of thousands, not to the million dot yet, but, uh, eventually these are all key learnings that shaped me and.

Yeah. And, and that, you know, all these are all in digital, so that's kind of like, you know, make me do where we are. And eventually, um, the agency part is the one that I see afloat, but up to now, I'm no longer doing agency work. I actually shrink it down and we are no longer taking new client in a moment.

I want to focus on the training and coaching part because in my opinion, this is the better way for me to help more people because, um, we're running an agency, we have the limitation, we can only take that many clients first thing first. Uh, and it's very difficult to scale. So that's where I am, you know, after, uh, 10, 11 years, you know, so that's, that's what I truly believe in, in, in helping more people with what I am.

Joseph: [00:51:30] I, I respect that, you know, uh, it's interesting because I've talked to other people about the, the, the, the challenge of scaling. Um, in, in my view, I always looked at that scaling more. Not so much like how many individuals, but how much impact each individual has in whatever it is that they're doing.

Because if that individual is now going to pay, you know, a great larger amount of money, then although I'm not immediately helping hundreds of people, what I am doing is I'm helping one person who is now, uh, effecting other people. So that's always been my, my, my quirkier take on scale. Um, you know, if I'm max working on 10 clients that I would want to turn out the lowest paying ones and, and end up with the, the higher paying ones, a case in point I was a freelancer and I was doing audio editing prior to this.

And so this was a job that I had. I applied for as a freelancer. And let me tell you, I turned out a lot of people have to get hired here, so I'll just put it that outfit and put it up at a, put a pin in that. So those are the two things that stuck out. One of them. It did stick out to me when I was, uh, uh, looking into, cause I know one of your training is about, is about real estate.

And then you had mentioned that part of this was like a, uh, a property portal. So you've had like a little bit of a I've experienced in the real estate sector. 

Jason Gan: [00:52:41] Um, I do actually, you know, the other day I was just being asked by one of them, you know, potential coachee that wants to come into my coaching program.

You know, she asks me, okay, you say real estate, but what have you done? I said in the past 10 years, I think I have generated somewhere 600,000 leads for all my clients combined. So if that's not something worth mentioning, then I don't know what it is. Basically, I work with all of the major, most of the major property developers in my country.

And on top of that, I will, with a lot of real estate agencies, I learned a great deal from both sides because the different areas. Property company as developers, they will have different needs and the way they look at their approach, lead generation and campaign marketing, Facebook ads is different. And when it comes to the agency side and different.

So yeah, I mean, that really boils down to mine very much origin because I was in a property portal or as my second job, because that I, I really like this industry because first thing first, um, it's a very interesting industry where. You know, there are a lot of different variables when it comes to the marketing mix.

Like, for example, let me give you an example. I coach one, one of the largest property portal. I mean, not probably probably developed by my country. So, you know, they have projects all over the region. In fact, when you're using the same app, that even it doesn't apply to all of them, the regions in a very similar way, like for example, we have this Northern region.

If you use messages, it works really well for that. But when you use messages in the Southern region, it just cracks. So I think eventually there are so many variables that you can do is actually kind of similar to e-commerce, but that property part really is something that I'm more interested in. Um, but of course I still involved in a lot of e-commerce projects.

I, I train in the past just to, in the past two years alone, I trained close to 2000 close to 3000 e-commerce sellers, regardless drop shipping or e-commerce marketplace sellers, or, you know, ecommerce sellers. . We should. Yeah, we have quite a lot of them. 

Joseph: [00:54:45] And one thing I think is particularly noteworthy about, um, real estate is compared to many other industries.

There is a great deal of increasing in value because, you know, in order for our economy to function, it's always about progress and it's about, uh, enriching, more people lifting more people out of, um, uh, out of lower classes, into higher classes. And so property, you know, in theory, I, and oftentimes in practice, it continues to, uh, raise in value so long as you know, the world around that doesn't doesn't fall apart.

Yeah. So I think that's one major difference between that and with, uh, with e-commerce, um, era just generally with, with products, not just e-commerce, it's just commerce in general is that a lot of that consumption is really just sustaining one's quality of life. Whereas real estate is about the ability for somebody to make an investment.

Live within that investment. And then, um, as, you know, as the time comes to move on to a higher investment, they can then make more money there. So it is like, uh, an upward, rising accumulated of industry. And I don't think there's any other industry. I really can't think of any other industry that's like that.

I mean, he, cars deteriorate, I guess. Right. So, I mean, okay. I mean, there was, there is investment, there is banking, but to me that's not quite the same thing as like an industry, cause it's not, there's not a transaction. 

Jason Gan: [00:55:59] Yeah. So, so the customer journey is also very much different compared to different industry.

So I think that's a very unique industry that I, I think I really liked that the way it's done and kind of like the learning out of it 10 years, and I'm still learning because the people really changed. That's a very interesting industry that I've always. 

Joseph: [00:56:17] Okay. So before I let you go, there is a, one of the thing that I wouldn't mind asking, but if you don't want to reopen an old wound, I'll understand.

But cause you had talked about, you had, um, you, you, you tried to get into some startups and they didn't go so well. Um, I wouldn't mind hearing about maybe one of women's, uh, sticks out too, but just so that we can get something positive out of this, if you want to tell us, like, what are some of the, some of the key lessons that stuck out to you from the experience?

I'd love to hear that. 

