Kris Reid, ‘the coolest guy in SEO’, is the founder and CEO of ArdorSEO.
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Kris Reid: [00:00:00] Digital marketing, whether it's Facebook ads or YouTube ads or Google ads, you can measure very particularly, this is how much I spend, and this is where that customer came from. One huge advantage that SEO has overruled those other forms. Those forms, you stop paying, you stop getting. SEO work that you did last year, you get this year and you're going to get next year. It just compounds and it gets bigger and bigger and it's bit like a freight train. It takes a lot of energy to get started. But man, once it starts, it goes gangbusters.
Joseph: [00:00:35] You're listening to Ecomonics, a Debutify podcast. Your resource for one of the kind of insights into the world of e-commerce and business in the modern age. This is Joseph. I'll be presenting a wealth of industry knowledge from interviews with successful business people and our own state-of-the-art research. Your time is valuable so let's go.
When it comes to SEO, I'll admit it isn't my strong suit. I haven't admitted that a ton and will continue to do so until the situation changes. But don't let that stop you from understanding just how significant it is. My guests, Kris Reid, who put the value of SEO in its proper place. Have a listen and see for yourself.
Kris Reid, it is good to have you here on Ecomonics. How are you doing today? How are you feeling? Good morning to you.
Kris Reid: [00:01:25] I'm working on the internet you know. With COVID rampaging around the world. It's, you know, it's never been a better time on my business thing.
Joseph: [00:01:33] Uh it's uh, it's the only really I can think of at this point, it's pretty much the only thing to do that, or I guess, I don't know, working at grocery store or something like that.
God, God bless the frontline workers wherever they may be.
Kris Reid: [00:01:44] But I mean, it's, it's just, it's, it's certainly propelled more and more businesses to be online and just showing how powerful it is to have an internet business. And you internet just growing faster and faster as bricks and mortar struggled.
You know, what's the internet going to be like in 10 years time, you know, the best time to invest in. And it's a business was all 10 years ago and second best time is right now.
Joseph: [00:02:09] And I think it also goes to show to the, the forward-thinking nature of people who got into it. Prior to I myself, I haven't been working, working remote.
I've been social distancing. I think my whole life. So for a lot of people, they look forward to, to going back to being able to go out. I look forward to getting back to making this is not to well, it was running cover for me for the last a year and a half. And, uh, well, you know, the, the clock has taken on that.
Well, let's open this up for our audience. Get everybody warmed up. Kris, tell us what do you do? And what are you up to these days?
Kris Reid: [00:02:40] Sure. So, I mean, I'm hit sitting here in sunny Saigon, Vietnam where it's always hot and sweaty. If you'd like to sweat, this is the place to be. But, uh, I'm not originally from Vietnam.
I'm originally from Brisbane, Australia, and might be able to tell from my funny accent, uh, you know, and I, I studied software engineering at university and there's really two ways to make money as a software engineer, you got to go to Silicon valley and you work for tech startup, or you work in finance. I took the finance route.
I moved to London. Big banks making billionaires more money, which is yeah kind of soul destroying work, but they'd pay enough money that you like forget about it and life was great. Now as getting paid lots of money. Had Europe as my playground. Yeah, I'd go to Paris or Berlin or Amsterdam on the weekend.
Like it was just amazing. My ego was as big as the sun. I was untouchable until the 2008 global financial crisis. And man, it took the banking world by storm. I got my ass kicked. I lost my job. So did everyone. I knew there was no jobs to be had. I went back to Australia with my tail between my legs gum.
Awesome. I'm in my mid twenties and my career is over life sucks. I really didn't know what to do. I being a computer gay guy who had locked myself in a dark room and I built an online game. Not particularly because I knew anything about business. I wanted to be a businessman. I was just building a game to learn some new type of technology.
And then I was like, well, how the heck do you get people to this website to play the damn thing? And so that's when I started learning about SEO, I discovered the secret of Google. You get backlinks, build a bunch of backlinks to my website and I went, wow, that's awesome. And shut off in the rankings, got a heap of trash.
I went, this is, this is loads of fun. Yeah. Cause you can instantly see returns. I wasn't so much interested in the, the money side of it. I didn't relate that yet. I went, where are you? Can traffic go to a website? That's cool. Uh, so, uh, quickly ditched the digital game and I built, uh, an online service to get back onto businesses.
And you know, that led my way into the SEO world and been doing it ever since.
Joseph: [00:04:55] I'm a huge nerd. So I am a huge gamer. Um, gaming is one of my, one of my major passions, uh, you know, anything that starts with Z and ends and elda. I'm all about that. And I just, I just got to wonder what was the game you were making?
Kris Reid: [00:05:08] Yeah, so I mean, being, being, as working in finance, you just generally do desktop applications because if you don't have your systems connected to the outside world, it's really hard to have it.
Uh, and so I really just wanted to learn some internet programming. And so I was, I was learning some new stuff. It was again, based around the heck. Was it called, uh, pimp? Was this like this, this, uh, turn-based very simple strategy game for many years ago. And I had a multi theme of it, but man, I didn't even end up finishing the end.
Yeah, I got into SEO and went, that's way more fun to program that.
Joseph: [00:05:47] I might have actually played this game. To be honest with you, it actually did ring a bell. Um, now I can't substantiate it, but that, that rang that ring a bell for me, or maybe I just made that term a lot.
Kris Reid: [00:05:59] We've got a lot of traffic. I, you know, I, I forgot to even renew the domain name and I lost it.
I checked it out a little while ago and not someone selling the damn domain name. Yeah for many years, but as always more, more business stuff.
Joseph: [00:06:18] Yeah, I, I, I do, uh, briefly have this image in my mind where, you know, you have one group they're playing the game on the front end, they're having, they're having a fun, but then on, on the back end, you know, you're, you're not only working on it, but you're learning all the SEO and you're having like an equal amounts of amount of fun.
