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Marc Chapon Part Two - Reignite Passion And A Guide To Pinterest

calendar 2021-10-05 | microphone 76minutes Listening Time
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Marc Chapon used to be a Chef in a Michelin starred restaurant in Paris. Three years ago, he left his job to create his first E-commerce store. He is now making 6 figures income monthly thanks to E-commerce only. Marc’s success story has inspired “Spocket” to write articles about him. Marc is not your typical “guru” and is well known to be brutally honest. He strives to teach his students how to build a sustainable business by working with local suppliers and advertise products on unsaturated platforms such as Pinterest. Marc is a Founding Member and active participant in The Dropshipping Council.

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Tags: #Debutify #marcchapon #pinterest

[00:00:00] Marc Chapon: The next step is to have your own brand, have hundred percent control, have your own products. I think there's something satisfying about creating something from scratch. Something is unique. It is yours. You know that it's not like drop shipping products from other suppliers. This really excites me. It's always a bit scary. Obviously, you starting something new, you don't know nobody that was doing it, and it's pretty new, but it is what it is. If you don't take any risks, you never gonna, you never gonna know.

[00:00:30] Joseph: You're listening to Ecomonics, a Debuify podcast. Your resource for one of the kinds of insights into the world of e-commerce and business in the modern age. This is Joseph. I'll be presenting a wealth of industry knowledge from interviews with successful business people and our own state-of-the-art research.

Your time is valuable. So let's go.

This is an exciting milestone for me, Marc Chapon is the first to return to the program and it means a lot to me personally. As of this recording by the way, he's not the last. But for you, we have a fantastic episode. In addition to a crash course on doing Pinterest ads, which by the way, you might want to hop onto our video version when it's released, we also touch base with where his profession is taking him. There is nothing quite like using the knowledge, resources, and skills, develop and running an online business and take it to where each of us feel that it can be put to best use.. 

Marc Chapon, it is great to have you back. This is an Ecomonics first. We actually have a returning guest here on the show. So I just want you to know there's been a big, huge smile on my face last couple of days, uh, in anticipation of this, um, it means a lot to have you back because it means that either Ricky's paying guests under the table or you really enjoy the show and you wanted to come back.

So thank you for being here. 

[00:01:45] Marc Chapon: Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

[00:01:47] Joseph: Same here. Same here. So that's the good side is the excitement, the downside, you know, in, in the interest of my, uh, being honest with my audiences, I thought, well, what the hell am I going to talk about now that they're, now that they're back.

So, uh, so we spent the time, we just figured out what we want to talk about today. We definitely have a lot of value we want to share with the audience. Um, and to my audio listeners, I know how this feels to feel like once a show goes video, that you're being a screwed over. I've gone through this too.

It's everybody goes through this, but what we're going to show today will involve, um, a video component. So. We'll do our best to talk you through it to, but you might want to head on over to our video channel to get the full experience. So with that, Mark, uh, it has been, I counted nine months since we last spoke.

So how are things going with you? How are you doing? You look like you're living in a palace. 

[00:02:36] Marc Chapon: I'm in Paris right now. Uh, moving around. It's, you know, that's the beauty of what we do. Uh, and I was in Oracle a few weeks back now. I'm in Paris. Uh, yeah, things are going really well. Uh, working in a personal projects in e-commerce project related to food actually, uh, which is, you know, like I said, my passion, so it's really awesome to combine the two, um, and pretty much using all the money that I made from dollar shipping to create my own brand.

Um, so yeah, very excited about that. Uh, working still on the coaching, on my drop shipping stores and yeah, it could be, you can be happier. Everything's working really well. 

[00:03:12] Joseph: I can't help, but wonder, um, have you, do you still have contacts in the, in the restaurant industry or in the food industry at large? Uh, have you been, have you been hearing about, you know, what's been going on them cause it's been a year of, uh, for them to deal with, uh, what they've been dealing.

[00:03:28] Marc Chapon: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah. I have a lot of friends in industry. Uh, it was extremely tough for a lot of them, for some of them in France actually was easy because they actually got some money from the, you know, friends to, uh, to do, to keep going. And they were actually making more money than when they were actually working.

Uh, so now they actually struggling more now than during the pandemic. Uh, but in all the countries, it was, it was horrific, it was awful. It was awful, you know, like for most people. Um, and it was really bad and it kind of. A lot of people. I mean, there's a lot of businesses, restaurants that went bankrupt, you know, and they really understood how important it is to have an econ store to do delivery and things like this.

And some of them actually made a lot of money with delivery using Deliveroo, Uber eats and services like that bus. Yeah. It was definitely a challenging time, but that's how it is in business. You know, it's always going to be changing. You always have to adapt and it's not going to stay the same anyway. 

[00:04:24] Joseph: Um, yeah, I don't want to stay on a downer over too long, but my father was telling me about one of his friends owns this. He owned past tense, a, uh, a wing place here, uh, in, in north York. And, uh, he, he had, he ended up, had to shut down and ended up with about $300,000 worth of debt just on, on property expenses.

And the thing was is that his target market, even if he had adapted and he had started selling things online through Uber eats his market, doesn't really do that. I don't know, truckers, like they don't really use the internet all that much. So it wasn't just a difficulty of the restaurants having to adapt.

But as also the customer base, uh, have being a willing, being willing to adapt as well as for them, they wanted to go to the bar. They want to experience, watch stuff on TV drink. So yeah, not everybody made it, which is unfortunate. As you say you're turning, you know, your, your, your, your passion for food into an e-commerce project.

Do you want to let us, uh, is there anything else you can tell us about this? About what. 

[00:05:21] Marc Chapon: Of course I've actually obviously talked about it to my business partner yesterday, and I said, I'm going on this podcast? Uh, tomorrow, should I talk about the idea? And he said, yeah, I said, he said, we actually do. Uh, it's going to push us to go even faster.

So it's good. So, so yeah, so pretty much if you guys are familiar with the concept of masterclass, the website, masterclass.com. So we following the same kind of concept, but with only cooking and food. So we can, uh, uh, do masterclasses with famous chefs in France, in the us and different countries. Uh, and people should teach cooking.

You know, I have this amazing show and these amazing chefs teach cooking, uh, on our platform. But our platform is only going to be focused on food. Pastries are pretty much the arts of culinary arts. Um, and yeah, that's the, that's what the business plan is about. Um, pretty much those digital products. Uh, we going to make the films and the masterclass ourselves, uh, you know, working with chefs directly.

And then we see demand advertising in the marketing for our platform. 

[00:06:24] Joseph: Well, that's a that's that's terrific. And it just goes to show one of the, uh, you know, long-standing premises of people, findings, uh, success in e-commerce is that you get to do the things that you really want to do and have the means and the resources to realize it as, uh, as well as you expect it to be in your own mind.

[00:06:42] Marc Chapon: Yeah. I mean, to me drop shipping or, you know, especially drop things you need is an introduction to e-commerce and having you on brand, you know, Joe's shipping is amazing. Cause the only difference is you don't have any inventory, but obviously you lack a bit of control, but that's okay because it's when you stop, you don't have a lot of money.

Um, and it's amazing because you don't need much money to start drop shipping, but then. I feel like that's the next step. You know, the next step is to have your own brand have hundred percent control. Um, have you own products? I think there's something satisfying about, you know, creating something from scratch.

Uh, something is unique is yours, you know, that is not just like drop shipping products from other suppliers. This really excites me. So, yeah. And it's not just not right now. It's not about the money. It's more about doing something that I, that I love, um, that I don't always eat, but like to do something that is interesting.

My passion number one. Uh, and just combining those two passions, I think is just terrific. So I'm very excited about this. It's always a bit scary. Obviously you starting something new, you don't really know nobody that you know is doing it and it's pretty new, but this is what it is. If you're not taking any risks, you never gonna, never gonna know.

So I prefer not to actually spend that money like this than just buying something, you know, silly or whatever. And then, yeah, the second investment. 

[00:07:54] Joseph: One last thing I'm just wondering about, because my cooking skills are lacking to be charitable. So would it be like, for instance, a, a course on soups or a course on dinners?

Like how would it be organized? Exactly. Like, for me, soups is something that I would ever want to get good at. 

[00:08:08] Marc Chapon: It's like, it's more like a premium experience since we're going to work with like famous chefs, small going to be around their famous recipes, but to do it, I know. Simple way for, uh, you know, for everybody to, to make.

Cause most of the time it's actually pretty simple to make. It's just, they make it complicated, but you can actually be negative in a simple way. So yeah, definitely going to be soups. They're going to be dishes, desserts. I mean, everything we're going to cover everything. Is that going to depend on the chef?

We have this new space, three chef probably gonna work with, and he, uh, he's really well known with pies and making fruits, uh, like kind of cakes that look like fruits and things like this. So again, obviously we're going to talk about this, but an older chefs that specialize in soups or specialized in entries or whatever that we're going to cover these of course.

