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Madeline Mann - Career Calibration and Art of the Interview

icon-calendar 2021-10-26 | icon-microphone 46m 52s Listening Time | icon-user Joseph Ianni
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In the great debate about finding a career path that works, people are torn between pursuing a passion or pursuing a paycheque. My guest today, Madeline Mann, cuts through that debate with a simple but elegant solution; do what comes naturally to you. We use this episode to unpack that idea and while we're at it, yours truly attempts a hypothetical job interview just to see how it goes and what we can learn. And oh boy are there things to learn. 

Madeline Mann is an HR & Recruiting leader who has built an audience of over a half a million people and is known for her award-winning job search YouTube Channel, Self Made Millennial. Mann’s career coaching programs have led to thousands of success stories, and her work has been featured in Bloomberg, Business Insider, New York Times, and more.

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πŸ‘‰MADELINE MANN

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Tags: #Debutify #madelinemann #selfmademillenial

[00:00:00] Madeline Mann: What is so important is really playing to your strengths in your career path, forget passion. Yeah. Forget all these things about, do what you love. It's really about building mastery. And what I've found is that you're able to really build mastery and competence when you're playing to things that you naturally already good at.

So I looked at my strengths. I saw that I was really good at psychology. And so I thought, okay, what jobs is that a strength that will help me get far very quickly. Over time I really talked to a lot of different people and saw, wow, this is a role that plays to my values. It plays to my strengths and there's market demand for it.

And that's ultimately how I ended up choosing a career that I absolutely adore. 

[00:00:48] Joseph: You're listening to Ecomonics, a Debutify podcast. Your resource for one of the kind of insights into the world of e-commerce and business in the modern age. This is Joseph. I'll be presenting a wealth of industry knowledge from interviews with successful business people and our own state-of-the-art research.

Your time is valuable, so let's go.

In the great debate about finding a career path that works, people are torn between pursuing a passion or pursuing a paycheck. My guest today, Madeline Mann, cuts through that debate with a simple but elegant solution. Do what comes naturally to you. We use this episode to unpack that idea, and while we're at it, yours truly attempts to hypothetical job interview, just to see how it goes and what we can learn for your other things.

Madeline Mann. It is good to have here at Ecomonics. How you doing today? How you feeling? I'm great. How are you? I'm doing pretty good too. It's been a, it's been a longer day. Uh, as I mentioned, uh, previous, uh, before we started recording, uh, had to draw the straw, the short end of the stick for, for, for meeting.

So I've been up for a while, but my goodness do I respect the power of naps. So I'm, uh, otherwise I'm having a unique day and I am excited to, to be able to talk to you. I looked into your profile and I was really amazed. You know what you've done, um, with your, you know, with your own career, but also with the help that you provided for others.

So it doesn't mean a lot to have you here today. And with that, I would love for you to tell our audience what you do and what you're up to these days. 

[00:02:21] Madeline Mann: Absolutely. I'm Madeline Mann. I'm the creator of self-made millennial. You may have seen me on YouTube, LinkedIn, TikTok, where I give rapid fire battle-tested career and job search tips.

And this all stems from my background in human resources, where I was the head of HR at a tech company. I was seeing everything behind the scenes of exactly what was getting into. The job offer what was getting them, the promotion and breaking down all of those things that those people who were doing things that successfully exactly the steps they took.

And I said, I'm going to release this to the world. So I've built lots of programs and content to help people really succeed in their career. 

[00:03:04] Joseph: And as, and as I say, you know, I've had a chance to look into what you're up to. One of the insights that, um, actually made me really rethink a lot of things, um, in a positive way, um, was when you're saying, you know, when you're looking for that for your, for a job that really fits it's about doing what comes naturally to you, um, which is really the first time that I've heard.

Uh, kind of insight, uh, you know, you have one uh, camp who argues, you know, uh, pursue your passion. You have another camp that says, uh, just trying to make a lot of money and, and I've, I've tended to say, you know, try to do both. And if you're lucky, you get to do both at the same time, but, um, the whatever your passion happens to be, you should really be, um, indifferent to the money.

If anything, the more money the easier might be to pursue your passion, you know, buy more, um, uh, expensive guitars or, or more expensive lessons or whatever happens to help you along the way, but coming what comes naturally to you. So how did your position come naturally to you and how did you, uh, I guess determine with confidence that it was coming naturally to you.

[00:04:04] Madeline Mann: So, what is so important is really playing to your strengths in your career path, forget passion. Yeah. Forget that, you know, that all these things about do what you love. It's really about building mastery. And what I've found is that you're able to really build mastery and competence when you're playing to things that you naturally already good at.

So when I was figuring out my path in human resources. First, I thought I wanted to be a journalist, but when I looked at my values, which is also another key component that you have to look at, I saw that I'm someone who really likes to work on a team and that, and when I was doing journalism work, it was very independent.

I'm someone who likes to be, you know, be high-achieving and be able to climb the ladder quickly in that role it didn't really have. Like, there's just a lot of things that just weren't congruent with what I wanted. And so I looked at my strengths, I saw that I was really good at psychology. Like anything about human psychology.

