Jeffrey Ho - Consumer Psychology And Skill Transitioning Both In And Out Of Ecommerce
- 60minutes Listening Time
- by Debutify Admin
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Jeffrey has been in the E-commerce and Dropshipping space for 2 years. Since 2020, he has moved on to pursue other career opportunities in the digital industry to learn more about the technical and project management aspects of E-commerce and other digital platforms and solutions. Jeffrey has been featured in other podcasts and interviews such as Oberlo, and plans to get back into the realm of E-commerce in the near future. To find out more about Jeffrey, you can watch his videos via YouTube or follow him on Instagram.
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Jeffrey Ho: [00:00:00] You know there's a fine balance between, you know, making good money and having that opportunity to learn. You know, you can be earning a lot of money and having sales and things like that. But if you're, if your knowledge is just capped, um, you're not really growing as a person, you might be stuck with the same, you know, routine skills, which might not be applying in the right areas. Being in an environment where you can actually learn but also at the same time, you can also earn a bit of money in, you know, those skills later on will be valuable companies or the people that hire you yourself might see as valuable that's where you can kind of read those benefits later on.
Joseph: [00:00:37] You're listening to Ecomonics, a Debutify podcast. Your resource for one of the kind insights into the world of e-commerce and business in the modern age. This is Joseph. I'll be presenting a wealth of industry knowledge from interviews, with successful business people and our own state-of-the-art research. Your time is valuable so let's go.
As I say numerous times in our program, as I continue to learn about the industry, it opens up new avenues of study. My guest today, Jeffrey Ho, wanted to bring one such revelation to the table about what to do, if slash when, the time comes to make a change. Whether that's heading into e-commerce common theme on the show, or heading out of it into another area, which as our guests puts it has less to do with success and more to do with the pursuit of growth.
Jeffrey Ho, it is good to have you here on Ecomonics. How are you doing today? Well, how are you doing tonight?
Jeffrey Ho: [00:01:34] I'm doing well. Thanks for having me, uh, Joseph. Uh, it's been a while since I've actually done something like a podcast before, but I'm happy to be here. I'm happy to provide value, I guess.
Joseph: [00:01:46] How long has it been?
Jeffrey Ho: [00:01:47] It's been about a year or so since I did the podcast and since about 10 months now, since I did a YouTube video, so it really has been almost a year or so.
Joseph: [00:01:56] W well, here's hoping, uh, one thing we can do today is to start to get the, uh, the fire burning again, get the gears spinning. So, uh, let's, let's, let's have some fun and get some inspiration going. Opening question, uh, across, you know, I actually see, I, the question is always like who you are and what you do, but I, I've been like, struggling with this for a while because like, well, I'd say the person's name, like right away. So if it was like, well, yeah, okay. I guess I'll repeat it for the, everybody who forgot my name between that point. And there was anyway, so, uh, Jeffery Ho, uh, let us know what you're up to and what you do these days.
Jeffrey Ho: [00:02:27] So, as everyone knows, I used to run a YouTube channel. I made about 80 videos now, but since then, it's been about 10 months, uh, busy with better, you know, sort of aspirations in life. Um, I've been doing my, working on my masters. I'm doing a master's of business, business administration now, as well as that, just working now at an agency actually, um, that's specializing in commerce and digital, um, kind of solutions. We want to talk kind of talk about that later on. You know, how about how, you know, e-commerce can really open new opportunities and new worlds to like, you know, um, different career opportunities and it's not the right fit for you, you know, entrepreneurship. But, um, yeah, I've been just focusing a lot on, you know, just, um, this career aspect as well as my masters, but, um, I'm hoping to really get back into, you know, the world e-commerce without time and, you know, cause it's something I'm really passionate about it. Yeah. That's briefly what I've been up to in the past, I guess.
Joseph: [00:03:21] And it's a fascinating subject, um, which, uh, I'm, I'm, I'm looking forward to getting into, because a lot of the people that I talk to they're usually, well, uh, immeshed in, e-commerce like in, in the moment that I talk to them, they're in the midst of their career.
Uh, they've made some of their first strides and they're figuring out, uh, where they want to branch out and what they want to do. And so one thing that I often get to talk about is where are they going to go? Because there's some people they just stay dropshippers for, for, for good. But, uh, it seems to be the, the rarity people will, uh, start their own agencies or they'll become, uh, primarily though content creators.
And I guess what happened to you is, so you, you, you, you shifted gears, uh, back into what I would say as a more structured or a systemic, um, uh, work system, where work structure, where like you're not, you're working with an agency. So, uh, so like, um, so my first question too is by the way, this would be a good time too, by the way so in the midst of this question, yeah. You can tell us your story of like, how you got into e-commerce because I think that that's an important pillar to, uh, answer this question is, so you're going from structure to the freedom of e-commerce, which is a more, uh, lose more like up to you. And then you go back into structure.
So what was the motivation to go from, uh, to go into e-commerce and the motivation to step away from it?
Jeffrey Ho: [00:04:38] E-commerce just kind of started out as just like a, it wasn't really a topic of interest at first. I kind of just was browsing through social media and actually saw an article from a girl. Um, I think I also mentioned that in one of the podcasts, uh, from Oberlo, the interview, um, yeah, basically I was just browsing through social media.
I saw an article decided to read up on drop shipping, and that's how I found drop shipping and decided to kind of pursue it because, you know, it seemed kind of interesting and intriguing that you didn't really have to have any inventory to run a business. So that's where I got started. And, um, I was back then, I was working at like, um, a corporate job.
I was working in banking and, um, it wasn't something that was really, I guess, the top of my mind for e-commerce. I just wanted to try it, um, and see where they went. You know, I ended up in my spare time and, um, it was cool, cool venture to go into, but yeah, after like about a year or so, um, I've been working on e-commerce.
I kind of wanted to go back to something more routine because I figured that, um, drop shipping itself is not a bad business model to start off, but, um, it really limits you in terms of your ability to learn more skills. There's a lot of skills to be learned in drop shipping, but there comes a point where you really have to venture out to learn more about e-commerce as a whole, because, um, if you work, um, I guess with yourself full time, um, as an e-commerce owner or drop shipping brand owner, um, you really can't expose yourself to big systems and, uh, uh, you know, more, I guess, more established people or, um, kind of resources. So that's kind of where I decided to kind of want to go back to, you know, bigger agencies to kind of expose myself to more projects, um, related to e-commerce and, you know, kind of the overall big picture of it, as opposed to really just stick the drop shipping and stick to a very similar, um, you know, kind of ad strategies.
