Matt Panek is an eCommerce Entrepreneur & Co-Founder of SalesGenomics, a 70+-people Facebook Partner Forbes-Featured eCommerce Growth Hacking Agency spending over $1mln monthly on ads. Matt has over $35mln in sales for clients in 2020 alone as well as multiple 7-figures for his own eCommerce businesses. He likes water sports, cats and kimchi.
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Matt Panek: [00:00:00] Yeah. So there's actually no secret. That's the thing that's, you know, a lot of more people understood it, that their businesses skyrocket. The real secret is consistency and, you know, like applying a certain kind of a way of thinking. Right?
Joseph: [00:00:22] You're listening to Ecomonics, a Debutify podcast. Your resource for one of the kind of insights into the world of e-commerce and business in the modern age. This is Joseph. I'll be presenting a wealth of industry knowledge from interviews with successful business people and our own state-of-the-art research. Your time is valuable so let's go.
Matt Panek of SalesGenomics utilizes his psychology background to help understand not only the customer, but how to run a business. In this episode, we talk about how the front facing structure sets it apart from other ad agencies. SalesGenomics more defly integrates each department while also making sure that the employees are happy and productive.
Matt Panek, it is good to have you here on Ecomonics. How are you doing today? How are you feeling?
Matt Panek: [00:01:11] Hey, Joseph. Awesome to be here. Super excited.
Joseph: [00:01:14] Same here. I'm uh, I, I was excited to, to talk to you. I checked out what your, your, your operation is up to. So I definitely have some questions specific to that, and it is exciting just to see how big the industry really is.
Because every time I meet somebody, it adds another piece into the puzzle and I say, wow, okay. Now I understand, uh, how much more influence, uh, there really is. And I also just wanted to ask too, what time is it right there in Dubai?
Matt Panek: [00:01:37] It's actually, I need to double check. I currently operate across three time zones. Okay. It's actually 5:00 PM.
Joseph: [00:01:44] Five.
Matt Panek: [00:01:45] Yeah.
Joseph: [00:01:45] Okay. Yeah. I just to our audience. I don't know how often that they're like in engaged in the video and you know, no, I'm, I'm, I'm in that same way too. I I'll I'll throw something on then I'll minimize it. But take a moment. Just like, look at the background people it's just fantastic to see, um, took it, took my breath away for a second there.
Matt Panek: [00:02:05] Yeah, you can imagine how excited I actually am. So last month I moved to Dubai from Poland where we have like a massive lockdown probably like most of the world right now. So I'm super excited to be here with the summons. And almost no restrictions.
Joseph: [00:02:18] Yeah. All right. Well, since I brought it up, the opening question is, you know, tell us what you're up to, but we're going to like put a pin in that for a second. Cause like I just wanted to hear like, um, was your decision to go to Dubai based on the lockdown restrictions you just wanted, you know, some, uh, some of that old school freedom back.
Matt Panek: [00:02:36] Uh, weather and taxes, check it out. Good for drop shipping as well.
Joseph: [00:02:43] Okay. Yeah, that, that, that that's, that's totally fair. All right. So pulling the pin out, uh, tell us what you do and tell us what you're up to these days.
Matt Panek: [00:02:49] All right. So I'm actually the founder of a SalesGenomics co UK, which is an e-commerce growth hacking agency.
So what we do is we help eCommerce stores take things to the next level. And we are proud to have actually generated over $35 million in direct to consumer sales for our customers in 2020 alone. Um, you know, a phrasing partner we've run out to companies such as, uh, Colgate's uh, and if you guys certain to, you know, drop shipping and things like that.
Um, and yeah, so we are running a completely decentralized operations, 70 plus people with zero physical office. And, you know, we kind of, I feel embody what we believe in, which is the lifestyle of freedom that, uh, e-commerce businesses and drop shipping businesses allow you to have.
Joseph: [00:03:35] You mentioned, um, uh, Colgate in there too, right?
Colgate as in the, the toothpaste, um, manufacturer.
Matt Panek: [00:03:40] Correct.
Joseph: [00:03:41] Great. So I want to ask you about that briefly because, uh, one of the things that I noticed lately is that there's this challenge and it's a very, it's a very like unconscious level. Cause I don't actually know if the e-commerce industry at large is thinking about it, but I think this is happening on a subconscious level, which is the challenge of bridging the gap between e-commerce brands and what I would can describe as household brands. So how soon into your career, or at what point did it take place through salesgenomics, um, foundation to today? Were you able to secure work with something that, for note, for lack of a better term, people recognize and already have some affinity with?
Matt Panek: [00:04:21] Yeah. So it's been, it's been probably like four years in the works, but actually like a more interesting story to tell here.
And, you know, I probably can't go into too much details about this. Okay. But what we've, uh, what we've been working actually with, uh, companies like Colgate's on, it's actually helping big brands embrace the direct consumer revolution. Right? Cause like, if you're like me, you kind of got into the e-commerce industry while it was already kind of maturing.
But, uh, and for us, it's almost like, you know, the kids being born into the internet right. To us, you know, it's, it's completely natural and we don't even think what things were like before, but what we actually need to realize is that. No, never before, you know, up to maybe, you know, like 20, 30 years ago, it was almost impossible to, you know, come up with a product and just sell it directly to a huge amount of customers.
You can grow a brand, that's going to be a hundred million dollars brand. Like you even big brands like Colgate, right. They were usually, uh, basically left at the mercy of the retailers. Right. So, you know, such as Walmart and stuff like that in order to distribute their products through to customers. And, you know, the, the reason that, you know, companies were growing so big was actually, you know, like.
They, they were capturing all the benefits of, you know, negotiating with the retailers, getting better shelf prices. You know, if a retailer doesn't like you or that you don't get a good deal for them, you know, they'll put you down on the shelf and your brand stops existing. Right. So now basically with all the tools of e-commerce brand scan and really start selling directly at various, a little too, you know, very little costs of, um, very little to entry, right?
