icon-folder-black Agencies Customer Engagement Customer Experience

Matthew Barnett - Video Messaging, The Future Of Marketing And Connection

icon-calendar 2021-01-15 | icon-microphone 58m 30s Listening Time | icon-user Debutify CORP

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The fine people at Bonjoro reached out to us and we're eager to bring their distinct perspective, brand service, um, information to us and we were happy to host them. Matt Barnett the CEO, AKA Papa bear talks to us about their service that spoiling the whole thing here and now is building towards a life with more profound connection. Especially, I appreciate it at a point in time where there is a desperate need for it. So for those worried about a grizzly future, you might find insight. It can actually be quite warm and fuzzy. 

What started as a sales hack for an Agency he was running, Bonjoro went from hack to side hustle to global business in 18 months, and now has a team across 5 continents. A British designer by trade, Bonjoro is Matt Barnett’s second company, founded out of Sydney Australia.



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Matt Barnett: [00:00:00] So I would encourage companies to really think on brand earlier in the process. I think their branding culture should be the same. This is much easier as well to have a single voice internally and externally. So the way you should talk and treat team members is also the way I teach, treat, talk to and treat customers.

And a lot of organizations, those are very different, which makes it more complicated. I like simplicity. Just keep all the same. It's easier. 

Joseph: [00:00:30] You're listening to Ecomonics, a Debutify podcast. Your resource for one of a kind of insights into the world of e-commerce and business in the modern age. This is Joseph. I'll be presenting a wealth of industry knowledge from interviews, with successful business people and our own state-of-the-art research. Your time is valuable, so let's go.

The fine people at Bonjoro reached out to us and we're eager to bring their distinct perspective, brand service, um, information to us and we were happy to host them. Matt Barnett the CEO, AKA Papa bear talks to us about their service that spoiling the whole thing here and now is building towards a life with more profound connection.

Especially, I appreciate it at a point in time where there is a desperate need for it. So for those worried about a grizzly future, you might find insight. It can actually be quite warm and fuzzy. 

Matt Barnett of Bonjoro, it is good to have you here. Thank you for being on Ecomonics. How are you? 

Matt Barnett: [00:01:29] I am awesome. Thank you. Great to be here. 

Joseph: [00:01:32] Good to have you. And I'm happy to point this out in the interest of transparency that your company was the first to reach out to us to want to be on the show. And, uh, I, it gave me a chance to look into something unique that I hadn't had a chance to look into before. And so I definitely would encourage anybody who, you know, if you, if you enjoy this episode, if you enjoy other episodes, feel free to reach out to us. We are trying to complete the e-comm puzzle by putting in as many pieces as we can. And Matt brings a very interesting piece today that I'm happy to talk about. So let's start off by warming up the audience with the question of all questions.

Who are you and what do you do? 

Matt Barnett: [00:02:08] Um, my name is Matt. I am the packer bear at a company called Bonjoro.  I'm based in Australia. We're based around the world. I sit across product sites and essentially it is a platform that lets you send a one-to-one personalized videos at certain points on the customer funnel. To either help with new customer conversion with, um, repeat driving, repeat purchases or driving reviews, testimonials and referrals.

Joseph: [00:02:33] Now this platform is what I would, uh, it was not what I would refer to as what the, a website refers to as a customer delight platform. So, the main motif of this is that this is something that you want people to not just feel like they're being kept in touch with, but you want really, you just want to make people happy.

And the end, the motif that you refer to yourself as the papa bear, uh, encapsulates this, because this is a company that. Is about fun and positivity and sending a positive message to people. So, yeah. Uh, did you guys invent the name, customer delight platform? And have you seen this idea take root? Have you seen other, uh, operations or other websites also consider calling themselves a customer delight platform?

Matt Barnett: [00:03:13] Yeah, so I would say we coined it. I haven't seen it used anywhere else really to date. It's kind of like when we say delights, what we're, what we're talking about is something that's unexpected to a customer. Generally. It's a positive outcome as well. And so I think when you look at that, obviously there's many, many things that can, that could do this as of tools that are used in isolation.

What we're trying to look at is can we start to bring these together? I think we take more of a scientific approach that if you're doing the lights. It's not just for the sake of doing it. Yeah. The reason is because you're trying to get customers to stay with you as a company for longer, but that's, that's the bottom line we call it, um, reasons, the term lifetime value, which is, you know, it's great to have a customer who buys a view.

Once it's embedded to have only buys a few, five times as embed that habit, he buys me five times and goes and tells everyone else to come buy a few as well. If he gets that point, I think one, the one, the, one of the ways to get there, obviously great products, but then outstanding customer service, and then just a unique.

I think customer journey that surprises them, shocks them out of their day-to-day routine and gets them to remember you. And I want to go talk about you. 

Joseph: [00:04:17] And then I have a little bit of like a, of a personal, um, campaign within my own company is that we do our, we do our meetings and they'll be in Google meets like, yeah, it's Google meets and everybody will have, will be on their call, but one or two people at max will have their videos on.

And I personally advocate for it, I believe in having the videos on. And the reason why is because, especially in the time that we're living in right now, where most of us are locked up within our own homes. We need every chance we can get to connect with other people. And you can connect with writing.