I think that, that, so obviously this is just a personal preference, but, um, it's just what I've been kind of wanting to do and kind of what I, um, I guess, wants to know more about. Um, I guess that was why I kind of stopped drop shipping, but not really kind of let go of the commerce as a whole. Um, so yeah, that was, I guess, basically the story behind this.
Joseph: [00:07:02] And, uh, I, I appreciate characterizing it as a, as your opinion. And I feel it's important on this show that whenever we get to hear a, I say, I say conflicting because I can't think of a better word for it, but you know, a contrasting there, it is a contrasting opinion on it. I want to run towards it because I want to make sure that our audience, um, if they're thinking of that on their own, it's better to hear somebody talk about it anyways.
So if I could take a second to, I think I understand what the, uh, what the mindset is, but I'm not the one with the psychology degree. So, you know, you can, you can, you can tell me how close or how far off I am. But what I think happened is in, in running, say an e-commerce or a brand store, it is very freeing and the store can scale and do quite well. But I can see there being limitations in the brand's ability to penetrate a more mainstream market, uh, or a more mainstream industry. It's I think it's difficult for brands in the e-commerce space to reach the level of say reverence or, uh, appreciation that say like, I don't know Coca-Cola has, or, or trident gum has, and by doing that, it limits people from being able to understand what it takes to be a, a, a, um, a mainstream or be a, popularizer be a home when, when something is so popular that it's inside the home. Uh, now I completely blanking on it. I can't remember what it's called. Anyways, when something is so popular that everybody understands it.
Jeffrey Ho: [00:08:31] Right.
Joseph: [00:08:32] As you've seen anybody pull it off as soon as possible. What would you say in your experience has been the closest? I say, like an econ, someone in the e-commerce industry has re as penetrated them more, that mainstream appeal.
Jeffrey Ho: [00:08:43] I think there are a couple of e-commerce brands that have done quite well. Um, and they all started off with drop shipping, but, um, I think the amount of people who kind of broke out of drop shipping and actually scaled. Um, not just in terms of revenue figures, but in terms of, uh, I guess brand reputation and brand equity. Um, there isn't really all that many, in my opinion. Um, because it really isn't that easy to compete with people who are, like you said, already established with brands, like Coca-Cola, you know, in food and beverage, or like if you're doing a retail and something like Nike or like Adidas and things like that.
So, um, very, very few, but, um, one, you know, the first thing that comes to my mind though, like a brand that comes to my mind that does it really well, and they're still doing really well is, uh, Gym Shark. I'm not sure if you've heard of it. Yeah.
Joseph: [00:09:33] As a matter of fact. Yeah.
Jeffrey Ho: [00:09:34] Yeah. They actually started off with drop shipping, um, from what I can recall and from my knowledge, and actually branched out to, um, you know, being an actual e-commerce brand and endorsing a lot of athletes, but, um, the possibility of actually becoming the next gym shark is almost negligible because people usually lack the resources to do so. And they're competing with a lot of bigger brands and they lack the, you know, I guess, brand positioning, um, you know, but, um, that's not to say it's not possible, but it's definitely going to be harder nowadays.
Yeah. That's why, that's why I think, I guess in terms of this topic.
Joseph: [00:10:13] Yeah. And also, I remember now the word I was looking for was household name. That was it. So something that became a household name and gym shark. Yeah. Gym shark definitely it reached that point. It's kind of ironic because now when I hear gym shark.
I don't think of it as an e-commerce brand. I just think of it as a brand. And so in a way there is in the, in, in, in the way that there is a stigma attached to dropshipping, there can be a stigma attached to, uh, an e-commerce brand and, and, and some of the issue is a foundational. Um, because as dropshippers, we don't get to develop the product ourselves. Some people can. Um, I, I spoke to someone not too long ago who developed a product from scratch and now it's in Walmart. And so that, that is another struggle too, is not having access to all of the foundations, not building something completely from scratch. Um, so yeah, so there's definitely a lot, a lot of struggles there.
So we're going to get into the, the, the, the big enchilada, which I promised myself I wouldn't say that, but, oh, well I tried, which was you know, the, the psychology of like a skill of transference. And I'll tell you my own story as well, but before we do that, I do want to hear a little bit more about your degree in psychology.
Jeffrey Ho: [00:11:20] Sure.
Joseph: [00:11:20] Okay. And part of it is, oh, so you get you a degree in psychology with a, a minors in, uh, any e-commerce business. And then you end up as a banking job. I I'm interested to know exactly how it was. It just like he worked as a teller, he just like an entry level and then they liked you and they, and they promoted you.
Jeffrey Ho: [00:11:36] Yeah. So for the banking job, um, it was a frontline role. I think it was just the entry level role I worked there for about a year or two. So it was mostly a, um, you know, a front facing client facing role. Yeah. At the same time, I was also working on the e-commerce, um, for university, I was taking psychology, as you mentioned, but I was minoring in commerce.
Um, I wasn't really like studying e-commerce in particular, but to business in general, I guess. And, um, Yeah. I just thought it was a cool opportunity to, you know, tap into something that's pretty, uh, I guess, trending at that time, you know, e-commerce and drop shipping and. I guess that's how I got into it.
Joseph: [00:12:21] And with the psychology degree, the thing that I was thinking about when I was getting set up to do this conversation is that I think people are drawn to degrees that reflect some of you know, who they are and how they understand it. So rather than just try to build a skill set from scratch based off nothing, it's something within you.
It's maybe like an analytical brain that you've had all along. And so the idea of pursuing that in school is a way to take a lot of your organic skills and being able to craft them and be able to apply a more analytical approach to it. So what drove you to getting the psychology degree and follow up?
How has it changed? Like the way you interact with people? Like, do you get to like, do like a Sherlock Holmes thing where you're like, you're doing calculations and as you're talking to other people's and kind of like understanding them.
Jeffrey Ho: [00:13:06] A lot of people tend to have like this misconception, where did you study psychology you, you seem to have this special skill to read people's minds, but you know, that usually isn't the case, but, um, you know, when you, when you study psychology. Yeah. I mean, we, we, we all want to have that skill, you know, obviously, you know, to read people's minds that were pretty cool. But, um, yeah, I guess when you do, when you study psychology, you really understand you, you study basically the concepts of, um, you know, human behavior and we use those kind of theories and concepts to predict, um, the different types of behaviors, uh, different types of, you know, um, I guess, interaction, social interactions, and, um, you know, but at the end of the day, it's like a prediction.