So this is actually something that, uh, the big brands are realizing, right? That one thing, you know, you can access your customers directly. But another benefit of selling directly to the consumer online is actually a little data that you're gathering, right? All the data that you can use for, um, optimizing your advertising spans.
Right? So testing out which creatives are gonna, are going to perform better, not just in terms of the brand awareness metrics, but also in terms of, uh, in terms of real customer acquisitions, right? So you can let's say test your creators on the performance metrics, and then you put them on a banner, right?
This is how you scale your campaigns as well. Uh, another thing is you can really get to know who your customers are by, you know, running split tests in different audience groups and see what kind of messaging resonates with that audience group. Right? So all this kind of data hub. And understanding of your customers, even, you know, things like purchase behavior of long-term customers.
How many times do they buy? When do they buy, what kind of products the bikes have the capital of? Right. So all those kinds of direct consumer brands that really act as assets for the big companies and corporations to, um, to make all sorts of decisions. So, you know, stuff like the acquisition of the dollar shave club, um, this really shows that the big corporations are really craving for this data.
But they actually find it very difficult to build any sort of direct consumer, uh, toolkits in-house right. So that's why they hire companies like, like sales genomics, or they acquire brands from the outside to try to really entered this, um, this direct consumer revolution. Right. For all its purposes. So, so that's certainly interesting and we really forget, you know, for us it's okay.
We're just gonna find the next structure you can product and sell it, but there's really a big picture in play. Um, and I think it's only gonna become more important.
Joseph: [00:07:40] You, you, you raised a lot of, uh, interesting points there. One of them, by the way, I didn't know, until you had said it was that dollar shave club had been acquired at all.
Um, up to this point, I had assumed that it was still, uh, an independent company. Now, my guess is, is that as a brand, it still comes across as independent, but I, I don't know what your expertise is on it. Cause I don't know what your relationship is with it. Maybe you just heard of it in passing, but it sounds like a larger company, like Gillette or something like that had bought them out and not so much for the product, but really it was for the data and how much a individual consumer data they had collected because they have the direct relationship with them.
Matt Panek: [00:08:14] Yeah, exactly. I think that that's what's happening. So the companies that are acquiring those companies that, you know, like much higher valuations that they're a bit of would suggest, right. Um, just because of the, of this data. Now, the question is, are they going to be able to monetize this data? I think, you know, it was a dollar shave of now, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, but, uh, you know, the, the prices of acquisitions of the right consumer companies have been falling down, uh, consistently just probably because the big companies don't yet know how to integrate those assets within their operations, which I think is probably what's going on.
So the value of, you know, they haven't properly realized the value. Um, and you know, like there was hype at the beginning then probably like some, you know, there hasn't been like a super, super huge billion dollar exits, uh, lately in terms of e-commerce from, from what I'm aware of. Um, but yeah, still I think that, you know, volume, direct consumers huge.
Joseph: [00:09:08] I'm not going to be the first person to say this on the show or probably even just today, but when we're dealing, we're still dealing with the, the longest 14 days to sell the spread in history and the result of that has cause a lot of these companies to have an accelerated relationship with e-commerce, um, uh, agencies and services such as yourself to the point where people can't even right now here in Toronto, we couldn't even physically go into a store, say like Walmart, for instance, they, they sectioned off a bunch of the areas so that we can only buy the essentials.
I have a feel that I can still get in there. I can still probably get toothpaste. Lucky for the toothpaste company, they picked a, something that was essential. You know, what clothing companies right now, they don't have, they wouldn't have that same luxury. Uh, which is ironic if you think about it, because clothing is essential in most parts of the world anyways. And so what I, one more question about this and then I'll, I'll I'll shift gears. Cause I asked the questions about your agency. Um, primarily is now let's say doors are open, uh, once again, and you know, people are able to, once again, shop freely like they do in some parts of the world at this point is how could that affect the relationship, um, with some of these larger brands and what will they want so just continue to get out of. Having their physical presence in the stores. Because one thing that I think is still an advantage is that unconscious marketing of even seeing the product there physically, there's an element of prestige. There's a legacy to it of seeing something I think a lot, not everybody, but I think a lot of people understand that for something to be in a store, there is a cost to it.
And so there is a lot of work involved just to put it on display. And I think that does add an element of prestige to the brands that can make it to that point.
Matt Panek: [00:10:48] So the question was what is going to happen to e-commerce and relationships with big brands? Are they going to reduce the ecommerce budgets or whatnot. Right? But if I understood it correct.
Joseph: [00:10:58] Could they? Yeah. That's th that's certainly one thing when one part of the question yeah. The overall what would happen to the relationship?
Matt Panek: [00:11:04] Yeah, exactly. So what I, what I think is actually happening is that e-commerce and, you know, the way big brands think about it, right is e-commerce is just part of the game. It's just one of the. Uh, distribution channels, right? So, you know, in the same way that, you know, your own brand and your own storefront, that you run ads to, it's one distribution channel, another distribution channel is your, let's say Amazon storefront. And another one is going to be your, your offline presence, whether it's a pop-up store or a presence in some sort of retail location, right?
Like Walmart, for example, uh, so, so brands, you know, like always try to optimize different, uh, different parts of their distribution channels. Right. And, you know, there is both, the benefits of brands were existing, offline to move online for the purpose of data optimization, um, you know, further scaling and stuff like that.
We have a lot of clients who actually moved from offline to online just because they want to explore this revolution, you know, really move online, um, you know, get the benefits of having a channel they can control. But also there are brands who just like you mentioned, like getting the prestige in, you know, like really unlock massive scale by going into retail.
Right? So they start from e-commerce, they have this, you know, uh, cashflow optimized or, or not, even if they're, let's say they have external funding, they're just pumping cash into it. They get to a certain level or they can, you know, they get noticed by, by certain, by some sort of retailers and they get into retail contracts, uh, to scale there.
Um, you know, into wholesale, right? Cause that's, that's what really unlocks the volume. If you can access mass markets, you know, you're definitely going to get worse margins. You're going to have to, you might possibly even redefine your product because you know, let's say you're selling in e-commerce, you know, it's selling any farmers because you need to be able to afford ads.
