icon-folder-black Amazon Entrepreneurship

Kevin Sanderson - Expand Your Market Geography And Take Pride In Your Ecommerce Creation

icon-calendar 2021-05-13 | icon-microphone 1h 5m 20s Listening Time | icon-user Debutify CORP
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Of the many subjects we cover today, at the heart of the episode is a question, are you proud of the work you’re doing? I am, quite a bit even. But can you safely say that you are? What would your kids think? Another intriguing theme that’s cropped up as of late is that elusive bridge between household names and ecommerce, so among a wide array of business and geographical discussion points with my guest Kevin Sanderson, we also get to hear from the household name side and what it’s like to work in the field, it does go both ways after all. 

Kevin Sanderson of Maximizing Ecommerce, helps successful 6, 7, and 8 figure Amazon sellers expand their ecommerce sales internationally.

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Tags: #Ecommerce #E-commerce #Shopify #Dropshipping #ShopifyStore #Entrepreneurship #Debutify #maximizingecommerce #kevinsanderson #amazon #amazonfba

Kevin Sanderson: I would say more than anything, if you're just focusing on moving the ball forward, don't get too caught up and we can all do that of looking at other people in comparison of, this person's been doing this less time than me, but they're way ahead. You don't know their full story. Oftentimes there's more to the backstory than we always knowing often know. Whether they had previous skill sets, other investments, whatever. Just keep putting one step in front of the other and just focusing on improving yourself. 

Joseph: You're listening to Ecomonics, a Debutify podcast. Your resource for one of the kind of insights into the world of e-commerce and business in the modern age. This is Joseph. I'll be presenting a wealth of industry knowledge from interviews, with successful business people and our own state-of-the-art research. Your time is valuable so let's go.

Of the many subjects we covered today at the heart of the episode is a question. Are you proud of the work you're doing? I am. Quite a bit even. Can you safely say that you are? What would your kids think? Another intriguing theme that's cropped up as of late is that elusive bridge between household names and e-commerce, so among a wide array of business and geographical discussion points with my guests, Kevin Sanderson, we also get to hear from the household name side and what it's like to work in that field. It does go both ways after all. 

Kevin Sanderson. Uh, good morning, evening, afternoon. I'm not sure which one it is, but it is good to have you here. How are you doing today? How you feeling? 

Kevin Sanderson: Yes. Good morning to you, Joseph. Uh, it's uh, morning, my time. I think we might actually be in the same time zone. I'm uh, Eastern US in Florida. So I think it's morning, but, uh, yeah. So good to be here. 

Joseph: 10:19 AM? 

Kevin Sanderson: Uh, yes, yes. To synchronize watches. Uh, 10:19. 

Joseph: Yeah. Eastern time is the best time. Easter time is the English language of the time zones. It is. We got New York, we got Toronto. I didn't even know we had Florida, but you should be jealous. This is the best time zone on the planet. There we go. I said it. 

Kevin Sanderson: You're not far off, like, cause I grew up in Texas, which is for the most part in central time zone. And so it'd be like every time, you know, a network TV, they would talk about, you know, such and such will be on at nine o'clock. I always had to be like, okay, no, it's on an eight o'clock cause everything they said was always off by an hour.

Joseph: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. I've I've had a couple of times too where something is being released at like PST. I'm like, Oh, I'm ready for it. Oh, no. 

Kevin Sanderson: Oh yeah, because then you would have missed it. 

Joseph: Yeah. More conversely, I ended up showing like three hours early. It all, it all depends on how bad I need to see the Nintendo direct that day.

So a first question, opening question, it's Ecomonics tradition and also tradition across like, I don't know, thousands of other podcasts. It is for you to tell us who you are and what you're up to. What you do. 

Kevin Sanderson: Sure. So my name is Kevin Sanderson and, uh, I am a full-time e-commerce seller, and I also enjoy helping others in e-commerce. More on the e-commerce side of things. Um, I would say, uh, really my kind of niche in that world is helping successful six, seven, and eight figure Amazon sellers expand into international marketplaces. And I know that there's always that kind of a overlap between folks who are they're either on Amazon or Shopify, you know, some people are, uh, you know, very much, uh, one camp or the other, but there's a lot of overlap because it's kind of hard not to, you know, you sell on Amazon, you want to have your own store if you don't sell on your own, or if you don't sell on Amazon, but you have your own store kind of potentially missing some, uh, sales. So there's a definitely overlap in how, uh, the, the, not really different camps, but like, so there's different schools of thoughts or an e-commerce I should say. 

Joseph: Yeah. Um, I, I looked through your YouTube content and there was definitely a lot of unfamiliar faces, but you did talk to, uh, Steve Pope, uh, AKA the, my Amazon guy.

Kevin Sanderson: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Joseph: Yeah. We had him on the show up quite a while ago and I remember asking him so in my naivete as, so why Amazon is this well. Like half the economy is. Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. Um, but another thing that I find interesting too is, uh, one of the things, one of the cases you had made is that there are different dark, different demographics that people are loyal in, in different ways.

Like you have people who are like very loyal to Amazon. So I think in that regard, there are unique customer bases, uh, to appeal to an Amazon that you just can't really appeal to on, uh, on Facebook. And, and I'd like to dig into why that is. I, a couple of reasons that I would think of is Amazon is trustworthy for one, people know that if they order something, chances are it'll arrive, worst case scenario it arrives a day late. 

Kevin Sanderson: Yeah. And that's a very good point. And one of the kind of rubs a lot of Amazon sellers have, is feeling that they're kind of left out in the company's decisions and there's kind of different ways you could look at that. That same coin is that Amazon, um, has been so customer centric as Jeff Bezos is a famously talked about being customer centric that I think it has brought so many people to the platform to purchase.

So it's kind of one of those things. If there's not people on the platform purchasing, it's not worth selling on, so they've done a good job there. Um, and I think some of it is like, to your point, the trust they've built over time, you know, people have prime memberships and so, you know, they've made it so convenient.

And I want to say that even, um, I dunno if it was trademarked or patented the one click purchase. And so like you literally could just click a button and, you know, as long as you have all your settings in there, stuff will just magically show up at your house, you know, a day or two later, depending on where you live and how far you are from a fulfillment center.

Joseph: Yeah. Well, here, here in Toronto, I think we have, I could be exaggerating, but I think we have six, um, within all within reasonable distance, it has gotten to the point where we ordered something and, uh, and I, and I'm pretty sure it showed up the same day, but conversely, then you will. I think that another fair question to ask is why people don't shop on Amazon.