Um, can't really say for sure, because there's a lot of other factors, external factors that you can really, um, dismiss and in the real world. So, um, I guess, uh, in terms of knowledge, you kind of gained that kind of insights as a psychology major, but you can't really say that that's behavior exactly. Um, is as caused by this specific, you know, um, thing or like events or something like that. So, yeah, I guess that's where psychology comes into play.
Joseph: [00:14:21] And have you, uh, uh, have you used it as a way to understand yourself on a, on a deeper level? Was there anything that, like it clicked when you were given some more analytical tools to even like notice what your own behavior was?
Jeffrey Ho: [00:14:34] Um, uh, psychology, to be honest, it would be, um, it's more, not really because in the world of e-commerce I think a lot of the behavior is you're able to track it digitally through data analytics.
Right. It's not so much about social interactions, but rather the different kinds of behaviors that you see on your website, that your users are, um, you know, showing or displaying on, for example, you know, you have different types of KPI that shows like, you know, um, you know, different bounce rate or like a click-through rate, things like that, that really isn't explained through, um, human psychology, but rather just, um, you know, their, their, their behavior that's online.
So obviously, you know, psychology can help in, um, you know, I guess how they interact the person, but maybe not so much when they're browsing something to buy that. I think they're innovative. It's something that's more useful and more important. And, um, you know, that's, I guess that's why a lot of people nowadays they are, they need people who are, um, very, I guess, Uh, proficient in data analytics and they understand how to use it and all that.
Joseph: [00:15:42] Yeah. I, I understand that, uh, completely. It takes a certain mind to, uh, see the, uh, the behaviors of so many people. I mean, the more, the more metrics you see, the more people are involved in each individual and know they get up, they breakfast, I assume. They, they have their own, their own wants and needs.
And so to even to handle all of that is, uh, is certainly a unique and, uh, appreciate skill set.
So the main topic that we wanted to do today, and by the way, I appreciate that it was what you suggested that we talk about. So it doesn't mean a lot when somebody knows what they want to bring to the table. So I just want to say thank you for that. Uh, it's, it's, it's a concept of transferable skills and you'll notice some of what we've talked about so far.
It you'll, you'll see how it will come into play as we, as we talk about this. So can I get you to set this up for us? The, uh, the concept of the transferable skills and what's the important, the, what's the starting point for our audience to understand what we're going to do here?
Jeffrey Ho: [00:16:49] Yeah, so transferable skills, but we mentioned prior to the interview was the kind of skills that you can take away from, um, venturing into e-commerce, you know, things like, you know, um, understanding data analytics, um, you know, knowing how to write good copy, um, you know, making cool creatives that tracks the audience, uh, making a very beautiful landing page, you know, things like that.
These are transferable skills, um, after you've been inside e-commerce and drop shipping. Um, the other side to it is skills that you can, you've acquired that you can bring insights, uh, as you venture inside in parking to be commerce. So, um, as you mentioned before, you know, a lot of people have different backgrounds.
I know you are from a performing, um, you know, kind of that background, um, you know, these different types of skills that you can kind of garner, um, before e-commerce sense. If you're looking to kind of transfer into e-commerce, you can take those, um, into, uh, you know, kind of into consideration and make them an advantage for you.
So I guess for example is like, uh, the most obvious example is if you're someone who's into information technology, like someone who's into, you know, um, something more quantitative, you really have an edge in terms of, um, get it going into e-commerce because you are looking to data everyday. You're trying to understand what those mean.
Um, you're trying to understand the implications of it and when you can do that data, and I think for those people who are, who have an it background, they're more kind of data-driven and they're more, um, I guess, objective, when it comes to decision-making and you don't see, uh, you know, black or white. And so if you have these skills, um, before entering into e-commerce, you really have an edge over other people because you know what to look for and you know how to, um, take those kind of data into advantage. And obviously the same goes for, you know, other type of careers or like other types of skill sets as well, such as communication. You know, if you have customer service skills, you're, you can be really good at customer inquiries, um, answering different questions, um, actually making really relevant and very accurate.
Uh FAQ's in your, in your business page, you know, things like that. So when I, when I really was, when I say transferable skills, I really mean what kind of skill sets can you bring to the table that will give you a competitive edge when you start the e-commerce business. That's really what I mean.
Joseph: [00:19:17] This reminds me of a discussion that I was having in college. So just so the audience knows this, that I took a, I took a performance program and, and I get actually kind of, uh, anxious to, to say what it was, because it changes people's perception of me, but the program was based on a comedy. So there were classes on how to write sketches, um, production, a history of comedy, and some other courses, too, that we had to take as electives like English, for instance, uh, and naturally a lot of the people in the program were shit disturbers.
And so the elective for the electives, not very many professors were willing to, to, to teach the students because a lot of them didn't make very good students. And the concern was as follows is the more concentrated in the industry that we get, the harder it is to excel because you have a lot of competition.
There's a lot of people who were vying for the good stage time. And, you know, even some of the most talented performers who can do excellent on stage, they just couldn't get anywhere and they, and they can be added for for years. And so a lot of them would, they would want to move to the states where there's maybe there's more opportunity, but even then it's hyper-competitive.
And what he said was, so when you're in this bubble, it's great for developing your skills. But the problem is there's a lot of other competition there. So the further you get outside of the bubble, your skill is actually heightened in their importance because it's relative and context. Imagine going to a small town where nobody even does like an open mic night and hosting the show there suddenly everything that the pros and learns would be a lot more important because there's no one else around to do anything.
Uh, the downside of course, is that, uh, it might give a person an inflated sense of their own skillset, where like a bunch of people will worship them as a God. But then they go to town where there's actually a more cultured understanding of the craft. And then the person actually finds out that they're mediocre at best.
And that's one of the things that I think is going on here, that when people can develop skills in a hyper concentrated environment, they can actually step out into an area that's far more appreciative or has much greater use of those needs. So when I stepped into, into e-commerce coming from a performance background, you don't get as many performers as you do.
People who, you know, and know how to read data sheets and, and understand the marketing. So in that sense, I feel that the job that I'm able to do here is largely based off of the skill set that is more in demand here than it would be in other places.
Jeffrey Ho: [00:21:49] Yeah. I kind of agree. Um, yeah, once, I guess once nobody has that skill that you have, you tend to be more valuable as a, I guess when you're looking for a job or like when you're actually trying to pitch someone or, you know, for your own good, you tend to have this kind of competitive edge, right?