It's probably mostly going to be brands that are leaning more towards the premium segments and, um, And there that might not necessarily be what's going to fit in the retail. Right? So we have a client right now, that's in talks with retailers and you know, one thing we need to do is actually redesign and create a smaller pocket size so that we can be on the same price point as some other offerings that they have, that the retailers already have on their shelves.
Right. But that is definitely a good move for, uh, for, for the brands, you know, both for prestige and for the scale.
Joseph: [00:13:19] Right. And, and one thing that we also see brands do in order to be able to, uh, control some different parts of the market is they can rebrand their products. I don't know how like, prevalent and like say no name is for instance.
Um, I, here in Canada, we have the no name brand, which is a, well, I mean, it's the most unremarkable branding possible to the point where it's actually kind of remarkable. Like it's, it's, it's, it's, it's an ironic pattern interrupt because everybody else focuses on having, um, uh, appealing marketing and no name as the interrupt, because it's not, it's like purposely not appealing.
Uh, we even have a supermarket that's like, if no name wanted to run its own store called no-frills, which is like the no name store. So it. So, what do you, what we have is you have these brands, they will produce those products and they'll just label it differently so that they can control different parts of the market.
So that is also one of the challenges too, is that not only are they competing against one brand or one product you're competing against several products, all of which are controlled by one brand.
Matt Panek: [00:14:16] Yeah. Yeah. And th that's really interesting because I just read this really cool book. That's called the confessions of the pricing, man.
That's a pretty cool book about pricing and surprisingly, but one really interesting thing and a question that a lot of people who start, um, you know, let's say they start on Amazon or they started running their own Shopify store and they want to move to Amazon or the other way around the problem that they have is sometimes, you know, let's say you get Amazon sellers doing big volume, right.
And then they, they think, okay. I, my product is great. I'm going to move to Shopify and then they fail completely just because, you know, the Amazon is, intent-based primarily right. You're attacking people with products that you know, that people are searching for. Even if you're running out on Amazon while on, on, you know, your own sort of, uh, story, you get a, you, you either run a Google ads or you which are also competitive, or you do some sort of display ads, right. Where everything is based on some sort of, you know, like unique, um, attention grabbing wild factor Instagramable products. Right? So, so sometimes, you know, not the same product that is going to sell well on Amazon is going to sell well on your own store.
At least using the typical let's call it e-commerce tactics. So Facebook, Instagram ads, influencers, and so on. So sometimes brands could be better off actually spinning out different products for, uh, for this new distribution channel that just like you suggested since yeah. A lot of people do it successfully.
Joseph: [00:15:38] And actually one of the things that I had, uh, looked, uh, what I had discovered when I was, um, researching some of the content that you had done is now this was a conversation that you would have with somebody else, but it was the subject of native ads. Uh, and I got to say, I don't think we've talked about that on the, uh, on the program.
So I think this would be a really good time to bring that up. Just what were your takeaways from that discussion and how native ads, um, could be a factor in the situation that we're in right now.
Matt Panek: [00:16:03] Yeah. So native ads are actually pretty, pretty good. And this was probably one of my biggest discoveries with 2020.
So, you know, think about this, you know, like I come, when I discovered e-commerce with Facebook ads, right. I really discovered, you know, Facebook ads and I'm like, okay, there's the think of Facebook ads? There's this, you know, I can sell products online using Facebook ads. And only then I started discovering that there are new platforms, but actually, you know, Uh, native ads is probably one of the older type of advertising.
You know, the stereotypical display that affiliates used to run since the beginning of the internet. Right? So platforms for running native ads like Taboola or Outbrain, you know, have, have existed for awhile and they're actually growing in importance. Um, I think Taboola just announced an IPO, so, so it's really, really big thing that's happening. Uh, so what are native ads, right? Those are effectively all those sort of scummy banners. You can sometimes find, um, on the bottom of the articles that, you know, they almost look like, like a suggested article. Um, and they they're really, you know, they're all about the curiosity and getting you to, to click on this stage and then you get sand, usually not to product page, but to another article, right.
Or something that resembles an article, which we call advertorials. Yeah, you run a customer through, as you know, they're on some sort of content platform, right? They read, they read an article, they click on your ad, they land on your article and then you kind of take them through the journey of this there's long form sales letter, um, to, to eventually make a purchase.
Right. So what's that good for? Right. It's good for products that are fairly broad because those, uh, you know, the, the network's targeting abilities. Um, and the AI is pretty great, but it doesn't offer the same kind of granular targeting that you can find on Facebook. Right? So you can target specific interests.
You're mostly relying on, on demographics and, and countries. Right. And you can optimize placements. So like those very kind of high-level metrics. So the stuff that's going to do best, there are going to be products that are really attacking the mass market. You know, a lot of people, um, problems that a lot of people will have, right.
Let's say, you know, relationships, health, some sort of, uh, you know, business advice, finance and stuff like that. Right. But also products such as probably maybe something like kitchen appliances. Where you can really fit a lot of people. Right? A lot of people have this issues. Yeah. Like native ads are run very differently to Facebook ads. So you're, you know, like from what I've noticed in the kind of strategies that worked for us is, you know, you have very simple creatives based on curiosity. There, they, they do allow video advertising, but I haven't seen it working too well. Um, you know, the outs and headlines are based on pure curiosity, something that you will learn from, you know, the classics of copywriting, right.
Um, and, um, you can personalize certain things and they add copy based on, let's say the, the country or the city where the visitor is from to add a little bit more relevance to it. And in terms of the campaigns, you usually segment by mobile versus desktop. Cause it's a bit differently in those different platforms, two separate countries and bottle them together and stuff like that.
So in that sense, it's, it's, it's a little bit, um, different. Facebook where, you know, we're mostly all about, you know, power five now and, you know, broad audiences and flexibility and liquidity of the AI. Right. What else can I say? Well, native ads, the algorithm is pretty stable. So once you find something that's working, you know, it should continue to work for you for, for a long time.