And again, some of the reasons that I've found is that some of what you've you hear about what goes on behind the scenes and Amazon doesn't stay hidden very well. And just recently we heard some stories about how people have to like manage their bathroom breaks in some ways that are a little bit too ugly for me to really want to get into. But that aside, what have you seen has also been some reasons to compel people, to shop outside of Amazon. 

Kevin Sanderson: Great question. And I think some of it is, you know, people want to, people want to feel like they're working with, you know, the small business owner. So, you know, especially as we're recording this, now we're still in the middle of the COVID pandemic, you know, a year later and people want. 

Joseph: It's been a long 14 days. 

Kevin Sanderson: It totally has been. So, um, but either way, you know, whether it's because you know, the world was already going more and more online or it's just one of those things where, um, that's people are just buying stuff online more because they kind of, they don't have an option or they just, maybe aren't comfortable getting out of their house as much or whatever, whatever reason people are moving more to online.

And so, you know, one of your biggest, most glaringly obvious options is Amazon. Cause you hear everybody talk about it, but at the same time too, there's I think there's also a feeling of, you'd almost rather work with the merchant themselves. And so, you know, I will say this, if you know, you're on line and you see there's, you know, the price is equal or even less on the store itself, purchasing directly from the merchant.

Uh, you're probably saving them at least 15%, you know, cause that's usually the commission Amazon charges. So there's that, you know, that you're kind of benefiting them, but even outside of that, just, you know, sometimes, you know, some there there's, you know, a lot of people that if they were shopping in person, whether fill in the name of a big box store, that's, you know, multinational store or, you know, the little boutique mom and pop shop, there's the people that want to do the mom and pop shop. And oftentimes the Shopify stores tend to be kind of the mom and pop shops of the internet. 

Joseph: That's a, that's a great way of looking at it and to Shopify's credit, they have put out a lot of advertising and a lot of promotional material to try to encourage this because they're, they, they're, they're more than willing to show that a lot of, a lot of businesses have shuttered.

And, um, interestingly, I did talk to, um, uh, a fellow named Aaron Pearson, who he works with local businesses. And I was curious about, you know, his experience in dealing with people who had to face that choice of do they go online or not, and what you did see, um, where a lot of businesses, I said, you know what, that our time is up.

We can't really translate this into an online business. We're not going to go the Shopify route, it's holding new costs. And we have no guarantee that this is going to work. So we're just done. So that, that is one thing I think it's important to keep in mind is that for some people, it, the paradigm has shifted in such a way that business is no longer a worth conducting.

Kevin Sanderson: Yeah. And that's, that's such a good point and that's been happening for a long time. And it's one of those things like, you know, business has been evolving over time. So if you, if you were a manufacturer that wanted to focus on phones with the little, uh, I'm trying to think of the, you know, not, not touchstone, but like way back in the day where the phones had the circle, like right.

Yeah. Rotor phone. 

Joseph: Yeah. Yeah. Very satisfying to use those by the way. 

Kevin Sanderson: It really is. And so, you know, uh, you know, those rotor phones, if you were a rotor phone manufacturer in the late eighties, you would have been pretty much out of business is everyone's moving to touchstone. And if you focused on, I'm only gonna focus on, you know, landline touch-tone phones, the world would have left you.

And so I know very few people that even have landlines anymore. And so, you know, the world's constantly evolving. And so I was right before the pandemic talking to a guy, cause sometimes I go to local networking groups of business owners, and I was talking to a guy who, uh, Um, had a, like a surf shop and so everything and, uh, his store was kind of like surf or, uh, scuba related, you know, cause I live in Florida sort of on the coast.

And so his sales, like the way he was talking about it, just progressively going down every year. And so I was trying to give him some pointers and like he was interested, but I think there was still that fear of kind of like what you're saying of like what if it doesn't work out. And I think for him, he was a little older, uh, I mean, I'm not necessarily young.

I like to think of myself as young at heart, but, uh, he was older than me. Like he probably could have been my dad. And so it was one of those things. I think he was just getting to that point of like, it's just time to retire. And so rather than figuring out what the online world, which is kind of, I think for some folks that, you know, if they had an established retail store, it's like, they're starting over from scratch.

And so I think for him, it was just that like didn't he was, if he didn't want to feel like he was starting over from scratch. And so it was just better to just stop. 

Joseph: Yeah. You know, just when, when brief aside, cause, um, uh, in our, in our, our, our age, um, a lot of it is in our, is our head so much of it is physical, but also a lot of it is mental too.

You have like young souls, old souls. I see myself as like a middle-aged soul. Like the cynicism is starting to work in, but I still have some of that. Some of that optimism, I was going to make a point about that, but I dropped it. So anyways, so I want to get back to your, uh, your, your slogan and, and your it stuck out to me because I, I can't, to my recollection, uh, think of anybody who had used some of the terminology and the terminology and specific is, you know, building a business that you're proud of.

So I'd like to dissect that because I think what people are proud of it, I think there's some things in common, like it's. It succeeds. So that's going to be proud of, but, um, what in your mind do you see as a business, uh, worthy of pride? 

Kevin Sanderson: You know, I think some of it is just something that you lay your pillow or a layer below. Lay on your pillow at night and just realize, you know, you're giving it your best and it's something you're proud of now in the Amazon world, people oftentimes don't talk about the specific products that they sell.

And, um, I'm kind of in that camp myself, I don't really talk about the products by more than happy to talk about tactics and, you know, behind the scenes, stuff like that. Whereas I think regardless of how transparent you want to be about whether it's, you know, the exact numbers or the exact products or whatever the case is, but you know, something that you're at least proud of talking about and you don't want to step away from, I mean, I've, I've known people who have done very well in business and it's almost like they don't even want people to know that they have or had a business.

And so, you know, I think some of it is that, and also in the Amazon world, there's kind of a couple different schools of thought of, well, everything on Amazon is a little gray because their terms of service I think is vague on purpose. And I get it because what they're trying to do is not pigeon them holes, pigeonhole themselves into a, okay, this is what we will allow and don't allow because the world is constantly evolving around them.

So, you know, they recognize that. And so I think they leave some room for error, so to speak. And so that can be a little scary for folks, but, um, really what it comes down to is, you know, those two schools of thought sometimes can be, you know, go more white hat or more black hat, meaning, you know, do things kind of more within the rules of law and other people, what can I get away with, you know, type of thing.

And so I tend to think that, you know, on those schools of thought, you know, if you're constantly worried about Amazon figuring out your IP address, that's probably a problem, you know, because if you can't go to, like, let's say an Amazon, um, conference like this, cause Amazon's done it before they've had a conference. If you would be embarrassed to go to there and realize they might figure out who you are that might mean this is not a business you're proud of. 

Joseph: Yeah. And then all the gates all seal up screaming, then SWAT teams are breaking through the glass. 