Like suddenly you're like this odd one out, like in a good way. And you, you bring a lot more to the table than everyone else. So it's definitely a good thing to have, I think.
Joseph: [00:22:14] Yeah. And so the other thing that we wanted to talk about too, um, that's important to this is for the audience, let's say that they, uh, they find that e-commerce, isn't really working for them.
So there's a few things to unfold here. And one of them is going to be, you know, what skills, what skills would we say are the most beneficial long-term so that even if they do exit e-commerce what they learned within this environment can be useful to them in as the best chance of being useful to them outside of that?
Jeffrey Ho: [00:22:42] I think when it comes to running your own e-commerce business, there's a lot of, kind of valuable skills that you can take away from it. Um, I think I just mentioned a couple of before. Um, one of which includes, you know, copywriting, things like that, you know, you really know how to communicate to your audience, um, you know, and driving them to kind of, uh, um, perform a particular action.
So in terms of e-commerce you can write copy that sells to people. So if you have a product to sell and you can write in a way that will drive them to make a purchase, writing things that sell is, is a very valuable skill nowadays. And a lot of companies also want this. So, um, that's another skill you can kind of bring to the table in the corporate world with, you know, entrepreneurship is not for you.
Second one is I guess, data analytics. We, we mentioned before, um, having the ability to actually read into, uh, what customers are doing on your website. So, um, how, how, how much time are they spending on the website now? You know, uh, what can you do? What does that mean? I guess what's the click-through rate for your ads now?
You know, you know, the higher click through rates, um, the more, um, attractive your ad is, or the lower. Now, you know, how, when you can work on, you know, things like these data analytics, it helps you understand I'm also really useful and corporate, you know, because, uh, everyone nowadays they're, they're, they're shifting to digital, they're shifting to online.
Um, a lot of people need to read into data to improve, to, um, to change, you know, understanding what the bottleneck is and your business, you know, all of them evolves around intercutting data. So that's very useful. I guess another one is, um, you know, customer service, like I mentioned before, being able to, um, satisfy your customers, um, knowing, uh, how to communicate with them, how to, um, S you know, I guess not escalate, but like, make things better.
If there is, if, you know, if there are issues, there are angry customers, you know how to communicate with them. Having that tolerance and patience to do so, you know, these soft skills, I guess, video editing, that's also useful, you know, learning Photoshop, um, learning how to edit the videos, you know, your ads, uh, all these skills they're really useful and you might actually use them in the future of all of them, but at least, you know, a finger to about it.
And you know, that particular, um, role or whatever, um, requires you to develop further. At least you have that foundation, you know, where you can work on that further. And, uh, you can be ahead of a lot of people, you know, just by having this exposure to e-commerce. So I think it's not a terrible idea, you know, even, um, even if it doesn't work out at the end and still learn a few skills along the way.
Joseph: [00:25:23] Yeah. And w what I think is compelling too, about your, your position is that you, you did succeed, you know, it w it went pretty well, you know, Oberlo doesn't just pull random people off the street to, uh, to ask for advice. They ask people who are, who are doing well in this space. So, yeah, I hear you being modest.
So, yeah, it was okay. You know what? I made it, I made it, I made a couple of figures here, so I, you know, I, I respect that. So I guess that's another, one of the things that, um, was demystifying, even just like getting set up to talk to you is that transitioning out of it. Doesn't have to be a failure thing.
Sometimes it's just like, you know, it's, this is actually going pretty well, but I'm not, I'm like you're saying I'm not, I'm not learning, uh, uh, the skills I want to continue. So was that also part of the motivation to go from, uh, your banking, uh, job into e-commerce? Was it also part of the learning process where you felt like you weren't really like developing your skills in that front facing position?
Jeffrey Ho: [00:26:15] Right. Yeah. I think that's one of the reasons why you could say it was also because like, you know, obviously. There's also a lot of things to learn in banking. I'm not trying to, you know, talk down on them. Obviously banking is a very, um, I guess it's a very respectful perspective role. Um, but you know, the, the kind of skills you learn is a bit different from e-commerce when you're starting off as like a pretty entry level role, you don't really learn that much.
You're trying to, I guess, understand the foundation first. And then, um, as you go deeper down into, you know, your career, um, that's where you learn to kind of more, I guess, advanced or like more in-depth knowledge of surrounding banking, but yeah, back then I felt that I learned already what there is to be learned in the front facing role.
And, um, even like on top of that, like, I wasn't really passionate about banking. I think that was one of the more important factors and one important reasons why. Um, I didn't really want to pursue it. So, um, I guess as a combination to answer your question between, um, not having that passion and that same time learning already, what there is needed to be learned.
Um, that's kind of, I guess, preventing me or maybe not wanting to pursue this further.
Joseph: [00:27:28] Uh, and I think, you know, in, in the position that I have right now, there is a great deal of learning. A lot of it has to do with just, you know, the questions that I ask guests, right. Um, uh, learning our, our, you know, our company is rapidly evolving and expanding.
And so there is a lot of new that comes in. And so what I think happens here is I think each person has to find a position that is a healthy balance between the learning and the labor. If something is like almost like a hundred percent labor, like a burger flipping job, and there's not a lot of learning involved, then it's somebody comes stagnant and stagnation is actually just decay.
If you consider how everything else continues to advance and even currency inflates. So stagnation can actually end up putting a person behind and not hold the position. So what I, what I think is what was happening with you as well as like, you, you want it, you, you, you want to learn and obviously it's labor is always going to be involved, but, uh, I think you, you leaned heavily into one and to continue to learn so that you can continue to develop your ability to provide labor.
At some point we'll have to work. Like we all have to like, you know, get our, get our hands busy one way or another.
Jeffrey Ho: [00:28:32] Yeah. I kind of understand that. I mean, at the end of the day, I think it depends on your priorities as well. Like if you want money. Sure. You can, you can, um, drop shipping is a really good, it's a very lucrative business still, and still, this might be harder, but it still is.
But if you're looking to, I guess, further you acknowledge and you want to learn more, it might be worth exploring other opportunities, because if there comes a time where, um, you know, everything you've learned in drop shipping might not be, you can't really learn more in terms of the realm of drop shipping.
Um, so, you know, it depends on your priorities, whether you want to be earning money or you end up, you really want to, uh, like it's developed further and, you know, kind of expand your knowledge and, you know, e-commerce in general. So. Really depends on the person.
Joseph: [00:29:15] Yeah. And I also think it depends on the person in how much of their workload, they want to be systemic employment versus how much of it they want it to be entrepreneurship.