Right. Uh, and, um, yeah, like the main criteria in whether to run native ads is, you know, not whether, oh, let me try something new. You know, it's a shiny object syndrome, but that's where your product can actually be good for it.
Joseph: [00:19:36] Well, one thing that I thought was interesting about this is the relationship between what level of intent the potential consumer is at, because if they're running on a website, um, and especially if their ads are running on an article, then that article should already curate a lot of the interest of the reader.
So it was like, you know, top 10, uh, uh, alternatives to shaving your face. Uh, never able blow your mind, like that already implies a lot of what the consumer is going to be like. I mean, they probably have facial hair, uh, they're probably open to a bladed weaponry. And then by the time they get to, uh, the, the ad w I guess the one thing that I would want to discover, and this is one thing I can always look into on my own is like, how.
Irrelevant. I can control where I place the ad. So if I want to target somebody along those lines, if I can look at the article and specific and say, this is a perfect article, this is where I would want to put my ads.
Matt Panek: [00:20:28] Yeah. So I'm not entirely sure. You know, I'm not such, I'm not so big of a native ads experts.
So my media buyers, but what I know is you can do, you can optimize the publishers that you display it on, but I'm not entirely sure if you can, let's say personalize a specific article, right. You can definitely do it on. Uh, you know, on platforms such as Google display, but some Taboola maybe, I mean, that would theoretically make sense, right.
To have a, I'm not entirely sure how granular you can go with that, but also, you know, I think that the, you know, ultimately the, you can find a few articles before, but the game is, you know, fighting the big scale with, uh, with those algorithms. Right.
Joseph: [00:21:02] Right. That's me, that's me speculating. I'm just imagining how that would have an interesting relationship between, uh, intent, uh, versus a consumer warmth because there, there's some are looking for solutions to it, but they, you know, they're also hoping that they can look around the house for something to solve that problem. So I'll, I'll I'll table that for when I get to talk toTaboola down the line.
Let's shift into, uh, SalesGenomics. So there's definitely, I have some questions here about the, about the company. And I think as a starting point, I would like to know the origins of it. You know, w when, uh, when you started this, what problems in the market were you looking to solve unique to what the company does today?
Matt Panek: [00:21:47] Yeah, so that's, that's actually pretty funny because, you know, the, the, my initial intent behind creating SalesGenomics was I wanted to. So I was a pharmacy student. I was studying in London and I realized I really didn't want to do what I was studying. At some point I just woke up and I'm like, Hey, I need to do something else with my life.
Or I'm going to wake up in five years, you know, selling sandwiches and pills to two old ladies in a pharmacy. So, uh, so I had to find a new way and, you know, I didn't really have any startup ideas and it seemed that, you know, all you could do was create an innovative startup unicorn or, uh, you know, go to work in a consulting company or banking.
So I decided, you know, I'm just going to go do this. Right. But I, I didn't get accepted anywhere. So I hit a wall. I had to find something to do. And then I saw one of the, you know, like scammy ads on YouTube or something, you know, about creating a drop shipping business and learning Facebook ads. So based that's where I basically started.
I started learning Facebook ads. Um, and I basically decided, yeah, I'm gonna, I'm going to learn to do Facebook ads. And I really got, you know, quickly got into the markets and get excited about the full marketing, because like apply my passion for, for psychology, but I drew from my, you know, pharmacist studies into, into actually a real world application of marketing.
So that was, that was pretty exciting. And, you know, I started learning and failing, uh, spending some of my own money, you know, getting some clients, losing some clients. And then I eventually, when I cracked the code and figured out that the real way to, um, to, to scale an e-commerce business is not through.
She's just running Facebook ads, but by applying a certain method, the logical growth tracking process to, you know, to iterate and test fast and fail fast and bring the capable team to goods with you. Um, then you know, our company really started to expand and me and my business partner, uh, we merged in companies where we, which we actually started separately.
And we, uh, yeah. Then we, you know, we're five years later, SalesGenomics over 70 people. Super happy about it.
Joseph: [00:23:50] I, I love asking about psychology because it is one of those subjects that everybody in some way, shape or form is affected by. And so one of the things that I also like to talk to people about is how those skills came with them when entering into e-commerce.
So, um, as much as you're willing to share, you're not, you don't, you don't want to give away the secret sauce. I underst if you don't want to give it away, I understand. But, um, how it psychology applied to the methodology of the business you are running.
Matt Panek: [00:24:15] Yeah. So there's actually no secret. That's the thing that's, you know, a lot of more people understood it that their businesses would skyrocket, right.
The real secret is the consistency and, you know, like applying a certain kind of ways of thinking, right? So, um, you know, in, in marketing, almost everything is a test, right? You gotta understand that, you know, you get to, you get to basically have a, I have a way, so the, okay. Let's, let's take a step back. So the way we think about this, you know, we're a growth hacking agency and you know, what that really means is that we're applying the principles that, you know, certain companies were using for growing tech startups, like Dropbox and things like that, uh, for, uh, for e-commerce.
Right. So, um, what do they really do aside from, you know, the things that a lot of people hear about. Stuff like, you know, referral programs and stuff like this, but that's only a tiny part of what this company actually do. What they do is we operate in, in a sort of a cycle, right. The cycle is analysis. The cycle is ideation prioritization and, um, and action.
Right? So. And then repeat. So basically we look at the data we see, okay, we see what patterns in the data we see. We optimize our data, gathering procedures, see where the drop off is happening. Let's say, you know, we have a certain campaign on Facebook. Uh, we look at, we see that, you know, the what's what stacks out is, um, is the fact that conversion rates, as you know, between the product page and the actual card is significantly lower than a benchmark that we would be expecting or, um, and then we decide, okay, like, let's see what's could be the, the, the issue, right? So we generate list of hypotheses, right? And we say, let's say, okay.
Our product page is not evoking enough trust. And another thing is maybe this is a product that a lot of people already know what a cheap cost maybe we are and we are priced a bit premium. How about we change the pricing or put some kind of offer? Let's say we increase the price and then we slash a trade so that we, we set a different hook and make the price seem a little bit more appealing.