You use your own imagination, but the difference in connection between writing and seeing somebody, uh, seeing them physically, even you and I are, we're looking at each other right now. I know this is an audio podcast, but we turn on the zoom calls. The difference it makes is substantial. At least from an emotional perspective, but have you guys seen the data to back this up? Have you seen a major returns, major improvements in customer longterm value? 

Matt Barnett: [00:05:17] Yeah. It's two parts. It's called the science side of it, which is if you look into how humans communicate. So yeah, we've obviously evolved as social animals. The reason humans are successful is because we were able to function in highly performing groups.

Um, but within that communication was key and. 70% of communication is visual. Again, I'm sure you've heard this coin before, but you've obviously got like the tone of voice is the other part, but, um, you know, like how we move our facial expressions, what the gestures were doing. So really when you talk about like using words, being wordsmith, the reason most of us abandoned this is because this is not natural to us.

It's a learned behavior. Whereas communicating face-to-face, isn't, it's an innate behavior that we were born with. So if you look at video, Well, the things I'll say is that there's, there's really no learning curve. Um, I know us get a little bit nervous on video, but if you start talking like video video is just like, we don't even think we even use the word video.

We're just like, we're talking face to face. Like, like you you're in Canada, I'm here in Australia. We can be sitting in the same room, having the same kind of chat and we'd be like 90% of the way there. Um, on text, I've got no idea, like really who you are. So if you look at that and you put that into a funnel, Um, what we see is people tend to use us.

So one of these use cases in e-commerce is actually driving things like Trustpilot reviews or Google reviews. When you reach out to a customer after you've delivered a product and you say, Hey, Jane, just checking in. And I want to make sure that what you've received is what you expected. If you're having questions about, please let us know, by the way, if you are happy reviews, mean a lot to us, please go leave a link here, just taking the time to that.

Say it again. There's no training curve here. Anyone junior, anyone in the company has been there three days can get out and do this. It's not hard. And then get a great result straightaway. I was appointed to, you know, writing and doing email campaigns as you don't have to be wordsmiths there's available training time.

So you can get results with very little inputs. If the other side is like, as a recipient, when we see someone and we see the genuine and we can tell that like, but then. Seconds of, you know, looking at them to be honest in the way they act, you get this trust thing that comes across. Like you can read people, you understand them, you get here, they are from your lifetime of, you know, interactions with thousands, thousands of people.

And so when you trust them, you go, this is a good person. Like I'll get involved here. And this is not my even taking the whole delight and like customer service excellence part into it. It's just a better way to communicate with very little learning curve. And as a result, we drive in a few times, the response rates of any other platform you could use.

Joseph: [00:07:51] I also noticed too, that there is this I'm calling it an arms race, probably just for the fun of it, but there is an arms race between the platform and the way that we can communicate with customers and the ability to maintain legitimacy. And what I mean by that is that there are a lot of stores out there.

I've been a customer of some of these, by the way, where I'll order a product. I keep coming back to this one. I talked about the sink called hands-free bracket, where they sent this thing. Well, it was delivered, but it was delivered to somebody in Quebec and I never got it. And then I go to the website to see if I can talk to them about it and then went down.

But visa took care of me a point is that, I mean that not only made it difficult to trust them because they no longer exist, but it did kind of lower the overall. Perception of these. Cause I, you know, I'm on Instagram and I'm on Facebook and I'm seeing lots of ads. And I think before I've had that experience, I would probably be skeptical, but I was still like, you know what?

I like to look a little bit looking at this product, but because I've been burned by it, it does increase the standard for trustworthiness. And so what I'm getting from you from Bonjoro is that it really raises the bar and trustworthiness, but even beyond writing, I find at least like quality writing, there is a level of legitimacy to it because, okay, well somebody had to write this.

If I was really skeptical, I would copy and paste their writing, put into Google and see if somebody else had written it and they plagiarized it. You know, I'll let it go. But this is, this is a whole new. Uh, this is a whole new game that we're talking about here. How so? How long has this been going on for how, uh, if you want to let us know like how you got into this too, cause I've seen some of the backstory for this.

Um, you were working at a different company and you guys started doing this to solve your own problems. So let us know like where it is right now in the overall e-commerce space. 

Matt Barnett: [00:09:34] Yeah. So it has to be the launch 2017. We have an agency. And so we had the little clients, if you live in Australia and you have world aspirations, All your customers overseas because great place to live.

No one else lives here. So we know what we thought. Oh, he finds the customer the different time zones. So we were using videos where you connect with them. Um, I'm not a wordsmith while I'm talking. Uh, and so, you know, I would take a very into work, which would go past the opera house, which was pretty, everyone knows.

So I do videos as we went past. Welcome new, new leads, a board. We have trouble that our response rates, long story short one also, they could use it. We sat in the pub with fevers and built it. They started using it. The customers started using it and then they kind of overtook the original business. So it was, so it was to solve a pain point of our own, um, where, you know, we were great at face-to-face.

We weren't great online and time zones, just through a whole kind of span of the works. Um, we then started, yeah, we started kind of following that rabbit hole. If you like it, wasn't like we start off with day one with a strategy to go and take over the world. Uh, we would just, we actually got quite surprised by the we're like, okay, let's, let's see where this goes.