Um, I hear multiple stories, you know, I hear people that they have, they're still working full time, but they also have their e-commerce business. People who quit focus entirely on e-commerce, even if it's just a prediction, but can you get a sense of how, what would be a happy balance for you? Like how much of your work week would be systemic versus how much of it would be, um, uh, entrepreneurship?
Jeffrey Ho: [00:29:44] Um, do you mean back then when I was working on my full-time job and I was working in e-commerce on the side?
Joseph: [00:29:49] And you know, if it helps question, but I was thinking more along the lines of like, where we're going now for you.
Jeffrey Ho: [00:29:54] Um, nowadays I can't really devote too much time on e-commerce because when I come back from, from my career by the job, um, I still have to work on my master's.
So, um, I don't really have much time to kind of work on my e-commerce business as much as I want to. So, but that's just, you know, kind of a, kind of a personal thing and kind of a, um, kind of a restraint on my end, but that's not to say it's not possible. It just might be a bit more tough for someone like me or someone else with like a very intense schedule like that.
But, um, I guess in terms of, um, maybe it's just a person who has a nine to five job or like a regular job who isn't really, um, who's job isn't really labor intensive. I think it's still possible to pull off having an e-commerce business on the side and actually working on it. And night times, especially since if you work off, if you, um, kind of get off at around five or six, you still have about a two to three hour period at least per night to work on it.
And I think that's ample time to kind of, um, get the thing off the ground and, you know, learn more about e-commerce, you know, from YouTube videos or like actually implementing, you know, different parts of the business, like, you know, the website or like the email sequence and things like that. So, uh, it's definitely not impossible. It's just more about, um, time management, I think.
Joseph: [00:31:14] Yeah. And, and I think, uh, what you're saying about it being labor intensive is a huge factor. If somebody comes home from work and they're completely drained because they were lifting steel girders all day, I don't, I don't blame them for not having the energy to.
Uh, a lot, a lot of risk involved in it. So that, that part, yeah.
Jeffrey Ho: [00:31:29] Not just mentally, I mean, not just physically, but also mentally you feel mentally drained. You don't want to be working. Right.
Joseph: [00:31:35] Right. Yeah. The mental equivalent of steel girders. Yeah. I know. I know. That's like, yeah. And that actually ties to, I think, I think in terms of mental strain.
So, uh, I think a lot of that ties into how much of the job is learning and, and a lot of it can just be like for, uh, for instance, I would say coming from a sales background is that there's a lot of like adaptation in the moment because each individual client, or every time I get a phone call, I have to learn the person.
I have to understand their, their, their habits and their patterns and try to figure out what is the best way to, uh, close a sale with them. Um, some, some of it is over time. Some of it becomes routine. Like I will get asked the same question multiple times. And so over time it does get easier to, to. Uh, to, to say those.
And then the challenge is like making a sound natural each time. So I think one of the issues too is as a, the more that a job teaches this, this is my problem. I don't know if this is a general thing, but my problem is that the more I have to learn on the job, the more drained I am mentally. So I, it is important to, uh, understand like, well, the more a job is teaching, the more I think there's a good incentive to stay there because in long in the long run, the skills that I develop over time will be more beneficial. So, you know, uh, learning is a very, I think the more you learn, it's more of a metric for you're in the right place. And they know this is something that is going to contribute to your growth in one way or another.
Jeffrey Ho: [00:32:59] Yeah, that basically means that to.
Joseph: [00:33:00] Make your money too.
Jeffrey Ho: [00:33:01] Yeah. Obviously, you know, there's a fine balance between, you know, making good money and, you know, having the capacity or, um, having the opportunity to learn, because, you know, you can be earning a lot of money, you know, having sales and things like that.
But if you're, if your knowledge is just capstan, um, you're not really growing as a person. And if your knowledge is really caps, then you might be stuck with the same, you know, routine skills, which might not be applied in other areas. So, you know, it's always good to be well, in my opinion is, um, you know, find being in an environment where you can actually learn, but also at the same time, you can also earn a bit of money in, you know, even if it means, you know, in the beginning you might not learn, you might not be earning a lot.
Um, you can still learn a lot of valuable skills, which you can later apply. And, um, and you know, those skills later on will be valuable people, you know, companies or different people that hire you or yourself might see as valuable. And that's where you can kind of reap those benefits later on. So it's good to have balance.
Joseph: [00:33:59] Yeah, and I think it's important too. Cause cause somebody could be told how to do something and they can memorize how to do it. But the key is to, to understand something on the fundamental level. And the reason why I say that is that learning things on a fundamental level, help prevent degradation. If I, if I'm just memorizing something and then I come in the next day and the rules have changed, then I have to remember rise it and my understanding hasn't have happened at all.
So that is another important thing to deal with too is like I was saying earlier learning, um, especially fundamentally keeps you from being behind where if everybody else continues to, to learn and to adapt and they understand things fundamentally, you know, each it's just cause it goes back to some of the very first conversations that I had is that each day is an opportunity to layer something new on top of what you learned the last day.
Yeah. It does get kind of discouraging sometimes to think about like how, because things are changing so often something that I've learned like can actually like not exist. That's something, I had a problem with a lot of games that I would play where like we would put a new, a new weapon, it would come out, we learn how to use it.
And like a week later the weapon's gone. Well, she thanks for wasting my time.
Jeffrey Ho: [00:35:03] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I think there's a difference between, um, you know, um, understanding the foundations of somebody actually memorizing something, you know, um, you know, because memorizing is, I think we've all been through this before and you know, in high school or like a private school.
You memorize, you know, the different, um, areas in the world and the geography. When you take geography, you memorize where everything is in the map, you know, that's memorization, but, and when it comes to foundation, you know, building the building blocks to something that involves understanding that thing or concept as well, not just memorizing for what it is, but what those mean and what, what you can do with it later on.
So I think building a foundation for something is definitely more valuable and more important than just memorizing something because that's where you can kind of have something to build on top of. And that's where you can really, I guess, learn that skill later on, then transfer it later on in other aspects of life.
Joseph: [00:36:06] By the way, if you're a current user of Debutify or haven't tried us out yet, Debutify version three has been released and now is a good time to upgrade or get started as any. Streamlined user interface along with an ever increasing array of conversion boosting add ons is waiting for you. So download today for free and start your journey. Who knows maybe I'll be interviewing you before too long.
This is a very specific question. Um, just about like mines, uh, your mindset going back into a more structured work environment. How, how was it going back to kind of, kind of a silly question, but I, I I'm, I generally want to know. How was it going back to taking orders where somebody would like, you know, tell you, basically tell you what to do and when it has to get done versus you giving yourself orders.