Kevin Sanderson: Right? The seller performance SWAT team starts jumping in through the glass.

Joseph: Yeah. Well, I, not that I'm a psychology expert, but I think it does speak to a lot of the human psychology, because a lot of what we do is an extension of, of who we are. Um, one example that I would say is like, if I had a, if I had a shelf of my favorite action figures, which I don't have right now, because they're still in the box, but, or a shelf of books or a shelf of games, all of that is self-expression.

And I think what our business is also a self expression too. So when you have people who lean more towards black hat, um, that is also an extension of who they are. So it. It, it, it, it stands to reason that you allow for, I guess what I see Amazon is doing is that they allow for both sides to push the boundaries of, you know, the, let the white hats push it on their side, let the black guys push it on their side and then impose restrictions when it's logical to do so.

Like, okay, well, you know, we're not trafficking humans here, so we can't do that. That one's definitely off the table. So I guess I can see in, and especially in, in long-term, they're using them almost as a way to test what exactly even Amazon as a whole can get away with. 

Kevin Sanderson: That's a good point. And in back to the, what you mentioned about, you know, an extension, you know, it, it is one of those, and I think this probably answers a little bit more about the be proud of is that I, I do consulting and I have some services or I help folks, you know, with, uh, going international on Amazon.

And, you know, it's always fun to hear people talk about their businesses and you know, it, you, you, you do get the sense of like, this is their baby. And, you know, like, you know, how much, whether it's, you know, they're, they have their own brands and, you know, like, you know what they did to put it together, or even if they're, you know, selling wholesale.

So they're purchasing products from other brands and then selling on their behalf, you know, just like whatever they did to put into where they are now. They're always very proud of it. And so I think that's, you know, it is to your point, an extension of who they are, and, you know, more than anything as we're creating these businesses, as you know, we want to be proud of it and we don't want that seller performance.

You know, people, it's not the same interface that it was, but in the Amazon world, people used to talk about the red flag log into your seller central account, and there'd be this red flag from seller notifications and, you know, people would be panicked and it could be that, you know, you changed your credit card and they just, you know, we're letting you know it could be that, uh, it just had an announcement they wanted to make through that channel, which is not the normal announcement channel, or it could just be that, um, uh, your accounts. It's always that fear the red flag. So anything you can do to avoid the red flag, I think is a good thing. 

Joseph: Okay. So I, one thing that I had that I would have been curious to ask, but like you were saying, you know, it it's in ecom, typical e-commerce fashion. Uh, we don't usually delve into the product specific, which is fine. Um, but I was wondering if you had any case studies that stuck out of some of the people you helped and where they are now. And again, if you go more like the tactical strategic route, that's a, okay. If not, we can always go to the next question, but I wanted to put it out there just in case. 

Kevin Sanderson: Yeah. Great question. I think a lot of it is in general in business and this isn't just e-commerce, it's it's everything. And I think in e-commerce there's so many different things you could do both on Amazon and off Amazon. And it's like, okay, what is it that you're trying to do? But at the same time, avoid shiny objects. And so what is going to get you the best results, the best return on your investment of time, and, you know, in a lot of cases, money, but even if anything, if it's just time, um, I think we all can get guilty.

And I know, uh, guilty as charged here of, you know, listening to podcasts and watching YouTube videos of things that I might one day implement into my business. And then four years later, I'm still like, curious about that topic, but I've done nothing with it. And so it's that kind of wrestling between the two is, you know, what does that next step for my business?

And, you know, I think more than anything, we just got to figure out what is the right move next? I think I answered your question, but if I didn't feel free to. Ask fall again. 

Joseph: It's I think it more speaks to, um, the methodology that you apply to each person that you're talking to is it okay. You've made these moves and now we have to understand what is the next move.

Kevin Sanderson: Oh, gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. And so granted, I always like to give the disclaimer of we're all tainted by our own biases. And oftentimes our biases are, uh, very much in line with, uh, you know, what puts food on our table. And so like for me, I have a service where I help people expand internationally on Amazon.

So, you know, I tend to be very, hey, go sell internationally on Amazon. And so I tend to find for Amazon sellers, they're literally just leaving money on the table if they're not offering their products in other countries. And what prevents people a lot of times is there are some hoops you have to jump through on the front end.

Uh, with like forms, you have to fill out things like that, you know, to register with like the Canadian revenue agency, for example, which, you know, for a lot of US-based sellers is like, oh my gosh, it's a, it's another, it's another government. I, I, I, I can't, it's, it's scary. I mean, it can be a little scary sometimes when you're dealing with other countries and, you know, outside of your own border and like there's their government official looking form.

But oftentimes the people that do the work that others won't do will get the results others won't have. And that doesn't mean that everything's going to work out exactly the way they want it to. But if they kind of use that lens of like, okay, what is going to get me the best return on my time and investment and for where I'm at now and focus on those few moves, that kind of low-hanging fruit, as I say, are going to get the next level investment.

So like, for example, earn the next level of return investment. I should say, like I had a gentlemen who on my podcast recently, uh, who's a former client of mine, full disclosure. So some people might say, well, you know, of course you're gonna bring on the best case studies. I'm like, well, I just brought him on because you know, I brought him on because he was a recent client.

And, um, this is a pretty good case study. And there were some things that didn't, he was very public about. It didn't work out well, or it took a long time to get resolved. Like, uh, Amazon had flagged some of his products for being, you know, wasn't pesticide. It was some other potentially hazardous thing.

They wouldn't let him based on US law wouldn't let him launch in Canada. Although his products are selling in the US with no problems. So it was like one of those, like the algorithm was having trouble figuring out his product. Eventually it got resolved, but even around those launching him in Canada, UK, and Australia, he was getting, I believe it was 40% increase on a sales. And he's a seven figure seller. So to get 40% increase in sales by just offering his products for selling other marketplaces. And now that it is best products that weren't able to sell in Canada, we'll be up and running. I mean, that will be an even higher number. Most likely.

Joseph: I, I want to, um, ask about the, the strategy here, just cause there's one thing that sticks out to me that I would like to demystify. So, um, but I noticed lateral doesn't come up as much as much. And I think a lateral is important too. It's about expanding sideways. Um, Which is a form of growth, but it's not the same thing as a vertical. What I'm hearing here is that I can expand, uh, laterally into Canada or into Australia. Uh, and then from there, then it creates new verticals, which overall increases the potential returns that I can get. What I would wonder if this is even possible is if I could be spreading myself too thin. Um, and I might actually, uh, be lacking in my ability to expand, say, in the States.

So how would I again, this is a product by product. So it's a little hard to ask this one, but how would I identify when I've reached my peak in say the States and then want to branch out from there? 