Um, and it's supposed to be unique. It's not going to be like, uh, you know, I can find on YouTube. That's not the, it's not the goal was we're not gonna make any money out of this, uh, is to really do like a unique experience with a master. Something that you would usually pay thousands of dollars because they do master classes.

You can go learn from them. Charge you a 5k for it and us, it's going to be the same experience, but digital with, you know, beautiful, beautiful scenery, beautiful, uh, like a beautiful film. So it's, yeah, that's, that's pretty much the idea and just try to really generate emotions have, because that's the thing, I think our strongest point on this, it's like we both worked me and my department, we worked in the industry and the food industry.

So we know, uh, what people love. You know, we, we love food ourselves, so we know what people are. We know what people want to see, and that's how we're going to create our products. That's how we gonna, you know, do a things to make it feel emotional with the music, the way we filmed the food, the way, you know, and that's that I'm very excited.

[00:09:51] Joseph: And yeah know, I, I still remember, um, it helps that I, you know, read through our transcript, uh, yesterday, you know, I still remember, you know, how, uh, how important creativity, uh, of this is too, and how much of that can come through, uh, in, in making food. And so it's, it's good to see. Um, it's good to see that coming to fruition.

And also you just, you remind me what we'll get into, I'm going to get into like the econ stuff in a moment, but I just remember this story. So I don't know if you ever remember this TV show. I'm sure it's still around, um, called chopped where like every round a chef would get. So I remember I feel so terrible for this, for this one lady, she was like a hash expert.

She was really gonna to making hashes. And I think it was like the second or third round. One of the other chefs, she would make a hash like every round, uh, because I was her gimmick. And then on the third round, another chef says, you know, I'm going to make a hash too. And she got eliminated because his hash turned out to be better than the so-called hash master.

And I just wanted to express solidarity with her because she got a screwed over on television by that guy. And I just feel so bad for her. 

[00:10:48] Marc Chapon: Yeah, well, this is what it is. Yeah. It's a ruthless ruthless says industry, especially.

[00:10:53] Joseph: All right. So to, to catch your audience up, I have to, I never really had to use this rule before, because this is the first, but I expect my audience to listen to the previous episodes.

I don't want to use any of your time just to. You know, tell us everybody tell everybody about yourself again. No, no, no. We're not going to do that. Uh, but we are going to do is just, uh, continue on with the threads that we established in the lab in the last one. So we know that your expertise lies in Etsy.

We know that, uh, lies in Pinterest. And one of the things about, um, Pinterest, uh, especially in light of everything that's going on in Facebook right now and how difficult it is to maintain a consistent revenue on Facebook is that Pinterest ads are consistent. You, you know, you make them, and then they stick around and that consistency can, can build up over time.

So in the nine months that we've last talked, has that held water has have those Pinterest ads managed to managed to maintain consistency, or have they perhaps run into issues that you had to resolve? 

[00:11:47] Marc Chapon: That's the thing it's like you said, it's been nine months. Uh, and I have campaigns now that I've launched, I think five.

Five six campaign I've launched, uh, two years ago. And they're still running to this day and making me a profit every everyday. So obviously they're not as strong as they were before we meaning, like I'm not scaling as hard as before. Um, but still they're still making me thousands of tens of thousands per months, uh, you know, profit without doing anything.

And that's two years without, you know, doing any tweaks, anything to them. Uh, to me that's just insane. I prefer to actually make less than have something that works for years like that, rather than just making a lot and they lose everything or making a lot and just not making anything the next month. Um, so yeah, so it's still extremely consistent, obviously, uh, with this iOS updates, we were only worried.

Uh, that's going to affect every platform, but from what I can see, it's not affecting Pinterest that much. Um, it's just, the platform is different than Facebook. Pinterest. People are actually looking to buy things. Uh, you know, they, they actually look, they're looking for ads most of the time as well. So it's not having the same effect on Facebook where people don't really like ads.

You can take them by surprise, you know? Um, so I think that's why, um, it's not having such a bad effect on, on Pinterest. It might slow them down. I don't really, I don't, I'm not really feeling it in my, my people working with me and people that I teach. I don't feeling it as well. Um, but yeah, it's working well, super consistent.

So yeah. 

[00:13:17] Joseph: One of the things that I think about Facebook too, cause you say people don't want to look at ads. I think one of the issues too, is that even when they see the ads, a lot of the ads come across that. Like copied and pasted say from, from alley express video and, and, and the quality to them.

There's just not a lot of 'em that doesn't seem to be a lot of effort into them now. And I've gotten conflicting opinions on this. I just spoke to somebody last week, who said, you know what? You just use them to, to get you started, uh, cause they still can be effective. So what what's been, so for one we'll we'll get into, I know we wanted to do some, some screen-sharing on Pinterest, so we're starting to work our way towards that.

But, um, what have been the, I guess, the ground rules for making a Pinterest ad effective then are these specifically, um, images or are there also video ads on the platform as well? 

[00:14:02] Marc Chapon: Of course you could do video ads, could be carousel ads, you can do a picture ads as well. I do mostly pictures, a single pictures, but videos work well, depends on the product again, if you need to explain how it works, then the video is great.

If not, uh, pictures, uh, speaks a thousand words, it's very easy to convince people with a big picture and the picture looks nice. Um, so yeah, I would definitely go for a picture. I think, like you said, we're going to do a screen share where I'm actually going to, uh, show an ad that I've, that I've, that I've created and then a lounge, the beginning of the campaign.

So just the targeting for that ad, just to give people an idea, uh, on how we're doing it. And pretty much like a mini course, like a free mini course. Uh, I think this, yeah, this, this people will like that. 

[00:14:46] Joseph: Okay, well, I'm happy to jump into this and then as we go, I'll certainly have, uh, uh, more questions that'll pop up. So you'll bear with me.

I'm just going to make Mark the host. All right. Ready when you are. 

[00:14:59] Marc Chapon: So this is an ad that actually a launch on Pinterest. So it's for a Crescent moon necklace. Uh, this is a product that we found on Etsy that is actually was working extremely well. And if you know me, if you follow my product research strategy, you know, that I find products by, uh, looking at reviews.

So recent reviews. So let's say you are on Etsy. Um, you see a product that you like. You're going to check the reviews and make sure that it's reviews about this product and not all the products or the products of the same seller. Um, and you want to look for reviews that are recent, but every single day.

So if your product has reviews every single day, it means that there's a lot of demand for the product. It means that people are really looking, you know, buying it, uh, and then leaving a review, especially that most people that actually buy the product, I'm not leaving a review. So, um, so yeah, so that's what you want to do.

Uh, so that's how we found this product. So you can see here. So this is a jewelry product and necklace. Um, that people really like, and obviously this is like a moon shaped, uh, necklace with some kind of stones. Don't remember exactly the. 

[00:16:06] Joseph: Word that's coming to my mind is gemstones. 

[00:16:08] Marc Chapon: Yeah. Yeah. That's right. I know I'm not a, yeah, not a. 

[00:16:12] Joseph: Well, I only know a few of them because of Diablo.

So I think those counters diamonds. 

[00:16:16] Marc Chapon: Yeah, for sure. So you can see here, uh, that's the format of the ad? Very simple. Uh, that's the thing with Pinterest. I don't like to complicate things. It's not like on Facebook where a lot of people try to have a lot of texts and, you know, big discounts or whatever on the image.

I like to keep it simple. So like it's simple, clean image, people know what is. That's great. If again, if the product needs explanations, if it's a, if it's a gadget or anything that you need to to talk about, because people won't understand why it is right away, then it would be great. Um, so, okay, so that's the creative and here we have, uh, the ad copy, which is pretty, pretty simple.

Okay. You don't have to follow exactly this model, but, uh, you can see here for the first two, two, uh, sentences. What we did is obviously because it's shaped like moon, did you go to the moon and back? And these people actually really resonated to this. People really liked this, um, and thought it was great.

We have a lot of cool, cool comments, um, on this. And of course you do. So the reason why we ask the question again, I'm not a copywriting expert, but this works for me and for my students as well. It's just to generate some emotion to really make them. Think about their, their loved one, uh, the other half, and just like start to feel some kind of butterflies in the stomach.

And, uh, and is that, that's what we're trying to achieve here. So of course you do. And then we talk about a little bit of the, we talk about the necklace a little bit. So necklace is a symbol of balanced love. It kind of confirms why we, uh, try to do in the beginning again, to talk, to generate a bit more emotions and to explain what the product is about and pretty much what it's going to mean when they're going to offer it to their loved one.

Right? So they're going to, oh, this is a symbol of balance and love is exactly what I want for, you know, my, my, my wife or my, uh, girlfriend. Um, and then for the rest, this is, this is like, It's up to you. I like to put a made in the USA because usually with people, people are patriots and they be like, when we do this, and this is actually made in USA, you don't want to lie.

