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Jonathan Baldock - Social Hp, Harness The Potential Of Employee Advocacy

icon-calendar 2021-08-03 | icon-microphone 53m 18s Listening Time | icon-user Joseph Ianni

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Fellow Torontonian Jonathan Baldock brings social hp to the table today, along with a handy look into some of the insights of Linkedin owing to his prior work there. We talk about the importance of employee advocacy for the well being of a company in the eyes of our peers across both b2b and b2c.



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Jonathan Baldock: [00:00:00] What do you share? Right. What are the right ratios? You know, cause you don't want to just talk about like products and services. There's a ratio that we would, uh, typically talk about, which was three, two, one. So every six pieces of content that you share, you would share three pieces of thought leadership, two pieces of industry news, and one piece about you or your company.

If I keep doing that, then every now and again, when I share something about my company, they're like, oh, good for you. That goes out to their entire network. So it's a great amplifying effect. 

Joseph: [00:00:33] You're listening to Ecomonics, a Debutify podcast. Your resource for one of the kind insights into the world of e-commerce and business in the modern age. This is Joseph. I'll be presenting a wealth of industry knowledge from interviews, with successful business people and our own state-of-the-art research. Your time is valuable. So let's go.

Fellow Torontonian, Jonathan Baldock brings social HP to the table today, along with a handy look into some of the insights of LinkedIn owing to his prior work there. We talk about the importance of employee advocacy for the wellbeing of a company in the eyes of our peers across both B2B and B2C. 

Jonathan Baldock it is good to have you here in Ecomonics. Good to see you again. You are somebody that we had a, uh, well, an off-camera conversation with a couple of a couple of weeks or maybe a month ago. So how you doing today? How are you feeling? 

Jonathan Baldock: [00:01:27] I'm pretty good. You know, I'm, I'm one shot into the, uh, the vaccine, uh, experience and had no side effects from, uh, sir AstraZeneca. So I'm doing alright. 

Joseph: [00:01:37] Okay. I mean, uh, I, I can't see you. You're you're I think you're you're you're pigmentation has complete. No, I'm kidding. I'm kidding. The joke, the joke there was I lost visibility. Yeah, totally 

Jonathan Baldock: [00:01:48] If truly invisible. That'd be a bonus. 

Joseph: [00:01:50] Yeah, I suppose so. Uh, okay. I was trying to talk myself out of it there for a second, but I guess superpowers are kind of a, uh, kind of incentive to get enough money.

Yeah, I I'm atin foil hath kind of guy. So like some of the, some of that stuff, my, my tenfold hat, it just goes completely upright and slowly like, no worries. Anyways, so, uh, but before I go, I go full on, um, uh, Alex Jones on you let's focus. So tell us, uh, Jonathan, what you do and what you're up to these days.

Jonathan Baldock: [00:02:16] Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, currently I, um, an advisor. Uh, for an organization called Social HP, uh, they have, uh, an employee advocacy platform. And so basically the idea is that you want your employees saying good things about your company and in doing so there's benefits to the employees. There's benefits to the company as a company, you would want to focus on the ones for you.

And so, uh, some companies use it for social selling. Some companies use it for pure marketing, uh, some for brand reputation. And, uh, and the last use case is talent acquisition. And then for employees, usually they want to share content because it makes them look smart and it makes them feel proud. And so that's what I do.

I help companies deal with that topic of, you know, amplifying the voice of the employees and, uh, and measuring all the good stuff on the backend. 

Joseph: [00:03:06] I've uh, I've, I've had quite a, quite a few jobs in my, uh, in my 31 years, uh, so far. And, and I like the idea of, you know, taking, taking pride in what I do. And I like that. I'm happy to tell people about, about what I do, even if it wasn't always the most glamorous, I still, one of the, one of the first jobs that I had, I was a grocery boy.

So I'm here. Isn't it. Awesome. Yeah. I was a, I was a Fortinos kid. 

Jonathan Baldock: [00:03:30] I worked at. If, uh, if you, if you've ever heard of that, but Fortinos was just down the street and they offered me 10 cents more an hour, and I was tempted to take it at the time. 

Joseph: [00:03:39] I mean, it must, must've been a great degree app's atmosphere at, at the then. 

Jonathan Baldock: [00:03:43] It was pretty good. I was there for three years all the way through high school.

Joseph: [00:03:46] And the thing was, you know, we're working as a grocery store. I, when I would talk about it, I would always talk about it in a, in a disinterested, if not cynical sense. Cause I'm a grocery boy. Yeah. I spend all day putting, put in cans on and, and the reason and the thing that kept me going and the thing that tends to keep me going with a lot of jobs and I kept it, this one, this one is, uh, is good on its own merit. Was often, you know, the people that I would work with and, uh, and, and feeling like, you know, we were, we were in during this together. So I think one of the, one of the prevailing challenges in all of this. How is a work environment, you know, good enough that somebody wants to be proud of it and wants to talk about it and wants to share that with others.

And, and, and, and it comes from a place of sincerity. 

Jonathan Baldock: [00:04:28] Well, so, um, I guess it depends on the company, but, um, most organizations. Uh, and I'll just sort of give you a quick sort of background. So a lot of my is actually from LinkedIn and I spent almost 10 years there working, helping clients doing various different things.

And, uh, and I was, I was with LinkedIn at the beginning of 2011 all the way up until, uh, the end of the summer of this last year. And, um, so most of my focus has been LinkedIn related. Most of my clients, you know, that was their primary focus, obviously. And so on LinkedIn, um, most of the companies that are B2B.

Um, and so there tend to be a little more professional. So for example, if I think about like my experience at the grocery store, almost nobody caring about their job, right? Like, you know, they were they're part-time they would do their actually even the full-timers, they were there, they would go in, they would do their work and they would get out.

And then if you wanted to talk with them about their job, they had zero interest in talking about their jobs, but in a, in a corporate environment and a professional. Um, most people want to feel proud about where they work and they want to, um, that doesn't necessarily mean they're all super happy with their jobs.