And it's not the first time that we've, we, we seen stories where people were like, they'll, they'll play games. And then they'll realize, man, I should really take this, all this, uh, this competitive energy and go put it something, uh, far more productive. Um, when a very, very for guest we had was, uh, you know, it was the Steve Tan of the, of the super tan brothers.
And like they took their competitive mindset. Nah, not look at them. They're, uh, basically running a whole industry at this point. So, you know, a good, good for them, but they're not here today. So I just, uh, there was the image in my head that I wanted to express. And also, so you said the 2008 financial crisis and was that also what they would relate to at that time, which was the recession where they hand-in-hand?
Kris Reid: [00:07:10] Financial crisis. So the same thing really then triggered the next. Yeah. Yeah.
Joseph: [00:07:17] See, I was getting into podcasting at that time. And I had like no money cause I was in college. And so there was like a free podcast hosting service. And I remember they had to post up something and say, listen, due to the financial recession, we actually can't afford to run the service anymore.
So my first podcast I got got out, it's not exactly like a one-to-one parallel with what you went through, but that recession hit everybody even as a college podcast.
Kris Reid: [00:07:40] Yeah. I mean, it took us a good eye-opener to have that you gotta be prepared that the world can change dramatically very fast. And I thought my job was super secure and I was getting paid lots of money.
And why would that ever stop? You know, I was in my mid twenties and every six months I was getting big pay rises. I was like, this is awesome. I'm the, yeah, I'm a superstar. I was getting more money than y'all. I was pretty new out of, out of university on a couple of years. I'd gone from making the same money that you might get at McDonald's to six figure salaries.
And it's like, this is wicked. I ended up saving a bunch of money just because I made more than I could spend. You know, it's like, and going to Paris on the weekend, like that is a hell of a life. And then that can all change in a heartbeat. You know, you need to be prepared for that. You, you don't control the outside world.
And yeah, so it was a good lesson to have earlier in life. And it's kind of made me a little bit more stoic of, you know, appreciate what you have and realize it can all go away very, very fast.
Joseph: [00:08:43] It is, it is possible that no matter how much a person makes they can always outspend, uh, how much they makes. Uh, there was no shortage of celebrities that I can think off the top of my head, who I can attest to.
It does lead into like one of the talking points that, um, we, we can touch on it and I, and I want to get to it, but I don't want to get to it first. It's just about, you know, generating predictable revenue and that I think a lot of your, your prior experience, um, has influenced you to make that a bit of a big priority.
Not only what you do, but also what other people do. But one of the main things we want to talk about today is SEO. And occasionally we bring on SEO experts onto the program and full disclosure to you. If full disclosure to my audience, what SEO is really a weak point. You know, like for instance, when somebody, I didn't, it was Paul Mottley first introduced the affiliate marketing to me that clicked right away because I have more of like a natural affinity for it.
And, you know, I guess like in my perspective, you know, I see affiliate marketing is certainly it's a promoters game. It really comes down to the cadence of the person's writing, uh, uh, to a large degree SEO. To me, it comes across as like a form of programming, but not like coding, for instance, it's, it's a matter of like information applying in the right spot to get the right results.
So for a moron, such as myself, what frame of mind would be a healthy way to envision SEO? So I can go back and listen to my SEO focus episodes and have an easier time of getting it because again, full disclosure, it is really a hard thing for me to understand.
Kris Reid: [00:10:11] Straightaway. It's the best form of marketing on the planet.
You know, you should be doing it. If you think about every other form of marketing, it kicks the pants out of it. Like traditional marketing, all of it sucks. TV, radio. I don't know why people build, uh, you know, super bowl ads, you know, only did it because they're going IPO. They would just want that exposure.
They can't. You measure that however many millions of dollars, it costs to have a Superbowl ad to selling their own milk. You know, it's it, it's just so hard to measure digital marketing, whether it's Facebook ads or YouTube ads or Google ads, you can measure very particularly, this is how much I spent, and this is where that customer came from.
And so that kicks the crap out of that one huge advantage that SEO has over all of those other forms. Those forms you stop paying you. Stop. SEO work that you did last year, you get this year and you're going to get next year. It just compounds and gets bigger and bigger. And it's a bit like a freight train.
It takes a lot of energy to get started, but man, once it starts, it, it goes gangbusters. So, uh, just, just recently I was on entrepreneurs on fire podcast, which only dentists, uh, and we've worked with John Lee, Dennis, which is, was pretty, pretty cool. And man, it sent a ridiculous mental leads to our website, which is, was cool.
And I spoke. So we normally focus on real estate, most of our clients from real estate. And it's bright.
Joseph: [00:11:41] I do have some real estate questions, but we'll get to those.
Kris Reid: [00:11:43] We, you know, the more we have clients that are the exact same, the easier it is for us. You know, if we have a lecture realtor in Naples or last week, realtor in Toronto, it's the same thing.
He changed the name and boom your done. Uh, and so just recently, I've had this influx of old, of these different entrepreneurs. And one thing that's in common is that they don't know how to get clients. You know, one, one woman I spoke to last night, businesses doing four or $5 million, but she it's all through referrals.
And she's like, I don't know how to scale. I don't know what if the referrals stop. There's no predictability. We get a bunch of referrals, then we don't get any. Man that that's the truth of why most businesses fail is that they can't get customers. And if you've solved that problem, man, it makes business so, so much easier.
You know, I'm not the greatest businessman in the world. I screw up plenty of times had a, Hey, just steal $30,000 one time. Right. And, you know, we make a mistake up in there done that, but we have predictable revenue. Yeah. You know, then you live to fight another day and it's takes the stress out. If you don't have financial stress with, with, with work, everything else is just fun.
It doesn't really matter what, uh, so that's what, you know, any form of digital marketing to get you. But SEO is just by far the best return on that know it's that compounding effect. Just beats the pants off anything. So that's SEO in a nutshell.