I pick it up extremely quickly. And so I thought, okay, what jobs. Is that a strength that will help me get far very quickly. And it it's a very, it's a long story of how I got to human resources, no little girl dreams of being a human resources manager. But over time, I really talked to a lot of different people and saw, wow, this is a role that plays to my values. It plays to my strengths and there's market demand for it. And that's ultimately how I ended up choosing a career that I absolutely adore. 

[00:05:34] Joseph: And I think another important way to look at it too, is to always talk about, and you say values, which leans into the point that I want to make here about, you know, the underlying motivations or the fundamental.

And I mean, one thing I've enjoyed, I enjoy listening to people. I really do. So, you know, some people, they come on the show and be like, oh, I'm sorry, was I rambling? And I'm just like, no, please go, just go, go, ha ha have had the time of your life. Uh, by all means, uh, if I weren't standing, when I'm doing this, I would have my feet up right now.

So, so there's that. And so when I'm, when I'm going to think about, um, uh, human resources, it does come across as a, as a corporate ties, um, position. Cause it often uh, if not exclusively is, um, but there are fundamentals of beneath that. I, I can guess what they are, which I think is, you know, human connection and trying to put people in the right place, uh, helping them find, uh, what is coming naturally to them.

Um, but what would you say have been the fundamentals of it? 

[00:06:28] Madeline Mann: Building processes that facilitate the business goals? So what so many people think is, okay, I have a great strategy. I have great technology. That is what makes me successful company. You're forgetting the key part that if it's not in place, everything is going to turn to shambles, which is how do you create.

You know, how do you find the right people to do that job? How do you make sure that they are trained properly? How do you ensure that they are aligned with you? That the vision is right? That the role is right? That we are exactly playing to their strengths, that we, that, that strategy is communicated properly.

All these different elements. It's just the other two parts are completely useless unless you really understand the people's stress. 

[00:07:11] Joseph: There's a lot of directions that we can go this. Cause there's so many things that I'm wondering about. Um, one of them, this might be a little bit, uh, this is going to be a more granular one, but with, with human resources, is it primarily just, you know, looking for, uh, for people to hire and then also, I guess, moving people around from position to position?

Um, I don't actually know, you know, what else there is a to the position I would like to hear it from your level of experience. 

[00:07:34] Madeline Mann: There's organizational development, really understanding how are you going to build and grow your organization? How are we going to move people around there's um, the personnel management.

So there's a lot of things behind the scenes that kind of go wrong or there's these different dynamics that need to be dealt with that. It's very sensitively, possibly performance issues or any sort of harassment, those types of things, there's training and onboarding, really making sure that your workforce has the tools they need to catapult into their highest productivity.

Um, and then there's elements of understanding. Okay. How do we track performance? How do we, how do we compensate people correctly? How do we build out programming that keeps people interested and retained all of these all different dimensions, you know, beyond hiring and firing. 

[00:08:25] Joseph: And I guess one of the, one of the trickiest aspects of it.

Uh, is, is conflict resolution. Um, because what you have is what I would say is probably the more, the most emotional situation, uh, that people get into it because things start getting on a more personal level. So I th I think that there's a, there's a balance there between, um, continuing to adhere to. Uh, company culture and making sure that it's handled in a way that the company appreciates, but also understanding the human element to resolving a problem as, uh, as emotional as it may be.

That's, that's the part that sticks out to me as well, based on what you're describing. And I, and I think it's an admirable part of, of the overall position. Once we think about that. And then I'll move on to the next question, which is, uh, it. Uh, w conflicts or anything like that, stick out in your mind from, from your past of like, trying to find the right balance of how to make everyone happy, including the company.

[00:09:15] Madeline Mann: I think that there's one that I think is coming up more and more now in companies, is that poll of should, should we allow everyone to be remote or not? Like, is there a value of being in person or is there value to being extra productive at home? I think that this is, I've seen this my entire, you know, the past decade, but now it's, it's just more of a conversation than ever.

[00:09:38] Joseph: Yeah. Yeah. I, I just, uh, I remember, um, there's a Starbucks near where I live a little too close for, for my, uh, for my sake, for my, uh, budget management. And I would look over and I would see, you know, the, the manager and she's on a zoom call and I guess everyone's in their store cause everyone's masking up and, and it does make me wonder, you know, how much of that they're going to continue on afterwards and probably.

They will, even though at certain point, people will not be able to not have to wear their masks so much. Uh, and, and I guess in my, in my final tick on it is as much as they can. I think it's been revealed just how much money it saves and how much it really improves people's wellbeing. But there is still a lot lost when people aren't working together in person and in collaboration.

So one thing I've seen that's worked out for some companies is like, you know, short group vacations, where they will bring everybody out to a location, do some work there while they're there some big picture work, and then somebody send everybody on. 

[00:10:30] Madeline Mann: Yeah, I think that's good too. Cause it's, it's really meaningful.

It is meaningful to have that in-person connection, but you're right. There's so much cost save and also productivity doesn't seem to drop when you go remote. 