There's a good portion of the public that isn't, but, um, any way that they can. Uh, be made to feel better about it as a good thing. And then also, um, for them, you know, to be honest as a certain degree of, of, um, wanting to put on the right face, if you aren't happy there, right? Like, I mean, I want to be able to represent myself in the best possible way so that maybe I can get a better job.

And I can move on to the job I would really love. So there's, there's a little bit of that too. Right. And, um, and the net of that I think is for the individual. Um, I want to raise my professional profile. I want to look like a subject matter expert. I want to look like, um, you know, a professional in a space that's well-respected and perhaps.

Um, you know, somebody that's adding value to the network because that does make them more marketable and will help them get their next job. So I think from an individual's perspective, even if they're in a place where they aren't happy, um, there's, there's still quite a bit of compelling stuff there.

That being said, if I am not sharing anything about the company and I'm not really reading anything about the company, it's easy for me to feel detached. Whereas if I'm working for a company and they're doing all kinds of crazy good things for the community work, uh, projects that they're doing. And they're highlighting employees that all of a sudden you're like, oh wow.

Like I work with that amazing person. I didn't know. And we're doing this good stuff in the community then that kind of constant reminder will also make you feel more proud of where you work because that brand is now not only being put out to your network, but it's being put through to you as well. So it's a good reminder of the fact that you have invested some time in, in a good place.

Joseph: [00:07:15] So one point that I, that I want to raise that I think is, uh, it, excuse me, important takeaway. Well, you know, while a lot of what we talk about here on the, in the, uh, Ecomonics podcast, it tends to lead to more, as people who are in the entrepreneurial spirit, you know, they want to make their own way, they want to build their own company.

So in that sense, they would have to think about this as they're building their companies out. But you know, a lot of us, we're still, we're still employees. Some people, I mean, like I said before, I do enjoy where I am. Some people might be in positions where they. Uh, significantly less, but what you said about putting on a face, um, or putting on a mask?

Uh, I like to use the term mask, I think, because it leans into my, you know, my, my arts, my artistic background and just the philosophical content that, you know, we all, you know, we all have masks and. You know, guys, I'm I got, uh, my beard has kind of a mask, right. I have to pay money to take my mask off and kind of reveal, uh, my, my mortuary face.

And then you get into like makeup and visuals and people put makeup on to, to mask themselves or enhance different things. So that's a whole other thing that you don't have to really get into. Um, but I remember seeing this year, I use YouTube for, I think it's is first thing I believe is Phil. I can remember his last name, but he is like a jobs in the hiring expert.

And he said, one of the biggest mistakes you can make in an interview is saying you did not like the last job. Um, because what that does is true. If the interviewer we hear that and think, okay, well, if he didn't like his last job, this is either the job actually was a nightmare, or this is the kind of person who finds things to dislike about wherever it is that they happen to be.

Um, which is, uh, a mindset issue that the person doing the conduct, you know, the, the PR the potential employee has to given in mind. So, I mean, some, some of it is just understanding that you have a job, uh, be grateful that you have a job. Um, but do they also, it also has to do with like, How can you find a positive spin on the situation?

Because anybody can go in and based on their own relative experience, they can choose to be negative about it, or they can choose to be positive about it. 

Jonathan Baldock: [00:09:13] Yeah. I mean, it's a choice, right? It's a choice as to how you spend your time. Um, and, and if you're in that position where you don't enjoy the work you do.

Uh, but you've got a job and you are thankful for having it or where you choose to be thankful for having it because there's a bunch of people that have jobs and they aren't thankful. And then when they don't have a job, they're like, oh, wow. I wish I had that job. So, you know, I would say, look, if you've got a job, at least at a minimum, you should be thankful you're working.

Um, and then beyond. Um, you know, there's a bunch of things that are within your control, which is what you put out to the world. And, um, you know, uh, you, you tend to attract like-minded people. So if you're putting out a lot of positivity and a lot of help, then you're going to be dry, um, bringing around more of those kinds of people that are going to help move you forward as well, you're gonna attract them.

And so, um, I don't, I wouldn't suggest being disingenuous and like, you know, putting on a face so that you're basically just walking around kind of full of it. Um, and you're kind of, you know, blowing steam up everybody's but, you know, we don't need to do that, but at the same time, I think, you know, it's, it's good to be conscious about what we're putting out there.

And, um, and then, you know, translating that over to the business side, like how does a company represent themselves? Well, I mean, even if you have your, just your own business and you're by yourself and you don't have employees. How you represent your business, that is your brand and it is your reputation.

So, and, and if we think about LinkedIn, the platform that you can control that reputation. In fact, it's the one platform that you really can control it. If you start messaging and sharing content out on Twitter, you know, the world could come flying in and crazy stuff happens and people are commenting and there's, there's no recourse.

People can be anonymous, they can say whatever they want and Facebook to a certain degree. And some of the other platforms, whereas LinkedIn, if I say something negative, every single one of the people that are connected to me or have access to being able to see that and know that I do. And so there's a huge disincentive for me to be negative.

Yeah. There's a huge incentive for me to be positive, encouraging people, helping them answering questions, you know, sort of the, the sort of the idea of like, you know, the tide lifts all ships. So if we have that idea in that mentality, I think that's a great way to do it. And then if I'm a solopreneur, I have my own business or maybe I just have a few employees and I'm working my way.

You know, uh, growing my business, um, the better I can represent our business and the better I can encourage the employees to represent the business and have pride in it. Then the more people are going to see that business, um, as legitimate and, uh, and you know, um, you're able to manage the reputation of the brand.

And so then it comes down to, you know, what do you share. Right. What are the right ratios? You know, cause you don't want to just talk about like products and services. If all you do is just message. Like we now sell this and we sell that and we've got this on sale and you should buy this and please click here.

People are just going to tune out super fast, especially on a platform like that. But I think every platform, I think everybody would tune out on that because it's like, oh, all this person does this. Just, just pitch stuff. Um, and unless you're pitching something that everybody wants and it's half the price, you know, it's gonna get boring pretty fast.

So, um, so there is a, there a ratio that we would, uh, talk typically talk about, which was three, two, one. And so every six pieces of content that you share, you would share three pieces of thought leadership. Two pieces of industry news and one piece about you or your company. And I think if you keep that kind of ratio, doesn't have to be exact.