Jason Gan: [00:56:43] So one of the startup that I raised about half a million in my country, uh, my, I mean, bringing it, not dollar, that's probably kind of like half a, million's kind of a hundred thousand in dollars. So w w what would you say the courtesy was ringing ringing is 500. Yeah, well, 400 ish thousand.

So turn it out. Do you know yours dollar is about a hundred thousand. So, um, that was a setup that I actually built. It's like a Facebook commerce kind of thing. So I think it's very similar to word, whatever we are talking about here. So, because at the point of time, Facebook apps was really the, in thing.

It was talking about 2012, 2013 kind of thing. Yeah. So that point of time, Facebook Dexstar version was still the in thing. And I built a lot of so-called Facebook apps, you know, kind of like you build a micro-site within Facebook environment. And then a lot of people uses that to really like run contests and all this new thing back then, you know, there was the time.

So I was building a lot for a lot of my clients and because I was also running an agency, so we make a lot of money. I was thinking that, Hey, what if we built a store in it? That could be something that people will want. And we thought, we thought, right. So we build it, we build a prototype, we raised some money and we were actually kind of like, okay, we were struggling to make progress, but it was cool.

But eventually, um, what happened was Facebook changed direction. If you remember, they stay declared that they are becoming mobile. So they ditched the environment. I mean, the desktop part of the thing for a while, they really focus on mobile environment for really long time and they never cared to carry along the so-called Facebook apps kind of thing.

We did, you know, as another Microsoft, within Facebook environment to the mobile side of it. So overnight, the whole set of idea turns into, you know, it just didn't work. So, um, over the year we tried to pivot and all that, we still don't run into something that is more viable. So at the end of the day, we just sold the company.

So a few key lessons I learned, okay, I spend on marketing too soon. I didn't. And I spent on marketing too soon. And second thing is I actually expand my team too fast so that these are the key mistakes that I made. And second thing is, I mean, third thing would be, I was too naive in terms of my so-called fundraising strategy.

I was way too naive in that. So, uh, in fact that causes me two years of my time to really kind of like work things out with mind, master back then. I said, like the resolve, the whole thing. So that's the thing. So ever since then, I, you know, I don't raise fun anymore, you know, so everything I do since then is really on par, you know, as really like bootstrapping method.

If I don't make money on day one, I don't make it. I don't do it. That's the thing. 

Joseph: [00:59:19] Yeah. Like I come from like the, you know, the more liberal and arts side and I've seen much smallest scale, but a lot of, um, uh, our projects, a lot of people are using it to, for their books and, and, and I've, and I have my own creative stuff too.

So I have other people have asked me if I want to set it up. And I, and I've, I've seen some, some, some things happen like one guy, he, he did it. Book, uh, it was a budget, a collection of all the comments that had done online. And then he had a stack of about, I don't know, 400 to 600 of these. And he just had like a total mental breakdown and he set fire to all 600 of them.

And, uh, and, and that is crowded and get anything. So, you know, it, I, I would never want to discount that particular model out completely because I have also seen some successes too. Um, but yeah, it's, it's a different thing too. Uh, to reverse the transaction in that way. So it is a whole other beast entirely.

It probably worthy of its own other show, which I'm sure there already is a number of shows like that already. So with that, uh, Jason has been fantastic. I got to tell you, it's great to know that with each, um, interview, uh, even though I'm continuing to learn that there's always something new and there's always something to discover.

And today is certainly a sound example of that. I really did not know about a lot of what you talked about today. So, uh, for that I, I, uh, me and my brain, we want to thank you very much. And if you have any last piece of advice or wisdom or your favorite quote, a proverb, anything like that, you'd like to share.

You're welcome to, and then let the audience know how they can, uh, get involved with your content and get involved with you.

Jason Gan: [01:00:55] I mean, there are two angles to look at this thing. If you're looking at, from, uh, you know, uh, from business builder point of view, uh, my only advice is only to keep building, because to be frank, there's so many things that you can build, you know, there are so many values that you can create for the world.

So, well, don't set up with whatever you have done right now, keep building and see whether you can actually create by for example, I've, I've, I've been teaching and I was now what I'm actually at this point of time, what I'm doing here is I'm bringing more, uh, so-called potential good trainers into my universe.

I think I can only teach Facebook advertising, but I can't teach. Let's say Google advertising. I can't teach design. I can teach all these things, but you know, if I don't introduce these cool people with so much talent to my community, these people wouldn't get these covered in the sec. And in turn my audience won't get to learn.

So keep building is one thing. So that's from my business build upon. And they've actually looking at the Facebook advertising point of view. I would say, you know, a lot of times don't, this is really my advice. Don't kill a campaign too soon. That to be frank, just dig deeper, to see what's really going on.

Try to keep a campaign running for longterm is always beneficial. Just like what Joseph was saying. Don't kill a kid, a product too soon because you know, it's not the fault of the product. It's definitely not there. Let's find out what's wrong and then be improvised from there. That could be a better way to do this.

So, um, I mean, talking about that, if you guys want to learn more, you can actually go and find me out. I mean, look me out on YouTube, my, my YouTube. Uh, and then if you want to learn with me for, you know, if there's anything you want to learn with me that you can actually look for my, my company website, which is, I think everything started from my YouTube channel.

Just go to my YouTube channel, um, then everything actually try to look at that. And if there's anything like that, definitely you can, we can, we can start getting in touch from there. 

Joseph: [01:02:39] Excellent. And with that, uh, once more to our  audience. Thank you as always for your participation. Uh, it means a lot to me to be able to get this information and share it with all of you.

So with that take care and we will check in soon.

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