[00:10:41] Joseph: Or so this was another one that I wanted to, uh, to introduce to our audience. Um, you, you mentioned this in your, in your, about profile, on YouTube, it's about the star behavioral technique and, uh, and how this, uh, a factor that helps people, you know, handle these ahead to these interviews, uh, effectively. So, um, you know, where does this come from and what is it and how has it applied? 

[00:11:03] Madeline Mann: Star behavioral technique is a way to answer job interview questions that makes it so that the interviewer really gets. A full idea of what it looks like to work with you.

So it's essentially a framework to tell stories when you're asked a question. So you might be asked a question such as, tell me about a time you. Yeah. Faced a difficult challenge. Okay. Something like that and what you then want to do instead of saying, well, last week when I, when someone called and yelled at me, right?

Like that would be a correct answer. That is a time that you faced a difficult challenge, but you just left out so many details that you have no idea what it's like to work with me based on that answer. And so star is the typical way that people go about it is which is, it stands for us situation, task action result.

I think that four steps to answer these questions is one too many steps. So I typically say the car or the par. So like the challenge or problem, the action and the results. Um, it's, uh, you know, beginning, middle, end. So you say, you know, the, the challenge was someone called me to say that they got the wrong product delivered to their door.

Action. I remembered. You know that this customer really liked, you know, dogs. So I sent them a, you know, a chocolate shaped in the shape of a dog, um, result this person left a glowing review saying that we had the best customer support and so super thoughtful. Right. So really having all three of those steps shows that you are telling the full story so that people can start to see you working at their company. 

[00:12:48] Joseph: All right. So I'm done. I was, depending on when I wanted to, uh, to jump into this. Um, but you know, we've, we've been warming up talking about, uh, interviews. And so what I took to my audience, what I asked Madeline before we start recording, is if I could be hit with some of these interview questions, just to see how I handle them and hopefully integrate what, um, what you've just described, although a bit of a slow learner. So let's say three to five questions I think should be enough to get an aggregate or is that, is it, is that a. 

[00:13:19] Madeline Mann: All right. As long as it. Yeah, we have the time then. Sure. Uh, okay.

[00:13:24] Joseph: I, I value uniqueness. I always think if I'm gonna bring somebody on, I want to do something that I haven't done in other people's interviews.

Let's do it. 

[00:13:31] Madeline Mann: All right. So sh so should we, should we get started with the interview? 

[00:13:34] Joseph: I've been looking forward to this. 

[00:13:35] Madeline Mann: Here's the thing is all of us have strengths and weaknesses, right? There's things. We're good at things we're not so great at. So could you tell me something that is maybe not a strong suit of yours, maybe a weakness.

[00:13:46] Joseph: Sure. Sometimes I feel like I'm using it a little bit, too much time to make a decision. And then in the interest of correcting that, I then not use enough time to make a decision. So I am working on trying to find a balance between giving it the correct amount of thought, not overthinking it, but not under thinking it either.

[00:14:05] Madeline Mann: Do you want me to review it now or do you want to go through all the questions? 

[00:14:08] Joseph: Let's let's, let's go through all of them. Cause, uh, cause then all of us are like, uh, self criticizing, uh, halfway through. 

[00:14:13] Madeline Mann: Great. All right. Well, can you tell me about one of your best accomplish. 

[00:14:19] Joseph: If I'm allowed to use what I've done on this podcast, then I would say there was somebody I wasn't expecting to interview, um, by the name of Greg Halpern and, and his, and his, his people connected with us.

So, and I, and I got to look at his profile and I was just amazed at what he had accomplished and it was very inspirational. And I remember. Um, you know, waiting for him to show up on the zoom call and I was physically shaking. So while that interview was good and it was one of those ones where, you know, he just does the talking and I'm just sitting and nodding my head.

Um, so it wasn't the hardest I've worked for an interview, but it reminded, it showed me how far I've come. And that I don't think I would have been in that position when I had started 10 years. 

[00:15:02] Madeline Mann: Okay, great. And talking about time, you said 10 years ago, where do you see yourself in five years? 

[00:15:09] Joseph: Short answer.

I'd love to own property. So that is one of my key goals. Um, I'm working on that, uh, trying to, uh, put together a room for a down payment. I do enjoy what I do here and I, and I feel like, and you have to pardon me for being rather meta about this, but I do enjoy being an interviewer. I'd like to think that I can. Uh, elevate that as my platform. And so I'm continuing to do what I can to, uh, become that. And then in 10 years I do plan an exit media because I wanted to then work on my creative skills and focus on my writing. 

[00:15:41] Madeline Mann: Good. Well, I think, yeah, there you go. There's our three questions. Should we, should we reveal them?

So the first question I asked was what's your greatest weakness. And your answer was, was making questions to slowly and then to compensate someone as you make questions quickly. Um, I think what was great about your answer there, you didn't leave it there. You said, well, and I've been working on it. And what I would have loved to see here is like a little bit deeper into how you problem solve and how you work on it.

So you, I think you, you mentioned something kind of briefly of like, but I'm working on it and it seems to be improving or something like that, but I would've loved to hear, so what I've done is I've started making pro con list. And it actually has cut my time in half. And what I've found is digital I'm able to then be thoughtful, but without being, you know, taking a long time, you know, something like that where I'm like, Ooh, he's such a problem solver.