But I think if you keep that kind of ratio where you think I'm really, it's about lifting all ships and then every now and again, I talk about me and what I want, then that's a, that's a great way to approach it because. If I find an article and I think people in my network could really benefit from this.

I read the article and I think it's valuable and I learned something and then I share it out and I give that opinion when I read this, this is what stuck out for me, or this is my take on it. You know, then that's something that everybody in the network goes, oh, wow. That's like, oh, you know, Jonathan shared that and it was valuable.

And I really appreciate it. Now, my last memory of the person that shared it is. So, and if I, if I keep doing that, then every now and again, when I share something about my company, they're like, oh, good for you, or that's great. And when they do that, that goes out to their entire network. So it's a great amplifying effect.

Joseph: [00:13:30] And then, uh, it, even if it doesn't immediately translate into an increase in the bottom line, it, it improves the, the foundation of the company. It improves improves perspective, like you said, uh, positivity draws in more positivity. Um, there, sorry, go ahead.

Jonathan Baldock: [00:13:46] Oh, I was just going to say that, that note on increasing the bottomline.

Yeah, it will eventually. Yeah. And so that's, um, at LinkedIn, we used to talk about the buyer's journey and, you know, you might think about like any big decision in your life. You're not just going to see one ad and then go, I'm going to go do that. Like, let's say, you're thinking about buying a car and, uh, you, you know, in six months maybe your lease is up or you're, you know, you're like, okay, in six months I'm going to get a different car.

You know, you don't drive down the road and see an ad for a Mercedes and go, oh, well, that's it. I'm going to have to buy that Mercedes now. They were smart to put that out there. Cause they got me. I got to go do it. Like that's not how it works. 

Joseph: [00:14:25] People step outside of a Starbucks and they see us drive by St. Louis side of the road to get, you know, I could go for a ride.

Jonathan Baldock: [00:14:30] Exactly. But if I'm in the market for a car in that period of time, and then Mercedes does a really good job of telling me their story. I learned about all the awards they're winning. They've got a great company culture. Maybe I'm really concerned about, you know, um, uh, um, sustainability and there they talk a lot about how they're the most sustainable carpet.

I don't know if they are, but you know, all of these good things. Then maybe there's 25 30 touchpoints over that six months where they're not ads, they're really just sort of talking about who they are and you know, what good they're doing and all that kind of stuff. By the time I'm now ready to buy a car.

I'm like, okay, cool. Well, I was thinking about these brands, but I think I should also, I should also really seriously look at that Mercedes. So it's not about an ad. It's about the conversation and it's about that buyer's journey. And if you're in front of them constantly, then you stand a much better. Of, um, having that brand recognition, the brand recall.

So that way, when, uh, that you go to make that decision, that company is top of mind. Well, if you have your own business, how do you stay top of mind is by doing that kind of activity, staying in, you know, constantly, uh, you know, getting those touch points. So that way, when they're ready for a product that you sell you're top of the list, some people, the buyer's journeys to three touch points, others, it could be literally a year and a half. But it will pay off. 

Joseph: [00:15:53] I, yeah, I, I believe you a hundred percent. And I, I mean, I didn't mean to denigrate the concept and saying that it doesn't happen right away, but it just happened. Okay, cool. Yeah.

Jonathan Baldock: [00:16:02] I just thought I'd add like the next, you know, component as to where that heads. 

Joseph: [00:16:07] Yeah, sure. I think one of the, I mean, this might be just a personal skepticism because I know oftentimes how I think does not reflect the masses, but, um, even, yeah.

In articles and in content that is written, as you say, describes to, um, contributes to thought leadership, there's always this element of if it's re represented by a brand like we use, we'll continue to use the Mercedes as the example. Yep. I'm not that good at disassociating, the idea that sooner or later they are trying to funnel me towards a purchase.

So I think one of the challenges is for companies to think about aside from their profitability and their ability to, you know, to, to grow and expand and, uh, and, and keep up with the competition is also what are there other things that are. Well, they're, they're charitable actions. Um, they're the research technology, how they're contributing to a larger effort.

And I think companies, you know, given that this is a, a competitive environment, they might be reluctant even to share some of that information because then all of a sudden it keeps them from, from being ahead. So, um, have we, can we, can we say with, uh, with any degree of certainty, This is always, has mainly been, uh, for the net.

Good. And that companies don't end up, um, maybe losing their edge by oversharing information. 

Jonathan Baldock: [00:17:25] Well, it depends, I guess, on what you described as oversharing. But, um, I would say, I mean, if they're talking about the good work that they're doing in the community and how they're, you know, approving technology and all that kind of stuff, that is definitely a massive asset towards what they're trying to accomplish, which is more sales, uh, because, because you have a different perspective of the.

You know, there are some brains that like, as soon as he say that brand's name, you have a feeling or, or some impression about them. Sometimes it's good. Sometimes it's bad, but, uh, but we have that, that feeling or impression of both of them, you know, sometimes it might be, uh, you know, if they're trying to hire people, um, they may struggle with that because you keep thinking about them as the product, not the place that people actually work, you know?

So it really just depends on the scenario, but, uh, uh, you know, I think if the company sharing 10 times a day and, uh, and it's all about their ecosystem, that's valuable, but they should be mixing in industry news and thought leadership and other things. The other note is, and I think you made a good point at the beginning.

There is that disassociation, like the fact that like, oh, okay, well there's something they're talking about. They're probably trying to pitch me something. I mean, to be honest, like what company is it? Right. They're not just talking about stuff for the sake of not talking about even when they make charitable contributions, it's because they want that recognition so that people go, oh, they're such good people, you know?

And then you go, I want to buy from them. Well, I mean, if you have two companies and one's making charitable contributions, the other one. And they have equal products and equal pricing. You're probably going to lean towards the one. That's doing some good. So that's why they're talking about it. There's a reason there's a motive, obviously.

But, um, beyond that, uh, when we talk about employees sharing that content, like let's say, you and I are connected and you work for one of these companies and you share a story that is about the company may not be about a product or service, but maybe something that you guys are doing in the community.