Kevin Sanderson: Yeah. That's a good question. On this one a lot of folks really wrestle with is like, when is the right time? I remember one time being in a mastermind and the person facilitating it.

So they told me you shouldn't be selling internationally because you're not big enough yet. And I'm like, what does that have to do with anything? So I started selling internationally. I had one product and it had a handful more in the hopper that were being made. So there's only one launched and more were coming.

And I have not looked back and regretted since. And the clients I've worked with have pretty much all told me that they wished they'd done it sooner. So, or I shouldn't say all have told me if those exact words, but like the feedback I've gotten. If I were to say on one side, I wish I had waited versus wish I had done this sooner. If I had gotten one feedback either way or the other, it's pretty much all been, I wish I had started sooner because at the end of the day, all you're doing is taking the same products and offering them. So with Amazon, it's a matter of there's only. So how many impressions for certain keywords?

There's only so much it's because Amazon is not a demand generation platform. So like on Shopify, for example, there's a lot of things you could do to create demand for your products. However, that is a completely different skillset for the manifesting of demand that you have to do on Amazon. So yeah, we're going to hit a ceiling pretty quickly for the products that you're selling now, Amazon to say, okay, I. I have achieved all the impressions I can do. Maybe I can find another keyword on Amazon that I can target that might get me when you really start breaking it down. If there are these long tail keywords, what are you going to get? Like another two, three sales a month out of this keyword? Like it's not going to be huge things that move the needle unless you're offering more products because at the end of the day in e-commerce, it doesn't matter if it's Shopify, Amazon, whatever it's about having products to sell and people to sell to.

And so Amazon gives you the products or sorry, give you the products to sell. They give you the people to sell to, but at a certain point, even as massive as Amazon is, there's a limit to how many people are looking for, um, dry erase markers, just because they're in front of me, um, at a certain time period.

So if it's really dry erase markers, you know, there's more people looking for dry erase markers in Canada. And the UK, and this is a gross over simplification, but I do this on purpose because I know a lot of times people will, over-complicate it going into the UK or Canada to sell a dry erase markers when you're, when you're, once you're launched seller central, the backend platform of Amazon, uh, really the only difference is the money symbol might look different. The mechanics are the same. 

Joseph: Yeah. And, and that's, I, there's a bunch of great points there. And the one that sticks out to me the most, the most resident is that demand can completely change depending on what country like it here, here in, in Canada. Uh, I, okay. Now I just thinking about dry eraser, uh, markers and specific, like depending on the weather patterns, there might be more tasks to do on a day-to-day basis. Like in the wintertime we got, we got snow shovel, we've got. So for us, it was actually very practical to get a whiteboard, put it on the, on the fridge and just write down, like we know what, what mess from nature do we have to clean up this day? So I, I, again, you're just, you just put on an example, but I can, I can see it. There's actually some truth to it. 

So, uh, okay. Uh, so shifting gears right now, I'm going to update, uh, w the audience is not that there was much to update because I'm a rather slow going at this, but I have my Shopify store. My product is ready to sell. Um, right now I'm just working with my a three PL just to start getting product into their warehouse so that they can ship at a rate.

That's at least more comparable to Amazon and not 60 days, but I have zero presence on Amazon right now. And again, the audience understands my, now that as much as we can accomplish now, there's a lot more to accomplish by checking out a person's content. But as much as you can, uh, give us the rundown now, what are some of the initial steps that I can take to be ready to sell on Amazon and maybe some precautions to, uh, that I can take just to make sure that like I'm not in over my head.

Kevin Sanderson: Yeah. That's a great question. And so if let's just say someone's already selling on, they have a Shopify store. Um, I would say if you're going to sell on Amazon, even if it's just a small portion, send some of your products into Amazon to do FBA. And so I think in the Amazon world, people get really, uh, excited about tactics and the latest hack and loose, whatever.

I mean, at the end of the day, have a product that people want to purchase and solves, whatever problem need. They have more than the money in their wallet or bank account. And so as long as you can achieve that, then you're going to be fine. Don't get too caught up in the latest. I don't want to call out too many, uh, uh, what's the word I'm looking for too many, uh, tactics that have been out there the last few years, but if you're, if you're in the Amazon, you kinda know some of these things where it's like, if the justification for um, doing a certain tactic or strategy is they'll never know, that's probably a red flag that that might not be some direction you want to go because other people that do well at it and never get their accounts shut down. And people that do everything totally by the book and to get their accounts shut down for whatever reason.

Yeah. But you got to look at it from a risk standpoint, risk reward standpoint, and you know, it's one of those things. If you're going to launch on Amazon, learn PPC, that is that's going to work all the time. And maybe the exact PPC things might evolve and change. But like, if you can get your, if you can accelerate getting your product in front of people, you're going to do better off.

And so I am a big fan of just keep pushing forward learning. And getting better and don't worry, it's people, some people worry too much about launching and they do all these giveaways and refunds and all this rebating stuff. Like just focus on getting your product out there. And don't worry about whether or not you're on page one or quote unquote, your keyword.

There's going to be all these other keywords. People are going to look up and find your product. And so if page one of a certain keyword is very competitive, but you're still making sales and you're profitable and you're happy. Don't worry about it. Don't get caught up too much into some of the peripheral, more vanity type stuff I would say.

Joseph: And going back to what I was saying about not when I be in over my head is that I wouldn't mind a smaller scale operation to start just so that I can start getting into the muscle memory, understand how it works, uh, address issues. If I can, if I can solve a problem once now, it might solve the problem a hundred times when there's 10 times that many customers. So I wouldn't mind that one bit, this is totally for products it's sent to, uh, FBA and we're we're drop shipper country here on Ecomonics. And I, I guess I don't have a clear idea of like, how exactly, I don't know to me that might mean I'm overthinking this. Maybe it's very, as simple as like go into my ali express a supplier and saying, okay, I'm going to order a bunch of these. Can you send them to Amazon or which has already incurred costs. So I'm just not clear on like, exactly what's, um, how to add, to get the product to them and how to decide what product, uh, fits that particular, uh, flow of a business. 

Kevin Sanderson: Yeah. Great question. So what you would do is you would look at this product you're selling like, okay, is this your own branded product, or is this something where there's a brand that's already selling it?

And you're basically, uh, going to be offering it on an existing listing. And so the way Amazon truly was originally built was for if I'm selling, um, expo dry erase markers. And I have packs of 10, I go on the pack of 10 listing and I offer mine. And what we're doing essentially is sharing the buy box. So the buy box in Amazon terminology is essentially the add to cart button.

And so most people are just going to pick whatever is in the add to cart. They don't look in the other sellers selling it. They don't even look at, see if there's other sellers selling it. They just look and say, oh, I need an expo markers. And then they purchase it. And so if you want to go the route of selling someone else's product, you want to figure out like, okay, what are the strategies to get the buy box?