Um, so how did that one feel? 

[00:16:54] Joseph: I was, I was actually surprised with my answer to, to be honest with you. Cause, cause I mean, okay. There's, there's, there's a few things I can choose from. Um, but I said, you know what? That action. That was the one that was fresh in my mind. And while we, we never want to be like too, I guess, um, in meshed in emotionality, I do think that there was a lot of truth to how we're feeling.

I do find that feelings are a way to, they condense a lot of information and they try to communicate it very quickly. So we have intuition, we have feelings about something. I do think that there is a, a reasoning for that. So my feelings were mad. I do, uh, struggle with. You know, overthinking under thinking.

And, and that was the answer that came to me. 

[00:17:34] Madeline Mann: That is such an interesting thing. And I sure so many people listening right now can relate to that of you have no idea what you're going to say. The interview, I tell it just comes out and sometimes it's magic and sometimes you're thinking that is like the seeing on the list. Like there's so many other things I could have brought up in that moment, but that came out it's, it's so funny like that. Um, but yeah, I thought that was a good one. Um. 

[00:17:56] Joseph: I totally wrote down pro con lists. 

[00:18:01] Madeline Mann: Nice. And so for the second one, it was what, what is one of your greatest accomplishments?

And it was about this guest on the podcast. How do you feel like that one went?

[00:18:12] Joseph: I wish I had come up with something not related to the show. Cause they didn't want to get too meta. I also really felt like that was a huge milestone for me. So balancing act, uh, totally relating to a problem, you know, the first, uh, answer the first question, like, you know what, no, this really is something that meant a lot.

Yeah. And so that's the, uh, that is why I would pick that answer. I dunno if I had like 24 hours to think about it, I'm like, wow. I don't know. That's some stuff I can't say on air, so that's the best I can do. 

[00:18:44] Madeline Mann: Yeah. So I think for that one and you answered it in a way that a lot of people answer it is they say.

Here was the accomplishment. And I felt really good about it. Like, I was really proud of this product launch. We had worked for months on it and when it launched, it was really successful. Like that's, that's not a story, like it's stating a few facts. So I think in that answer would have been great for, to hear a little bit more development about, um, really, you know, the work you put into that interview and what, what really came about that made that one like special and not necessarily special in your eyes, but special to an employer.

Like what competency is, did you show, I know I've, I've, uh, you know, coached someone before on this and they said their answer to that question was I graduated from grad school and I was the first person in my family to do it. And I could tell to her that meant the world, but to be honest, Everyone else applying for that role, she was going for graduated from grad school.

So that is not the correct answer. So we always have to think about not necessarily what we are most proud of, but what really shows our competency the best to employers. 

[00:19:55] Joseph: So just to, uh, process that a little bit more on my side. So the significance of it being the the her being the first to do it in the family, um, while significant store her.

But just so I'm understanding correctly that wasn't as significant to, to the company. So even though they recognize that that's not exactly what would have been the, uh, the, the slam dunk. 

[00:20:17] Madeline Mann: Exactly. Because when they're asking that question, essentially what the interviewer is saying is. Here's a moment to shine. Here's a moment to give me several reasons why you are the best person to hire. And in graduating from a graduate program is not a reason it's more of a checkbox. And so while there, you know, she could, she could tell the story of how maybe she really, you know, came from a background where she struggled and she was able to make it to that.

Ultimately like if she's going for a business development manager role, it'd be better to give something about how she's able to build great relationships and chase after leads and close deals versus how she got a degree. 

[00:21:02] Joseph: That checks out this, this, this is a great, by the way, I'm glad I came up with this.

[00:21:06] Madeline Mann: And then I think the third one was. What was the third one I asked? 

[00:21:12] Joseph: Where do I see myself in five years? 

[00:21:13] Madeline Mann: Oh yes. Okay. So I absolutely hate this question, but the reason why I asked you it is because it is a really easy way to get declined. Like it's the companies use this to make sure that you're actually aligned with their business goals.

And so how do you feel like your answer? 

[00:21:35] Joseph: That wasn't the best that I've ever answered that question. The best I ever answered that question was for a podcast network that I was freelancing, uh, for, uh, this is about four or five years ago. And he had asked me, where do I see myself in five years? And without skipping a beat, I said, home and I said that wherever that I was was not where I want it to be, but I did want to be somewhere. And so when I said home, it was about, you know, I'm, I'm on this journey to, to figure out somewhere that I belong and that I feel like I am at home. It took a little bit longer than five years, but you know, if we do the best we can, um, whereas this one.

The, I don't hate this question. In fact, I kind of like it, but because it appeals to my personality matrix, which is I'm all about like long-term planning. So I, I, everything I said was the truth. After 10 years, I am, I am done with media. You know, assuming that I'm, uh, I'm financially secure, uh, because I, I, I don't have forever to be a writer.

In fact, there was this YouTube video that was talking about how the last season of game of Thrones didn't go so well. And what, and the thing was is that the writer who's very talented, but he had like nine years to write it and he didn't do it. And so, and it reflected on it. And the point of the video.