Um, as a result econs was, was starting to go grow as a customer base. Like last year, I'd say comments, start to come in, um, off a few use cases. And then as of March this year, that was a fundamental switch where, you know, went from of probably like 4% of my user base to like 15, 20% of our user base. Um, which is massive, um, cause we call it big user space anyway, and that has been driven by obviously a takeoff of e-commerce this year we've carved starts to get into very much around the review space.

The other thing is I've seen a lot of changes in e-commerce models. Um, and one of those is moving to subscription models. So I was reading a divestment, like, you know, it used to be like 7% of e-commerce pre this year was, um, offered subscription models. And now it's 14%, which is again, like an insane change, uh, because you have these subscription models, you have e-commerce companies looking at this thing called lifetime value.

So as you feel that for the first time, which is when you have someone paying you on a monthly basis or annual basis, How do you make sure that person keeps paying you and keeps pay you and stays longer? And so you start to getting almost into the same mentality that you'd have in the SAS and of software companies, which is there.

How much are they worth over the lifetime? What does the term, but how do we keep them longer? And so he starts the end of attention. And so that's where, we're where we traditionally we use mostly. And now e-commerce is starting to pick this up. Right? So it's interesting. You see as kind of blend of where e-commerce is starting to go and move into like software subscriptions and you start seeing, because you pay it, pay that space and we've been very effective and e-commerce is a very process driven environment.

Um, and the way that our platform works is that it's not off the cuff. It's always no customer did X send the video. So we're very much a process-driven system. It fits and melds with that perfectly. 

Joseph: [00:12:30] Now, is that the only part of the, of the funnel where it just it's just applied in the retention or have, uh, customers or even your guys uh, considered or implemented it in other parts of the funnel as well. Like have you tried using it during acquisition or decision or any part at any other part of that? 

Matt Barnett: [00:12:47] Yeah, so of course bias, we use it all parts of the funnel. So we used a lot in threes and sales. We used in inbound leak aversion. We use an activation if your online courses and SAS fees and upgrades of attention and then referrals.

And then we use at the end of the following college, it advocacy and gain. People's count. Talk about you. Uh, which, which I think is the most exciting part of the funnel, because I think. A lot of companies fail here. I think we all have a habit of focusing on new customers. Um, I think on, on new customers first, I think next thing is like, okay, we tend to have existing customers, this little thing called advocacy or super fans.

This boy I think is awesome. Yeah. Is making people don't get 10,000 customers get thousands that love you. And that will go and talk about you like openly online and events and wherever else. And have you got the happen that then each layer that has to be able bring you 10 more leads? Like that's your business for life?

Um, I think getting that to happen as a process is hard to do. Um, I think again, most of us kind of get part of the way there, but I think if you, if you focus on things like delight and surprise, this is the kind of stuff that makes you stand out. This is the kind of stuff that connects customers with your team and your people.

This is the kind of stuff where people are going to go, these guys different, and they're going to actually want to go and talk. Proactively about you. If you never get that to happen, you just solved your biggest growth lever and it's free and it's cheap. And the leads that come in from that are always much more highly converting.

So that's kind of the idea funnel, I think is actually most exciting, most untouched on a ramp for hours, if you let me, but you know, we come in all parts, if any part needs to be, needs to be solved at any part, I would say to any business to focus on, I'd like to be looking at that side rather than the top of the fall.

Joseph: [00:14:29] Hmm. So actually, one thing I want to get back to because you were talking about subscription models and. Just from my experience having, I I've done a couple of subscriptions and I'm only unembellished, I'm only talking about physical media. I'm not talking about Netflix for this. So I break them down into two sides.

There's, consumable product. So let's just say I a dollar shave club, for instance, there's I only use it so much, uh, by the time I'm done with it, there there's another one in, and actually I am on a subscription model right now. I subscribe to Quip. So I get the electric toothbrush every three months. Um, and then on the other side there is, and I don't know if this is the efficient term for it, but I guess I would call it a cumulative subscription models where you're getting like t-shirts or you're getting toys or doodads cups. Um, and I think that there's a, more of a difficulty with the accumulative ones. Cause I think people get burned out of those where, okay, this is like the eighth, the box that I've gotten now is like the eighth shirt I'm going to have to start giving them to my friends. So. Have you noticed that there is a more difficulty in one side or the other and what people have done to, uh, address getting people from burning out on a product that they can't eat unless they eat shirts, which no one does. That's crazy. I don't know why I said that out loud, but you understand my meaning. 

Matt Barnett: [00:15:43] Yeah. Yeah. Like I said, like consumables. Absolutely. If you have looked at subscriptions seriously as Expendables company, then you should be doing that. And it's hard by the way. It's hard because the examples, again, if you'd done a year ago, you'd be winning.

Um, I think in terms of non-consumables, but so the models I see work better here or where there's variation, um, and potentially delight and surprise again. So one of the things you're paying for here is to be surprised and, and to have an unexpected results. So harder than the t-shirts model, but like the whole idea of, of boxes and boxes around X or Y or Zed, like, so like kids toys as one.