And a lot of that is like price, competition. Uh, one of the challenges sometimes could be a race to the bottom. And so you don't want to too much jump in the race to the bottom. I'm not the expert on that. I know there's a lot of people out there that are very good at the buy box and the rotation of the buy box.

So if you're competitive with the other people I'm selling, you know, it's kind of Amazon just rotates the whoever clicks on that listing and who gets the buy box. Then if you're going to have your own branded product, now you're going to need to worry about the listing. Copy the images, the advantages you pretty much are going to get the buy box.

Um, as long as you don't have a, as people like to use the term Hijacker, which is a whole other different issue, I wouldn't worry too much about that, but really what it comes down to is just figure out is this a listing you have to create? What are the things you have to do to create the listing, or if it's an existing listing, what do you have to do to get the buy box? Like those are kind of from a very simple standpoint, going back to the, have something to sell. That's what I would be looking at. 

Joseph: Yeah. I, I, that's something that I would want to look into more of myself is just the strategies to get into the buy box. Um, it's, I can't quite think of like a, an ideal analogy for it.

I don't know. I'm just saying like a basketball team where everybody's competing to get the shot into the hoops, all about positioning and, uh, yeah, it's definitely a lot to unpack there, but, um, that's something I'll look into myself. Now, one of the videos that I checked out of yours, um, you had showed the, uh, the French press and you were the point of it was, is that this was something that Amazon was selling like natively. This was like an Amazon branded product. Yeah. And, and I wanted to touch on that. And if you don't recall, like every, a different video, that's fine. But the point of it is to ask about the potential to compete with something where Amazon themselves have a brand new product.

And so they, they would lean preferentially towards their own product and neither you or I blame them for that. Um, but is it even worth trying to compete with them and what would be some of the reasons why a consumer might, uh, ignore the Amazon branded one, especially if they're a prime shopper. So it seems to me that seems like a losing battle, but I wonder if there are any methods to actually go head to head with Amazon themselves.

Kevin Sanderson: Yeah, I think my opinion on this one's kind of evolved a little bit over time. So there's a couple things is going back to the, are you selling your own branded product or are you sharing a listing with other sellers? Now a lot of people in the world of sharing the listing with am, like if Amazon is a seller on a branded product, like it's not, their brand is someone else's that oftentimes people in the more wholesale world will stay, stay away from those products because Amazon has all the data.

Now, whether you're always competing somewhere, whether you're competing for the buy box or you're competing for someone to click on, um, your product for the, uh, like when they go to a search page and search French press coffee maker, for example, um, let's just say they you're, you're now competing on the search page for someone to click on it.

So when they click on the listing, you're the only person on the basketball court, for example, but now it's, they're trying to decide it's on the search page. It's almost like whose team who do they want on their team type of thing. So it's like, they're deciding like, okay, which product looks like it meets my needs.

And it's a variety of factors. Sometimes it's the reviews. Sometimes it's the price. Sometimes it's the images. Sometimes it's, what's in the title and different people are going to be, uh, influenced by different things. And so, yes, Amazon might have an Amazon basics coffeemaker, or sometimes Amazon has other brands you don't even realize are Amazon.

Um, but I would say it's one of those things that people have gotten to be very worried about having their own product to Amazon. Like, especially if it's a very specialized product, the Amazon's going to take that data and rip it off, so to speak and sell almost the exact product. Well, here's the thing, whether it's Amazon or other sellers.

Everything in Amazon world is hiding in plain sight, but you know what I mean? Like it's, as long as someone knows to look for that keyword or that type of product, they can find almost all data, they would need to sell it. You know, it would be able to find, uh, there's tools to figure out what it's ranking for like what keywords that product is ranking for, what the approximate sales are based on the best seller ranking.

So there's all this data. So yes, an Amazon probably has even more data than what we can find. Um, well, I'm sure they have a lot more data than what they'll share with us. Um, but most of what we need is publicly out there. So it is one of those concerns that I've heard people have over time of like when they have their own product, the Amazon's gonna rip it off.

But I will say this Amazon has been beat up in the press. There might've even been a Washington post article about this don't quote me on this, but like if it was in the Washington. 

Joseph: That seems to be like a stretch. But maybe. 

Kevin Sanderson: For those who don't know, Jeff Bezos, the founder of Amazon is also the owner of the Washington post. And so some, some mainstream journalism article had something about how Amazon is kind of ripping off third party sellers products. And I've seen that derivations of that article over time. And I want to say it might even have gotten kind of on Congress's radar in the US so there's been talks, whether this is going to go anywhere or not about breaking up some of the tech companies.

And so I think they're starting to be a little bit more cognizant of that, of, you know, more than half of the sales and Amazon are third-party sellers. So it's, it's almost like Amazon. I don't want to use the word there. Selling on our turf because still Amazon's turf, but their home field advantage is dwindling over time when it comes to the amount of sales. I'll just say that. 

Joseph: Yeah, this reminds me of a, I don't want to take too long on this, but it reminded me of this, um, documentary maybe possibly you've heard of it or seen it. It was called a beer wars.

Kevin Sanderson: Don't know if I've seen that. 

Joseph: It's quite a few years old and they just cover a few different, um, uh, breweries and, um, and the difficulty of going up against, um, the big corporate breweries and one of them, uh, she had, uh, she was from the corporate world and she had made this beer that also was caffeinated.

And it was a to her description. It was this euphoric feeling of being like, kind of up, but also kind of down at the same time. And it was just like a really interesting group. And what ended up happening was the larger breweries had. I dunno, parallel thought. Maybe, maybe they saw her idea and they took it and they started selling it and it was easier for them to sell it rather than her.

And it just put a huge strain on her, on, on her FA on her family. And, and I feel for her, and by the way, it's helpful to hear stories like that because it does make us remind us that, you know, we want our root for the underdog. We want to support. I would rather support her and support the others. Um, two other things to, to raise about this.

One of them is that. And another story too, I'll tie all this together. I promise. But like, I remember when I was like getting into, um, getting back into like a comedy again, it was, it was Dane cook that got me back into it because he was, he was, he knew how to use the internet to his advantage. And we have is you have these people who have like mass appeal, I call it like the McDonald's effect. And, and I think mass appeal is important because it. It does that demand creation and it gives people a chance to develop their taste in the first place, which can then flow that market into more niche, um, uh, services, like more niche comedians, more niche, burger places, more niche, brewers. So everything has its place in my opinion.

And I, I, myself, I, I, I would hate for like an original idea of mine to, uh, be subverted by a larger company, but I could still use it to my advantage. I could w with, with my advertising, with my storytelling, I could make my product seem like the superior version of that, because there's more passion put it on a personal level.