You know, he's getting older, he's not going to get any better at this. In fact, he might get worse and that scared the daylights out of me. So I thought, okay, by the time I'm 40, I am, I've got to, to pursue this. Uh, and then fifties, there's some stuff that I have, uh, in mind for that public service, uh, maybe president of Nintendo.

And so I, I just enjoy it and I, and I don't mind being wrong because I think it's important for people to. Um, pick a goal and pursue the goal and they don't quite get it. That's okay. Because you'll end up somewhere much better than not pursuing anything. 

[00:23:24] Madeline Mann: You might've been a little bit too honest in this answer to, to appeal to an employer.

I would say, uh, you know, knowing that you want to invest in real estate is, is unless it's related to the role, not important. Really what you want to focus on is how you want to grow. So it might be, I really want to build up X, Y, and Z skills over the next five years. I really want to be the go-to expert of podcasting at the next company I go to, I want to be part of, you know, growing a podcast from a certain audience size to, you know, to, to massively increasing it, like really thinking about results you'd like to have versus job titles or places you'd like to be.

Because that is, that really helps to get the employer to think about, okay, this is, what's going to look like to work with you. And here's what you're prioritizing and started as far as building goals and working towards, uh, growing your skills. 

[00:24:22] Joseph: Right. Right. Okay. So it's, it's about, it's about career development and, and I think for me it was too macro, um, whereas, okay.

So what are the more tangible next steps? And it says, how do I elevate this show? How do I okay. Makes sense. All right. All right. Cool. All right. So, um, uh, so, so good game. Well, uh, We'll close it there. That was fun. Uh, and so I'm going to shift gears in a way that is not transitioning towards notori whatsoever, but one of the things we wanted to talk about today was LinkedIn.

Um, cause th I think looking so by the way, uh, just shout out to my producer. I can't go on LinkedIn because I'm not a fan of like visiting somebody else's profile and they know I just, I, I have a hard time with that, but my producer, she has no problem with it whatsoever because she has a spine.

So she, she pulled up, uh, you know, your profile so we can look through what you're up to. And you're working with LinkedIn. Um, it's a bit more of like a recent development, right? That's like a year. 

[00:25:19] Madeline Mann: I'm working with, like I have, I have a course on LinkedIn. 

[00:25:22] Joseph: Course on LinkedIn. Okay. So, LinkedIn is something that we cover once in a while.

We've had a couple of LinkedIn experts, but we don't get to talk about it too much. So I think this is a good chance to do that. So I glued into your LinkedIn profile. Um, the course that we saw, there might be other courses. So you can let us know about those, but you talk about some factors that, um, keep something, keep someone from getting a job on the first run.

But they might have a, another chance of it afterwards. So we're talking about hiring freezes or the company doesn't call them back. And I don't know what the professional term for that is. Um, the unprofessional term would be ghosting. So I assumed that there was a more accurate name for it than that. Is that the, is that just the exclusive one that you're doing?

Uh, again, I think that's certainly one that we saw, but are you doing other courses? 

[00:26:06] Madeline Mann: So I have, I have multiple courses, so I've, I have LinkedIn learning course that you're referring to, which is how to follow up on a job application where it's not even just falling up on an application. It's like, if they rejected you, how do you follow up on that?

If you've been in the interviews and they haven't gotten back to you, how do you follow up? All of these things that actually can change the game as far as you landing the offer. I have a course called standout resume, which is the way to build out a resume. Um, and you can find that standardresume.com to see kind of like a, a free class on that.

And I have a class on LinkedIn for thought leaders, so how to build thought leadership on LinkedIn, and that has taken people from almost no following to become a LinkedIn top voice in less than six months. Um, and then I have a coaching program where people join and we just completely blow the lid off of their job search and absolutely give them the full make-over and get them the interview training, get them everything they need so that they can land their career defining job.

[00:27:06] Joseph: And, and one of the things that stuck out to me too, is that, um, with LinkedIn, you know, you can do quite a lot of, uh, visibility boosting without actually having to pay for ads. Uh, which is one of the things I really wanted to hear from you today. So, um, as much as you're willing to divulge, how, what are the steps people are taking to a boost their profile?

[00:27:26] Madeline Mann: It is unbelievable. The organic reach on LinkedIn. Um, my clients also when they update their LinkedIn profiles and all of that, they start to get interview requests coming in from companies, right? So they're no longer applying to companies as much. It's really inbound. These companies are finding them.

And that is really the position you want to be in, in your career where you're not constantly chasing the next opportunity. But you are sitting happy in your current role and companies are knocking on your door saying, Hey, you know, come join us when, when you're ready, we would love to pay you a lot more.

And then there's also the side of content creation, where if you look at LinkedIn compared to other platforms, the organic reach of LinkedIn, where if you post something you can reach, people's far beyond your, uh, your, uh, network, which is remarkable. A lot of people that when they post on LinkedIn, it won't really go anywhere, but that's because they're not hitting on certain viral triggers that you need to, but it really has completely transformed my career and my business. 