Right. And we generate the list of those sorts of hypotheses. And then we decide. You know, we basically rank things either, you know, in a more systematic or less systematic way, depending on, you know, um, how much you want to go into this. But we, we decide, okay, like this is the things that we're going to test first.
Right. Um, and then we, we, we, we run a test, we implement things, we gather data again, and we analyze it again. Right. If you think about applied on the Facebook, uh, perspective, right? Think about creatives. Right? So when most of the people, what they do is they. Um, okay. I want to test more creatives.
I know creatives are important for my campaign success. So what I'm going to do, I'm just going to order more creatives. From my, um, from my, you know, video team and, you know, just get me some more creatives, get some more like this, get some more shiny stuff like this and so on. Right. And then, you know, they just get resolved.
This works, this doesn't work. There's very little analysis to it and people just give up and then get another random batch. Right. So what this process lacks is effectively the retaining the learnings from one iteration to another, right. Which is really, what's going to take you to the next level. So that's why we, instead of testing creators, what we do is we test the hypothesis, right?
So we, um, before each creative test, what happens is we repeat the same process, as I explained before for creators. Right? So let's say. We would generate certain concepts first. Right? So you get the ideas have to start from somewhere. So let's say we come up, Hey, what if you know, for this brand, we test the concept.
Um, let's say, okay, we're, we're selling a, that's a full monitor, right. Monitoring the quality of the pool. And we decide, okay, how about we, we focus on the fact how much money people will save when, um, when buying this product and another concept could be, how about we just show those very funny viral videos of how a person is transformed from like, uh, you know, shitty pools, the pool owner to like, uh, you know, like someone that a lot of friends come to.
Right. So upgrading the social profiles. So we come up with concepts that it's usually a mixture of some sort of pain points or, or objective that's the customer has and some sort of visual way of representing. Right. And then what we do is we let's say we have one concept, then we were iterations of each fund, right?
So let's say the social profile aspects could be displayed in the form of like a video and a person just, just doing the, just doing their thing. Or it could be a side-by-side comparison. Right. Which we, let's say we show maybe a better example, just what we save time. So we have a comparison with like a clock on each side and we see, okay, like, this is how long a normal person takes to do this.
This is how long a person owning this pool monitor will take to complete this task. So you'll generate, let's say five different iterations of this concept. And then we're going to develop, you know, we have two concepts side by side, we're going to test them against each other. Right. And then we analyze results in context.
Right. So we. Uh, yes, we will look at the global metrics and compare it against, you know, certain control creators that we have, uh, our best performers, but we'll, we will also, you know, compare things, um, relatively to one another, and then we will draw conclusions, right? Let's say, uh, you know, like this particular iteration performed a little bit better, then we're going to do more iterations in the next round.
Right? So we take this situation that seems to work best. We're going to create five iterations for each right. And then this kind of insurance of process, you really like after, let's say 10 rounds of these, you not only have, you know, a creative that works, but you actually have creative that is performing, you know, 10 times better than the initial one that you, that you've made.
Right? So maybe it's less related to psychology, but more related to how this drug tracking process actually works and why some companies searches, you know, like when they get themselves into something that's working all is good, but the real. The real, you know, you, you only show what are your processes working well, when things get tough, right? Which they inevitably will in the e-commerce world.
Joseph: [00:30:05] A good point about, actually makes several good points there. Um, well, I mean, one of them is like how much of a element psychology of fighters into this. I think for me, just. Because it is my understanding, you know, it's the understanding of the human mind.
There's always an element of it regardless, right. Advertising is reaching us, conveying a message to somebody else. So I think on some level it is a, is it a, it's a foundational aspect of it? The part that I enjoyed from, from your description here is how it seems to open up a certain mixture of creativity and also a lot logical thinking, because you're trying to understand what would be components of human behavior that could, um, you know, result in conversions. So going back to your example about the pool monitor, if initially, if somebody is wanting to save money, as you're describing that the first pop pop into my head is, well, if they have a pool, then they obviously have, uh, achieved some level of, you know, financial stability, uh, because the pools are a luxury.
So for them to save money, that raises a lot of questions about, okay, is this somebody who, despite in spite of owning this, they still try to maximize the value out of it or do they always lean conservatively? I don't know if that was just like a hypothetical, but I, I guess I was, I am wondering too, is like, in that particular example, was there a relationship between them conserving their finances will also be able to afford a pool in the first place.
Matt Panek: [00:31:23] No, that was like a hypothetical example in terms of the, uh, those, those creatives. I'm not entirely sure. You know, what are the drivers, the underlying drivers of the customers, but coming back to the psychology, I think, you know, company psychology and the basics of marketing.
So, you know, I really considered copywriting as the foundation of all marketing. Right. Really understanding the customer's psychology. Um, It's it's really what it's, what is based off. Right. So I really recently had a really interesting conversation with a friend and we were saying how basically, uh, you know, like a lot of marketing is built on sort of inefficiencies, right.
That people exploited. So let's say, you know, you're the first company. To use Facebook ads to markets their products, right. And even though, you know, your product is pretty much the same and your marketing is very basic, you're gonna, you're gonna do well because you know, there's just no competition or in general, you're one of the first companies to run Facebook ads.
Your CPMs are, you know, $1 and you can sell anything. Right. Then things become then, you know, like 10 years later, uh, you know, your CPMs and fifth to you cannot sell your product anymore. Right. You have to, you know, like, your store. Um, and go somewhere else. Right. And, um, and what's, what's, you know, but let's say coming back to the traditional ways of marketing, such as, you know, TV, where you have to get really good or just, you know, like magazine ads, like some sort of postcards and things like that, you really have to, um, go back to the basics.
Right. Which is, which is the, the, the customer psychology and, uh, you know, crafting good, good marketing copy and really making good creatives that it, you know, like kind of, you know, what's our spot on, on every aspect of it. Right. And that's what actually might happen too on Facebook as well. You know, we're expecting the iOS changes, uh, in, out to like, you know, obliterate the large part of the market.