Kevin Sanderson: Yes, completely. And there's um.

Joseph: So we'll say just very briefly, Dane cook is a very passionate man. I didn't want to take that away from him. 

Kevin Sanderson: Okay. Okay. Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. 

Joseph: Yeah, I'll say that about him. 

Kevin Sanderson: But one thing I will say is when we say going up against the big corporations, they can't compete at the same level, having worked at large corporations just to get small decisions made can sometimes take years because everything is a wait and see.

It's, there's really no incentive to take risks at a large corporation. It's all about, uh, in a way kind of preventing worst case scenarios and both at the corporate level, because you know, they have all these employees. And so all these like kind of, uh, black swan weird situations can happen. Um, you know, if it's a one in a million and they have, you know, all these transactions happening every day, then a good percentage of them could be really weird, uh, outlier events that could be, you know, devastating to the company.

Whereas you don't really have as much of a concern about that when you're small and you can just make the decisions and you're not as worried about what your bosses bosses, boss will think this person that you probably don't even know who they are. Um, but you know, you're not as worried about the chain of command and how is this going to be?

Like, there's not as much worried about perception internally. It's more worry about perception by customers. And so there's more you can do to pivot and do things. And so you can be nimble and agile. So some of the things that are, um, harder for the small business owner are also their strengths. And so, because you're not as big, you can do a lot more things more quickly, and that can be a strategic advantage.

And, um, you know, when you really look at it, a lot of the big companies, like I was actually just thinking about this the other day that I want to say like 25 years ago, the largest company in the world was Mitsubishi. How often do you hear people talk about Mitsubishi? Like, I think they still make cars, but like, they're, they don't just make cars.

Like they make other stuff, but I don't know that they're as big of a company as they once were. And you know, every Goliath will meet it's David. And so with Amazon, when you look at them like there's graphs that you can look up online, we'll show like the percentage of sales of third-party sales versus Amazon sales and third-party sales on Amazon have, you know, beat first-party sales.

In fact, Amazon success in Jeff Bezos has said in interviews that the marketplace meaning third party sellers, um, was one of the three best decisions he'd made along the way. And so I think deep down inside, they recognized that, you know, the smaller companies and kind of aligning themselves with the smaller sellers, smaller companies is what made them big.

And look at Shopify. That's exactly what they're doing. Just different angle. 

Joseph: Mitsubishi. I wouldn't have expected them. I mean, I would expect them to be big, but I wouldn't expect them to be like the number one company. Okay. 

Kevin Sanderson: You can look it up. I want to say they're hit number one in the fortune 500 awhile back. This is like in the nineties, feel it, feel free to fact check me if I'm wrong and I stand correct. 

Joseph: I trust you on that one. It sounds like it's something that sticks out so much that it, uh, so let's, uh, not, uh, dwell on that.

I wanted to ask about, this was another piece of content from your YouTube. It was about a product invention. And I just wanted to like run this past year because there was something that stuck out to me and, and maybe I miss, uh, and understood and misinterpreted it. So a product invention is, I mean, a, somebody can like build a product from scratch, which my previous guests, uh, Keya James. She built a product from scratch and now our product is available at Walmart. Totally doable, difficult, but doable for her. Her story was, this is something that she needed and specific for herself and for her, uh, for infant. So she had solved the problem for herself and she had shared that with others.

And other people had started asking for their product. And so the demand just unfolded naturally. So really the business world called to her, I think. Um, but there was another version of invention. And this is the one that I wanted to clarify, which is where somebody can say, find a product in a foreign market.

That is the inventive part is trying to figure out how it might work in a domestic market. Uh, so if somebody finds something in Japan and it's, it's a success there, but it's not a success here. And the challenge is to try to figure out how to make it work here. Um, did I, am I clear on that? Or was there like an element to that that I missed? 

Kevin Sanderson: Totally get it. And you know, it comes to, there's very simplistically and I don't know who coined this Russell Brunson or somebody out there coined this term of like search traffic and scroll traffic. Whereas, you know, people looking for something specific versus people who are just, you know, scrolling around the internet and something catches their eye.

And oftentimes inventions can do that because, Oh, that's new, that's fresh. I never thought of that. That's a good idea. Now, whether or not that turns into commercial success, who knows, uh, depending on the product, but if you have a product, Amazon is very much a search based platform. Just like Google is a search play's platform.

YouTube is a search based platform, places like, uh, Facebook and Pinterest and Instagram, or more scroll based. Like you're just looking through things to see what catches your eye, what your friends are doing. Um, all those types of things. And you know, whether there's ads or, you know, companies, you follow, uh, you know, share something with you.

And if it seems new and exciting, sometimes that's more shareable. Whereas when you need the expo markers, you just go and you search dry erase marker. 

Joseph: I would like to make the case for YouTube in specific is that I think YouTube is more hybrid. Uh, because of their algorithm, often I can end up scrolling and based on my previous activity, they will recommend things.

I think a lot of the, the search functionality would actually be more in the Google search engine because they bought YouTube. So if I'm looking for, for answers, it's like, by the way, which is what I did with you. 

Kevin Sanderson: Right. 

Joseph: Um, what I searched, I searched Kevin Sanderson and I, uh, and I go to the video section just to see if you had, you know, uh, what, what were some of the verse videos I'd come up just to try to like, I get some content.

So I think the other, uh, I w it was, uh, I can't remember the name of it, but it was like a manufacturing podcast where they're, they're opening like they use like a power saw or something like that. My retention isn't perfect. Yeah. That was a, that was the first result. Uh, although we do know that the results do change based on proximity. So yeah, it changed whether I'm sorry, I got a fire up my BPM log into Singapore and see how things change. Yeah. 

So, um, th there's definitely a lot there to, uh, to, to absorb and to, and to take away from, and I'm very grateful for that. There was a couple of other like, well, actually here's one that I'm just like, uh, definitely curious about, which is like your experience working at Disney.

Uh, you'd been there for eight years and just a brief story about myself is that the longest job that I had ever had was, uh, my freelancing as an editor. Uh, it only lasted that long because I was my own boss and even that's pushing it, but, you know, fingers crossed so far so good with this position.

Sometimes it's my fault. Sometimes it was the company didn't like me. Sometimes it's half and half, but I have yet to be able to really hold down a position for like more than two years, uh, other than the one I invented from scratch due to that fact. So some of that is, I, you know, I'm, I'm, I am interested in how, uh, the span of eight years, how that formed like a chapter of your life to be such a significant chunk of it.

And, uh, otherwise I just love to hear like some of the, some of the main takeaways and, you know, what's coming. What can with you that I need the new skills come with you outside of, uh, outside of working with the company. 