[00:28:31] Joseph: And, and, and, and one thing that stuck out to me as well, uh, and I don't know this is like LinkedIn exclusive, but, um, this was something that I had seen on another one of your TikToks where you know there, and I think that's happened to you too, where it got to a point where people were just like reaching out to you to, to, to work for them or um, you were making yourself available at, to say like headhunters where their job was to go and look for, uh, for, for, for people to go for these companies. So, um, can you tell us a little bit about like from your profile or from the people that you've, that data that you're working with, how these profiles are making themselves available to headhunters and standard?

I mean, it's, it's kind of a passive thing. Right? Cause they're just, they just set up the profile and they don't seem to, and they don't have to like actively go talk to anybody and yet they're getting offers. So, you know, there's people that are like knocking on doors and they're trying to get jobs and they can't, and they have no luck.

[00:29:21] Madeline Mann: Well companies really, they hire all these recruiters and headhunters to find passive talent, which means talent that already has jobs, talents that's already thriving, talent that's in demand. And so what's so many people think is, oh, I'm going to tell everyone on LinkedIn that I am open to opportunities that I will talk to anyone and companies that's not valuable to them.

It doesn't matter if you're open opportunities or closed opportunities. They'll knock on your door. If you are the right fit, if you have the right skillset. And so that is what the LinkedIn profile is all about is making sure that you're specific about the value you add to the world. So when people would come to my profile, they'd immediately know which industry I'm serving, the roles I've had in the past, the roles I'm targeting in the future, the value I can add to the world. All of those things. Um, I do have a LinkedIn profile checklist. If anyone wants it, it's on the front page of my website, madelinemann.com. And that really helps you to go through and, you know, make sure that you're hitting on these things so that these companies are actually finding you.

[00:30:26] Joseph: Now that Shopify has upgraded to version 2.0, we needed to make sure we were up to speed. So we've released version 4.0 to ensure that we're 100% equipped to take advantage of the 2.0 revolution. If you haven't upgraded your store, head on over, and if you haven't gotten started, now is a good time as any.

And I, like I said, my producer she's, she looks at LinkedIn profiles and we, and we use that for some of our prep. And what sticks out to me is sometimes we'll, we'll see somebody who they have every job that they've ever worked, um, right from the beginning. And I admire that. Um, I, I haven't done that. I I've tended, um, as far as my resume is concerned, I've always done like, you know, the, the top, the three most recent ones. Um, and then on LinkedIn, I I've been kind of selective, like there's positions where, uh, I don't put that on. And I think the reason why I'm not doing that is because of my view of say like lateral value versus vertical value.

So say for instance, if somebody is just pursuing their one career path and yeah, they worked in a grocery store or they did something that has, doesn't really, it's a different pillar, you know? Grow my career in, in the grocery field, um, uh, indifference to this other, uh, pursuit. So my question too is, um, what have you seen really to be the best choice when people are using the full index of their work experience?

[00:31:52] Madeline Mann: Here's the good thing is that you don't have to be as narrow with the number of roles that you put on your LinkedIn, as you do your resume. I do think that those are two different rules, but I do agree with you in that more is not more, you know, it's it's, we don't necessarily need to put everything on there. For me, I counted a few years ago. I think I've had upwards of 17 jobs in my life. On my LinkedIn, you might see me put maybe five or so, because it's not necessary for them to know that I had that job in market research or that I worked at that sunglasses store or that I, you know, Telemarketing or whatever that is, right?

Because in the end, what's wonderful is that we are in charge of our story and we are able to create a more streamlined narrative. If you notice in my introduction, I didn't start with, well, first I majored in communications and college, and then I did this because that is unnecessary to show our value to the world.

And so really thinking about not necessarily that we need to cut it down for space reasons, but more for a more elegant narrative to where people can immediately understand, uh, the, the path and the most important information. 

[00:33:12] Joseph: Right. And, and, and I think one, uh, another way that I would, uh, condense it to just, you know, from my own understanding is, um, being acutely aware of my goals.

And if I, if I have one, uh, one job. You know, one part of the, of my LinkedIn, a history I could, I can see even writing it differently based off of how I would align those goals. So let's again using, I, you know, giving grocery as a, um, uh, as a, as a clear-cut example, groceries. Yes. There's physical labor. And that only goes so far, but then there's also customer service.

There's, you know, talking to people on a, on a day-to-day basis, guiding them, helping them save time. And so depending on. Uh, vertical I'm chasing. I can see, I would want to write more specifically on that and say, well, I'm, I, it, jobs tend to be multifaceted, no matter how specific somebody is. There's a lot of the details that go into it.

So I would say, well, you know, I, I did work at a lot of customer service. In fact, I excelled in that because that was something that I had valued. 

[00:34:08] Madeline Mann: Yeah. Yeah. And I think, I think every, every experience we have makes us who we are. Um, you know, I walked up to people on the street and sold them spa packages, just had a walk straight up to them.

And honestly that was some of the hardest work of my life, but I don't put on my resume, even though I feel like it made me the person I am today because in the end. It's just information overload. We can't be indulgent with telling our own story. We have to truly think from the outside end of okay. Yeah.