Um, that's when more of that disassociation happens from the brand, because I know. So employees are twice as trusted as the brand. So even if it's an ad, if the employee shares the ad, I'll take that at twice as seriously as I would, if the company paid to put the ad in front of me. And so that's also part of the reason why you want employees to be able to share.

This kind of content mix because not only is it do some good for the, uh, you know, for the employee, but it also does a lot of good for the company.

Joseph: [00:19:51] Have you seen, um, typical methods by which companies use, I guess, to maybe motivate or incentivize their employees to, to share this? I mean, granted, some of it does come from a genuine place of enthusiasm. But even that I think can go too far. Uh, even the, you know, the idea of oversharing to me, that's a rather like a specific, uh, issue that I don't think most companies are going to run into.

But anyways. 

Jonathan Baldock: [00:20:13] Yeah, it's pretty, it's pretty narrow. You, you end up with, if a company has a thousand employees and you have a platform that like what I represent, which is social HP, um, statistically, my experience has been that about half is about how many you could get to sign up for this. The other half just don't have any interest.

So that's one note. So if you've got a thousand employees, you could likely sign a 500. Then the second note would be of those 500. How many are interested in actually going into a tool, finding a story and sharing it out? Well, it's not a high percentage, somewhere around 20. That's been my experience when I was at LinkedIn, we had a social sharing platform called elevate and we saw about 20% of the active usage.

And so you've got 20% of your employees that will log in and share something. And that's because they're enthusiastic. Maybe they like new technology or because they see the benefits for them. Right. I'm getting, it's going to make me look smart. It's gonna make me a subject matter expert and I'm gonna feel good about the company.

So these are all good things. Those are also probably people that adopt new technology. So when the new iPhone comes out, they're probably more, you know, statistically more likely to order it. They're, you know, they're, they're more interested in this kind of stuff. The other 80% of the employees, they might raise their hand and say, yeah, this is a great idea.

And I do want to share thought leadership. I want to, you know, have this right mix of content. But then in practicality, the change of behavior is a lot to ask of them, you know, forming a new house. Is difficult. And then also there's no, like, it's not like if I don't do this, you're going to fire me so immediately, like I just forget about it or I'm too busy or whatever, or maybe I'm intimidated by it because I'm like, I'm not a content expert and I'm also not a copywriter.

So I really, you know, I don't know what to do. So then it's the hardest part with these kinds of platforms and programs is what do you do with the 80%? How do you get them to share that's that's the sort of the million dollar question. 

Joseph: [00:22:05] Yeah. I mean, it w it comes down to how much you're willing to, to put down for out and how much you're able, I guess, to do your, your cost benefit analysis for it.

Um, in the same way that, regardless of what messaging accommodates, you're saying, you're saying that like, okay, at the end of the day, the company still needs to, uh, provide a service to, to keep going. Um, so if, if, if a company says, I'll give you a thousand dollars, but this article, uh, I think the, the participation rate is going to, it's going to up. 

Jonathan Baldock: [00:22:32] It'll be somewhere around a hundred.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. But, but those incentives, like, unless it's that kind of compensation, which no company is going to pay for it, cause that's more than a cost per click ad know. So they're not going to do that. There are like, you know, you can do things like, um, Hey, you guys you'll get points. When you get likes comments and shares, then we'll add up those points and you can redeem them.

So you can do like contests or rewards and, and leader boards and those kinds of things. Uh, but only a select percentage of employees even care about. And there's a bit of a honeymoon period when these kinds of platforms come in, which is like, oh, this is so exciting. And then after a little while, it's like, what were they talking about?

And then, oh, now they're constantly emailing me and asking me to do something. So, you know, there's only so much value there, I think. But the, um, that that's the struggle is like that 80, 20, um, the reason why I consult for social HPS, cause they have an answer for the 80 as well as the 20. So we have clients that have a hundred percent usage, which is amazing.

And, um, but the, uh, But my experience in watching competitors in a space and watching LinkedIn and watching our clients for four and a half years, um, those kinds of like competitions or, you know, incentives they're either ruinously expensive or they just, you know, they only get a slice of people because not everybody cares about, you know, winning or, and once you and the people that really care about it, once they've won, you can't keep letting them win every week.

Right. Otherwise, oh, Steve wins again. And then everyone else is frustrated. Uh, Steve sharing like a bandit, you know, 50 times a day, getting all these likes and comments and he earned so many points that he wins every single time. And then everyone else is like, well, this is pointless, right? No people gave it.

Joseph: [00:24:13] Okay. So within the companies that, uh, have taken those solutions provided for the 80%, um, what have been some of the, you know, the, some of the reasonable, uh, methods to get such a high degree of participation from the company? 

Jonathan Baldock: [00:24:27] Um, the biggest factor and what separates, um, what I do now versus what I was able to do at LinkedIn is a social HP built a do it for me functionality, which means the employees like this.

I want to share content. I want to look smart. I want to feel good, blah, blah, blah. But I'm kinda not interested in actually doing it. So if you have somebody that'll do it for me. And that's what we built. So we built basically the ability for an administrator to have all the people that are, that sign up for the, do it for me side to just say, let the administrator pick what I should share and when I should share it, give me copy options.

And then I sent it to either you do it for me automatically like a hundred percent or you do it for me. And then I just get a notification says, please approve this. And then I can adjust it if I want. And then that's taken it, you know, to, you know, instead of 20% usage, our average overall average is 80%.

And the only reason why it's not all a hundred is because there's a bunch of people that set their calendar too. I want to approve it. And then they never approve anything, which is, uh, you know, still another factor. There's always going to be those people, but there's, we do have some clients where everybody just signed up for do it for me.

And they, they, they don't want to have to approve anything. They all can share. And as long as the company is clear, like, Hey, this is the kind of stuff we're going to share. This is how often we're going to share. This is how we're going to write it, et cetera, et cetera. So then the employee knows exactly what's going to happen.

Then there's no like surprises. Then it works like a charm.