Um, but that's something I like to include when it's the case. Uh, 50% of today, uh, only get yours today. This the 50% off, you don't have to do it. Ah, there's something we've tested. Uh, we've tested different things and this one was working pretty well. Um, but you don't have to do this. You can, you can just remove that and just say, uh, you know, get yours today.

It's good to have again, a call to action. Uh, You know, get people to take action and go on your site. So again, I'm not a copywriting expert, I'm sure a lot of people, you know, it's getting copywriting expert. We said that, you know, you could definitely improve this and that's true. Um, but this works, this is a simple method that we use for pinterest and is working well, obviously, uh, you could do a sort of long format copy, which is, you know, you're going to be talk more in details and more like a, tell a story with an introduction, a middle and an end.

Uh, that's something we like to do also with this kind of products do where you could just say, uh, pretty much try to, uh, talk about when that person met their husband and girlfriend, so how they felt the first time. So how you, you just saw her the first time and that's how you felt. And just again, try to make them, uh, go back through those, those emotions again.

So that's another way of doing. Uh, so again, nothing crazy, just very simple. Um, and that's, that's what I like to go for. So I test something like this, and then it's all about the advertising sort of about the targeting them a graphic and the strategy that we're going to use, uh, you know, to again, show this ad.

[00:19:47] Joseph: So the term, um, do you love her to the moon and back. Uh, I'm going to have to, uh, uh, go on record and say, I said that term to my girlfriend, um, and, and different terminology, I think resonates with different couples because there was just terms that have a special significance. Again, like another one that I had said, uh, is, uh, I love you to pieces.

And to commemorate that I made a custom puzzle where I took a bunch of images. I had them custom printed on a puzzle. And so it's, it's up on our wall. I love you to pieces. And so now it's in pieces. Uh, everything was great except like 26% of the impeach was black. And so there was a part of the puzzle where we're just sitting there with a bunch of black pieces going with them, aside from that, the rest of the rest of it went went well.

But I think that's one thing that, that resonates with me is that these different terminology can, um, can, can, can appeal to somebody and, and. I dunno, it might be, it might come across as, uh, as coordinator for some, but I think that is also an endearing quality and it's an honest quality and, and, and obviously it's a, it's an ideal fit for the, for the product as well.

So what I'm wondering is have you found maybe terminology or slogans or not quite delivered in the moon and back, but like other versions of that, and maybe there is a product that could, uh, align with that very well. So the, the copy will reach a person first and then the product comes along after. 

[00:21:13] Marc Chapon: Sorry. I'm not sure. I understood the question really. 

[00:21:17] Joseph: Okay. Let's just, let's just say. Okay. So let me just put it this way. Let's just say for instance, there was another term because I love you from the roots to the leaves, which is a tree analogy. Um, w w have you ever found terms in, see, I wonder if there's a product that would actually go really well with the, with that terminology, like copy first product second.

[00:21:34] Marc Chapon: Okay. As you know, as you go product first, uh, copy second. Because the products and the marketing is in my opinion, more important. I mean, everything's important. Like I said, it's a puzzle, you need every piece of the puzzle. But to me, that's how I do it. I look for a product first and then I see with the potential of the product, how I can advertise it, that's how I do it.

Um, and, and to me, that's the logical way of doing it. Um, but this one, yeah, I, I, this one that resonated with me as well, cause I'm kind of romantic as well. And I like, uh, I really like this one and I thought it was really cool because of the shape of the, of the, of this necklace. Uh, but I realized people like, you know, we all know that people are emotional beings.

Uh, we are not beings of logic. We are beings of emotion, so react and resonate with emotion. So it's, it's extremely powerful, especially with jewelry. Um, you could say all, it's a gift for your, you know, your, your friend, whatever, but it works better. We talk about a girlfriend or a gift that you can offer to spouse.

Um, and that's always the angle that I'm trying to take when I'm selling jewelry for example. 

[00:22:45] Joseph: A couple of other things I'm wondering about this one. So one of them is I think the term is camel copy where the, for every letter is capitalized and it's on the first sentence, but it's not on the rest. Have you noticed, like if the entire thing were capitalized in that way, uh, if have you tried testing it that way to see if even it's a, it's a subtle, uh, change has that by any chance, um, uh, had an effect on the response by the audience.

So you see how it said in the first sentence you see, do you love her to the moon and back, and except with exception of her, all of it is, uh, it is capitalized, but then the rest of the sentence is it's. 

[00:23:23] Marc Chapon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. I know what you mean. Uh, to be honest, this is something we do. Uh, I've tried, I've tried both, to be honest, it doesn't really have a, in my experience.

Both works. It's not like if you do this, um, all you do the other way. It's not going to work at all. That's not true. It's just the, to me, it looks too small pleasing to the eye. Um, but it doesn't really doesn't mean that you have a huge impact. I mean, not on my opinion, again, I, you know, I didn't run any like really thorough, uh, study on this or whatever, but in my experience it doesn't have a huge impact then. 

[00:23:59] Joseph: Yeah. Yeah. And, and one thing I noticed too is, so it says the first 50 characters are what usually show up in feeds. So for that reason, that that first sentence I think is, uh, it's the key one. And so I think there's a. 

[00:24:09] Marc Chapon: Yeah, exactly. That's like to me, and in general for what worked for me is, is really like to keep it simple and just have a powerful, um, first in first sentence.

Um, and you just need to be subtle, you know, and this is not, you don't need to be a copywriting expert to understand that you just need to have some. And just to a bit of research, um, and just try to find something that resonated with your audience. That's it, you know, like try to read reviews on the internet.

I do things about the product to see how, what people say about this thing and try to craft a message that resonate with the audience. Um, but that's, yeah, again, you don't need to be a copywriting expert to do that. You can, anybody can do that.

[00:25:01] Joseph: A couple of other things I'm wondering about this. Um, and, and this is me getting very, like, granular about it, but, you know, I just, in my opinion, no matter as well. Um, so the, the placement of the emojis, it's always on the end of the sentence. Um, so again, is this another one of those situations where have you seen, like, if you were to put, say the moons at the beginning, uh, or the heart at the beginning, if there's any noticeable difference or is it the, is this the ideal place to place the emojis.

[00:25:28] Marc Chapon: It's just more aesthetic to do it this way. In my opinion, it looks a bit weird when you put it in front of the, of the, of the sentence goes, it's like starting a sentence. You starting with a capital letter. So starting with the emoji, to me sound, it looks a bit weird. Um, and that's why no most marketers are doing this way.

Of course I've tried different things, but again, to me, this one looks the cleanest. It just looks good again. Doesn't mean if you put it in the form of the sentence, it's just gonna, uh, break or make or break your campaign. But as just it small look smoother, just works better to me. 

[00:26:06] Joseph: Yeah. I think the reason why, like, I would be tempted to try that for myself is if I were doing like a bullet point copy.

Uh, but instead of just a boring bullet points, each, each emoji would be one. So that, that would be my, my, my approach to it. If I were to do it. 

[00:26:20] Marc Chapon: Yeah, so that, that I agree if you do it like a bullet point less than you, you want to have, that's actually a great idea, but here that's not the case since we've pretty much, you know, like writing sentences, answering questions, I mean, a question and an answer.

Um, it would look a bit weird, but in your case, like you just said with bullet points is definitely a good idea. We've done this for product descriptions, not for ad copy of product descriptions, where we talk about the product itself and what it does and you know how what's going to change for you if you get it.

Um, we, uh, we do, we do do that and that's cool again, if it's used it's it's, for me, everything is about aesthetics. So it needs to look clean. And if it's just too much and it looks overwhelming, uh, yeah, especially too, because you know, I'm, I'm, I'm European and in, in our, in our culture, it's a bit different than in the us with advertising.

They go really, really hard to go really, really happy with the, you know, by now and things like this in Europe, it doesn't really want. Uh, as much. So we have to adapt to advertise Europe. E-com to Europeans. You can just use the same strategy that you use in the US because people actually get very annoyed with this.

Um, it's just a different culture, you know? 

[00:27:31] Joseph: Yeah. I mean, it's a, in the US a in, in the west it's if you don't do that, then no, one's going to even have a chance to pay attention because everyone is vying for that attention. Okay. Yeah. That checks out. Um, so two of the things I'm wondering about this, one of them is, have you ever, so you say that because it's an image, it doesn't necessarily need a video because there's, you don't have to like instruct people on a, on a necklace.

Um, but have you attempted video just to see if it would enhance the, the visual aspects. Yeah. 

[00:27:58] Marc Chapon: So it's something we do when we, uh, when we test and it's a product that doesn't need a video. I go for a picture. Then when the product starts working, if, if it starts working and we start targeting sales and it works, you know, month after month, then yeah, we definitely invest in all their creative videos and stuff, because then we have more people seeing our ads.