Kevin Sanderson: Yeah. Great question. So Disney was one of those things I interned there twice when I was in college. Um, and there was kind of a lot of serendipitous moments where I was able to get a job as a manager at one of the theme parks, um, straight out of college, which they didn't normally hire people straight out of college, but there was a little bit of sometimes literally being in the right place and knowing the right people.

Um, one of the internships I did was at the, they call it the casting center cause everyone's a cast member. And so it was where they do the recruiting. Um, so I got to know some of the recruiters that'd be responsible for hiring the jobs that I was looking to get into. So there was, uh, some of that. And so one of the nice things is about Disney is they would move me around about every two, two and a half years.

And so in the eight years I was there after college, I had theoretic, uh, I think my title might've been the same mostly, but the job I held and where I held it and you know, who I was working with was change, you know, it was four different places. And so that keeps a little bit fresh. Um, they, as a company were very, they did a good job of keeping people safe.

Like there's a lot of quote unquote, lifers that work there, um, who, you know, they have no desire to work anywhere else. Um, I was just starting to see like, okay, going back to things change over time, just because something was a certain way in the past doesn't mean it was going to be that way forward. I was coming in from like a very operational background and, you know, managing restaurants.

And that was what my degree was in, was in hospitality management. And I thought that was the direction I wanted to go. I was starting to see more and more restructurings of kind of flattening the hierarchy. And so that meant, uh, there'd be less for me to go because they were starting to move to more and more decisions weren't made by operational people, but by engineers, I mean, I get it like as a company you're always looking at what's the next level of efficiency. And so for Disney, the theme parks were all there. Like they haven't built another theme park in Florida since 1998. And so it's two ways to grow the business top line and bottom line.

And so, you know, they're always looking for ways to get more sales, but they're also, and every company is looking to get more ways to get more out of the sales they have. And so some of that is, you know, operation and with technology, operations are constantly changing. So maybe you don't need as many frontline cast members to operate a certain area because maybe technology does certain things.

So you need fewer people to manage it. And you fear people, the managers, the managers, whatever the case is. So I was saying there was going to be less opportunity and I needed to potentially leave. And, you know, it's one of those things that I've made a few decisions over time. And I ended up being very glad about it because, um, sadly Disney has had to laid off a lot of people because of, uh COVID um, they're bringing people back, but even as we record this a year after they had to close down, I mean, there's, I know personally because, you know, I know a lot of people that are still with the company, there's people that have been on furlough for over a year.

Like they're not in the number of people that have been laid off. They're just kind of in limbo. Like they're not getting salary, they're not getting paid. They're not getting benefits. They're just. They're acquiring more time with the company, I guess, is a benefit, but so it really would, it goes back to sometimes what seems safe in the moment isn't necessarily safe long-term.

So this is the thing with entrepreneurship is that entrepreneurship from minute to minute can feel a lot more risky than having a job, but having a job, it can all be taken away from you at once. And I had that happen to me one time, you know, after six years with my next employer, because we got bought out by another company and my level didn't exist in the new organization.

Joseph: One of the things that I had noticed earlier on in our conversation is you're pointing out the the advantages of being, uh, being a, uh, a whippersnapper versus being goliath, and that the decision making process, um, is protracted and slow and careful. And what I think is going on here is that entrepreneurship, um, it calls to people who really are capable of making decisions to a certain capacity and it wants to provide an environment for people to, to, to reach their, their limit and then to be able to push forward. And so working with a company can, uh, especially when as largest as Disney can severely limit a person's ability to make decisions. So I was wondering if your point earlier, um, had to do with, uh, your, your experience eight years, one company, six years in another company.

Uh, did you feel like you could have made more, uh, decisions within the company? Did you feel like you had more agency, but it wasn't given to you? 

Kevin Sanderson: That's a good question. And you know what, and there's probably a lot of things I could have done fully disclose. I could have done a lot better in how I manage situations. I was still kind of young and immature and in my, uh, process and sometimes afraid because you know, the reality is not making a decision often times is a decision. There's oftentimes probably a lot of decisions I could've made. They did not make because of fear of how it would be perceived and that, but that is the general cloud hanging over everybody in a company, even if you're the CEO, how is that going to be perceived by the board or the shareholders?

You know, if you're on the board, you know, what are the shareholders who could vote me out? Like, what are they going to think if you're one of the shareholders you're worried about like, you know, the market and like all these other things, and should you sell your stock? And so like, there's, there's always somebody.

And so it really, in every situation, there's always some worry about something. And so I think, you know, going back to they, they do kind of give you some level of decision-making ability and sometimes it's hard to know what that is. And so, you know, it's oftentimes this, this box and there's people that are very good at learning what is their little box? How do they, I actually had a, a boss of mine in one of my corporate jobs. I won't even say which one, but, uh, basically he used to talk about the white picket fence that outside of now I was within his white picket fence, but he would always talk about that when it came to the people outside of the white picket fence, all they needed to see was the, the shiny white picket fence and anything that was a challenge would be dealt with within the white picket fence.

And so sometimes it's hard knowing managing your white picket fence that you're trying to show within that white picket fence to the people above you. And so that, that can be the hard part is that it stifles a lot of creativity within companies, but at the same time too, you know, people say, if you don't have those rules in a big company, it can be hard to manage people and people start doing things and saying things and like that could get you as a company in trouble. And so it's this balance and I don't know what the answer is other than I like kind of just being in charge of my own destiny. 

Joseph: Yeah. And, and that just goes back to, um, my, my, my original thesis for this, which is that, you know, different, different minds, excel in different environments.

And I even, uh, I, for one, I actually take a lot of comfort in, uh, there being large companies because I like them. Cause there's a lot of people who you, you, you throw them into the deep end and, and make them run their own business. They're just not going to do it. It's just, it's not within their, their, their capacity. Uh, whereas one pattern that I've seen, and this is a pattern that I relate to personally, is that the system will push people out. Um, it, I am in my history. I have tried to fit into it. And it, and it just, and it just rejects me. Like, I'm like I'm in an organ and I donated organ that just doesn't fit with the blood type.

So, you know, there there's different environments for different people and, and that's something that I just personally take comfort in. So with that, uh, I, I did have one other, uh, quite well actually multiple questions, but, um, one of them that I wanted to get you to run past us real quick, we have, we talked about Amazon.

We talked about shopify. We talked about, you know, Facebook's w we talked about quite a few platforms, but there's actually a few that don't come up that much. Uh, for instance, jet. And that's I've, we've never talked about that on the show. Um, so would you do the honors and, uh, uh, give us a quick synopsis of how, what you're like, what jet is and, well, I mean, I know you're not an ambassador for it, so we usually want to ask this question, it's wearable, like your experience with it and what recommendations you would make for it as a market.