Probably, you know, I was just reading up, um, about a lot of this before our call. Cause that's where my. Focuses lately on figuring out how to, you know, whether there's going to be a storm, how big of a storm it's going to be, how should we prepare? And, um, yeah, like what are, you know, some companies are gonna go out of business or nuts.
Right. And, uh, what we, what I, what I figured is that, you know, one of the parts, one of the things to, you know, protect yourself from any sort of, any advertising platform is like, you know, of course having a really good product. Optimizing your, you know, having a really good offer for the customers.
And then going back to the basics in terms of marketing. So nailing your customer avatars and nailing your website, copy and nailing your, you know, fundamental strategy, whether you're using advertorials or, or any sort of little funnel. Um, yeah, so that's, you know, like, I think that time spent on educating yourself on the principles of psychology and marketing is always time good spam.
Joseph: [00:34:09] And one comparison, two that I think is worth bringing up here is the, I think the resonance of, of more traditional advertising. Um, if you, if you look at print media, for instance, a magazine ad. I has a lot of exposure because somebody like myself might flip through the pages numerous times waiting for the next subscription to arrive.
And then I now only have I seen that ad once I've actually seen him multiple times. And so there's a way for it to stick. I think with television ads, um, It doesn't assume that the person is going to pay attention. Obviously they can change the channel. They can get up, get a snack or whatever, but let's just say for sake of argument that they actually said and watched the ad, um, with the ability to have, you know, you have actors, you have a script, you have music, you have visuals.
Um, there was a lot of that they can do for the ads to really stick and stay in somebody's mind. And I think that does happen to be a challenge in the e-commerce space, because I think there's so much competition. There's so much a stimuli that it is difficult for an ad to, to really stick. But it sounds like this is something that you guys have an advantage because you, with the Euro high hypothesis and your experimentation, you can get a better understanding of where are the pain points of the consumer and what are not the pain points of the consumer. So is there anything that you can say on this subject, like have you, uh, have you seen ways to make your ads really be more compelling and stick in people's minds? Just so you know, get more value out of them?
Matt Panek: [00:35:32] Yeah, definitely. And I think like, especially for social ads, right. What's really is the indicator of a good ad. It's like what I call it's, you know, let's say virality potential. Right? So when I evaluate ads, um, You know, there's really a few things that we need them to do. Right. So I have sort of a checklist and I hope I'm going to actually remember the items now, but number one is attention, right?
Like, you know, in the, you know, the person's scrolling through your newsfeed, they really have some getting their attention, right. Even on, on YouTube, right. Or even in TV, right. That's the principle. You have to get someone's attention so that they don't walk away and make themselves, peanut butter sandwich, but, uh, but actually stay on what your basically and grabbing attention is important.
So having some sort of, you know, fast-paced pattern interrupt, some sort of in a really weird, uh, things, you know, even, uh, talking about audio platforms like Snapchat or YouTube is really important. Uh, so getting attention is, is number one, right? Are you getting the attention of the bat? Um, the next thing is, uh, this sort of, you know, like showing the product, uh, you know, presenting the product as your solutions are pulling a person into, into the world of the product and showing relevance.
Right. That's, that's, what's important. So you have to show the person, you know, like, and make it visual and make it emotional. Um, how they're going to experience the product. Right? So the like ownership benefits, not just tell them, but actually show them right. So that's another important thing. And I'm talking primarily about video ads because that's, you know, what's, uh, like probably most of the volume is coming from the next thing is this virality potential, right.
Which is something really interesting. And there's the book called contagious that they really recommend. It's pretty good, very, very simple. Um, and it tells, it tells you about a few principles of, of things that make ads or campaigns more likely to go viral and they talk about things like, you know, um, a certain.
Um, kind of stop this, that sharing this information within your ad is gonna, is going to give to a person, right. Also prepackaging your product into a, into a, like a short slogan or story that someone can share. So let's say, you know, uh, think about a simple slogan, like, uh, let's say indestructable shoes, right?
Like something that, you know, you can shoot with your gun. W w you can shoot and you're not going to be destroyed. Right. So this is something that is worth sharing, right? So something that, okay, you see this ad, you hear about this product. You're going to tell your friends, like, check out this app. But for example, my favorite out of all times, it's, um, the, um, the soda stream ad with Paris Hilton that you absolutely must watch.
And so awesome. Uh, so this is stuff that, you know, like you tell your friends about it and you know, your friends are going to have fun and they're going to thank you. And it's going to make you look good if you, uh, if, if they know they've heard from you, right? So this is the, this kind of like, um, what are sharing this content is going to like break the social status of the person watching it.
Right. And another thing is, you know, just like make it easy to share. So like prepackaging this, right? If you tell. Um, someone in the app that like the only, let's say, let's come back to the indestructible shoes, examples, the only shoes that's, you know, like are a hundred percent and I'm distracted. Right.
So it makes it easy to purpose. And to just repeat it, like, Hey, you need to see this out of about those shoes that are indestructable. It's stuff like this. What else was there just, um, in terms of availability, right? I mean, maybe that applies more to products then to marketing campaigns, but generally something that's you, you know, you see a lot that can remind you of, um, of this product that people see a lot throughout their day is going to be, um, is going to be more shareable.
So, you know, if you look at your computer every day and so an ad that shows me my computer. Then maybe, you know, I'm going to be more likely to remember the ads and to, to share it when I'm with friends. When I look at my computer, right. And yeah. And principles like that, you know, I'm not going to spoil the whole book, but it's, it's really worth reading.
Um, this stuff, if you, you know, start implementing those sort of principles in your, uh, in your ads, you're going to see massive benefits.
Joseph: [00:39:33] Also too is about the, you know, the cultural landscape of the time. Um, w the one, uh, internet ad that really sticks out to me was going back to the dollar shave club is because I think really, I was like one of the first internet ads I remember seeing.