Joseph: [00:13:11] Well, I mean, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're promoting it.
Um, uh, you're promoting the hell out of it. That's for sure. And. Um, it's, it's, it's a, it's a helpful means to answer the question, a lot of granularity. So a lot that I will be definitely want to go through, but to hear that level of enthusiasm, I think a, it shows, you know, your potential as a marketer, but also just how important it is for our audience to understand that this is a key element.
You do need this for your business. So, um, I guess one thing, because we, we, we, we established your backstory. One thing I would like to hear about, I guess I do tend to ask about, I guess SEO's a history and it's an evolution. So when you were working on using SEO to booster games awareness, how are you doing it exactly? And if possible.
Kris Reid: [00:13:57] And go back then and slap my younger self and go dude, read some business books. I would have taken over the world. If I had my knowledge. Now back then, It's like, it was so easy and I succeeded because it was so easy. You didn't even have to try, like now it's much harder. You know, Google, Google has been working, they have an army of software engineers hundred, hundred 90,000 or something.
The last time I read it, read how Google works by Eric Schmidt. And back then they had 190,000 people and that was six years ago or something. So however many, they go in now and they're constantly working on their algorithms to get it better and better. And what they're trying to do is filter out the crap and get better and better search results.
And the internet economy is just growing at a crazy map and it's fewer and fewer websites that are getting that money. So it's more and more valuable to have a, have a website 10 years ago, you know, internet economy was tiny compared to what it is. And yeah, and Google was nowhere near as clever. It is today.
So it was easier, but it wasn't as valuable. Now it's harder, but it's way more valuable. And that's only going to get more complex and more valuable. So, uh, it has changed a lot, but you know, one of the, one of the main premises that I would go back and tell my younger self is reading fricking business books.
And two books wrapped, dramatically changed my business both by the same author Mike Calloway also worked with and was also on his podcast. He, uh, if he still has ones that I don't know, he's still have fabulous author and those two books, uh, profit first, how to always have a profitable business, which might sound easy, but it's not.
And it's one thing that people can forget about, you know, it's like profit doesn't exist until you take it out of business. You need to take that money. What are you, what are you working for that you need that your money to see what happens with the internet goes away. Um, and his other book called, uh, clockwork, which is about how to build a business that doesn't revolve around you. You know, I'm not perfect about it. Like the business, you know, I, I still grow guys to make a lot of the growth of the business, but, you know, I just took my family away for a holiday for two weeks. Came back in my inbox was not on fire. It was, there was no problems. It was just, I'm going along. And, you know, I'm, I'm working really hard.
I got a new baby I'm on the, on the way. And you know, I, I wanna be able to take time off and spend time with my baby and. Have the business just run without me not having a job. Most entrepreneurs build themselves a job. I certainly did. When I, when I first got into business, I went from, you know, what can I finance get paid lots of money.
Getting to go to Paris on the weekend to having a, having an army of employees that depended on me to give them, you know, get, get their paycheck. And at times, you know, I wasn't taking any paycheck, I'm going great. I get getting paid, nothing. I'm working my ass off. I can't take a holiday. I can't get out because it's like, you you've taken this person's money.
So you open that work, but it's like, now there's not enough money to get that work done. And it's, so you need to go and sell more work to get more money, and then there's no money for that. And there's no way to get out. Cause you still got that guy work and it's this terrible little trap. Many entrepreneurs get into and you've built yourself a prison cell and it sucks, man.
It is really, really stressful. And that's because we didn't really understand well enough of the processes of what we're doing. And once, we unlock the key of predictability by having predictable revenue by having a sales funnel by having predictive man traffic coming into that so that you know, how many customers are popping out each month, man, it just makes everything go away.
All of those problems go away and that that's what any form of digital marketing can do for you.
Joseph: [00:18:08] It's amazing to hear you, you speak to almost this level of like this utopian lifestyle, really where, you know, the work that you're doing is the work that you choose to do so work that, uh, that, that is stills you, that gets you going and get on the way you want to take your family on vacation.
That to me is, is a, is a utopian viewpoint. People still want to work everybody. I think everybody wants to work for the most part. It's just, people want to pick and choose what they want to work. They want to work where their, you know, their passion comes from and it really motivates them to go the extra mile.
I, you know, I'm, I, I'm pretty grateful that I don't have like five passions. And so I was able to, uh, get pretty far on the, on the podcasting and the media one, but where you're saying about, you know, the, this business cycle of expenses, uh, this thought doesn't come to my mind very often, but I think this is as good a time as any to bring it up.
But there is a level of honesty that any freelancer or really any entrepreneur can have about how expensive their business actually is. And then there was an even greater degree of honesty that they should have. Like, I can say that, like, say for instance, I'm subscribing to the Adobe creative suite is a business.
But I don't say that the electricity is a business expense. I don't say the internet as a business expense. I don't say that having a roof over my head as business expense, I don't say having to buy food, all of these other costs that are tangible, but I don't put them on my tax return and what I want to go give it to my, to my tax person.
That is all still something that I have to earn money in order to be able to support. So what you're saying about being trapped in this cycle is, is illuminating. It's really important for people to take a good long look at just how much expenses are really ramping up that if we don't meet them. They prevent us from being able to do our job.
Kris Reid: [00:19:45] Yeah. And, and just to mention those two books again, clockwork really talks about what's your queen bee role. Like the queen bee is the most important bee in the hive, right? Everything else has to support that, that queen bee and that's what your businesses should be doing too, is doing whatever you're good at and outsourcing the restaurant like.
Out of our company makes money, went out doing SEO, work for our clients. Anything else, they're not making the company money. So we outsource payroll. We outsource accounting. We even use a profit first accountant to analyze our books. So just the stuff that you were talking about, we're not professionals at that.