Joseph: [00:26:01] I would also think too that, um, if a lot of this content that is being shared is already either on the blog or is, is being, um, disseminated in some other way. It's like you have to go through the approval twice. So we're in reality, it's already been approved.

It's already gone through the usual channels. So this is just one more way for it to then be spread out, I guess, uh, on the, on the opposite side of that. Have you seen any instances where it's encouraged or impacted the kind of content that companies are putting. Um, how, like how closely they've adopted the 3, 2, 1 rule at compared to what they were doing before.

Jonathan Baldock: [00:26:34] Um, so yeah, most companies, uh, historically will just share mostly stuff about them. And so we definitely encourage that, that best practice of sharing, like things that'll, that'll actually help the community and help them. The employees networks. Um, so that, that change in behavior is good. Um, and then the other piece I would say is, uh, sorry, you had a second part of that question.

Joseph: [00:26:54] Yeah. I'll reiterate, I think, because if you think you might've covered both of them, basically with one answer, but it's, um, how it might remotivate people to change their content based off of what the digital channels is going to go to.

Jonathan Baldock: [00:27:06] So, um, so historically companies, if they don't share this way, the only way they know what works content wise is when they either post to their own corporate channel, which usually you're just getting the standard people, liking a commenting on it, or they're doing a paid campaign. And to test what works in a paid campaign is dangerous. Because if you put out an ad like let's, you know, an advertorial, whether even it's a story or an ad, whatever.

Um, and you're trying to figure out like what copy and what image is going to work the best. You're literally spending money while you're trying to figure it out. Whereas if you're sharing content through your employees channels, you'll see which copy, which image and everything else is working. And you can kind of get a, a sense of based on my employees, audiences, um, what is most compelling.

And then you can start to use that. And it'll affect what, uh, image and copy options you choose when you do pay campaigns. So then your paid campaigns actually become significantly more valuable and more and more successful. So, um, because we can, on one story, we can provide like multiple copy and multiple image and options for the exact same story, and then have, uh, different employees share with different versions of it.

You can actually AB test all day. Which options are going to work the best. And then we give you that information in the reporting. So it very much affects not only the content that they choose, but also even what image and the copy that they choose to write. 

Joseph: [00:28:38] Hmm. And I guess too, it would also depend somewhat on the profile and background of the employee in question, because you have people who specialize in backend.

And so all of their connections are in development space. Whereas my connections are more front end, so I would want to select articles that would appeal more to people that I'm already connected with.

Jonathan Baldock: [00:28:57] A hundred percent. You want to make sure that you target the content to the audiences that you're, that you're targeting.

And that, that, you know, and a great example would be for talent acquisition. Um, so you know, like employment branding. Sure. It works. Uh, you've got some general EVP stuff that you want employees to share out. It's general. It's overall about our company. Why we're great to work for, you know, great place to work.

But if you're targeting, let's say you're targeting backend software devel. And then you're sharing like success stories of the front end software developers. They're going to be like, I don't care. Like, I don't care about that project. I would never work on a front end project. I only work on like the backend stuff.

So, but if, you know, like, okay, I need to put this kind of story through those, you know, the, the, you know, the software engineers that work on the backend and it's compelling to those people and they would find this really interesting. Then when you share it out, those people are like, oh cool. They do such cool work there because it's relevant.

So relevancy is, is a big, big factor. 

Joseph: [00:29:52] So earlier on, on one of the threads that we had, um, uh, we had unraveled is, you know, the, the impact that any one employee can have, even on the, uh, Uh, on the wellbeing, uh, and the growth and evolution of a company. And it reminded me of, I think, where a lot of people, they get disinterested in the idea of holding public office.

Now I'm not, not, I'm not turning this into a, a liberal versus conservative thing. Uh, it's just about how discouraging a lot of people or how discouraged a lot of people are at the idea of getting into public service because they see what, however, the premier with the prime minister does. And there's such a degree of separation between, but we have control over and what they do.

And it reminded me of the don't necessarily have to run for premier of the country, which for those of you don't know, that's our equivalent of a president. I think, uh, we, we, I guess we do answer to the queen, but that's a whole other situation. Somebody could run for local office. They can run for something within their own district.

And the reason why I bring this up is because I think it is possible for even one individual employee to have a, more of a small scale, but still significant influence on the growth of their company. If this is something that they're invested in, even if they didn't create it in the same way, I didn't create the country.

That doesn't mean I don't want to, um, have activity or have autonomy over in my own small way. So I would wondering if, you know, I I'm wondering based on the data that you've collected. And if there's any examples of this is of employees having a greater degree of impact on their, on their own company.

Um, it, through, through these methods that we're talking about. 

Jonathan Baldock: [00:31:25] Yeah, absolutely. And what we can do is we can actually track, um, so we also have some functionality where we do reverse IP. So let's say, you know, we have employees sharing our content. You're a B2B company. You're trying to land some new, you know, new, big clients, um, when your employees share content, uh, and then let's say, let's say it's something about company.

And then somebody's like, you're you and are connected. I click on that story and it takes me over to your website. We'll do reverse IP lookup and see what company you've come from. And we can see that you shared it. So we can see that you're driving people from these companies to our website so we can see that attribution.

So that's one note. The other thing is sometimes people undervalue their network and they think like, well, I'm not like, like I don't go for lunch with everybody every day. So they don't care. You know what I mean? Like I'm not talking with them all the time that isn't true. Um, you know, staying top of mine is a good thing.

Um, that's the whole sort of, you know, a buyer's journey, touchpoint kind of thing. You know, w we talked on, I touched on earlier in and I'll give you an example, like, let's say, um, Kim Kardashians talks about her new yoga mat. A bunch of people are going to click on it. A bunch of people are going to be all like, oh, Kim Kardashians cut the snip, but no, one's really like, does anyone really act on it?

Whereas if you do a yoga class and your yoga teacher, Is like, oh, by the way, I found this new yoga mat and it's really awesome. And this is why the value of the opinion of my yoga, actual yoga teacher saying that this is a good yoga mat versus Kim Kardashian saying it's a good yoga mat pound for pound.