So I think there's like one, was it like some of the ones I've seen that done really well are, uh, like learning platforms for children. And the point here is that with, with a child they're going through development. And so that changing over time. And so when these boxes are coming in, though, the ones that done well are leveling up and they're offering different, um, things to do is the faculties over lifetime, a child.

Now, if you take that same car mentality and you apply it to like adults, we also have things where, where we learn and we change over time. So it might be that you, I mean, you can have that. You can have subscriptions on studying education. Like, like a one extreme, but obviously you're going to be getting better and better than that for your learning through it, you know, if it's things that you are learned do so you might be doing courses in, uh, let's say, um, by modeling, but so then what you're doing there is you're getting more and more complex models over time, rather than just the same stuff again and again.

So I, I think we can do this. You want to look like, and this is one, this is one area of it. But I think if you're in the area, if you know where you can challenge users and so each time they get it that they're experiencing some indifference, that's the key. And so if we tap like full circle back to t-shirts, then my suggestion would be, you need to try wildly different passions and types.

Um, you know, where user could be like, am I a wife? Be the guy I'll I'll. Whatever light it's here. I'll put it on and see if it works. I mean, I mean, may, maybe that may what elements again, I'm just going to be riffing here, but I think if you can mix things up and systems back to the delight. So if you go back to the lights, the light doesn't work.

If you do the same thing again, and again, you just be amazing, right? Send every customer, you know, sponsor Kuala for customer. Yeah. And they're like, Oh, this is amazing. I get baby qual pitches. Do that again. And again, and again, they're like, I've already got 18 quals and sponsoring. Like it's no longer surprising.

So next time, sponsoring Australia. Next time I do these with differently. I think you have to like, like your mind likes acceleration. So it's the same as being in the car. We, we thrive on, on change. So, you know, new experiences and change or what, so like driving a hundred Ks in that 100 miles an hour.

Isn't that exciting? Going from 20 miles an hour to 40 miles an hour in two seconds. Like that's exciting, even though it's the most low bar. So get the change. It's not about having the most amazing thing and the most expensive thing in the best product, it's about changing that dynamic. And that's what keeps us interested as a human.

So I think maybe, maybe just think creatively around that and how you can bring that into what it is that you're offering. And if you have a system that is not subscription, but you think you have, you can, you can play on this start to consider it seriously. It's very, it's like subscriptions are easy to test.

There's loads of plug and play solutions. Shopify has like plug and play payments for subscriptions. You can just test it if no one buys it. You know, you haven't lost that. 

Joseph: [00:19:21] Like, you know, when you mentioned childhood education and mathematics, given my own mathematical skills, which are lacking. Realize that maybe I should just get one of those anyways, keep it, keep it around for when I do have a kid just to run through my bed mass again, just, just for the sake of it, a great answer, by the way that Metro does quite, quite a few new ideas that even I hadn't considered.

So I go through the Bonjoro, a website, um, as part of my preparation and one quote sticks out to me is that Badra says it sends the videos and to leads and customers at just the right moment. Now I said that to me initially and initially I think, okay, well, there's like a trigger there where, um, to say like the F they find out that it's delivered and it's integrated with a delivery app.

They said, okay, it's delivered. Send the video now, did I nail it? Or like, will I be using my data to figure out the best time? Or is this something that  has data to share with the customer? I can actually figure out when is the optimal time to send it? 

Matt Barnett: [00:20:22] Yeah. So you of now that, that is that we do it in response to triggers.

So at the moment, it's a little more simple. So we actually are investing in and try to tell you Wednesdays. Exactly. Um, but so for instance, we actually have all these, these, these things called funnels where you can kind of plug and play and we'll set up for you. So if, if it is doing, um, driving Trustpilot reviews or kind of, um, uh, Google reviews, there's two common triggers.

One is straight off the purchase. Uh, the bender trigger is actually stood off, off delivery. So if you have your app, which has been delivered, we actually suggest like a 24 hour wait period after delivery, let them open at first. And then, and then the pretense is one word here, but the reason you're reaching out is for customer service excellence.

So you actually checking in to make sure they're happy with the product. And that is like, everyone's going to, going to open that and kind of watch that because of that reason. But the real reason you're doing it is cause the end of it, if you're happy, here's review like go here. So these are pre-built funnels that we have where that proven before, where other, other e-commerce customers have used these.

And we know that these work there's also free form functions. So if you want to build other triggers, which might be, we have customers who go look, we'll wait until someone's done a third purchase. Because you have a thousand a day. We'll wait. Only if people who've done three purchases or more and we'll segment out those.

And we'll only contact those because no, those are repeat customers that is worth us spending our time on those to drive them on to either discounts for thank you is, you know, high ticket items, premium items or subscription models at that point or reviews, testimonials, et cetera. So you can't build a damn Billy's files.

We try and prebuilt as much as we can for you over time, you will see us. We all look into the intelligence side more. So can we almost look into your Shopify data and say, Hey, based on what we've seen on a thousand other, other, other e-commerce customers, and based on what you do and your ticket price, the system is going to going to say, don't, don't send videos to these customers sent to these ones.

Cause that's where you're going to get your ROI on time, because there is a time cost of this. Absolutely. And so it has to work for you as a company in terms of time versus the extra revenue it makes you as a company. 