It sounds easy on paper, but it's not. And the video company gets the bigger, the holes. What would the fricking professional doesn't cost the end? Like it doesn't cost a ridiculous amount of money and they know what they're doing. Like you don't have to guess and work this out, which wish wish I should. I put my electricity on my neck.
Let them work that out and stay focused on making money and do what you do. Good. And let, let a professional do what they do.
Joseph: [00:20:59] Okay. So, um, I brought up predictable revenue, you brought it up. And tying it in so far, it seems that, um, using SEO and using this digital marketing strategy, uh, is the key that unlocks that. So I'm going to frame this for my audience, because I want to, I just want to pull any random, you know, entrepreneurial path, uh, out of thin air.
I want it. I actually it's frankly, it's for me too. Cause I'm I got my own Shopify store. So, uh, our, our audience, many of them are running Shopify stores. Um, many of us, including myself, are in the beginning. So there is going to be SEO related to the product, but I'd like to go a little bit further because I also feel that it's important for the brand to have a lot of internal strength.
Um, one of the things that excites me almost as much as a product, which I'm selling right. I'm excited about. Cause I really like this thing. It's also the affiliate marketing side too, is having a blog, going writing articles and promoting other people's product as well, have the affiliate link in there.
So again, coming back to my affinity for it, that's where I feel like marketing excites me. So what I want to know is I'm going to go to, I go to my website after we're this talk and how do I make sure that my SEO is up to speed?
Kris Reid: [00:22:07] So it's, it's not an easy question. I mean, it is difficult. And the short answer is you should have a professional, do it for you.
That's that's the simple way. Uh, for, for instance, we have a client who has a Shopify site and they sell dog products. They're two elderly ladies that love dogs and, you know, they sell dog mittens and collars. You know, you name it, everything related. They got some dog collars, like 15,000. Some people have way too much.
When they came to us, they were, they were doing about, you know, uh, $10,000 a month in sales. And I haven't seen a port from them for a while, but leading up to Christmas, November, I think it was, they were doing about $80,000. So that's, you know, an 800% growth. And that's what you can do.
You know, it's really this. So how we work with any clients was the same process. The first part is understanding exactly who your client is and what are the, what are the ones that are going to spend the most money. And the, the lady I spoke to last night, she is, she does hospitals and well refurbishings and they range anywhere between $50,000 and $250,000.
And she wants more than $250,000 ones, you know, and same with generally generally the higher, the price tag, the bigger, the profit margin as well. You know, we went with a lot of real, real estate people, a lot of syndication companies, I, you know, a syndication company, the minimum investments, usually 20 or $50,000.
And then you'll have accredited investors that invest 500, $600,000. And it's like, well, let's focus on those guys then, you know, there's less of them, but they're more valuable and easier to watch. Uh, so really understanding who your customer is, then you work out, okay, what are they searching for? It's the keyword research that is really, really super important.
And, but people don't put enough emphasis on most web designers. Absolutely suck. I don't understand what they think they're doing. You know, the average website costs 15 to $20,000 and it's a complete waste of money. A website is it's like a business card. You're gonna have a beautiful business card if it's sitting in your desk drawer, it's useless.
You need to be handing it out. Really good example is one of our clients, who is on track to be part of the top 10 realtors in the country. She is a gun. She sold 2019. She sold 53 million in real estate, 2020. She did 158 million. Like that is a massive growth. And she did that whilst having a baby.
Yeah. She had credits a lot of that growth to the work that we did on her website. Only in the second year of her working with us, are we refreshing the website? Cause it looks a bit, shit. You know, a crappy, we didn't build a website for that to start with. Uh, but you know, beautiful websites don't sell things.
That's a word, that's a slogan from one of my favorite marketers, Donald Miller StoryBrand guy. And I like to add on that. You know, he says words, beautiful websites don't sell things. Words, sell things. Those words need to get in front of people, or it's all for nothing is his SEO sucks by the way. Uh, he has a great podcast and that's where he gets, gets his traffic coming from his SEO is terrible.
It's like, are people only searching for his brand name, which is a very established brand right now, which is bright, but he doesn't do any SEO. So if, if don't do listening, give me quotes. But, uh, you need to get there his words in front of people, any website, no matter how crap it looks is going to convert at some level, if it has traffic to it, a beautiful website with no traffic is never going to convert.
So that's where you need to keep your focus. Don't worry about, you know, how beautiful it looks like, worry about getting traffic there first. Then you can work on, on your, uh, well, your conversion rate optimization, your messaging, which, you know, So to tell you how processes work. That's the first step understanding who your customer is, what they're searching for.
Then we do a website audit to see what's wrong with your website and what needs to be fixed. Some things can be urgent. Some things are not, uh, you know, but we need to work out where they are and then we build you a strategy. And the strategy is to go from where you are today, to where you are. The internet is so much bigger than any of our little human brains can comprehend.
You know, some, some search like, you know, a keyword, like how do we invest $50,000, which is a great keyword for our syndicators that are looking for $50,000 restaurants at that keyword has 20,000 searches. Every single. Yeah, your brain can not fathom what 20,000 people look like. And real estate investing has 500,000 searches every month, every single month.
And there's no way you can comprehend what 500,000 people look like it just at Brian's count, work on that scale. And so if you want 10 customers a month or a hundred houses a month, or a thousand or 10,000, or how many thousand it's possible, the internet is so big and there's so many people searching for stuff that it's super possible.
And that's what we do is build out a strategy. How do we get you from here to there? And it's predictable. It works every single time. Another really great book that I read was put 80, 20 sales and marketing by something Perry. Uh, and he has a chapter in there about the power of guarantees. And, you know, after reading, I was like, well, we can guarantee at work, right.
It, you know, you'd follow our strategy. And once every time and met, we've added eight guarantees and one of the best decisions we ever had it, you know, cause it takes, it takes the pressure off the client. Right. What are you going to do all this for me? You're going to guarantee you, it works again. We will guarantee that it works. Because you, and it gives us more control too, because in the guarantee, it's like, you have to do what we say.