My yoga teacher is going to sell a hell of a lot more yoga mats than Kim Kardashian. So that's, you know, Kim Kardashian would be considered, you know, like a big time influencer in social, which, you know, it's kind of comical. And then, but the individual like that yoga teacher, they may be called a nano influencer or a micro influencer, depending on like how many followers they have.

But their impact on those people because they have a personal and direct connection with those people. It's significantly more impactful when that person says something. So when you say something through to your network, it's significantly more impactful than any brand or, you know, big time influencer, uh, when they do that.

So even if only, you know, if, if, if, if you have a thousand connections on LinkedIn in a hundred people see it, and three people comment on it. Each one of those people that comment, or like it goes out to their entire network. That's one. And then the second is you're still having an effect because if a hundred people see it in the newsfeed, they think about you.

That's one. And then the second thing is, um, even if it's three people each time that are engaging, those three people, that's a significant impact on those three people taking the time to go, oh, that's cool. I like what John had just did there. And then, you know, like, or comment or thanks for sharing care, or this is telephone.

That's valuable. And then they now, when they do that to everyone in their network's going to see it. So the impact per person is pretty severe. And that, that shouldn't be lost on anybody. And that's where, you know, if you talk about politics, absolutely. Right. I don't need to convince everyone in Canada that, uh, that they need to do this or that.

But if I'm just talking to a group of friends, they're going to take my opinion pretty seriously.

Joseph: [00:34:55] By the way, if you're a current user of Debutify or haven't tried us out yet, Debutify version three has been released and now is a good time to upgrade or get started as any. A streamlined user interface along with an ever increasing array of conversion boosting add-ons is waiting for you. So download today for free and start your journey. Who knows, maybe I'll be interviewing you before too long.

So there, there, there, there's definitely a lot here too, here to take away. I guess one thing that I want to do is angle this next question for my, uh, for my peeps in the in drop shipping country is. They're using drop shipping as a means to start a business. And it gives us the ability to build a brand from, from scratch with very little capital.

So considering that, you know, one person is going to start as a one person operation and it could be that way for awhile. Uh, what would be a good entry point for them to start building up some of the social capital early on? 

Jonathan Baldock: [00:35:52] Um, so, uh, again, it depends on their, uh, like what they're focused on. So are you talking about like products and then they order it and then they have them drop shipped in and then they sell through Amazon or something like that. 

Joseph: [00:36:03] Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's an arbitrage is another way of saying it. Um, so it's, that part is, I mean, that's not like the most relevant thing to, to this. It's more about the, the key is these are people who are, can start off with very little money. And so they have, there's a lot of advantages based off where we put our energy.

So in that sense, you know, the ideal way to, uh, to deploy this energy or early on and start building up some of that Goodwill towards the long run. 

Jonathan Baldock: [00:36:27] Right. So, um, well, first off, everything I'm talking about is free. Number one, that's a good start. Um, because unless you buy a platform, like, unless if you have three employees, you don't need a platform like social HP, but if you, you know, if you've got 50 or a hundred or you know, or thousands of employees, this is an ideal scenario.

If we're talking about those solopreneurs and they're starting their new business, Using channels that are free, that are evergreen. So they're always on, this is a great, great strategy. Um, but you know, and making sure you have that content mix. Right? But so like a platform like LinkedIn, you could build a company page and then you can build product pages.

And it's very hard to get Google to index your personal website. Like you can create your new website, unless you're an expert at like, um, you know, feed burner and, and, uh, um, blogging and all the rest to be able to create it. Uh, links and back links. So that way, you know, Google indexes, you quickly, uh, which most people aren't.

So then it's, well, how do you get indexed? Well, most people, if you just type in their name into Google and they've got a LinkedIn profile, that will be the first thing that comes up. So Google index is LinkedIn every single day. Well, LinkedIn just announced that they are going to be, um, their product pages are going to be indexed by Google as well.

So if you want your products and your services, to show up really, really quickly on the web, building out your products, pages on LinkedIn, which are completely free, uh, then Google will index it. So then when people are doing keyword searches for whatever product or service, that's a great way to avoid having to pay for a SEO and, or a great way to avoid having to, you know, invest tons of money in, in your site because you can do it through LinkedIn.

So that's one note. Second on that would be you know, the sharing of the content and building your brand and keeping that strategy going. Um, you know, I don't need to share five stories a day. I can share two stories a week and they're easy to find because most of them are going to be about me because it's only one in every six, we're going to be talking about me or my company.

So the other ones I could just be talking about stuff that's happening in the industry that might be related to my product might be related to the service that could be helpful for people that have connected. So they don't want to feel like I'm pitching all the time. And two, I'm adding some value into their day.

Now I'm staying top of mind. And then when I do talk about my company or my product or my service, they're much more likely to engage. Also, LinkedIn will allow you to invite people to follow so I can invite 100 people that I'm connected to, to follow my company page and my products and services per month for free.

I don't have to pay to add followers as long as they're connected to me. Then when you do company page updates, And you can like, or comment on it. They're all going to get that in their news feed. So now you're, you're amplifying it through your networks. So that's a quick couple of notes. I would say for somebody that's running a, uh, you know, an early business that they don't have a lot of money and they're trying to do it, you know, as effectively as possible, because you want to be able to communicate with people that matter to you.

And usually if you've got a network, um, It depends on what you're selling, but, um, like there's, you know, 740 million LinkedIn members. I don't have to convince 740 million people that my company is really, really good. I only need to try and convince the people that I want to sell to. So if I connect with the people that I'm looking to sell with, and I'm building those relationships and building that network, then I'm now connected with my customers and I'm connected with my prospects and I'm constantly staying in front of them.

Then I've got a great really it's so inexpensive because it's just your personal time. Uh, um, and if you don't have the capital, you've got lots of time. So you may as well invest it in something where, you know, it'll pay off a little bit. 

Joseph: [00:40:11] I didn't even know that there were product pages on LinkedIn. I gotta be honest with you.

And, and what's so great about my particular brand is that I do lean into the remote working space. Um, and you know, as small, uh, small businesses, uh, young professionals. So for me, the kind of products that I'd sell would be exactly where I would want to go on LinkedIn. 