And it was so influential that it just became an amusing video to watch it in its own right. In his time. And respectfully things are getting it got rather PC around that point. And so for this guy to come in and say our races, no, they're fucking great. And so that alone is like, it sticks out. I must have seen that 10 years ago and I still remember it just because of how distinct it was compared to everything else that was going on at the time.
Matt Panek: [00:40:09] Yeah, this, this, this, this is pretty good. But like one thing we have to remember is that most of the people that say, uh, you know, most of the e-commerce owners paying less than seven figures, they are not going to be able to afford those sorts of productions. So how do you make something that's going to be powerful.
Um, and unprofitable for you, right. Without breaking the budget. So that's important to say that you don't need to have a cinema to graphic production. In fact, sometimes those cinema graphic production actually don't work as well as people imagined. Right. So the thing about marketing and creatives is that, you know, once people see, uh, something over and over again, and everybody follows the same structure.
Um, then they, they almost stopped working. Right. So that's why, like you have to constantly experiment and just constantly monitor tools, like monitor your competitions on tools, like, you know, Facebook ads library, or, um, you know, all those ad spank tools and see what kind of cool stuff new brands are doing.
Right. So for example, like we've made a, I've made a list of like 55 brands that you can follow. Uh, cause it's not just about following, uh, the brands that you that are your immediate competitors. It's actually about following, like all the topic, commerce brands, some brands that you just like, like their ads and seeing what kind of new concepts they're testing and thinking how you can apply it to your niche, right.
Something that's new, something that you haven't seen. And also working with people and, you know, hiring creative guys that are not just, you know, executioners, but if they can actually bring cool well-thought ideas to the table with the customer psychology in mind. Right. But always, always, always like, don't just rely on, you know, like what was very popular, here's backwards, those like Buzzfeed ads, like, you know, very simple kind of, you know, you just.
You know, talk about, uh, there's captions at the bottom, but I find that they, they, they work less and less right. Then let's have a very new product. Uh, so, you know, we constantly have to search for new concepts in four months. That's that are going to be killing it.
Joseph: [00:42:05] By the way, if you're a current user of Debutify or haven't tried us out yet Debutify version three has been released and now is a good time to upgrade or get started as any. A streamlined user interface along with an ever increasing array of conversion boosting ad-ons is waiting for you. So download today for free and start your journey. Who knows, maybe I'll be interviewing you before too long.
So I am watching the time and I know that I only have you for another 10 minutes. So, um, I just, there was a couple of other things. I just want to make sure that we, that we got to, uh, while I still have you. And by the way, thank you for for, for being here so far, this has been a lot of interesting insights, uh, for myself and I may or may not have like pulled up the pair of silt in the video.
I was tempted to just like screen share just for the episode, but I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll skip it because we're on the clock here for people looking to work with you. What would be the, the bar for entry? Um, I guess some of it has to do with the mission of the company, but also has to do with, you know, where they're at. Yeah. You know, what figure range that they're in at that point.
Matt Panek: [00:43:04] Right. So I think that the main things that we're looking we're looking for in our customers is it's not even necessarily their size, but whether they've got some, some sort of, you know, like capability to scale by because like sometimes we are working with startups who have some sort of external funding, like funding is, is crucial.
Like, don't get me wrong, but you have to have some sort of cash, especially to work with an agency. Right. And I, I really don't recommend anyone to work with an agency unless, you know, you're making sort of, you know, consistent cashflow, um, or you have some sort of external backing, right. If you're starting out and who you want to work with an agency, that's probably not the best bet if you're bootstrapping and you're dropshipping, like it's, it's really like important to learn marketing by yourself, right. Because you know, you think it might sound great. So I'm just going to outsource it and stuff like this. But most of the people, including marketers, they have no idea what they are, what they are doing. And, you know, it costs a lot of money and it takes a lot of time to put together a team that's, uh, you know, has the capability that he needs to, to, uh, you know, to take business, to iterate on so many levels, because when you're starting out, you need to be growth hacking on every front. Right? So like, if you're bootstrapping definitely learn your marketing skills. Right. But if you do have some, some sort of success, let's say you're making, you know, even $30,000 a month consistently, and you have some product that has that, that has some uniqueness to it, you know, like, uh, ideally you you're already past the stage of dropshipping.
You've white label, your product, uh, you, or you already ideally have some sort of innovation to it, right then. Yeah. We can definitely have more chats. Check out our website, sales, genomics, the UK. And, um, and, um, we will we'll check if we can help out that's that's number one step, right? Because for us it's an opportunity cost or, you know, our teams, uh, I either work on a project that's going to work out or they get pissed off and just, you know, tell me that, you know, we should have never, uh, we shouldn't take this, uh, this, this brand, you know, it doesn't have the scale.
So we always pay attention to, but we work with them. We're gonna tell you right away.
Joseph: [00:45:13] And there was actually a, you reminded me of a point that I was going to make earlier. Just about the challenge of, um, resonating with the, with the audience compared to, uh, print and media. And one thing that I, uh, uh, wanted to say to that as well is also the uniqueness of the product.
Um, because it's choosing a winning product in, in, in shipping country is tantamount to success. And a lot of it is just the ability for it to be new. Whereas in a lot of other spaces, you know, going back to Colgate or, um, they're selling toothpaste, most people know what toothpaste is. It's not. It's not a pattern interrupt in their life.
That problem has been solved. We're just, now it's a competition between who are the better solvers. Um, you know, the car ads are obviously very popular. Most people know what a car is. So it's, it's a, it's a challenge of which car is right for the consumer. So you don't see as many, um, novel products or, or any new problems being solved on these traditional mediums.
What you see in this space is a lot of. Uh, new products and that alone allows them to stick out in people's minds as well. And then the other thing that I wanted to say too, um, is I, one of the things I appreciate about your, your, your, your metric for who's, um, I deal with the work with is that they have to have some prior experience with advertising, and they also have to have some experience with successful advertising in order to get to a point where they can have a more even a handed conversation with you, rather than them just asking you all the questions and putting all the pressure and onus on you to deliver on something. When they themselves, they don't have that many resources they can really give. So that's, I think an important part too, is that in order to seek service out, you should have some experience yourself as how.