You're hiring us to be experts. You let us do what we do. And then we'll guarantee the work you want to do it yourself. Then get out of here. We don't want to work with man. So it gives you much more power, much more trust, and it's fabulous. And Google is working very hard to understand what the internet is about.
And give people a good, trusted search result. If you give Google what it's looking for, it's going to rub what you, you make it simple for Google to understand what the hell you aside is about what it should rank for. And men it's going to feed your traffic all day long.
Joseph: [00:28:51] You know, it's funny. Cause if you think about different ways to figure out what would be a, um, uh, say again, coming back to the drop-shipping country, what would be like a winning product?
Another route to take too is, you know, what are the winning keywords? What are, what are the terms that people are searching for, especially maybe, um, relevant in a certain point of time, like change of seasons or holidays or something along those lines. And so keywords can actually be a starting point to figuring out what need can I, can I resolve, what problem can I solve with a business?
Kris Reid: [00:29:20] Yeah. And so it's really important to make sure you can get Google analytics installed on your site and use Google tag manager correctly. Often we'll, we'll see even big sites like a lab coat agents, which is a massive, so I think 130, 8,000 people in that Facebook community like that massive. Uh, we, we just did an audit with them and analytics and still twice the tag manager is screwed and not tracking anything correctly.
And you want to see where people are coming on your website, what are they, how are they interacting with it? And where are those emotions coming from? You know, we generate traffic from Google, but we trying to report to our customers, not search engine rankings or traffic, because it gives a crack at the end of the day.
You know, if we don't make our customers more money, they don't stick around. We want to make damn sure that they know that those clients came from us because wherever they start. We always want to go, okay, what do we need to hit to double the budget? Because it's way easier for us to work with someone.
That's your one client that's spent 20 grand a month or 10 clients are spending two grand a month. It's a lot more fun and a lot easier to work with one client. And that's what we want to keep doing. You know, how much, how much do we need? What type of we need it for you to double it? And that's what we'll really work towards.
Here's where these people come, came in your CRM, and this is where they converted from. And the more you analyze that, the more you understand about your customers, you know, one thing I really like is sales over marketing, right? It's sales, you get instant feedback, you're on a sales call and you can see what happens and you know, you get the money or you don't, you know, I, and I know if you don't get the money on the phone, You're less likely to get the money because people are, they make the decision right there.
Why would they make a decision later where an e-commerce website is tricky because you don't get to see that person. You don't get to see why they didn't buy. And so if you don't get that instant feedback, it is, you're talking to a lot more people, so you can measure statistical relevancy. And that's where you need a lot of traffic.
Because as humans, we might think we're all unique, but when you put. I seen a group of a million act very, very much the same. So when you have lots of people, you can, you know, measure statistics. Once you go great. A green button rather than red button makes my company that's right. Go up 1%. And when you've got a million people going to website, 1% makes a massive, massive difference in your one-on-one.
So, yeah, I don't know. And where I'm going with that, but that's, that's, that's the power of a great website.
Joseph: [00:31:58] Well, it's just the fun that I have on the, uh, on the job here is I just get to absorb all of this information. And I certainly would like to go to a convention with 10,000 other people, all of them have the exact same tattoo that I have.
I feel like that would be an interesting insight. And it's funny, there, there was a term for it. I'm sure I'll, I'll come up with it later on what I'm struggling to fall asleep, but it's this idea of how individualism. Can actually be accurately represented at scale because you have one person with their own wants and needs and likes and dislikes and fears.
And then, you know, that person runs into the next 10 people. And there's enough variance there that they don't there's, there's some things in common. Like everybody's got to breathe, but it's got to go to the bathroom. But other than that as well, But then you scale out to the whole world and now all of a sudden, all of that traffic is finely tuned.
So each person coming through is actually, well, there's a term for it, which is the avatar. It's trying to figure out who's the avatar and how many instances of this avatar. Our third are, are out there in the world to know, to make my business scalable.
Kris Reid: [00:33:01] Yeah. Understanding your customer advertise so important, you know, and I mean again, that's why I really liked sales because I get to speak to the people and talking about your ideal job. Right? That's my ideal job. I have all the people running the company and they do a better job than me. Anyway, I'm a terrible manager. I hate it. I like talk to people. I like it on my uncles and close the deals.
It's a lot of fun and you know, I've set the company up so that I can do that. And that's, that's my job. And understanding exactly who your customer is. And I can tell pretty, pretty readily whether we're going to like working with them and you know, we're at the size that we get to pick two. It's like, you're not going to be a good fit to like, I don't want to work with you now.
I want to work with someone that has big goals and wants to grow their business. You know, I want someone, when I say, Hey, I want you to spend a 50 grand a month and their eyes light up. They go, hell yeah. They're not like, oh, what the hell? They're just gonna spend 50 grand a month on marketing. It's like someone with big dreams is going to spend 50 grand a month on marketing.
And why, and why not? If you can. Yeah. Cause if you, if you spend a 50 grand a month, you imagine what sort of return you're going to be getting on that. Yeah, yes, please.
Joseph: [00:34:16] So what's the, what's the milestone that a business needs to cross before they can reach out to ardor and, um, it'd be a potential client with you.
Kris Reid: [00:34:24] So, I mean, you want to have some money in your pocket because is not cheap. You know, if it was easy to do, then everyone would be doing it. So the first thing that we do is what we call it. Business growth. And that's where we had to find you a customer avatar. We do,
we follow StoryBrand by Donald Miller. The love, love his book. Read, read it three times, and we follow his process to build your StoryBrand brand script, which that opens really valuable. We do keyword research website, build a strategy, and man, these strategies are super comprehensive. They share everything that you need to do to get to where your goals are.