We do a lot of retargeting and it's interesting to have videos, to retarget people, to show them that somebody's wearing the product. And, uh, and yeah, but like the video obviously is going to be different. It's just going to be somebody like a woman or wearing the necklace, a close-up and something again.

And we try going to try to make people fit emotional with some, like a very, like a classic classical music or something like that, that would really resonate with people. Um, this would be a good idea. Um, but yeah, like you said, you can definitely go for a video, but the reason why I do, I, I said this is because most people don't have a big budget in the beginning and you don't need it in the beginning.

You just can't stop with this. And this would work really well. But then of course, when you start getting some money, some cash flow, it's good to invest that money in trading and making new creatives, uh, to recycle the creatives and doing new, different things, especially for re-targeting different platforms.

[00:29:09] Joseph: And then the last one I'm wondering about this is because as you say, a lot of this is about how it resonates with the customers and how, um, it, uh, it speaks to them on such an emotional level. Um, it seems to me that it would yields and pretty good user generated content. I don't know about unboxings in particular, but, um, have you, uh, do, is this part of your strategy, do you receive user generated content like testimonials reviews?

I imagine. Uh, pretty Ashley, you said, did you use the reviews to decide if the product is, um, where they have your investment, but are you receiving any UGC, like from customers who have bought from you? 

[00:29:45] Marc Chapon: Yeah. Yeah, of course. Like this is again huge for re-targeting, uh, not really for cold traffic. Um, it's mostly for retargeting because again, if you just use a unboxing video for cold traffic, probably like, what the hell is this?

I don't even know what it is, but for retargeting, when people saw you out in this, looked at it a few times, or they watch like 50% of the video or the interesting, interested, interested in it? Um, yes, definitely. We had some, uh, people doing some unboxing, uh, usually where we motivate, motivate them to do it.

So by giving them a discount or actually offering them, uh, the product, uh, you know, for free. Um, and yeah, those, those are extremely, extremely good, obviously normal reviews as well. Uh, very important, but video reviews are. You know, the, the, the RI on and on then, like the, it's just, it's just crazy. People love it because it's, it's a genuine, um, you know, human experience.

So people can relate to that. They can relate to somebody you're opening, like packaging and they own home. And, uh, you know, with their emotions again, because that's, it's all about emotion. They open the package, they just, they cry or they yell, they laugh. And that's what it's about.

[00:30:56] Joseph: I mean, especially, you know, if, um, the, the buyer's giving it to somebody else.

Right. You know, I buy it for my girlfriend. And so you see the connection between the two of them. 

[00:31:05] Marc Chapon: Exactly. Exactly. So that's, that's the, that's the, uh, that, that's the. And it's definitely what we, uh, what we're looking for. And it works really well yet. 

[00:31:13] Joseph: Uh, I got to say, we got quite a bit out of, uh, uh, just I one image there.

I was like, oh, I hope this, I hope this doesn't last two seconds, but you know, there's, there's a lot to think about. And, and I appreciate, you know, saying that you, you don't have to be an expert copywriter. And as you were saying that, it made me think of like, you know, I know we have some professional copywriters who listen and even asked to be on the show.

So I don't want to, I'm not targeting them when I say this, but I think whether someone is a pro copywriter or is not a pro copywriter, I think if they have this elitist mindset where they really feel like they're trying to convince the customer, or they're trying to tell the customer what to think that I think is the, is the more pressing issue is, you know, don't be elitist.

You're really, we need to be on the same level as the customer and say, you know, we, this is something that we would use this on the, we believe in. And we just want you to, to share in that same feeling, because you don't want to talk down to somebody. And then also get an emotional reaction out of them.

[00:32:06] Marc Chapon: Yeah. That's why I tell people like to choose a niche they are passionate about, because then it's easy to talk about it. It's easy to talk about what I can relate to relate to the customers. You leave in the niche. So you can talk about a product. Like, for me, like, like I said, I'm an emotional guy. So when I see a product like this, I think about my girlfriend or something.

And it's just makes me think about it. And, and, and that's how I come up with those sentences, of course, like a cup of coffee, right. I was going to do a better job. And the, the, you know, they do amazing jobs and it's, it's great. And of course you should work with them, uh, when you want some money, because it's going to take your business to another level as well.

That's, that's amazing. Uh, but obviously when you start, you don't have that budget. So. You should, you should save that money and do it yourself, especially in the beginning. You don't even know if it's going to work right away. So if you don't, again, you don't need those skills at the beginning, it's just to scale.

And then after that, you can outsource of course. Um, but yeah, like I said, um, living in the niche, knowing what you're talking about and because I have remember having a few students that tried the pet niche, because I said I had a pet in the store and they just said, oh, it's going to work then because Mark's done it.

And they didn't even have, they never had a pet in their lives. Um, and it was just awkward the way they were riding that computer was just awkward. You know, they, they didn't get it. So when did they try to be cute? They were just, it was just cringy. I was weird and people not gonna resonate. You need to speak the language, you know, you need to speak the language.

Um, and if you're doing something, I don't know. Like you said, like we talked about before the call, we talked about, what was it, Cobra Kai if you're interested in martial arts or are you going to know like the, the, the words that people use in this industry, and today you're going to relate to those people.

If you don't know it, just going to think it's weird. Why are, why doing this? Why are they doing that? You know, it's same thing with every industries. And that's why I urge people to do some things, you know, what I'm talking about. 

[00:34:05] Joseph: Yeah. And, and I would say, um, even more, uh, specifically, you know, it's one thing to own a pet, but it's a very different thing to talk about.

A pet that I, uh, had an own specific, like I've had newts, I've had fish, I have had a cat, had a Guinea pig. I've never had a dog. So I don't being a dog owner is a whole different culture than being an owner of any other pet. 

[00:34:26] Marc Chapon: There's a big passion. Is it? It's like a, almost a kilt to and that's the, it's a scary thing. Everything in life is like, you don't know what you don't know, you know? And it's like, you might think, you know, because we all have this ego or we're like, well, we are, I know what it is to have a baby. We don't know. You don't know until you experience it. And when you experience it, then you realize, oh my God, I know now.

Uh, and that's why I tell people don't, if you, if you've never done something, don't think you're smarter than you are. And like all you're going to figure it out. You want a, you just choose some something else that you, you understand that you master. 

[00:35:00] Joseph: Yeah. Like, um, I I'm, I'm going down the hallway to put the garbage in the shoot and one of my neighbors, uh, we, we, we greet and then his dog comes running out to greet me a Rover. I don't know exactly what breed it is, but very cute tries to jump up and just, uh, you know, it just hits my legs. And I know I spend to spend a couple of moments spending it and then move on with my day. And, and I think what happens is we get to experience oftentimes the best part of pet ownership through somebody else.

Cause we get to see, you know, we get to greet the dog at dependent, but we're not the ones that cleaned the puke off the floor. We're not the ones that have to pick up the dogs, uh, shit, when they're going through the park. So all of that lived experience only comes through if you've lived that experience yourself.

[00:35:40] Marc Chapon: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But to be honest, it's, it's not even annoying. Like of course it's not pleasurable, but when you love your dog, when you love your pet, you don't care about this. And it's never like, you're like, oh my God, I don't want to do this. It's certain. It's not like it's different because there's love involved again.

So it's like, it's like, uh, you know, for most people it's their babies. So it's like, they just like, of course they're going to be annoyed from time to time. But as soon as they're going to calm, it depends when I come and just like, show them some love. They just going to say, oh, you know, they're just going to forget.

Everything is just a yeah. So it's, it's definitely not, uh, it's not easy. Of course it's like our responsibilities and stuff, but it's, it's it's for me, it's, it's an amazing experience. 

[00:36:19] Joseph: Well, even that is a, is an insight that I didn't really occur to me all that much is, you know, the, the overwhelming power of love that people have for their pets, just overwrites, whatever, um, minor inconveniences, if once in a while, you know, dog wakes them up at 3:00 AM in the morning.

Okay. That can be annoying, no matter how much you love a dog, but for the most part, it's the, the, the, the, the feeling of care for them, uh, overrides a lot of this. 

[00:36:43] Marc Chapon: It does. It's like, you know, I'm sure when you were younger and you go man, with you, you get an argument with your mom or your dad. And, uh, and you know, it doesn't last long.

If you, if you have a good relationship, you know what I mean? Like, just like the next day, the next two hours. And mom's going to come in and kiss you. And as over right. The same thing with a dog, like you can't be mad. At, uh, you know, an animal that doesn't really understand, they just, they woke you up just because they love you and they just want to play like you can't be mad.

So of course you're going to be mad for an hour, but then after that you actually signed it. 