Jonathan Baldock: [00:40:31] LinkedIn is 100% where you should be spending a lot of time and you can build out your product pages, then people can like your.

And follow your products, follow your company, and then you can just provide updates and so on through that. And then very quickly, uh, Google will index you. So that way, when people are searching for that, you will come, you know, Pretty, you know, pretty close to the top, depending on how competitive the space is, where you are, but, you know, it's, it's, it's a great strategy 

Joseph: [00:40:56] Oh any space I'm in, a super competitive. 

Jonathan Baldock: [00:41:00] Well, I'll get into what that means it's a real business. Right?

Joseph: [00:41:03] And feel free if anybody is welcome to use that line, by the way, if they just want a boost, their ego temporarily. So public domain, anybody can use it. Yeah. I, I, I gotta, I guess I want to know a little bit more about, about product pages now that I've got you here.

What I'm thinking is this is something that I would want to write specifically for LinkedIn. It's not necessarily something that I would write on my own website. I mean, I have a blog website, so I can pretty much say anything I want, but to, in order to use the platform correctly, um, is this similar to say, I don't know how familiar with like the affiliated marketing space where, you know, people would just stay there, write specifically about the product and more of like a promotional sense.

Is it more like a sales pitch? Is it just. Uh, coming from a LinkedIn person I'm running from writing on LinkedIn. Like, I'm not sure what tone. I want to take a note at the top about the product.

Jonathan Baldock: [00:41:50] It depends on where you're writing it. So if you're writing a post, I mean, you know, obviously we don't want to be polarizing on a platform like LinkedIn, and we don't want to have like opinions that are going to piss a bunch of people off because then you're going to turn people off from buying from you.

But if it's like one product pages is literally a showcase on a product. So you're gonna, you know, you're gonna have an image, you can put up a video, whatever it is you want, and you can write a product description and then people can follow it and like, and they can endorse it and they can write comments about it.

So, uh, but that's primarily what you put in for that product area. And then you can also create posts, you know, directing people to your product page, et cetera, and then Google will index it. Um, otherwise. And then you're, you're not like you're not posting in your product pages all the time. From a company perspective, you might be directing people to your product pages periodically, but from a company perspective, you're talking about, you know, thought leadership industry news and company content.

And then for you as an individual, you'll do the same ratio where you're, you know, you're mixing, you're mixing up that, that stuff, hopefully that answers your question. 

Joseph: [00:42:54] Well, one, one more, one more element to it that I just want to get clarity on too is. So for me, um, the brand that I'm working on in particular, would I be able to write through the, the, the, I guess the mask of, uh, on behalf of the company or is it still me Joseph Ianni, uh, right away. Okay. 

Jonathan Baldock: [00:43:13] Either way. Okay. Yeah, because you're the company page admin. So you can post on behalf of the company from the company page, or you can write on your LinkedIn profile as opposed. I would say there is something just to quickly note for those that do post on LinkedIn, there's a post and an article do a post don't write an article because articles my experiences, they don't go anywhere, but posts people will, I can comment on it. And I don't know why index LinkedIn is prioritizing one over the other, because I didn't do that coding. And I'm not a coder, but I will say, um, I've, I've done both and posts are better than articles. Articles are long form posts are a little bit shorter.

They're kind of like, you know, mid-length, uh, but, but post work and articles tend to be pretty ineffective. 

Joseph: [00:44:00] My gut reaction to that would be, if I divided a blog post on my own website, I can copy and paste it over as an article, minimal effort. Even if something happens. 

Jonathan Baldock: [00:44:08] Not an article though, you copy and paste it over as a post. 

Joseph: [00:44:11] As a post. Okay.

Okay, good to know. 

Jonathan Baldock: [00:44:13] Or you can do a company page update, and then you then reshare that as your self. So you, you post it as the company, as a company post update, and then you. Go over to your profile and then go to your company page as a member, and then you hit reshare or you comment on it or you do whatever you want.

And then that'll go up to your personal network. 

Joseph: [00:44:35] Well then good, uh, good insights here, especially into the LinkedIn space, which is no surprise because you've been at the company for, I think it was like 10 years. Nine, 10 years. Yeah. 

Jonathan Baldock: [00:44:44] Yeah, it was, it was nine and a half years. Yeah. Yeah. So I think I overstayed my welcome for about four of them.

Joseph: [00:44:50] So I've got you for a, and not that I'm a pathological. But, um, anyway, seven minutes and 30 seconds left and okay, first of all, this is, this is the most tongue in cheek question that I've asked in a long time, but I've just gotta get out of my system. Has LinkedIn ever thought about doing a dating service?

Because I'm not that I'm like. Okay. Cause I really feel like professionals would really want to find somebody like-minded and I don't know if Tinder is the best place for that. So I don't know. I always thought. 

Jonathan Baldock: [00:45:15] I, I will say when I first started people try to use it as a dating service. Like they would find profiles of people that they liked with the photos, and then they would reach out to them and try and start a conversation.

I never did that, but I did hear like women telling me that they were getting approached on LinkedIn and people asking them out, um, and very unsuccessfully. So I don't think it ever, you know, I don't think anybody ever really, uh, you know, was successful at that. But, uh, Microsoft bought LinkedIn, I don't know, whatever many years.

Maybe it's like five or six years ago now. And, um, and when Microsoft bought LinkedIn, um, they started to look at that ecosystem and how they could start to integrate it. And so from a technological standpoint, there's going to be some integrations and things that kind of have that direction and some, some joining of products, uh, to sync it and, and, and better, you know, create that ecosystem.

But, um, I've never heard that being as part of the conversation on the roadmap. 

Joseph: [00:46:10] Yeah, I, cause I, I do remember hearing stories about that a little, a little while ago, because like you and I both have, um, a comedy background. And so some of our connections are probably within the comedy space. So I do remember some of, especially some of the ladies in the comedy scene, if they got into the professional side, they had no qualms about being open about the fact that like guys were reaching out.

This is LinkedIn. This is not a dating website. So like the time and place, right. Yeah, I, I wouldn't advocate for that, but some, I dunno, like some sort of speech. 