Uh, and so a strategy like that costs 3000. Which sounds like a fair chunk of change, but, and it's the most valuable part. Like if you screw that up, everything else is going to suck. And if you rank it for the wrong keywords, you got your customer avatar wrong, then you're not going to make money. It's so, so valuable.
And man, I wish I hadn't done it when I started business. It would have. Save me five years. So five years learning the hard way.
Joseph: [00:35:36] Well, you know, I, like I said, you know, I'm, uh, I'm, I'm in the game now. I'm not exactly profitable at the moment to put a charitably. Um, but $3,000 is actually not that great. I that's that's money that I can, you know, I can earn at my job.
I can, I can put the money away and I can actually bring that. It's not, I don't know. I guess I was expecting to like, I don't know, 20,000 or 30,000.
Kris Reid: [00:35:57] Yeah. And that's for us to do a strategy then to interpret the strategy is a different investment strategies. You also keep and do it as you please. You're welcome to fix it yourself.
We certainly hope you absolutely love it. And you want to implement with us. The minimum that we, that we work with is 2K a month. Uh, we're about to increase that just because, because we can end and it's, it's just way more enjoyable for us to work with bigger clients. When we used to work with small clients, you know, they need results straightaway.
In fact, I'll give you a great example. So that e-commerce customer that I've mentioned before, that went from 10 K to 80 K stuff, and they were selling so much of this dog carrier that the person that manufactures the dog. Ask them, who does your marketing? Because you sell more about carriers than we do.
Uh, and they contacted us and they're only a small company and they said, Hey, you do an awesome job with their marketing. Can you handle ours? And their budget was really small and we're like, okay, sure. But with a small budget, it's going to take time. And she needed results right now. And we've like, she was with us like three months or something.
I was like, wow, you've gone. Like the queue adult carrier has like, oh, the pay. She was starting to rank for pet carrier and dog carrier. One has like 20,000 searches a month. One's by like 30,000 such a month, she got to page two of Google, like right at the top of page two. And she's like, I I'm going to quit.
I'm like, are you crazy? You, you quit now and you get zero return on what you've invested. If you keep going those keywords of just about to hit that. And you're going to open the flood. And she's like, um, maybe we'll work with you again later. I'm like, why? Cause like I'm not gonna take you back, like get out of here.
That's like just, just crazy. You know, you need the legs to get it going. Uh, the reason that we do a strategy so that we can show this is going to be your growth arc and that's what we guarantee. And it depends on where you start. Yeah. If you've got a big established website, it's much easier. We can get results quicker.
If you're brand new, if you don't have a website it's going to take longer. Google does. If you've just bought your domain today, Google does not trust you because anyone can write any crap they want on the internet. Google's not going to trust someone that's brand new, but if you're already getting zero traffic, it's going to take a bit of work.
Avery Kyle, the one woman that I mentioned. Uh, I I'm looking at her strategy refresh. When she started with us, she was getting around 40 to 50 visitors a month. Not very impressive. Uh, when we redid her, her, her second strategy for her, she was getting 7,000 visitors. So that's what we achieved in, in a year or less than a year, about 10 months for her.
Uh, now on page two and three of Google, she she's ranking for keywords worth around 43,000. So all of those are moving towards the front page. So that's like the, the beauty of SEO where it's, you know, it's not linear, it grows exponentially. So she went from near zero to 7,001 next year, next year, I imagine it'll go from seven to 30 or 40 or 50,000, you know, it's, it's much bigger growth profile and it's just going to keep growing from that, you know, The beauty, the more we understand our business, like I had lunch with her account manager the other day.
I never speak cause we already understand what she does and we just work on a site and get it done. And she runs it. She's also now like opening a mortgage brokerage, cause she sells so much real estate. So I might as well say a loan as well. And it's like, awesome. So she gets to go and do her business and not worry about her marketing.
She knows that we've got it covered and we're getting the mortgage business as well. So it's like awesome.
Joseph: [00:40:02] Okay. So something there that I wanted to touch on, just to make sure I'm understanding it. So you had said that, um, for, for that client, they managed to get to, I think it was around like what page three of the rankings about the
Kris Reid: [00:40:14] The dog carrier? Yeah, they got to page two at the top of page two. No one goes to the second page of Google, right? Even the top ten. So if you're at the bottom, there's, there's 10 search results on the front page of Google. For those that don't know, uh, if you're around them a 10 on number nine, you're getting grabbed three to 4% of the traffic.
About three to 4% of people will click on Amazon. If your number, if you're number two, you get 15% of the traffic, which is what, you know, five times as much. If you're number one, you get about 33% of the traffic. So the difference between number two and number one is over a hundred percent more traffic.
In fact, I had a lunch with, with the webmaster point help one time and they get a lot of tracks. And he, he told me without just looking at the analytics, he could tell, tell if they were number one in Google for the keyword point. It like, it would just be that much traffic difference if they were number one or number two, you know, it's like that, that's how stock it is.
But yeah, no one is going to page two of Google. And even if they do. It's divided by those 10 there. So you're not going to get any traffic. She was so close to making money, but she didn't have the legs to make it.
Joseph: [00:41:36] By the way, if you're a current user of Debutify or haven't tried us out yet, Debutify version three has been released and now is a good time to upgrade or get started as any. A streamlined user interface along with an ever increasing array of conversion boosting add ons is waiting for you. So download today for free and start your journey. Who knows, maybe I'll be interviewing you before too long.
I don't normally do tests like this, but I just popped it into Google. Pornhub is still number one. Okay. I totally didn't have that tab open earlier, also, by the way earlier on, you were trying to remember the name of that, uh, that author. Uh, it was Perry Marshall, the 80 20 sales..
Kris Reid: [00:42:14] Fabulous book.And there's a previous book called 82. Which is about like 20% of the people in the world, about 80% of the money. And then even 20% of those people have 80% of that money and it keeps going infinitely, uh, which it does, you know, until even you get to the top 20% of billionaires have 80% of the billionaire money and the same with your clients, right?