[00:37:14] Joseph: I just want to ask about the baby needs as well, because we all were, um, infants, but we also don't really recall, um, many of those experiences. So it's, it's, it's a, it's a, it's an interesting metric to go by. Cause it's not like everybody was an animal or maybe some people were animals in a previous life, but I don't want to get into that.

If any Fox can, are listening and feel free to contact me podcasts at dot com. And I guess it's the same thing in the baby niece, even though we were babies ourselves, um, we don't have the. The, the perspective of being someone who has a care for the child. It's a very different thing as well. 

[00:37:48] Marc Chapon: Yeah, exactly.

You, I mean, I'm not a dad, uh, but I, my, my best friend just got a baby recently and I got a baby,

sorry for my English.

Uh, and it just taught me and everybody sent me the same thing. I thought it was to shoot. I mean, it's just changed everything. It just changed your perspective. It's not about you and your mouth anymore. It's about him or her. Um, and I can understand, sorry about the noise. 

[00:38:20] Joseph: I, you have to forgive my, um, my, my Western ignorance, but was that an ambulance or an ice cream?

[00:38:26] Marc Chapon: This is definitely not an ice cream truck. It's an ambulance, but this is a different 

[00:38:30] Joseph: in the us, right? 

Yeah. It sounds different. But the, uh, the premise is still the same. It's still, yeah. 

[00:38:37] Marc Chapon: So, uh, yeah. So do you like, uh, do you want us to go back to, uh, to Pinterest a bit, we could do a little get, start, like talking about the, uh, the ad, the campaign lounge or something like that.

That'd be doing. 

[00:38:49] Joseph: Absolutely. I'm, uh, I'm eager to see this, so I have just converted host duties over to you. Uh, ready when you are. 

[00:38:57] Marc Chapon: All right. So we are now in the, uh, Pinterest, a builder campaign builder. Okay. So this is a Pinterest ad account, pretty much, uh, for one of my stores. And, uh, we just gonna pretty much do the targeting, um, for the product they use your style. We just talked about the, the moon necklace. Uh, we're not going to do the whole campaign because obviously it's going to take a lot of time. I'm not sure we have enough time to do that, but we're just going to do targeting just to show people how this works and the difference, the main differences with Facebook.

Yeah. So, yeah. So we're going to go for this. Uh, we're going to select conversions, so that's something you're not going to have right away. Uh, in the beginning, it's going to be, uh, when are you going to have either traffic or, uh, things like this because, um, they just, they want you to get more data before you were a conversion campaign that you can actually send them an email to them to unlock it, or you can send, it can run traffic ad and, um, you know, a bit of traffic and then I'll get for you.

Okay. So we're going to continue. So we're going to hit continue here. And now we are in our, uh, campaign. Uh, the campaign builder. So you can see here, it's a bit similar to Facebook. You have the targeting, you have the budget and schedule the optimization delivery and the ads. All right. So we're not going to create the ads already create, I mean, we didn't create it, but we showed you the ad that we would use.

Um, so if 

[00:40:28] Joseph: We've reverse engineered it, so yeah. 

[00:40:29] Marc Chapon: Yeah, exactly. So we're going to have a PDF targeting slides and we're going to go for select your own, choose your own. Okay. Which is here. Um, and then we're going to go on keywords and interests and that's where everything, um, that that's where we're going to choose all interests and keywords.

So that's the main difference, uh, with Facebook is that on, on Pinterest, you have access to keywords just like on a Google. So it's huge because you actually are getting warm traffic, people that are looking for exactly what you want to sell, which is amazing. So, uh, here, what I like to do is actually is combined both interest and keywords in the campaign, uh, Pinterest reps are going to tell you that you should just go for interests or keywords, but in my experience, it works best, uh, with interest in keywords the same time, especially when you're testing a product. All right. So we're going to go again for a, we're going to stop within the interest, start with the interest first.

So like you saw with selling this necklace, necklace, and it's all about the angle, how are we going to sell it? Right. So let's say, uh, we gonna, we actually want to palliate men for them to buy it for their spouse or their girlfriend. That's what we do. I think we're gonna either, you're gonna take, so you might tell me, oh yeah.

About. It's mostly women. So is it not where to target men? No, it's not. And that's the thing is because we there's still men using it obviously less than women, but because of what, what this actually this, um, because of this, um, there's actually less people advertising to men and it's kind of untapped. So you can, you can still find, uh, you know, make a good amount of money and having a successful ad by targeting men because they've ever seen less ads than women.

So we're going to go here and targeting target men. Uh, but first we're going to go for the interest. So, like I said, uh, we want to target people that obviously have a girlfriend or married, otherwise it's interesting to us. So most people, they will think they will look at the necklace. They're going to think, oh, this is nice.

Go full interest, necklace or keywords necklace. That's not what I want to do. I want to go for what kind of people would buy something like this. Right. So I'm going to go for, um, you know, we're going to play with it, like, like I'm just, I'm going to act like I've never used it so you can see how this works.

Okay. So when you talk married, you have wedding wedding planning, wedding wedding event, wedding sermon. Okay. So that's something we can do. If you go for wedding, people are married, uh, beyond their relationship. So they have a wife, uh, and a partner. Okay. Obviously they aren't, they're going to be most of them going to be interested in buying something cute for it.

Okay. So that's, again, the potential audience that you can do. Another thing you can do as well is go for people that have a baby, you know, they may be not married, but without a baby, we go for parenting parenting. Again, they have, they might do, they might do it on their own, but most of the time, you know, they, they have someone, so you go for parenting and you can see this.

So many things here, uh, parenting advice, uh, parenting, baby, baby gear, and things like this. And don't think about it. Just all baby gear. They're not going to be interested in the neck this, because this is baby gear. Again, just, you have to think a wider, okay. Dan Johnson, baby gear, therefore they have a partner and they might need to send something else.

That's how you. 

[00:43:57] Joseph: If I could just share an observation for a second, what I find well, I find interesting was, uh, so you typed in, um, And then the only interest that popped up, where was the wedding and the wedding is the beginning of a marriage. There was a lot that happens after it. It's just that the wedding is the most visual part of it.

Right. Dresses, the flowers and the, and the rice and all that. So I think what you're trying to do here is, um, you want to learn more of the story of this married couple. Do they have kids, did they become parents? You know, how many, how many kids do they have trying to get more of a sense of the avatar of the user?

[00:44:30] Marc Chapon: Yeah. And, uh, and yeah, that's what I want to do. I'm going to go for like the ideal customer and not just somebody who's uh, necklace. Cause then you're competing with everybody. Everybody's selling necklaces. You know, that's not what we want to do here. Um, so you can go for this, uh, then again, parenting. So you have so many things to test.

This is different on Facebook. You have less options are with interests, but you have a lot of options with keywords. We're going to do keywords after. Um, but right now we're just showing you a bit different things that you can do. Okay. Just like this is really an overview, just to give you an idea of how to use it.

Okay. Um, so we do parenting. There's another thing we could do if we can go for a relationship and now we get to see you gonna see, uh, we going to have relationship. We're going to have relationship quotes. She was another lot of things here. If you do relation, I have a few more things. If education knowledge.

Yeah. So you have relationship quotes, um, We go for boyfriends. See what we have here. Or girlfriend, boyfriend jeans. 

[00:45:31] Joseph: Did you try typing an anniversary? Uh, like I'm wondering what would happened if you typed in anniversary. 

[00:45:35] Marc Chapon: Yeah, of course. We just do that. So you can see your relationship quotes, matching couple outfit.

Uh, when I was, when I was in boyfriend, I think there was a Valentine's day. So another thing to do, uh, people that are interested in this, they're looking for a gift. That's another way of doing it. Uh, something romantic. So you say anniversary, right? So you have weddings. Uh, and again, it's the wedding part of it.

So, um, so yeah, so this is again, another way of doing it. Uh, then you could go for people that are interested in that that's another angle. So again, if you don't want to do for a gift for like couples and stuff, another angle would be because it's like shaped like a moon. So we go for more people that are interested in astrology and, you know, planets, you think that this, again, this would work.

Um, so you could do it here. I'm not sure there's going to be a love interest, to be honest, um, Astro science space and astronomy, you can have this astronomic, but yeah, this is not huge. You can see you and click. Yes, it's a smaller audience, but, uh, we, we don't have the keywords yet. Um, so yeah, so that's, uh, that's the, again, just one way of doing it.

So we're going to start now selecting. Um, so we're going to go for parenting. We're going to select the category and we're going to start, uh, then selecting similar keywords and showing you how to build the campaign. All right. So here we have, um, parenting, if you said parenting, let's see the audience. So this is actually 1,000,032.

Um, but we haven't selected the different countries yet. So when we're going to select more countries, it's probably going to be bigger. Um, so let's see. So now we have parenting them. Let me see on the demographic here. Well, we have, so here we only have the UK, so we're going to go for, what I usually do go for is US, United Kingdom, Canada, 

[00:47:23] Joseph: Australia.