Uh, for, for it to be effective, it makes you a better customer. It makes you a better client.
Matt Panek: [00:46:53] Yeah, exactly. It makes you also, you know, like more in control of your business, right? Like that's marketing is so crucial. It's gonna interrupt shipping is gonna make or break your business. It's, there's no skipping a step if you're, if that's your way, right.
If you're, it's a different way, when you have another product and you're raising capital and you have to focus on other stuff. Right?
Joseph: [00:47:12] So, and there's one of the that I found very distinctive about your service, which is how it differentiates from the structure of a typical agency. Uh, whereas in typical agency, Yeah, and account manager services, the clients, and then the work is assigned to different departments.
You have art, you have creative and I'm based and basing this off madman to be honest with you versus your agency. I looked at the web of it and it was more decentralized. There's going to be a lot more of a relationship between all the different departments. So, um, what, what, what makes the fun, what makes the, the mechanism of your agency stand out from other agencies?
Matt Panek: [00:47:47] Yeah. So what I, what I think is, um, I mean, you know, there are, so the agencies let's call it right. There are big media houses of this kind of very kind of siloed departmental structures. Right. And they are boutique agencies that that's effectively like, especially boots in growth, fucking agencies that, you know, they, they start the gutter, a team that's perfect for this project.
Right. And then this team works very closely together on, um, you know, sharing information internally it's rating pretty fast. Right. So this is, we basically have, you know, like those growth themes that are, that are built for particular clients, you know? And, um, and those teams, you know, they, they work very closely on those, on those iteration cycles on those bro fucking loops to make this possible.
And we find that this, this sort of arrangement just. You know, makes people, especially creative people, more creative because they can focus on, on those clients. Right. And they can really dive deep into the customer psychology versus thinking, okay, like what do I have to do next? You know, what's my next time.
What's my next task. Right? So this is a, this sort of set up is it's more resembling or having a. It's sort of like an in-house department, right?
Joseph: [00:48:53] Right. There is one of the things that I also found distinctive about the agencies. Well, actually there's a number of things, but I'll, I'll have to end on this one, which is also the way that people working with your company are, are, are treated there.
Uh it's it seems to be, it's a very deadline focused and it really gives people as much freedom as, as possible. And so that. Uh, allows them to, um, just focus on the work kind of on their terms. I think that's great. And what I would like to know is maybe compared to some of your previous experiences is how have you seen that fair in results?
Have you seen that the overall satisfaction of the employees has really like improved and enhanced the work, the quality of the work that they provide?
Matt Panek: [00:49:34] Yeah, definitely. So, so it's really amazing to, to be able to, and for me it's normal. Right. But then when I, so this is something that's felt like the only natural solution, right?
To have a workplace where you basically have, you know, like there's no fixed hours, there's no nine to five expectations. You can take vacations. No, no. However much you can. And you're going to still get paid. Right. Nobody's is bagging you except for, you know, the calls that you have scheduled. So this is a great workplace that's I always wanted to have.
Um, and we just, we just built it. Right. And I think what it does is it, it, it does screen out a certain portion of people. Cause there's, you know, some people come to the company and they say, oh my God, it's, KLT like, what's my, you know, what should I do next? And you know, I really don't know what to do.
Right. Because let's say the, the onboarding is never perfect. You know, by the time we perfect it, it's already outdated. So it's like you really, from the moment that you entered the company, you have to, you have to be able to find your own world. So as the right people and stuff like that, but it's also what makes, what makes it exciting.
And, uh, and I think, you know, we attract the people who value the freedom and responsibility, and to really just want to learn from the best, with the best and the, and just have an exciting kind of lifestyle, whether they just want to have the freedom and view of their family, um, or they already want to travel the world. And while working right.
Joseph: [00:50:58] And I think it also reflects to just the way that, um, we're culture in general is, is evolving and that because if you look at the major revelations, um, we're, I mean, we're not quite a quantum speed yet, but we're pretty close. And so a lot of there's a lot of adaptation in the industry today, which there just wasn't in the nineties and eighties and you know, the further back you go, the more disparate the major revelations are.
So that kind of environment is really like the future. And that is the kind of thing that people have to be ready to deal with.
Matt Panek: [00:51:27] Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah, it's, I'm really excited about where it's going. And there's a great book I read through the year without pants, both WordPress. That's pretty cool. Yeah.
Joseph: [00:51:38] Uh, you've been nailing on the book recommendations today.
Matt Panek: [00:51:40] The workplace is like probably the biggest remote company.
Joseph: [00:51:43] Awesome. All right. Well, well, Matt, uh, this has been fantastic. Uh, and I I'm, it is just at 10 o'clock. So I know I gotta get you on ad here. So if there's any final words you want to say to our audience, parting wisdom, answer to a question you didn't ask.
Whatever you feel like you're, you're more than welcome to. And then you have told us where to find you where to find your agency, but you also have some content too. So let the audience know where they can find your content.
Matt Panek: [00:52:05] Yeah, absolutely. So we have a YouTube channel called, uh, e-commerce scaling strategies by SalesGenomics. I always get it wrong. And we have a, actually a Facebook community under the same name. If you're doing more than 20, 30,000 downloads since not the beginner community. Definitely. But if you're already advanced. Then, uh, join our group as well under the same name in commerce skinning strategies by sales genomics.
Joseph: [00:52:30] Excellent. Well, to my audience as always, thank you for your participation. There's definitely a lot to think about in the future and frankly, a lot to look forward to, you know, it's it's I was, I was prepared to ask you about, you know, what's, what's going on. How are things in, uh, in Poland right now? And then. Yeah this morning, I'm like, oh no, he's in, he's in Dubai. Well, things do change pretty fast, don't they? So, yeah, that's just the world that we have to look forward to. Um, and with that, uh, Matt, once more, I thank you so much for your time and your insight. It, uh, it means a lot and, uh, take care of which I consume.
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