Kevin Sanderson: Yeah. So jet got bought up Walmart and I don't even think it's operating now. Like, I'd be curious if you went to jet.com. 

Joseph: Yeah. I'm going to do that right now. I should have, I should have done that. 

Kevin Sanderson: Well, no, I mean, I have a video. 

Joseph: No it just goes right to Walmart. Okay. Nevermind. 

Kevin Sanderson: That brings up a good point. And so sometimes it has to do with, you know, your time to figure something else out. And so I spent back when I still had a full-time job and I was more starting in the e-commerce space. I spent the equivalent of about a couple months of the free time. I did have to focus on the business, figuring out jet, you know, I needed, at the time I needed like a company or a software platform to be able to pull the orders.

I had all these other things I worked on and it was just, it was too much figuring out, figuring out like, how do I, you know, ship the orders, all this other stuff that I didn't have infrastructure on. And, you know, sometimes it's worth trying these things, but I probably made a few hundred dollars in sales, total, and you know, over time it got to be less and less and less.

So, you know, it's one of those. We got to decide with our time is this at the time people were talking about chat. Now not very many people are, but, um, or less people. 

Joseph: Now I understand why. Yeah, no, it makes sense. 

Kevin Sanderson: No, it definitely makes sense. But at the time, you know, like there was something people were thinking about and, you know, they ended up getting acquired and just kind of absorbed into Walmart. Um, but you know, whether you're trying to figure out Walmart, Etsy or whatever is kind of your next move, you got to evaluate that with what are the other things you could do with, especially with your current skillset and figure out what is going to move the needle the most potentially because, you know, nothing is ever truly guaranteed in business.

Other than if you don't take an action, you will get no results. 

Joseph: Right. And, and even though you put a lot of a thought into it and, uh, and net a couple of hundred dollars, it was still a good experience. And I think to give you a chance to, yeah, to, to go through a lot of your own, uh, your own mindset and methodology, understand how to, how to approach this. So, uh, you know, a lot of our ability to have a positive takeaway really falls in our own mindset and just how we, how we perceive it. Uh, okay. 

So I got two more for you. Um, one of those is just a wrapping question, this one, I'm just going to ask for the fun of it, because I'm always curious to hear about how people manage their energy.

Okay. So you're doing this full time. Uh, you've got, you've got a family, which is a responsibility as well. And I, and I'm just curious about like your, your energy, uh, on a week to week basis. And, uh, if you've, if you can share any tips or pointers on how to like, uh, improve energy and w, you know, whatever you do to, to, to not the, Oh, I forgot to mention.

You're also doing consulting work for others. So you're helping other people with their business too. So you got, um, a fair deal on your plate. So how do you, how do you manage that? 

Kevin Sanderson: Yeah, I think a lot of it was just going back and revisiting, you know, what are my goals and why am I doing them? And that could be a very long discussion just right there.

But I think really what it comes down to is, you know, you always gotta be recalculating what it is you're doing and figuring things out because from an energy standpoint, yes, it's important. You know, you get enough sleep, you eat the right foods, you exercise, you know, you. Keep yourself energized in what you're doing and why are you doing it? I think it would be kind of the simplistic way to talk about it. And probably too much coffee. 

Joseph: Yeah. That's reasonable. I, I, uh, four days I'm recording. I try to avoid caffeine cause it dries my throat out and I think, well, you know, and I got the idea adrenaline running, so I think, uh, I think that's good. But, uh, other than that, yeah. Uh I've uh, I don't know how far I'd have gone without caffeine, so I'll, I'll, I'll leave it at that. All right. 

So, uh, final question. It's usually, if you have any parting wisdom, any advice you'd like to generally give maybe an answer to a question I didn't ask. Something along those lines, feel free and then let the audience know how they can get in touch and find your content.

Kevin Sanderson: Sure. I would say more than anything if you're just focusing on moving the ball forward. No, don't get too caught up and we can all do that of looking at other people in comparison of this person has been doing this less time than me, but they're way ahead. You don't know their full story. Oftentimes there's more to the backstory than we always knowing often know, um, whether they had previous skillsets, other investments, whatever, you know, so never look at someone else's story and try to compare it to yours, whether you're at a different chapter or it's just a different book, you know, is it's, it's less of trying to compare yourself to being the Heisman trophy winner in football to more you're the you're, you're, you're the one who's running the 5k race and you're just running your own race.

And really you're only competing against the last race you made. And so just keep putting one step in front of the other and just focus on improving yourself and that's all you can really do. 

Joseph: Yeah, I think that checks out. And, you know, as you were saying that it reminded me of, uh, even, uh, Jeff Bezos. Uh, one thing that doesn't get brought up as much is his prior experience to Walmart. His prior experienced Amazon. He was a, a wall street investor. So he has he's, he, his story starts a lot sooner than Amazon does. And that's one thing to keep in mind too. So, uh, with that, just, uh, how can we find your web presence and, um, uh, find you on the, on the YouTube. 

Kevin Sanderson: So you can find me on YouTube or the podcast, which are both called maximizing e-commerce. Um, and I share all kinds of, uh, tips and resources for help people, whether it's, you know, growing international businesses on Amazon or just a business that they can be proud of in general. And I bring on all kinds of different guests. Um, many are in the e-commerce, Amazon world. Sometimes they're folks outside of that, I just recently had on Justin Guarini, who is, uh, the, um, he came in. This is a runner up to Kelly Clarkson and the first American idol, but. 

Joseph: Oh, that Justin, yeah. Oh yeah. I remember that. 

Kevin Sanderson: Yeah, I've had on my Congressman, I've had on, uh, actually the former executive vice president of operations at Walt Disney world. I guess he was kind of my boss at the time, but way, way high up. But I tried to bring on different people with different perspectives, both, any commerce outside of e-commerce that I think can help people as they grow. And you know, whether it's in, you know, being more confident, like someone who's on American idol or, you know, whatever the case is. 

Joseph: That's terrific. Um, yeah, I, I can, I can see me checking that one out too. I not gonna lie. I was into American idol for the first season, cause it was, it was fresh and new. And so that I was, I was definitely invested in their story. Okay. So with that, uh, once again, Kevin Sanderson, it's been a blast. I really appreciate your time and, uh, and everything you were willing to share with us today.

So to our audience as always thank you for your participation. It means a lot to know that you are choosing to spend some of your time here. Um, and if you're listening to an audio you're spending half your time here or the other half vacuuming or something, whatever the case is, I really appreciate you being here. Um, a moment of silence for, for jet. All right. And with that take care, everybody we'll check in soon. 

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