Joseph: [00:22:35] Yeah. And I think it also depends too, on what expectations you set for the brand. So just pulling an example out of thin air, if there was a brand that had a lot of strength in photography or videography, obviously they would want to use this video for, uh, for that.

So. It's not like there's just a quick, thank you note from, uh, from the CEO or something, it might be something a little bit more involved. So it would be up to the user to decide how much resources they want to put into it, but I can see how it could end up kind of going to getting away from them. And then they ended up spending a little bit, too many resources into it.

Yeah. So we're going to get, we're going to get back to it, like into the integration and some of the more technical stuff. Um, but there's something that I'm dying to ask you. And we established this in our, in our pre-chat about the vision for this, because being a reasonably large nerd, one of the first things that crossed my mind when I'm discovering this is the scifi implications of this, um, anybody who's seen.

Yeah. We've you you've seen, uh, I don't know. I guess star Trek, but I don't know if they have, yeah, they're definitely star Trek. I'm pretty sure blade runner did it, but the idea of checking, um, direct messages from each other and those messages being video messages is where this is all going. And I'm hard pressed to see that not happening.

I'm not really sure. Like, I, I don't see us regressing from video back to text or from audio. I really think that it would get to the point. And you mentioned earlier that we don't really like calling a video. We're just doing it cause we can't help it. So, where do you see the, uh, the future of growth for this?

Where do you think this is going to end up? And what infrastructure are we looking at right now? That's kind of like getting in the way of keeping us from saving, able to send messages via SMS. 

Matt Barnett: [00:24:22] Yeah. So we actually think about, of where we go with, this is actually the idea of personalization at scale, and we're trying to have like a lot of lights.

So we haven't got the wide term here because. Like everything, personalizations, carbon ruined by marketers. So I'm like, okay, well, we actually is like, is like actual personalization, authentic personalization, where, where you are actually spending 30 seconds. For Jenny from Oklahoma, who's bought X like X what's that rather than just, you know, dropping in like, like an app name tag, first of all, about that, there's a huge movement towards personalization.

Obviously. Like it, any comms is not just comms, but like, if you have ads at the right time, you know, if someone's doing consumer products like offering, you know, re re-targeting at the right time, when they're ready to consume that product again. Uh, there's a whole piece around personalization. I think when you then bring that into the video, naturally just falls into this anyway.

Um, I think there is a point you want to get to on that where every customer experience is different and it's unique to the individual and they feel valued for it. It's not, it's not all the automation there. We always say like, well, automate process, not relationships. That was kind of the key here. When we start, think about video and where this goes from here.

I mean, like it's, it's not so living in Australia, we're very multicultural, especially in car Sydney and become Melbourne by multicultural city. We are a country of immigrants. I'm an immigrant, I'm from the UK originally. And so you always see, I remember like going to work on the trains and the fairies very early on here.

You see people every morning on Skype, on their phones to family. You know, in other countries it was always personal. So it was very much, um, consumer the consumer, rather than competencies that start shift where now you're starting to see on business more this year is accelerate that. So I think you get to a stage where I don't think writing and audio will go away.

I think they have their place. Um, I, I I've even read stuff that audio is, is actually on the virus now as well, because I think things like running and stuff, you know, like. But that's on play and this is why podcasts kicked off massively. Um, but I think in terms of just quick messages, coms videos is coming into all points of that comms platform.

I think there's data moves of helpless. I mean, here in Australia now was done to launch 5g, but tell the conspiracy theorists, but it's all pretty good. Um, and that now means that data is like, so, Hey, data's not the discern, it just isn't anymore. And you'd be in the desert in Australia, which is pretty barren.

But he'd get perfect network. It's, it's kind of crazy. So I think there's limitations that be lifting. We see in conflict with countries. So places like, you know, um, Malaysia, Africa, that's obviously a little behind that, but that is catching up massively. I was in vanawatu the other year. And you own these islands in the middle of nowhere where they don't necessarily have.

Clean sanitation. And yet everyone is on Facebook, on their phones and you're like, bath is like, it kinda hits home. You're like, this is the future. So that if you're going up the cyber things, I think video is just a natural way to calm, to communicate. I think when now training ourselves, I think that is a training thing because I think traditionally video's been on a pedestal and we think of film and TV, not, not what we're doing now and now everyone's realizing, Oh, it doesn't matter.

So I think it's not the happen. We can have a more disconnected world as well. With like being you encounter, here's a great example. This is normal now for us to know what happened and, and then you start to think, okay, well then where are you getting that distance? It's like, VR has never really taken off on like, of course it hasn't because you can't go from text to VR, you have to go to video first and then you have to go to the augmented video and calm and more in depth video.

And you have to train people to communicate that way. And then when you start to put people in environments so mean you can be sitting in a room they're having having a virtual coffee together. Suddenly that starts to make sense. It never, it never did before, because who's going to do that. Everyone has to have it for it to work.

What everyone's got video. You can't like most of the way there. You just give me another nudge. So I think we gained to that. I think that will happen now a lot sooner than words on I think again, it's inevitable that with me in Australia and new in Canada, I would love to be sitting in a room with you where.