20% of them will be bringing you 80% of your revenue, understanding who those people are, you know, is how you need to focus yourself. And that's what that book is all about. Really, really increased both our sales and our marketing and filtering stuff out. In fact, let me show you I'm really great sales funnel, which is our sales funnel.
I think it's fabulous. And in fact, I had a sales call last night. The woman gave me her money and she commented on how good it is. Because we do it, we eat out and don't figure I would do our marketing. And so we get a lot of traffic and we don't have time to speak to everyone. I don't want to speak to someone that's got, yeah, I've got $200 a month to spend on ICF.
Get out of here. I don't want to talk to you now. I want someone that's serious about growing their business, that they know, okay, it's going to cost me $3,000 to do a strategy. And then at a minimum, I'm going to have to invest $2,000 a month. So I'm going to ask you for $30,000, ideally, I'll ask you for 50.
I want someone that's bloody serious, not someone that's joking around. And so I want a sales funnel to filter out all the rubbish. And in fact, we'll set up a landing page. So if you go to ardor, SEO ardor means to do something with a fiery passion. And if you can't tell from my funny accent, it's spelled ardor.
So ardorseo.com/debutify. And there's a little video of me talking about. Predict giving you predictable revenue, putting in your name and email, and then we have what's called a tripwire product. So we do a video review. So we'll show you exactly what your potential customers are searching for in what search volume and show you some simple things that you can change on your website to get your message in front of them and predictably grow your business.
And that's for the whopping massive price of $7, you know, a $7 price tag. It's just such a great trick. One, it filters out all the crap cause anyone that isn't serious about their businesses and going to invest $7. And so then I'm not speaking to them. So it's great, but it's not that much that you'd need to think about that when someone whips out their credit card and gives you money, it doesn't matter if it's a dollar or 10 cents, whatever the trust value goes up dramatically, you know, you need to deliver on that.
If you took someone $7. Give them crap. Then they give destroy that trust. But once someone gives you any amount of money like that, your authority level goes through the roof and your trust level goes up, oh, I gave you money and you returned on that on, on what you said you do. Awesome. And so now they're in our sales funnel and they're really qualified late.
And so once they understand what we do, we, we book in a call and then, and then those convert, like. And that's, that's a really great way to filter out the crap. So throughout the noise and make sure that our pipelines only filled with really, really bright potential clients. So awesome sales funnel that really converts very well out of ardorseo.com/debutify.
Joseph: [00:45:43] I checked that out while you were describing it. I was tempted to pull up a screen share, but I don't, I don't like to leave the, uh, the audio people out in the cold, but, uh, y'all could check out the link, uh, as, uh, as I will have after what, I'm not a micro micromanaging. Um, I used to use a, okay. A couple of small things I'm wondering about, cause I've only got you for another eight minutes.
Um, one of them is a, there are other search engines, um, and I'm coming off the heels of another conversation that I had, uh, earlier this week with Dr. Robin Gaster. The, where that conversation got to on that subject is that, you know, Google was really like it go controls the prices, Google controls, all of it.
Is there any significance or relevance to these other search engines or is it the same thing where it's just the scale there isn't coming into your radar.
Kris Reid: [00:46:27] They're trying to do the same thing. You know, they're trying to organize the internet and give you the best search result. That's what Google's trying to do, you know?
So I imagine that if you rank well on Google, you're going to rank while I'm being picky. Like, you know, why go after what's been, got like 8%, 10% of the market? Why would you go and focus on 10% when you can 90%. So over there, you know, it just doesn't make any sense.
Joseph: [00:46:52] Well, yeah, like I, I do, like, I do end up doing a number of searches on Google.
Um, but I also use a duck duck go as my primary search engine. And to think for me is it's more about, you know, sometimes I do just want to support the little guy. I mean, some of it is just a concern, like as a trust thing, but sometimes I don't find Google a hundred percent trustworthy, but that's because I'm more of an outlier.
Kris Reid: [00:47:18] Team members were using duck, duck go. And I was like, guys, we worked with Google, use Google. Even if you'd like the little guy we need to know what Google search results look like. We don't know. Yeah. Yeah.
Joseph: [00:47:28] They're on the job. Yeah. I understand.
Kris Reid: [00:47:30] You're on the job and you know, it is terrible that the world's owned by Walmart and Amazon and giant companies like that.
I'm all about sport, the little guy, and that's awesome that we can give them a voice and give them a. But Google's a search engine that everyone uses. So that's what you should focus on. If you're doing ads and Google ads work or Google wouldn't make any money. Alphabet, the parent company of Google, something like 95% of their revenue comes from Google ads.
It's my school. Uh, so they, they work. Bing ads cheaper. So if you've got a campaign that's working with Google ads, it'll work with Bing ads. You won't get as much traffic because there's not as many clicks there. Uh, so you can do it and then add a novice as a good return as SEO. So if you want to set up an ad campaign, go for it, but focus your SEO on Google.
Joseph: [00:48:22] Another one that I'm wondering about. The degree of pushback that maybe you would encounter based on the brand. Like, you know, you, you, you provide a strategy and maybe the messaging has very such a variation from maybe the message that they want to convey. Have you ever run into a situation like that where you have to have a little bit more of a compromise between their vision and the vision?
Kris Reid: [00:48:44] So yeah. Comes with a lion rider at one point, it's their money and you have to give them what they want. Kind of be the it's also, they're paying you to give you expertise. So you somewhat have to be stern and go, Hey dude, you listen to me. This is what we do professionally. You know, sometimes people get all caught up on their logo and it's like, dude, who gives a crap about your logo, dude?
No one, you know, I use the example of Starbucks. Starbucks is a stupid name from some big grade Saifai movie. They got a naked mermaid on their logo. It's a stupid logo and they're multi gazillion dollar brand. That's all around the world. Now your name does not matter as much as you think it does.