[00:47:25] Marc Chapon: Uh, I don't usually go for New Zealand. Uh, I'm not getting really good results from it. So I prefer the big four. So you can see now the agents is huge. It's like 15 million. I like to keep it pretty small, like between one and 7 million. So right now this is obviously too big.Here we have actually all gender. So let's see when we go for female much better.

So actually this, it fits so perfect. You can see, you know, obviously it is mostly women on Pinterest. You can see that, but again, that's not a problem at all. Um, those people it's like, this is not like the total users is put in. It's the monthly active ads audience. So every month you're going to have this, this, uh, this audience.

So this is, this is more than enough. All right. Um, so, okay. So we, we selected the, uh, different demographics and stuff. Again. I like to keep it pretty broad. All languages again is fine. All devices fine as well. Uh, so now we're going to go back to the targeting. Yeah. We have 257. Okay. That's fine. We're going to keep it like this.

I'm going to the keywords and see how, um, our potential audience increases and how, you know, how I react. So now we're going to go again for, we were on parenting. So we could go for, um, you don't need to use the same keywords related to the same exact interests that you've used. You could do that something different is completely fine.

So maybe let's say if we go for, let's see, we go for a love. 

[00:48:48] Joseph: So I have a question for you. Are you using keywords to expand the audience size or reduce the audience size? It's going to expand it. Expand it. Okay. I would've thought reduced the audience size. Like you're trying to get more a specificity.

[00:49:01] Marc Chapon: Yeah. But you can't do that actually on the, on, it's not like on Facebook where you could narrow, you can not do that. Um, but it's fine because the keywords are very specific when people are looking for. Um, so it's like, you know, they already know what they want. Are you looking for a necklace? They already for like a gift.

So it's actually narrows that. Cause it, people are interested in, in, you know, in getting those things. So here love didn't get anything. All right. So we go here, we are in love feeling husband, all of us, all of these things are great. Okay. So, um, I see you could just select, uh, the first two that coming out.

So I like to go for 50 or something like that. So they say, um, Pinterest usually recommends 25. Um, as you go for like a set, uh. 

[00:49:48] Joseph: So much about human psychology too. What is love relationships? I want a relationship. 

[00:49:53] Marc Chapon: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And you're going to go, you might think all doubting love relationships.

Maybe not what you want, want to go for everything because you never know, you know? Uh, and it's sometime I had the weirdest, the weirdest, uh, results from that. 

[00:50:07] Joseph: Yeah, because it gave people there, you know, they're not in a, they're not in a great place. And then, you know, they just, they just meet somebody and then they just get this flood of emotions.

Yeah. 

[00:50:16] Marc Chapon: So, so yeah, we all know audience of 278 million, a 308, you know, that's, that's good. That's actually a good audience. We can leave it like this. Uh, we could maybe try to make it smaller we did with the interest. Um, so we go to selected parenting so you can see here. So if we do this, we select everything.

So let's go back to the, the audience. But if we go for parenting advice, then select a few, it's going to be smaller. Right. Um, but actually, um, let me see, I'm actually going to go for the whole thing because it's not that big actually. So I'm going to go for the whole thing and there we go. So yeah, that's pretty much.

That's pretty much how you do the targeting. Obviously there's different angles, unique angles you can use for different niches. That's how you do it for this specific niche, uh, for this product. And then obviously you test it with different, uh, different ads and so on, but that's a, that's how I do it.

That's my method, uh, different countries. And then you give it a few days because this is not like Facebook. It's not going to spend money right away. It's going to actually take some time, um, to spend. So it might take five days, six days, seven days, especially if you're using a custom bidding, not custom, sorry, manual bidding.

Um, and my tech sometimes, but that's just the way, that's just the way. 

[00:51:36] Joseph: And what kind of budget are people looking at when, uh, when they're setting up a campaign like this and, you know, cause you say it takes, takes some time for the, for them to, uh, align with the, with the, with the targeted. 

[00:51:47] Marc Chapon: It actually takes time not to align, but to spend.

So you actually go for between $10 and $20. You know, it doesn't even matter. Um, and it takes days before he actually spends just your, your, your daily budget. Um, that's different. So it's not like you need to spend $500 before it get sales. That's not how it is. Even though Pinterest is Pinterest says it's not true.

Um, but you can, you can get sales after $5 spent. If everything is aligned, if everything, you know, your store is good, you know, your campaign, your product, everything sign, you can get sales on the first day, but sometimes it takes days for Pinterest to spend your money. So you want to be patient and just.

But like I said, between 10 and $20 is usually the way to go. 

[00:52:33] Joseph: Yeah. Yeah. Well, and I think if anything, I think people would probably be happier to, to know that the money it takes some time to spend, rather than going on to other platforms and finding out the money was like, overspent. Like I thought I only put $200 in here.

How am I two grand now in the whole. 

[00:52:47] Marc Chapon: Yeah, it goes fast, but that's the cool thing about, about Pinterest is that actually goes slower. People might think it's not a good thing. It's actually a good thing. Cause it makes you. You have time to, to think things through, you know, and realizing, okay. Um, like, you know, how is it working and stuff?

You're not like just you wake up one day and you spend too much money. This is not how it works. So that's actually a good thing for me. Um, and, and I think it's, yeah, it's a great, it's a great thing. It's, it's more, there's a better, there's a, of. Um, but it's more consistent. Um, and it, you just have to be patient people, but the thing is, even with Facebook, if you're not patient, they get out of your money anyway.

So you need to, you need to do, you know, you kind of have some, uh, the reserve in just like take your time.

[00:53:33] Joseph: By the way, if you're a current user of Debutify or haven't tried us out yet, Debutify version three has been released and now is a good time to upgrade or get started as any. A streamlined user interface along with an ever increasing array of conversion boosting add ons is waiting for you to download today for free and start your journey. Who knows, maybe I'll be interviewing you before too long.

Something's popped up while we were while we were going through this. Um, so I think just a few things I just want to make sure. Um, so it was clear for me as well as for my. Is, um, the, these ads, um, you're, you're, you're funneling people to an Etsy posting. Uh, is that correct? Or is it to a website or I'm like, where, where are the transactions actually being made?

[00:54:21] Marc Chapon: No, to you up to your own website, to your own dropshipping or ecommerce website, doesn't really matter. You can do it. If you feel have an Etsy listing, if you work, if you're selling on Etsy, this is a tool, you know, like Pinterest is a tool just like Facebook, you could, it's just traffic, so you can send it to anywhere you want.

Um, but right now, the way I'm doing it and the way most people obviously drops to prison, uh, we'll do it is it's directly to your, your website. Um, but again, And let's see page or an Amazon page, um, then yeah. Why not? Like it's, it's, it's the same principle.

[00:54:56] Joseph: The other thing I'm wondering too about Pinterest is how much weight is it pulling organically.

And what I mean by that is, you know, if you have your own, you have your account and you have maybe images that you're sharing and people are finding those. I guess the equivalent would be say, if somebody finds like a Facebook page for, for the brand. And so they start being engaged, actively organically through there, and then maybe that raise it to a sale.

So in that sense, how has Pinterest that organic side, uh, worked for you?

[00:55:24] Marc Chapon: It works well. It started working well, and we already got some kind of. Uh, in the beginning to be an S I wasn't really posting anything on the, you know, accept ads, uh, I mean, pins that just are using as ads. Um, but then people resonated with the, with the ads, they just started purchasing.

And then we had a good amount of followers, one of my brand new I'm like 10 K, or when you get always, um, for like this brand and then yeah, people, people, people like it, and then they come back, they buy other things. Um, but in my experience, yeah, obviously you go faster by, by launching ads, uh, building your audience again, obviously you need to have the whole, all the pieces of the puzzle together and you have to good customer service, uh, good everything.

Cause if, if you cause some other bad experience in not. Um, and, uh, yeah, I was actually talking to one of my student is today. Neil is actually amazed. Um, w we talking was looking at his, um, dashboard and he had 85%, uh, returning customer returning rate. Uh, and it's just insane, you know, 85%, I don't have this kind of numbers.

And it's just like shows you when you have amazing customer service. Um, people come back and, and that's, again, that's another subject. Um, but it's just very important to understand that if people, uh, don't, you know, you acquire that customer, you have them as a follower. If they, if most of them don't purchase anymore is because you've done something wrong, you know, you've done something wrong, either with a product that was.

Meeting the expectations or the advertising or anything, you know, services. 

[00:56:59] Joseph: This isn't something I can, I suppose I can look it up on my own, but I've got you here. So is a, is a home? The niche that I'm in right now is, um, mainly like home office and remote working. Is there a fit for that within Pinterest or is it maybe too far off of the, I guess the overall artistic aesthetic of the website?