I can see there's one, obviously a face, but I can't see your, your gestures. And like, I have no idea how tall you are or if you're skinny off your fat, like everything else I'm like, which all kind of like influences how you think about people. So I think that's the next stage we're going into. So I'll talk a lot there, but a lot of things, but.

Joseph: [00:28:39] Yeah. And you also can't, well, maybe you could figure it out, but I'm recording in my closet because it was in the apartment. So I don't know, maybe some things are left better, uh, better left on undiscovered. Not that I mind or anything. Um, but there's a couple of interesting points there that you, that you raised.

And one of them is about, there is a, there is an inherent. Uh, value to video, uh, cause you're saying that audio and writing will always have their place and they will. Um, I mean, I think people will realize at scale how, uh, harmful light can be, um, closer to your bedtime, but I think books will actually have a resurgence.

And in fact, they probably already have where people will want to get back to reading at the end of the day, or even at the beginning of the day before they blind themselves. First thing in the morning. But also with video is that, and, and me from my background is I did, um, I did background acting for about a year and a half, two years.

I enjoyed it immensely, even at some of the really hard days, it was a blast and they're filmmakers. So it's just, they're just making, making movies. People will pay, pay money. Well, you know, once upon a time they go to theaters, uh, buy popcorn, they eat it. The amount of resources that went into making a film, blew my mind.

Um, it's a quick story for comparison sake. So, uh, I was in the Handmaid's tale and I was, uh, in background for a scene where, uh, one of the characters is just walking up the subway from the train to the outside, having a conversation that took eight hours by the time that we showed up to get our wardrobes all sorted out to get in place, takes reshoots, move the cameras around different angles.

And then I sat in the theater and I watched, uh, 1917. And knowing what I know about how hard film making is I was just blown away by the work that goes into it. So, so when you say that, um, video, I don't know, people might not be getting it like the correct amount of credit. It actually does have like a lot of inherent credit to it because I think we recognize inherently the resources that go into it.

We recognize that there is data involved. There's batteries involved, there's light involved. And also depending on how you make the video. There is audio and there was writing involved in it as well. So that's just one point that I want to draw about video is that it does encapsulate a lot of what makes a quality experience.

The other bullet points that I want to raise about VR. Uh, it appeals to gamers because gamers are used to projected themselves into an ultimate reality through the usage of an avatar. Even though we're just picking up a controller and we're just playing a character on screen. Depending on how immersive the game is through the use of video and audio.

Um, and also the freedom to control something that does immerse into it. So I have noticed that virtual reality has been more accepted in the gaming community than in, I don't know, accounting or anything like that. 

Matt Barnett: [00:31:20] I think, I think you'll see it in. So I think you see it in personal situations first. So I, I would argue it will follow the exact same direction that video did.

Um, it's interesting because like audio telegrams was all about business and kind of like that before it wasn't possible because of cost. Whereas now video again, back to example, it was always Skype first, which has been knocked off of his phone by, by things like zoom, which is, which is predominantly business because, and that's Jeff has happened BR so again, because like you said, environments and trust somebody else, you know, I, I would probably use it to sit in a room with my dad and have a.

Have a glass of wine and he's in the UK, I'm here in Australia. That that's the way we'd use it. First by first and foremost, gamers are using it with friends and just environments and it's very immersive and that was easily other realities, but there's no reason why VR can just be my room here with my couch.

It doesn't have to be exciting. And the verse of love is the element to it. But I think when you start to think that you're missing the point, it's more about. It's about triggering your brain to believe that you're in that you're there with someone, which again, because of 6 billion, years of evolution is going to trigger, answer behaviors and make you more comfortable and make you feel more connected to that individual.

So I think that's what you were looking to do. Business-wise it will come in to the point that it's needed. Again, it will come in when everyone has it. Because if any one of you has it, it doesn't, it doesn't matter if I have what else. So again, personal, I think will happen first. Debbie is here now. I just think the fact that we're so comfortable video and the fact that we are dropping that pedestal means that stepping into VR eventually we'll be like, I am, this is fine.

Yeah. Not, not where we do that or whatever else. And then obviously access, you know, like costs, costs, and, uh, like market penetration of devices is a huge part of this. So what are the easy ways, you know, we'd have to get them on a massive headset. Has that kind of work. That's the other barrier to overcome, but we've come over.

We we've overcome many other technological. I mean, I'm here with like electricity in their economy, you know, like this will just happen again. 

Joseph: [00:33:24] I think, I think you raised a really good points there. What are the one thing that sticks out to me as, um, Is maybe instead of the, the headset, it would actually go or more like the holographic route where people would just like project themselves into it.

Uh, yeah. Okay. Th those are, those are, those are fair points. Uh, so let's get back to, uh, let's go back to , let's go back to integrations and the technical side of this. Um, so can you go through the integrations for our, for our lists nurse, how a binder was integrated or what integrations are going with it?

Uh, cause I know I looked at it and I didn't see SMS yet, but we've touched on that. Like. What are working on that. So what other integrations are you looking forward to getting involved in? 

Matt Barnett: [00:34:00] Yeah, so it's two sides, so Warren's obviously on the customer data side. So yeah, we plugged that into Shopify. We also plugged into if you use, um, ESP, so email systems or CRMs as solid Shopify, we plugged into pretty much all of those as well.