Neither does your logo. No, one's buying you because you, in the name of your logo, you know, when you're a smaller company, it's good to be really clear what you do. Like our business Ardor SEO. What do you think we did? You know, it says it on the tin. It's like Jim's plumbing. It's, you know, if you can tell people straight away what you do, you know, I, I actually even think of the Starbucks and Starbucks coffee house or Starbucks coffee and something, you know, it's like, it tells you what they do.
Now they don't need to mention the coffee bit because they're such a brand Amazon. It used to be always Amazon, everything store right now. I used to use to push that so much. Now it's just Amazon and run those where they are. So don't get caught up on that stuff. What is super important? And I really, uh, Donald Miller StoryBrand fabulous book read three times.
His other book marketing made simple. It's really good as well. You know, it talks about clarity. People run away from confusion. Yeah, I'm the same. Whenever I have a sales call and I don't get money it's because I didn't explain the process. Well enough. I whole heartedly believe that I failed because if you understood what we do, you'd give me money.
Yeah. It's, it's as simple as that. And, um, getting people to understand you, it's difficult, you know, I've got three young kids and understanding trying to work out what they understand and what you say is, is challenging. And it's the same when you're speaking with an adult. Different words mean different things to different people and getting your message across is hard, you know, and getting that on your website really clearly.
How do you make that person's life better and make sure that it's not about you because just like in sales, no one gives a crap about you. No one cares about your brand. They care about how are you going to make that life better? And that's what good sales and marketing.
Joseph: [00:51:23] I'll also, um, while you're discovering that I can confirm that, um, I typed in Starbucks, uh, two things, one, the mermaid is naked and two, uh, it does say Starbucks coffee company.
Um, so that is. I don't know, I go to Starbucks at least like twice a week. Cause there's one way too close to my apartment for my own. Good and often. Yeah. I don't really think about the fact that there is the coffee company to it. It's just, the brand has become so synonymous with, uh, with my behavior. So with that, Kris I have so little time left.
So I'm going to hit you with a completely random question about real estate. Um, cause I just wanted to defer to your expertise for that for a second. So with real estate, and I know that this is a dumb question, but I'm asking it, but I'm doing it anyways. Why is it? It tends to me, it comes across as one of those markets where it's really, it's a winners game in order to be able to get into real estate.
I have to have enough money to even make a down payment on a, uh, on a home or a condo or something like that. Is there any method or strategy to get into real estate on a, at a, at a lower budget? Like what's like the, the, the low threshold to take a crack at the real estate.
Kris Reid: [00:52:30] So, so to correct you there.
Well, I'm not an expert at real estate marketing, not, not so much real estate itself.
Joseph: [00:52:37] Right. But it has crossed your radar. I'm hoping.
Kris Reid: [00:52:41] You know, I, I speak to people about it all the time, uh, and probably pricing in the US holy cow, you can get some cheap products. Like, I'd see people buying houses for under a hundred K all the time.
It's like, man, in Australia, you wouldn't get it. You know, it's shocking. Yeah, half a million dollars. It's it's crazy.
Joseph: [00:52:59] Well, I'm in Canada, even this water's like, yeah.
Kris Reid: [00:53:03] It's like everything that it's, you've got to go out and find those little sweet spots, you know, and doing up a house and think he can sell it for more.
Well, you need to know what you do. Is, it's not an easy game. If it was easy to do, then everyone would do it. So this episode is probably going to go out too late, but if you go to the real estate masters, summit.com, you'll see that we're putting on a summit and it's massive. We've got 42 of the biggest speakers in real estate.
Not only real estate. We have Donald Miller from StoryBrand speaking. Well class people telling you how to, how they build their business. How every council, 158 million, we've got several of the top 10 realtors in the U S speaking. We go syndication company. It's multi-family people. How to, how to it'll say marketing, everything that you need to know that in fact, I just sort of promotion go out this morning about Avery cards.
She, she was a bartender six years ago. And she just commented on holy cow. I retired from as a bartender six years ago, and then she listed out the amount of properties she's invested. This month, it's like, holy cow, how big is your portfolio now? Like, and that that's how fast you can go in six months at six years, if you just keep reinvesting.
And that's the, that's the beauty of business, beautiful SEO. You know, you keep reinvesting in your website, it keeps growing your business. You keep reinvesting that money back in your business. It keeps on growing, you know,
Joseph: [00:54:36] Well, um, with that, um, it's really has been fantastic to, to have you for the time that I, that I had.
Um, thank you to you and your, and your people for reaching out to us to book this on. It's always a pleasure to get the intake, as well as, uh, the outtake, uh, there's anything you want to do to close us out. Uh, the floor is yours. Once more wisdom, any more books you want to mention, just go through your, your, your social is your website.
You know, the drill.
Kris Reid: [00:54:59] Yeah. I mean, I'm not the most social person, so don't look for me on social media. I like to look in my little, little, little cave and hide away from my children, but yeah. Check out the real estate master summit. That'll show you just how much we're into real estate marketing, leasing down there's power in the niche and check out our awesome sales funnel at ardorseo.com/debutify.
Joseph: [00:55:22] But this episode will go out after the fact.
So how can we find the real estate summit afterwards.
Kris Reid: [00:55:26] Uh, well, if it can still go to the website and you'll see some, some pretty cool stuff there, I, I will have something up there that's pretty special.
Joseph: [00:55:33] Okay, terrific. Um, what we'll do our audience, plenty of takeaways. A lot of good reading material, a lot of important things to think about with SEO and really what any one of us are capable of. You know, it takes motivation. It takes harder, it takes passion to do it. Uh, and so, um, today is just one more opportunity that I've gotten to be able to impart some of that to, to all of you as just as much as it's been imparted on me. So Kris Reid, uh, thank you for your time.
It's been a, it's been a blast to our audience, take care and we will check in soon.
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