[00:57:16] Marc Chapon: What do you mean almost it's like, uh. 

[00:57:19] Joseph: So I'll, I'll, I'll go even more specific. So the exact product that I'm working on are self stick drawers. So you put them underneath your desk, you pull them out, you have extra drawers there. So it's very much about improving the remote working space. 

[00:57:30] Marc Chapon: Yeah, yeah. That is definitely, definitely, it's kind of, not really home.

I mean, it's kind of linked to home the call a little bit. 

[00:57:39] Joseph: I mean if like it, because it's a utility product, so I'm not, I'm not sure about that. 

[00:57:44] Marc Chapon: It works. There's an audience for everything. Uh, it definitely definitely works with a framework. Yeah, 

[00:57:49] Joseph: I think we can, I don't know if there's anything else you want to show us while we get your screen share.

Otherwise I think we can, we can close that one down. 

[00:57:56] Marc Chapon: Uh, you know, but obviously like, uh, uh, this is like then after there's a lot of details and lot of things, uh, that required is more time. Like takes a lot of times. I think it's just more good introduction that if people want to learn more, they can watch a lot videos have of course mentoring programs.

So they're more than welcome to see. I think that's a good overview to start and understand how this works. 

[00:58:18] Joseph: Yeah. And, uh, th the visual side of it as a, helped me out a lot to just, uh, getting the, uh, especially getting a sense of the relationship between the interests and the keywords. I think without your explanation, I wouldn't have understood exactly how those two work together.

Um, th this is, this is like maybe one of the silliest questions I've asked in a long time, but have you ever. Um, figured out if you need to say, like prevent someone from looking at it. So I'll give you an example based on the necklace. Let's just say you only want the guys to look at it because you want, you don't want the girls to like see it.

They want it to just be like a pure surprise. I know this is a very specific example, but I'm wondering if Pinterest would have that kind of capability. 

[00:58:57] Marc Chapon: No, really. I mean, you're not targeting women, so it's not going to show women. Of course, if they're using the account of their boyfriend or they might see it, but, uh, but no, there's not really, I don't think so, but it's not, it's not a problem because like I said, when you're targeting men, uh, it's mostly, you know, 99% of men and women will not, obviously some other people probably advertise the product also to women.

Um, but they might. Yeah, exactly you can't control what people are doing. But, um, obviously there's different angles that you could use, uh, like right now we dust the angle we've used, but it's not necessarily the only one that, you know, you can use. Uh, there's this example I always, I always talk about is like, uh, have you seen, you know, this, this product that was everywhere?

I think it was last year, was this massager thing that you're putting on your muscle and was doing like this, you know, uh, and people were like advertising this everywhere and it was just oversaturated. And with this brand that kind of used it, uh, for horses. And they were like using as a nod to like actually relax their horses.

Right. And this is like a completely new angle on the same product, but just for a different thing. And it works super well for them. So it's easy. That's, that's what I try to show and teach people is that the same product can be advertised differently. And you need to think outside of the box again, this is creativity again, but it's just, that's how you can, uh, um, separate yourself from the pack. And that's how you get, you don't have to be a genius, but it's just like trying to do things slightly differently, uh, in a smart way to get different customers. So here we use this end goal of like, as a gift for men, go for women that are interested in gemstones, or they interested in astronomy, for example, you know, there's different angles that you could use.

[01:00:43] Joseph: Yeah. Well, I, I just got to say, I think for the first one to come up with using the massager for the horse, that ties into what we were saying earlier about, you know, having your own pet, pretty sure. Whoever thought of that had a horse and was actually trying it out. Yeah. I never would've thought of that in a million years, even if that was working on that product.

[01:00:58] Marc Chapon: So I didn't even think about it, but actually I saw it for hosting. You can do it for dogs, you know what I mean? It could do it for, because there's different, there's different power thing on this, on this stuff. So you're not gonna the dog, but like a, you could go for like a little like, uh. 

[01:01:19] Joseph: Having a hard time sleeping.

Oh my God. 

[01:01:22] Marc Chapon: And it's all cats. 

[01:01:25] Joseph: Just use it on themselves. 

[01:01:29] Marc Chapon: No, but I, you know, like for example, for all dogs maybe, or for, uh, things like this could definitely work if you do gently. Um, so see another, that's another thing I just thought about in and out. I never seen it before, but this could definitely. Uh, an angle that people could use for the same product could put, like that is saturated, that is not working for, you know, general niches.

And you, you just use it for different animals. Uh, oh, I think the most, all different, some use using different audiences. That's what I meant. Um, and, and then it could work and turn it into from a loser to a winner. Yeah, 

[01:02:02] Joseph: I, you know, I, I tend to hold on to this idea. Uh, it was instilled very early on, which is, you know, the product doesn't work, kill it.

Um, and, and I try to hold onto that idea because it helps keep me grounded and that, you know, these things, the bottom can fall out these things that they might not work, but I also get a lot of, of the opposing opinion, which is there's always a new approach. There is a new way to look at it. So it, I mean, products aren't made to fail they're made to succeed.

So it, you know, outside of the box thinking and creative thinking can lead you towards finding a new way to approach. 

[01:02:36] Marc Chapon: Yeah, exactly. It's a risky, it's risky because when you're beginner, um, again, you don't know why you don't know, so you just pretty much throwing things at the wall and hoping it sticks and that's not good.

So that's why as beginners, it's good to actually, like you said, it keeps you grounded to stay. Okay. It doesn't work after two weeks or something. I move on. But when you get more experience, you try to, you then realize, okay, there's new angles and stuff. Because in the beginning I was testing a hundred of angles, but I actually do.

I mean, the whole thing was, was, was it done? And I couldn't make it work, but I tried very hard to make it work. And I'd lost thousands, you know, when I was just started. Um, and again, so it's, it's a really fine balance between, uh, and that's where it's hard. That's what people are struggling and it's not easy, but, uh, you should not give up right away.

That's why it's not because it doesn't work the first week that is not going to work. That's for sure. Like most of my products that were best sellers, they will not work in the first week they were working. I mean, they were getting me sales, but they're not getting any profits again and getting sales.

They're getting profit. It's too hard. It's the hard thing. Uh, and, and yeah. So like after a week or two weeks started tweaking the price, the offer everything. Then as time making profit, if I gave up, like before, like just because it doesn't work, I'm just gonna try something else. I would have not missed hundreds of thousands of dollars on the table.

So it's, it's, it's, it's good to again, test different things when you get to see ups not getting anything. And if you're doing again, everything correctly, uh, all the pieces of puzzle together, the side of the typing, everything. And it still doesn't work then? Yes. But again, that's the hard thing is that some people think they have all the pieces of the puzzle together, but they actually don't.

They did the other day, so is not good or their side is not good. You know? So that's why it's hard with jobs we need commerce in general is like to really make sure that you actually, every part, every part of the eCom puzzle is actually complete and everything is done good. So if it doesn't work okay, it's the product or is this, and you know, right.

But when you confuse and you're lost and that's what happens to most people, they just don't know. And they give up because they're like this. 

[01:04:42] Joseph: Yeah. And, you know, you know, you're, you're using the term, um, that ecom puzzle, which is great, cause it really wanted to ask you about ever since, like, I learned that from you, um, I've held onto that for myself and, you know, over time, I guess I can talk to different people in different areas.

Um, and I guess my, my puzzle has made me takes a different shape from other people. For instance, like affiliate marketing is something I really enthusiastic about. And so that might have a bigger chunk on it, on the, my puzzle versus like SEO, which to me is important. Really got to have it. But as every time somebody tries to explain SEO to me, I start to drooling at the mouth.

So, you know, I it's got to fit, but it's really hard for me. So what I'm wondering is, you know, over, over, since the last time we talked, is, has your puzzle come into clearer focus, have new piece has been added to it? Like, has there been any really, really major revelations that have, uh, reshaped your, your, your thinking about what you're doing?

[01:05:30] Marc Chapon: Um, platforms, uh, like using, for example, TikTok influencers is definitely a new one that I'm doing, uh, you know, experiencing, creating the different pieces, you know, like trying to find new business with different platforms again, but aside from this, that the basics are still the same. It's still website advertising products.

Uh, that's the three main pieces. And then after it, after that, it's like, you know, different apps, different, uh, components and stuff. But the main pieces are mostly, yeah, the products, the advertising and the, uh, and the website. Um, and those will never change. It's always going to be this. And then you're going to add a few, few more pieces, um, to complete the puzzle and make it bigger, you know, because it's kind of like a puzzle that is never finished.

Uh, but you need the basics to, to do yeah. To, to make it work. If you miss the big parts, uh, it's not going to work. So obviously when I talk about like the three main pieces, like I said, it doesn't, if you only have those three, you know, you're not going to go really far. It's just going to be, you're going to get sales if you do this well, but then you need good customer, a good customer.