So wherever your customers are living, we're plugging in and then there's different triggers different than boys. The funnel. So if you're taking people off, you've got your e-commerce site. If you've also got like a marketing element, we'll plug into that as well. Um, in terms of delivery, uh, we started predominantly with email because there's the one never has, we are actually playing around with SMS, looking into it.

And now we're looking at a social looking man, maybe on website messaging too. Um, so we're easily to reach people wherever they are with sounds, do things like screen recording as well. Um, uh, videos that can be used. So. Maybe not so useful within the comms, but in other systems where people are using it for demos and to walk through accounts, that kind of thing.

Um, but the, on the, on the side, I think the customer data side really just, I think when you have things like you're using like Shopify and using MailChimp, as an example, what's interesting is we see customers who plug us into both, and then you're seeing the same customers at Shopify and MailChimp. And maybe not that journeys a little bit disparate.

So we're in the middle and we're like, we, we, we can cut the dots for you. So we can show you that you sent for marketing messages and that's triggered, someone's come into an EDM and that person's gone bar bought, and then they ended up repurchasing 10 times. And so what, what we can show you is that, you know, this action has resulted in this, and you're saying you're here in the middle of as you know, as driven again, like this much more value.

So it was trying to try and connect those dots of where your customers live and try and again, help me decide where you should be investing like personal time. This has got, as on the automation side, I think that's pretty interesting as well. Um, so really just trying to help you tie as data sources together, try and help you complete, like what's with them before clean customer journeys, rather than like a hundred seamless, seamless customer journeys.

Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. 

Joseph: [00:35:59] Okay, cool. Yeah, I, I'm a, I'm a fan of pitching your, you were trying to come up with another word for personalization and that's now running in my, in my, um, backend internal software to try to think of another word for it. I hate to say it, but I think personalization might end up being the winner. 

Matt Barnett: [00:36:13] But then how do you, how do you, how do you? I mean, this is a brand perception thing.

How do you differentiate that from? Cause it'd be all like personalization. They're like, so you just, you know, it automatically says someone name and I'm like, no, no, we, you have to, you have to put the diamond and do it. They're like, Oh, some people like a hyper-personalization I'm like. That's not the right word.

I'm like, yes, that is it. So this is, this is a conundrum with, with another language. Now you get like, so, cause it was something, it works wild animals. Okay. That's not work anymore. Let's put Uber on top and then hyper and then, and then it just destroys itself and crushes in. Then you have to come the new words.

So I feel like it's just one of those, like it's inevitable that we'll go. 

Joseph: [00:36:51] It's running in my backend. I've got top men on it. So if I get, if I get a, if I get an idea, I'll just email you, uh, or maybe you'll be in the middle of a, of your next, um, uh, answer to the question. I'll just be like, um, you know, with the data that you're collecting you, we, we talked about how you've been able to make some pretty unique observations about the e-commerce space.

I feel like you've brought up some of them already, but just to make sure. Are there any other unique observations about the e-commerce that you wanted to bring to the table? 

Matt Barnett: [00:37:19] So what I say is, is, were we doing, I would start looking into, I started reading probably around how software companies have traditionally thought about customers in terms of value.

And this idea, I keep mentioning the lifetime value. It wasn't a term that was used in the columns 12 months ago. I used to always have to explain it. And now people are like, Oh yeah, lifetime value. And they understand churn. They understand retention and um, upgrades and like whatever else. So I think, well, my suggestions would be if you're not familiar with that space, start to have a look.

Cause these are companies that have dug so deep on to the entire customer lifetime journey that goes over, you know, potentially 10 years, not, not today. And so if you look to where you're going to go down the line, things you can do today, that will benefit you in five years time. I think the deeper you can go and understanding how all these metrics into play and what, what is true, you know, does even matter if you, if you don't have a subscription model, but what is repeat, what is the value of it?

Peak customer like lately, how much should you invest in that versus new leads and  understand this and then also understand how software yeah. Traditionally approach growth, where they're always looking for, like, you hear these growth hacks, it's terrible term. Don't get too sucked in, but the idea of looking for unique growth leavers for you, rather than just copycatting all the other e-commerce companies and thinking more creatively around it again, my suggestion will be software has really dug into this so hard and now I see e-commerce like, I think e-commerce is still in its infancy.

Like strangely enough, I think it's a booming industry. It's going to go faster than like anything right now. I think it's really science-based to be. But with that. And the fact it is quite early, I still think brings massive amounts of opportunity for those of you that are willing to think outside the box.

And again, my suggestion is any idea you have, isn't going to be new. So look to other industries. Um, I think softwares would be good. One like alongside you and look at that and go, what can we borrow from that and apply in the e-commerce space, baby e-commerce companies haven't thought,

Joseph: [00:39:28] You know, over, over this. Um, some of my, my subconscious has been trying to pitch like creative ideas for me because they don't know when to leave me alone, but there are a lot of different things that I can imagine, uh, different brands would do for communicating with their customers. Like. If, if, uh, if it, if it was a sequence of videos where there was like a story to it, where each time they received their subscription, they received the video that continues the story.