Jeffrey Ho: [00:36:52] I mean, obviously it's not a good feeling, right. But you have to be, you know, you have to be, I think from a position of, um, I guess, how do you say this? Like, you have to be kind of like a sponge because I and even a day when you're entering the corporate world, you have to understand that, sure, you have a couple of years of experience under the belt, but there's always going to be someone who has more experience than you.
And you have to come from a perspective of, um, you know, being grounded and being very, um, I guess the opposite of arrogant. Like you have to be an open mind and be humble and willing to willing to learn a lot more. Obviously that's a lot different when it comes to, um, when running your own business, because you're on your own, you don't have to take orders.
You feel on top of the world sometimes because when you, you see success, you, the attributes of success to your, your, your personal achievements, your, your, your, your ability it's different than the corporate world. But, um, obviously because people are a lot better than you in terms of skills, um, their skillsets, their experience, and things like that.
But you just have to understand that, you know, everyone starts off, um, the same, we're all at the same stage at one point. And you're just basically there, um, so that people can teach you the skills that they've acquired before. So yeah, it's definitely a shift in mindsets and, um, you just have to kind of adapt.
Focus on the positives and what you can learn from it better than, you know, I'm just saying like, oh, now I'm, I'm feeling inferior. You know, you just have to kind of let go of your ego and just learn and looking at it from that perspective, I guess.
Joseph: [00:38:24] Yeah. It could, it could be a tricky, uh, transitional process for somebody who like, has that, um, the, the more initiative somebody takes, the more like they're on their own boss to then move into something else.
I think a lot of will depend too on the company structure where if a company tries to elevate each individual and it's like, you know, we're all partners. Okay. You know, some partners are the partners who cleaned the toilets, but also we're all, you know, we all have to contribute to in order for this company to, uh, run effectively.
So, uh, so a lot of that will have to do with like finding the right place to work that actually. Uh, elevates you and values your, your prior experience, which leads me to another question. This is also like more of like a practical one, but when applying for the job, uh, on your, on your resume, uh, in specific, if this is like move to a private thing, it's cool.
It's whatever, but that's actually like something that people might come, uh, come up with. They gotta put this on their resume. So, uh, how did your, your, your, you you've been at this for awhile and you've had your, you know, you've had your, uh, uh, you know, it, as you say it went. Okay. Um, but how did you actually transfer that onto the resume when, uh, when applying for it. Keeping in mind, the reason why I think this is an important question is usually when people are or writing their resume, it's the going from one systemic business to the next. So there's, there's a through line there, whereas in your case, it's, it's the entrepreneurship side of it. So how did, yeah, just what, um, how did you, uh, yeah. Write it on your resume.
Jeffrey Ho: [00:39:48] Yeah. That's yeah, that's a very tricky question. I mean, kind of a tricky process as well, because it really depends on the company you're applying for, you know, some companies like it, then you have the entrepreneurial mindset, you have the entrepreneurial, um, kind of aspirations as well.
Um, some don'ts, you know, they just want you to be a worker. They want you to take orders. So it really depends on the company you're working for. Fortunately for mine, um, since I work at a digital agency and a lot of those employees now are very entrepreneur driven and they were once entrepreneurial themselves. They value entrepreneurship a lot more. And they don't really mind you working on a side business as long as you deliver results. I think it really depends on the corporate culture of the company and what they value and, um, uh, whether or not they kind of allow colleagues or employees to work on their own thing, you know, outside of work. For me, it's been a tough kind of, kind of a tough journey in the beginning, because I would say I was an entrepreneur before I ran my own business, you know, as an e-commerce, um, owner co founder, whatever you want to call it.
But, um, some companies I don't hear back because, you know, they might have, they might be a bit, um, I guess friends and in some ways, because you might be a direct competitor to them, but, um, um, some others they're okay as I mentioned, but, um, it's really about kind of finding ways to make it seem like you won't be a threat to them.
And instead, focusing on how you can provide value for them, um, think that's most important. Um, in addition to the corporate culture, of course, you have to take that it's consideration, but, um, yeah, I guess later on, um, I just decided to kind of change it more and, and position as me, um, being more of an e-commerce kind of coordinator or like a manager sort of role, as opposed to being a CEO and founder.
I think that was when I was more, I kind of more, uh, I had more success with, you know, finding interviews and actually going through the different rounds, uh, with the managers. Um, so yeah, it can be really tricky, uh, in the first couple of months when you make this transition, but it's, it's really all about, um, finding the right points and being strategic about, um, and, you know, using your words and how, how, uh, how you want to present this experience to your future employer or like the people you work with.
Joseph: [00:42:16] Right. And, and I suppose too, it also has a great deal to do with the industry at large, because you said that, you know, you're working for a digital agency, uh, the connective tissue between those two points is easier to grasp rather than, I don't know. I just pulling out the top of my head, I would say, I'm sorry.
I'm trying to, I'm trying to think of like a good example. I guess I would say I going back into, or nuts as you were in IT, but like if somebody were switching into IT. IT is a highly laborist position and it's a lot of like servicing people internally. So it's a lot of just taking the job, the tasks as they come in and doing them.
So there, there can be room for, I have some friends in IT, so I can speak a little bit to this, but like there is room for taking initiative, but, you know, companies, depending on how in touch the say like the CEO or the boards are, um, with the needs of the people, they can be protective of their legacy software and they never want to have it switched.
And so the IT people just kinda like I had to live with that even they know better. And they know that these, this can be improved. They just going to have to like, you know, uh, live with it.
Jeffrey Ho: [00:43:16] I think most important is the competitive aspect of it. Like whether you're going to be there, um, as a, as an employee, or like as a, someone who adds value to the company versus someone who's there to steal your information to your clients and your business.
So I think that's a big factor when it comes to, should I hire this guy or not? You know, is this guy actually going to be a valuable asset to the company or is he just there to see all the information for our company and leave. You know, that's, I guess something that's running inside your mind as well.
Joseph: [00:43:47] Wait, wait, wait. We need to deal with that. That's for sure. Although, yeah, I wouldn't, I, I, I guess I, I'm just trying to imagine, like, if somebody goes into the industry for the first. Anyways. I don't know. I don't, I don't want to get into like, what are the warning signs with the red flags of like sometimes.