Service, which is another piece of the puzzle, you know, to expand. Then you need, if you start as you're scaling, you need, uh, you know, different, uh, again, traffic sources and those are all the pieces that I lose to expand it as the puzzle expand so that your business expands and grows and grows as well.

So, yeah, that's been most of the idea of, again, it's just an image, uh, but it's just two and it's the same to everything in life. Everything you do in life, uh, whether it's a sport, no, whether it's tennis, whether it's business, there's a lot of things that goes into it. It's not just like hitting a ball.

You know what I mean? Like in tennis or fighting, it's not just punching somebody in the face. There's so many techniques and movements and strategies behind it and need to learn all these things to actually be efficient at fighting a lot, playing tennis, the same thing. 

[01:07:29] Joseph: You know, you, you reminded me, I don't know if he ever, um, heard or seen this TV show.

It was called a extras with a Ricky and there's this that got very popular where, um, he was sitting next to, um, sitting across from, um, sir, Ian McKellen, he's playing himself, uh, Magneto, Gandalf, and a bunch of other, um, uh, theater performances that I don't know off the top of my head. And he says, how do I actually, well, oh, I pretend to be the character I'm playing.

And the whole joke of the scene is that he's explaining it in such a simplistic, childlike way that Rick is just like, just completely amazed or just in shock. Like you're explaining it to this. Like, like it's a, five-year-old like, and remember when we're on the shoot, no one has their scripts with them.

And, and, and, and, and, and I remember it, um, because the first part of it is, yeah, it's really funny to think that this, you know, one of the most respected actors in the world is explaining it like a child, but then it also made me think, well, you know what, as a start. Sometimes starting with the most simplistic approach is a good, is a good place to start is yes, I am just pretending to be somebody else.

That is the essence of acting or yes, I am just trying to sell a product. I'm trying to solve somebody else's problems. That is the essence of marketing. And then, you know, you, you learn the technique and get more, you get more into it. But I think starting with the premise is gets people aligned in the right way.

And that's one thing I've really tried hard to do, which is what is the core premise of this, which is you're solving problems for other people. 

[01:08:54] Marc Chapon: Yeah. You selling product, your selling pleasure. You sellin something that's going to make people happy or change, you know, pretty much you gotta solve a problem that is going to make them happy.

Uh, you know, sort of pain. Um, and actually it's funny that you talk about this. I was actually looking at, um, I was watching a video this morning of, you know, obviously the, the Wolf of wall street. I'm sure you watched the movie and there's this famous scene where he says, you know, sell me to sell this fan.

And, and then I saw an interview of him and people asking, so tell me the spend and he's like, he's like, well, I'm going to actually explain to you what I meant by this. And he said, people that don't understand selling, because the same thing for e-commerce what we do. They're just going to describe the product and say, this is an amazing pen.

This is great. This is, you know, you can write upside down, you do this, you can do that. They said, but those people that don't understand selling and nobody's going to ever buy or, you know, something like that. So the only thing you can actually do, the only rational thing you can do is actually ask questions and the standard first, they need a pen.

What is, why do you need a pen? What kind of pen did you use? You know, why would it like. How are they going to use this pen? And then you're going to understand and get all of these data and then use that data to sell them this product, right? Uh, even say, well, no, I don't. I never use pens. I, you know, I just work on my computer.

You don't, you shouldn't even sell them now. You shouldn't even try it because it's going to be pushy. It's not going to work. So he's pretty much always he's like that. We don't selling pens, but it's the same idea here. We don't want to describe just a product and we want to talk about what kind of solutions it would solve, even if it's not obvious for them.

And then present the product as a solution in a subtle way. And not just like buy, buy, buy, buy, because you can't force people to buy. Anyway. It's just not how it works. You know? Like we, we, we make decisions, so it needs to be subtle. It's not. 

[01:10:41] Joseph: Well, one thing I find interesting about your, your, your computer analogy is that, is it possible that because like you're saying, you know, you don't know what you don't know sometimes it's also about, you have to introduce the problem for.

Before you can introduce a solution to them. So somebody who's on the computer all the time. Like for me, for instance, I paid for all of the place because I recognize the value. And even as we're talking, I jot down notes because it's easier to do that than to like pull up the other screen, type it in.

It's very distracting. So problem solution. I, and I think there's a, there's a, uh, there's a pursuit there as well, which is, you know, helping people identify what their problems are before you can even identify their solutions. 

[01:11:18] Marc Chapon: Yeah. Well, yeah, you can, you don't want to go for a solution first. Uh, never like you want to talk about again, like the needs and it's always problems first that I did.

I said, I need to talk about solutions first. 

[01:11:30] Joseph: No, I don't remember you saying that.

[01:11:32] Marc Chapon: No, no, no, no, no, no. It's always problem first. Um, and then the solution, um, but like you said, sometimes it might not be even aware of the problem really, but you that's the, that's the sort of it's like, you need to talk about this problem, but not without making sense, like really explain crime that they are facing.

Oh, that's why my higher, so that's why this happens, whatever. And then you provide the solution. But again, it's very, it's a very subtle art because you can't just say, oh, you know, I buy this product. This is amazing. It's going to, you know, like you can't just do that because you sound like an idiot, so you need to find ways to make it cool.

You know, that's why we'll do now. Like they do. It's really cool, like to advertise, to like to make a pool and, and, and that's why you need to do. You can use humor, you can use, uh, you know, like jokes and emotions and different things like this. This could help you. Yeah. 

[01:12:29] Joseph: With that. Uh, I just had to look at how long we've been going for, and it is an hour 15.

So we've, um, I for when I've I've I think I've gone through all my agenda. I think we're, we're, we're, we're good to wrap this up. I want to say it's really been great to have you back. It's been great to see you again and to have this conversation and, um, just be able to, to learn from you in this more extensive format.

So, um, I'm really thankful to have you here. 

[01:12:51] Marc Chapon: Thank you. Thank you for having me. It was a pleasure as well. 

[01:12:54] Joseph: Excellent. So, uh, if there's any, um, well, I mean, I don't remember if I instituted this last time we add you on, but whatever. Um, if you've got your final words or if any nuggets of wisdom have propped up since the last time I talked to you, you're welcome to share it.

And then, uh, direct the audience, how they can find out more about what you're up to. 

[01:13:12] Marc Chapon: Well, regarding less where the wisdom don't really know. Um, I think we've talked a lot about a lot. I don't really know. Um, But people expect, but, uh, if it's beginners or if it's people that are more advanced, um, what I would say like for beginners, cause I know that I think that's the main, you know, they may know just watching the show is like, might sound cliche, but it's all about consistency, persistence.

And just like, uh, doing something to, you know, a little bit every day and not expecting big results and just keep going until it works pretty much. And just never, you know, I know the phrase never give up as always throw in, you know, they're in there, but it's just like, it's not an option, you know, just keep doing, keep doing it without expecting anything, but just having fun doing it.

And at one point it's just going to work. Um, to me it was never an option to stop. It's just like, that's how I'm just going to do it until it works. And it's just, it, people just give up always before it actually works. The, the, the funny, I don't, I don't know if I said it during the call on a previous call is like, uh, many of my students, um, the well telling me, or I'm, I'm actually thinking about giving up, uh, because it's just too hard. I've done for a few months. It's not working whatever. And I'm like, no, you shouldn't, she didn't, she didn't say, oh, I'm going to take a week. And then I'm going to get by. And then they go back to it. And that's when everything clicked, you know?

And they happened to so many people and it's just, that's a sign it's just shows. You know, sometimes you, you, you think about giving, giving up, but you actually very close to, to stop getting, getting some mass and return on investment. So, yeah, that's pretty much what I would say. It's very basic, but it's very important, especially in the beginning when you're starting and you're, you know, you feel lost and feel like nothing makes sense, uh, regarding, uh, more information about me.

So, um, actually if you'd like to know more about Pinterest, if you'd like to talk to me directly, what I, uh, I have now is a service where you can actually book a call with me. It's a free call and we can talk about you for an hour for a new business for an hour. And we see, you know, understand your struggles and see how we can help.

So that's the service we do. And, uh, yeah, that's pretty much, uh, that's pretty much it. Um, thank you so much again for having me and really appreciate it. And, uh, yeah, it was. I, 

[01:15:29] Joseph: I agree completely, really glad to have you here and to my audience, it is also an honor and a privilege to be able to collect entrance information with all of you.

So thanks to everybody for all of your participation. And with that take care, we will check in soon.

Thanks for listening. You might've found this show on many number of platforms, apple podcasts, Spotify, Google play, Stitcher, or right here on Debutify. Whatever the case. If you enjoy this content and want to help us thrive, please take a few moments to leave a review on apple podcasts or wherever you think is best.

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