Is, is that grocery store job important? And sometimes it absolutely is. And sometimes it isn't and it's really a case by case basis. 

[00:34:46] Joseph: Uh, okay. I, I, one more, and this is more of like a, just a perspective question on LinkedIn. Cause I also got some stuff I want to know about, uh, in regards to TikTok, but is there anything down the line that you'd like to see, um, regarding LinkedIn, um, or with the platform to help to, or I think growth you'd like to see.

[00:35:01] Madeline Mann: I think that LinkedIn really is a little bit slower to adopt a lot of different features. It's kind of a dinosaur in some ways, even though I absolutely adore it, uh, and has given me so much, I think it really is now starting to actually adopt kind of take creators more seriously. Like they're starting to have like a division where, where they're actually giving creators attention and help.

And you know, so many of us are driving so many people do their platform and keeping it alive. So I think, I think LinkedIn will start to, I think, reward those things a bit more or promote them or help creators in more ways because LinkedIn keeps all of their feature updates, very close to the vest. They don't really tell users about them and all of us out here who are, who are preaching. LinkedIn are like, wait, you just changed that on us. And you didn't say anything. So that's that, that would be my only thing that I would hope that that would change in the future. 

[00:35:55] Joseph: I did interview somebody previously who worked with LinkedIn for quite a few years. So if you want me to, uh, put you in touch with them, just let me know.

But with that, with that out of the way, um, so we're going to, here's the thing that I also admired about, um, what you do. So on the one hand you have linkedin it's the, it's like a professional professional slash social network. And then the other side you have TikTok, which is, and then there's YouTube, which is in the middle and not, not so much about, you know, your, your work on it.

But I guess the general perspective that people take on it, they take TikTok as more of like, oh, this is a fun thing. I'm just scroll through those. I got down to kill maybe too much time to kill. Um, but, and, and you're not this isn't the first time that I've, um, that I've talked about this, but what's really surprised me about TikTok is how much it's turned into a nexus for, um, business advice and guidance and coaching. Some of the other people that I talked to, you know, independent brand owners, you know, they use Tiktok to build a platform, um, not necessarily like promote their business, but to promote themselves and to show their, their value in a bite-sized format and to provide, you know, what they'll do is they'll point to like, okay, here's some things that you can do to run your store.

They point it out. And then you know that none of that and it's, and it's it, it starts people off on the right track. And then of course they want to dig a little bit deeper. So that's what I found so far, but I'm not much of a TikToker. Uh, but, um, I I'd like to know what's been the, what's been your findings using it.

And how has it helped to, uh, enhance and, you know, build out your profile? 

[00:37:17] Madeline Mann: For me, I started on TikTok in 2019, and at that point, no one was really talking about business and very few people were talking straight to camera. Gary Vaynerchuk was one of the first people who was talking straight to camera was giving business and career advice.

And when I got on the platform, I just gave myself the, you know, conclusion that I was not going to dance. There was a few other people giving advice who are dancing and pointing and that kind of stuff said no. So I'm going to talk straight to camera. And my first few videos and just my first bunch of videos stays, keep kept hitting like a million views, you know, a few million views, 500,000 views because no one was doing this.

No one was just giving this advice straight to camera. And it's what I've been doing on, on YouTube for years was giving like these really quick fun tips that were extremely actionable. And that translated very well onto TikTok. Now, a couple years later, this is a lot more common and it's just been amazing for me as not just a creator, but as a user of TikTok, I get off a TikTok and I have 12 different things I want to try next about the way I clean my sink or the way I negotiate my rent or whatever it is because TikTok has become exactly as you said, such a beacon for, for learning. 

[00:38:34] Joseph: And, and one thing I'll just point out to it, just if, you know, from watching your TikToks is like, I have watched about five or 10 of them just to, you know, get a feel for what you do on them. And I think the editing goes a long way where it'll be like a question, a response to the question, which is something like, ah, and then it goes into the answer to the question and it just goes to show that you can get a lot of message in, in a very short amount of time.

[00:38:57] Madeline Mann: Yeah, I think that is a really important exercise for any content creator is I think brevity is a massive skill. There's the quote I would have written you a shorter letter, but I didn't have the time. It really takes more time and more effort to be brief, to be clear. And I think we don't value that enough.

And we said, Everything out. Um, so that's what I love about Tiktok is yeah. Just keeping it brief, getting people, those, those tips as quickly as possible. 

[00:39:25] Joseph: So I'm looking at the clock and I know I've only got you for another six minutes before I gotta let you go. And I have more questions than I have time to ask.

Um, which I, by the way, I, I personally value that. I like it when I run out of time, rather than running out of questions. I got two more for you. This was one that I had seen from the TikTok, which is so there's, there's a story here about. And, and, and so you mentioned that when people were in school and, you know, school tends to condition people to just check the boxes, I think use the word, the Rubicon and what people get out of school and they continue that continue. The rubric.

That was it. Yeah. Sorry. Rubicon is a, it's a juice brand over here. It's mango. It's pretty good. Anyways. So, but when people get into the workforce and that conditioning doesn't really. Um, they don't really, they're not conditioned to excel or to go a little bit more or if they're, let's say go the extra mile.