Yeah, but I guess when they won't put on light to that as a, you never know, like some people they go in with good intentions and they get burned and they want to get revenge. And so anyways, one of the things that I didn't mention to you before we recorded before we recorded is just like your, your, your, your status with your YouTube.
Cause I know you've wanted to make content and. You went so far as to say that you will, but I think what happened is, uh, like I think the last video as you're willing to get back into it, it was before COVID hit and COVID just kind of like changes everything. Right? So, uh, what I was wondering is, you know, what's going through your mind these days with your YouTube content.
Are you still planning on making videos and remembering things? Thinking what we said before about say like degradation and adaptation, a lot of a lot is changing in e-commerce. So if you wanted to get back into making videos now, how do you feel you can best provide a value to people?
Jeffrey Ho: [00:44:52] Yeah, like you said, it's been a while since actually gone, you know, since the last time I actually made a video, um, that was at the same time.
That also means that, you know, I might not be as updated as it was before in regards to the trends of e-commerce. So what's happening now? What's working best? So I think in order to provide actual value and informative content to, you know, the people who follow me, it might, it might be, um, important for me also be a responsibility for me to do some research prior to making a video and understanding, you know, what's going on in industry and what's trending right now.
And what's what you should avoid right now before really making the video. I think that part of, you know, having that due diligence is, is, is kind of a responsibility for, for a, a YouTuber and, um, something that you really have to keep in mind before, you know, spreading false information. So, um, so yeah, I guess if I were to make a video, which I hope to, um, in the next month or so hopefully, um, I can do that and, um, you know, read more bouts what's going on now, what the best strategies are and then make it from there.
So, um, yeah, I'm really hoping to get back into it some time. Cause, uh, you know, it's pretty fun experience.
Joseph: [00:46:04] Yeah. Have you thought about making content based on what off, what we've even talked about today? Um, just, uh, getting, get more insights into your, your journey is switching into the digital agency and working on your master's degree.
Jeffrey Ho: [00:46:17] Yeah, I think, um, at some point I think I might consider doing that, but, um, at the end of the day, I think when I make content for YouTube, I make it based around what people want to see. I'm not saying that I don't focus on content. I want to make in terms of the YouTube algorithm. It just, it won't fail.
But for me, in terms of the YouTube growth. So, um, I think I would have like a healthy balance between, um, you know, making that, those types of videos and also providing a more practical knowledge and strategies that, you know, people are kind of used to seeing or what they want to see. Um, but it's definitely not a bad idea to, to, um, you know, include that in my content.
I think it would be, uh, you know, I guess a bit impersonal.
Joseph: [00:46:59] Yeah. And that's a good point too. It's a good point too, about the algorithm, because it does depend on what returns or what, uh, uh, takeaway or what growth that somebody needs there, the energy they expend to, uh, to yield. So what I mean by that is if I think what you're saying is like, if I'm going to put, I have a lot to do right, you have a lot to do. So if you're going to make the YouTube content, it has to have some element of a returns, just so that way you don't end up expanding the energy needlessly.
Uh, and it also speaks to, I think the, the importance of like, I mean, for me, for instance, I was just, just yesterday. I was, um, fiddling with, uh, with cause I wanted to set up my own, my own game stream, but do I have any, like, I don't have no intention whatsoever of like figuring out what the algorithm wants from me.
Uh, same with my own personal YouTube channel. Again, I don't. I don't think about that. I just make whatever want to make. So in that same way, it's important to find that balance between, um, uh, learning and labor. We also can say that it is important to find a balance between like, you know, w what is an outlet to just expend my energy freely, just to, you know, for my own self satisfaction versus what's an outlet where if I'm going to expend the energy, I do need to see something tangible in return.
Jeffrey Ho: [00:48:15] Yeah. I think I agree with that too, but, uh, you know, I guess also it depends on whether, you know, I guess what stage you're at and go YouTube journey. Like if you're starting off, um, you can have fun movie to content, but that doesn't really matter too much. But, um, once you reached a certain level in your YouTube career or YouTube journey, like, for example, if you have like 50,000 subscribers, you will tend to have more of a responsibility and more of a, um, incentive to want to make content that will further drive growth.
Or your channel because you're already seeing so much momentum. You want to make it any better. Right. Whereas if you have like a few hundred subscribers, for example, people tend to be more, um, I guess they would make content that's more, um, tailored to themselves by other than, um, what people want to see.
So, um, it would be usually more based around what their interests are, what they want to make, as opposed to what the algorithm wants them to make. If that makes sense. So also depends on, you know, what stage you're at and your priorities during the day.
Joseph: [00:49:21] Somebody blows up on YouTube. And so all of a sudden they have like 20,000 fans expecting content, like, okay.
Yeah. The pressure, the pressure is on of it, so, yeah. Yep, exactly. Um, I've got two for, uh, uh, only a little bit while longer. So there is one other question that I really wanted to get your take on, which is it's just the you're taking on like drop shipping as a label. And I, myself, even old course of this episode, I like, we both referred to people as like dropshippers lays.
I think you have, I don't know. Pretty sure you did, but I, I can't remember every last name that was said anyways. Um, lately I feel like there, I, I have an issue with that term, which is, uh, I think it puts too much emphasis on what is essentially the fulfillment method. So in if you have, let's just, what would be an example of, like, I could have thought one in advanced than I didn't, so, you know, uh, sucks to be me, but I would like to hear your opinion on like the just even the, the label of being a drop-shipper and cause remember, one thing that you pointed out earlier is how it is harder now to to, um, to be an e-commerce and to use the drop shipping fulfillment method. And a lot of that is because like a lot of the there's a lot of new, if we can call them barriers and obstacles, but it's really more of like regulations and just like, you know, less things that people can get away with.
So, so to speak as an industry evolves and there's more rules. So in a way it's. It's re elevated the drop shipping method. Try to get closer to, again, back to what we said earlier, closer to other brands that people recognize. So while e-commerce still has to find a way in there, I would say it's closer.
It's easier in that way to have a brand that can have household presence. Uh, but it's also harder to actually like get your foundations and to actually succeed. So all of that said, that's just kind of the, some of the theories that going through my mind, but like, I just wanted to hear how you feel about drop shipping as a whole.
Jeffrey Ho: [00:51:10] Um, yes. So I guess, as I mentioned before, you know, drop shipping is kind of getting more difficult, um, you know, coming into 2021 and onwards, I think it's going to be more emphasis on focusing on, you know, you building a brand, obviously. And, um, focusing on the customer as opposed to making money a lot, you know, in, in, in the first couple of months, then you run your business.