Jonathan Baldock: [00:46:37] I can, I can definitely guarantee you this. No woman has ever reached out to me on LinkedIn for the purposes of using it as a dating site. And I also don't know any guys that have that happen either.

Joseph: [00:46:48] Well, I don't know if I believe you, but I, uh, okay. We'll have to go with that. Actually, you know, that's one thing too, that always stuck out to me too, about, uh, being, uh, being contacted on LinkedIn is that, you know, I will get messages. And get kind of, uh, going back to that early disassociation where I'll see a message of like a filmmaker or something say, Hey, do you want to support me on this, uh, uh, on, on this John this journey where I'm trying to do a film about people going camping in side of a valley, and I wish you luck, but I get the sense that you've messaged like a hun like a hundred other people just in the last hour.

So, um, any, uh, any tips. Cold emailing. Uh, if I, if I contacted people in directly, what seems to result in a little bit more of a productive conversation? 

Jonathan Baldock: [00:47:34] Um, yeah, so definitely, um, not going straight at, can you buy something from me? Can you give me money? Can you, you know, like, um, but the one thing I think that's reasonable to ask for his advice, um, because people are professional and if they're an expert in that field, uh, and for example, let's say like, you know, I want to start selling into this space or this part.

I might approach some people that could be potential clients and say, I'm actually starting to look at selling into your space. You could be a potential customer. I don't want to approach you as a customer, but I would love to chat with you just so you could tell me what is the right approach? What feedback would you give me?

You know, how would you know, how, how should I best represent my company to a potential client, like you, one, it gives me the opportunity to kind of have that conversation. And then if they're at the end, they go to be honest, actually, we'd be interested in your service. This would be great, nothing wrong with that.

But also then they will give you some real advice and usually their advice is going to be good. So they'll say like, Hey, and then if you have 10 of those conversations and eight of them are identity. The feedback's identical and there's like two outliers, maybe ignore the two outliers and go for the, you know, the consensus of this is the best way to approach this market.

Now you've got, you've got some real instruction on how to open up a new bid, you know, open up a new line of customers or, or whatever it is you're trying. So I would say that, ask for, ask for help. Ask for advice. 

Joseph: [00:48:56] Yeah. I never, I never would've thought of that, but that seems like a great way. And I wouldn't mind being buttered up that way.

If I'm being honest, somebody sends me a message and asks me for advice. I'd be like, yeah, this, this feels good. And it gives me a chance to practice my own understanding because sometimes we need the ability to think these things out loud, to think these things in texts and, you know, oftentimes we can teach ourselves as we're trying to teach others gives us a chance to calibrate our own thoughts, swirling inside our head.

Excellent. Well, Jonathan, I hated this, but I gotta let you go. Cause I know, uh, you're, you're, you're a busy fella. Um, but I am would be more than happy to have you back on the Ecomonics give a couple of quarters? Let us know how things are going. So, uh, doors, doors wide open for you. I, I appreciate it too.

We haven't even gotten into like the comedy stuff too, which I was hoping we can get to, but we'll we'll table that because, uh, that is going to open up a number of a worm cans. Uh, for those of you who know me know, I love open up a can worms once in a while. So with that, um, let the audience know how they can, I guess, be engaged in the platform, how companies should reach out and where to find you.

And then if you have any, uh, last bits of wisdom or advice, or if there's like a proverb, we really like, feel free to share that too. 

Jonathan Baldock: [00:50:08] Yeah. So, uh, to find me, it's just Jonathan, Beldock that's me on LinkedIn. Um, and currently you'll see that, uh, I'm listed as the founder of glimpse social and that's cause I launched.

Uh, last fall. So we can also cover that in our next conversation. Um, but, uh, but in there, I'm an advisor for social HP, and that's obviously where our conversation is focused today. Um, social hp.com is the, is the product that's employee advocacy platform. That's in my opinion, the best one in the space.

And I know that space exceptionally well. Um, and then, um, you know, if they want to chat or, you know, find out a little bit more about it, I'm happy to answer any questions. And, um, uh, I, I would say my only note on people that are starting businesses and entrepreneurs is, um, uh, I always had the problem of wanting things to be perfect before I did it.

And, and always having a sense of almost like imposter syndrome, like, well, I don't know how to do that, or I can't do it. And, uh, and I would say, you know, you should throw, throw that to the wind and take steps forward and just, you know, slowly figure it out and, uh, and you'll get there. So, don't don't let that stop you.

Joseph: [00:51:13] And message people on LinkedIn for advice as, as we said. 

Jonathan Baldock: [00:51:16] That's for sure. Absolutely. 

Joseph: [00:51:17] Fantastic. Well, we'll tell our audience, I think, uh, there's a number of great takeaways here. One of them is, uh, if you're not on LinkedIn, get on there. Um, it is, I mean, think about, um, I'm guilty of this too, but think about how much time we spend scrolling on Facebook. Uh, how much time we might waste, uh, you know, just going through twitter, just so I can, oh, I hate this. I hate this. I hate this. I like that. I hate this. I hate this, but that alone, I think should compel people to consider LinkedIn, especially if you want to get ahead in the, in, not just in the e-commerce, but really in any industry. So, uh, that's one thing that really sticks out to today, to me, among a number of other things.

So with that, Jonathan, thank you so much. This has been fantastic. It was great to have this finally got this conversation with you after we had talked, uh, not too, too long ago, but still felt like some time had passed. And to our audience, I thank you as well for your participation. So take care and we will check in soon.

Thanks for listening. You might've found this show on many number of platforms, apple podcasts, Spotify, Google play, Stitcher, or right here on Debutify. Whatever the case, if you enjoy this content and want to help us thrive, please take a few moments to leave a review on apple podcasts or wherever you think is best.

We also want to hear from you. So whether you think you'd be a good guest or want to weigh in on anything related to our show, you can email podcast@debutify.com. Or connect with us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, and Tiktok. 

Finally, this podcast is created by the passionate team at Debutify. If you're ready to take the plunge into e-commerce or are looking to up your game, head over to debutify.com and see how it can change your life and the lives of many through what you do next.

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Joseph Ianni

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