So, so that's the premise of it we're at, and that was a hard lesson. I mean, I had to learn that lesson the hard way as you say, uh, as well, but the question is about, have you seen situations where people are putting that extra effort in, and they're not getting, the, the, the results from it or how let's just say, hypothetically, if people are doing that and the company isn't recognizing that or rewarding that, um, where does the problem then lie?

Is it they're doing stuff that's not necessary and it's successive. So, so what if they're trying harder? Practical is it that maybe the company, um, isn't recognizing the work, um, which could say something about the work, um, and what somebody might, if it might be a sign that somebody has to find a different position or a different company to work for, because they're trying this and it's not working.

So I'm just, I would love to hear your experience on that side. 

[00:41:04] Madeline Mann: Okay. Yeah. So the premise of the video was we are so used to being in school, checking off a rubric, do X, Y, and Z. And you'll get an, a, you got a hundred percent do exactly what you're told and then in a company, if you do exactly, as you're told, you'll be seen as, all right.

You met expectations. Great. But that doesn't make you a high performer. It just means you did the three things I asked you to do. And you didn't think of any other ways to add value or to innovate or anything like that. So if you are someone who is staying late at work, doing, going the extra mile, helping others on the team, and you're not getting recognized for it, for sure.

It could be that they are just a bad employer, but I would like to try a few things before you jump to that conclusion. The first thing you need to look at is the, what is called the exposure of your work. So if you stay late every night of work this week, and no one knows you stayed late and you're just in, you're delivering things, it's almost as if it didn't happen.

And I know it's kind of funny, but it's, you need to make sure people know what you're doing and you would be shocked. At how little people know what you're doing. We think that we have eyes on us and our managers really intimately understand what we're doing every day, but really articulating saying, Hey, you know, I did X, Y, and Z.

And I noticed that this piece of the project was, could be, could be improved. So I stayed late last night. And you know, next meeting you have that. Well, yeah, I stayed late all this week. A lot of us just think, oh, it'll be noticed someone walked by and it'll, it'll be noticed. No. So what you always need to do is think of ways that you can make sure that there's high exposure, where people see the work you're doing and understand the value of it.

And oftentimes we also might be doing work that is not valued. And so we either need to drop it and focus on things that were more valued by the company and become promoted that way. 

[00:42:57] Joseph: I, I'm not gonna have time for the other question because I, but I would rather just say it's just reminded me of, um, of a position that I had had where I, I was, uh, I was in watches for, for a great many years.

And I remember I was w I was working, I showed up off shift because there were so many things that weren't getting done. And next week, um, I got a letter saying that some of my behavior has been unacceptable and I might face termination. And I thought after all those things I'd done. Off the clock and that's what I get.

And this, the reason why it reminded me of it, this is like, yeah, if you don't communicate this, so what, like you say, if, if you don't talk about it and it didn't actually happen. That's why it got done on clock. 

[00:43:39] Madeline Mann: Yes, exactly. You are yet, you're working so hard and so it's very easy and, and a lot of ways you shouldn't be mad at the employer of course, but there it's just, when you look at human nature, human nature shows that people just don't don't notice a lot of things we think they notice. And so literally telling people, articulating your value, doing debriefs on projects are saying what you've done, flagging when things are going wrong saying that you stayed late, all those things can really help you to get that promotion. 

[00:44:11] Joseph: Well, I think that's, uh, that's fantastic. And it culminates exactly with the, uh, the last minute that I've got you here. So, um, with that, I just want to say once more, thank you for, uh, for being with us today. This is in addition to being a lot of fun and a good learning experience. Uh, it was just, uh, uh, a privilege on my part to be able to. 

[00:44:31] Madeline Mann: This has been on blast. Thank you so much for having me. 

[00:44:34] Joseph: Glad to hear. Um, so the final question, um, well, the first part is optional in your case. Uh, if you have any last words of wisdom or more like a Chinese proverb, Brita, like you're free to share it and then let the audience know how they can find you. 

[00:44:45] Madeline Mann: Absolutely. So I would say that persistence gets jobs. So giving that persistence, being someone who is active in your job search, who's active in your career, don't let things happen to you. Cause you'll look, you don't want to look back 10 years from now and not say those were my decisions. I chose this path. Um, and then how do you find me? Well, follow me on YouTube.

Self-made millennial, same name also on TikTok. And you can also follow me on LinkedIn. linkedin/madelinemann. And of course you can find lots of templates and free classes and workbooks and all that kind of stuff for you on madelinemann.com. 

[00:45:30] Joseph: Excellent. And with that, um, one more, thank you for the road and to our audience as well.

It is my honor and privilege to be able to collect this information to provided with all of you. So with that take care and we will check in soon.

Thanks for listening. You might've found this show on many number of platforms, apple podcasts, Spotify, Google play, stitcher, or right here on Debutify. Whatever the case, if you enjoy this content and want to help us thrive, please take a few moments to leave a review on apple podcasts or wherever you think is best.

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Joseph Ianni

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