Um, I think the priority and the mindset has shifted, but traditionally, what is dropshipping is, you know, it's, it's an easy method, um, that, you know, has a lot of opportunity. A lot of it's very lucrative, very lucrative. It's something that has a really low barrier to entry. You know, anyone can start it. Um, but now, you know, over the years, since, you know, since it's gotten more popular since 2016 onwards, now it's becoming more of a business model that requires, um, not necessarily investment, but more due diligence and more effort around building something that's credible and something that is not just a run of the mill, um, design, uh, kind of websites, you know, something that's more professional, something that has a good backend system, something that has good branding elements. You know, I think these are, um, you know, something to really focus on now coming into 2021 onwards and, you know, brands like, you know, gym shark and Nike and all these, these are two brands that we should now look, um, more into, um, and to see kind of what they do, what they're doing, right.
And why people are trusting that brand. And, um, you know, what what's, they're providing in terms of value, uh, in addition to the products. So I think these are the types of elements that, you know, people should really focus on. Getting into e-commerce now, uh, drop shipping 2021, which is not something that people really focus on few years back now, they, it was relatively easy back then you throw up a product that's in demand for a couple of ads on Facebook.
You get sales. You fulfill the method and like you have four weeks shipping time, but now it's more like, you know, if you want customer service, you want shipping times to be reduced. If you want a good brand, you want a good designed w a well-designed websites, you know, these are sort of things that people should focus on now.
Um, and yeah, I guess on top of that, I just want to talk about, you know, drop shipping, the concept of drop shipping and the stigma attached to it. Uh, I think you mentioned before that, you know, when people say, um, drop shipping, they, they had a lot of negative kind of associations with it. You know, it's either like cheap, uh, China made in China, Alibaba, AliExpress.
But, you know, as you mentioned before, you know, job shipping is merely a fulfillment method and people need to understand that. And it's just not something that's, um, people should take advantage of or, um, should, should, should really misunderstand, you know, this is about this concept. It's, um, that's basically the phone method and it's not something that you can make money, a lot of money from real quick.
Yeah. There's just, we should really change the, the definition of structure. And I think moving forward by not doing these same mistakes again and making a cheap looking website and, um, having like five weeks shipping times. So I guess that's my interpretation right now and what I've gathered through these figures.
Joseph: [00:54:35] I try my best to like, not, uh, I go on Facebook these days, um, just cause, you know, you can get addictive and next thing I know I've wasted like 10 minutes, but I was doing a little bit of a scroll and some, and one of my friends see it posted this review of like this store that was selling these octopuses where you can turn them inside out.
And it turns into a different color octopus, a little fleshy. I'm sure if I go on to AliExpress, I can find it. And he was escaping review where, you know, I contacted customer service. They never responded, they never said the product. They just took my money, complete scam. And, and I just looked at him like a year ago.
I would have thought boy, that company, man, they, you know, they, they, they, they started off with such good intentions, but they are just falling apart. But now I'm like, now I understand. It's just a drop shipper. It is somebody who's just like, just, just like a ribbon runner. Like I've been there. I know, I know.
That feels like so, so in the industry, just from my observation, obviously, you know, I'm coming up on my first year, um, in the industry and I'm, and I'm proud to be a part of it in my own small way, but it's, it's, it is harder. But it is good, hard because it going back to what we're saying, it compels people within it to, uh, learn real, tangible skills that can actually, um, uh, leads to running a successful business, not just using a drop shipping fulfillment method, but skills that actually help running business in general.
Jeffrey Ho: [00:55:52] Yeah. I would agree with you. I mean, when, like, whenever it sees like an ad on Facebook that sells a certain product, which I don't know. Um, fortunately, because I think it turned off all those ads already, but whenever I do see it and I see comments, uh, in that ad saying, oh, my product hasn't arrived yet.
It's been five weeks or the quality is bad. I just assume it's a jock shipping brand because usually they don't take the care to it. They don't take too much care, um, you know, of their customers and the shipping times. So this is kind of an interesting story and interesting insight.
Joseph: [00:56:28] Yeah. Well, my, my, my final say on them is, is the people are gonna suck the, let them, you know, it gives us, it gives people to do a good job, a chance to, uh, to elevate themselves more and to, and to stand out and be like, well, you know, I I've, I've bottled things online and, and they, uh, And they sit and they, I thought I was buying a blue dress, but it turns out it was white and all this, uh, uh, all that other stuff.
So with that, I know it's late for you. So I'm going to get you on ad ears. Uh, I dunno, like, is your, is your, is your bedtime intimate or do you stay up a little while longer after this?
Jeffrey Ho: [00:56:57] No, no, I stay up pretty late, so I stay around until like two or three.
Joseph: [00:57:02] Yeah, I I'm trying to transition word of like a morning person. It is not working. Anyways. So the, so the final question is, um, if you have any like parting words of wisdom or last bits of advice, or like an answer to a question, I didn't ask anything along those lines you want to share with us and more than welcome to, and then, uh, let the audience know how they can.
Okay. Well, to be fair, you know, you, you want to get your, your content up and again, but the, the con that you did put out, um, uh, can still be a value. So let the audience know if they want to check it out where they can go look.
Jeffrey Ho: [00:57:32] You can just search Jeffrey Ho on YouTube and think I should be the first one that pops up on the feed, I guess. I'm you can also follow me on, uh, on Instagram. It's just, Hey, I'm Jeff Ho. Um, but my profile is I think private right now. So, um, as long as you know, you let me know that you're, you're you you're you know, me through this podcast or like through other channels, I can definitely accept it. And, um, yeah, I guess parting advices. Um, Focus more on the customer. Be drive value driven rather than money driven, you know, drop shipping, um, focus your efforts and your time on building a proper website and, um, a good landing page.
I work on driving paid traffic and, um, be good at digital marketing, I guess that's, that's um, kind of one of the more relevant advice I can give right now.
Joseph: [00:58:22] Well, it's, uh, uh, as always for our audience, it's, it's an honor and a pleasure to be able to collect this information and share it. So we certainly are happy to do our part. I'm happy to have you here too. It was great to have this conversation and you just kind of like explore that side of it because there was a lot of pieces of the e-commerce puzzle. And, um, this was a piece of it that I honestly, I didn't even think to cover. So it, uh, it, it helps to know that there's still a lot left to be discovered, even at the point that I am at now. Like 90 episodes in like there's the, the, the further I go along, the more I realize how much bigger things are really getting. So with that said, thanks one more time. And to our audience, all the best take care and we'll check in soon.
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