And maybe the story is tied into something they receive. Um, I, I, in the same way that comics subscriptions would keep people hooked because wa or drama, dramatic television case, people hooks, like, you know, keep subscribing and then you can, you can find out what happens. So that's just me just kind of like a, a spit balling, because I always enjoy the creative process.

Um, but I do want to know, is. You know, the videos themselves, what, uh, exactly are people doing? What are some of the practices that you recommend for people putting together? Good videos and yeah, like more, let's just focus on the actual videos themselves for a second. What are people saying to their customers?

Matt Barnett: [00:40:26] Yeah. So again, in the way that we use video, it is very much a columns and checking in, but number one thing, don't think about it too much, to be honest, that's probably the best advice I can give. Uh, so it's not about getting your head on. Perfect. I mean, they look like, I mean, like I'm with the band button, like 20% back videos are shot while people like it used to be on commutes to work.

Now that we're a bit more, a bit of a, um, a remote world, people in parks, people like now, most videos are shot in the home rather than the office. Um, if your kids were, then they won't keep, keep shooting people up. This is all about authenticity as well. You know, the more open you are. The more transparent.

You are often the bear that comes back. So yeah, for me, imperfection is beauty. Imperfection is, is what people trust because none of us are perfect. Well, most of us aren't perfect. I definitely aren't. Um, I definitely am not. So if you, if you gave perfection in the videos, That's a good thing. And you'll learn this because you'll start doing it and you'll start saying them.

And then people you'll think, Oh, I didn't the perfect. And people respond and be like, thanks so much. This has meant, this meant a lot to me. And so I think when you, when you start to get the results that will, like you got help about educate , don't think that too much always have an ask. And this is the business hat on is when you're communicating with customers.

But you're doing it. You're doing it for a reason. You know, you don't need to be shy about that. And that's okay. There's nothing nefarious there, but are you asking customers to follow you on social? Are you asking them to join a club or a discount system across subscribe or leave review, et cetera, et cetera.

So again, think about way of driving customers. I think by potentially if you've got someone hooked and you spend time doing something that's really good and they can love. You're allowed to, you're allowed to ask the same back because there's a little reciprocation, you've done some ink, but you have, you have stopped in your day, but most of the competitors won't, so don't be afraid of that.

Um, yeah. And then, I mean like, honestly, like that's kind of it timing, timing. Is there anything that I would say is just, again, work out those, those trigger points and funnels some bias to me, don't send a video a month later. Um, you know, strike while the iron is hot and kind of relevant, I would say, but your workout very quickly, what your style is and what is working for you.

But I guarantee on day one, you'll probably get 80% of the results. So it measures those again, they won gains to perfection takes time, but it's not like shooting a high Def video where on day one, you get 10% and they have to learn over the next two years. Um, it's not that hard. 

Joseph: [00:43:09] Um, what are some, have you seen any, uh, unique approaches to the video from your customers or clients or?

Well, I know that, uh, based on your, your company culture, you really just like the same thing of them as your friends, but, um, I think I just wanted to pay, like, what was the best word for it? 

Matt Barnett: [00:43:23] Yeah. Let it be, I mean, I'm a creative, be my stations be creative. It might involve your brand or what you do in the videos and you'll, and that's a clear winner.

So at least one example I have is we have a coffee roaster. Um, who was using these to send that messages to second time. So anyone who bought for a second time more to India first time, he would then send a message to be like, did you know you've got a subscription? If you do this, you'll you'll save money.

Obviously they were with her first time purchase or he'd be like, you're going to save as much money. Here's the discount he would shoot, or him and his team would shoot all this while they were boasting down in the other factories, the right word, wherever it is, they wrote that. The bean roasting area.

Um, and they would do it with this stuff behind them. And so you get these. And so what they start to do is position the team as not connoisseurs the Carver as like off tastes like, like here they are, and they're doing the roasting. And so you would get by that brand coming across people like this is real.

These guys are actually doing the roasting. That's not, it's not, they should be in from another country or whatever. And so when they do that, people love the fact they were bought into it. Now, now my suggestion is. It's not about the fact that we call for roasting. If you do this in a warehouse, we are shipping.

It's interesting that like, most of us haven't seen that side of things, whatever you're doing, there's a United company who has a company when they're cleaning, dressed in kilts and say, we'll have videos of them where they're creating a kills. It's, it's hilarious. There's a, you know, there's a couple, he does like he does bed.

We have a few companies who do beer products. It's quite, it's quite a big niche. Uh, the one company, the guy, uh, dresses up as a Knight and speaks in, in, uh, , uh, English, uh, as a Knight, it talks about baby products. That's pretty hilarious. And he's not doing those. Like it's all he does is he waits that evening and he doesn't need the videos all in one kind of batch.

Um, but people think it's hilarious. And it ties into his brand and his brand score. Fable beds is all by this guy, the PCR. So when you can tie it together and you can, you can tie in your brand to the messaging. I mean, that's, that's how you get the last 20% that was talking about. That's how you get the videos, where people are mind blown.

And if you can make it a laugh, I mean, we all know that that works wonderfully. Um, but bring them into your world. It's interesting. Like what, what you do. I don't care what your industry is, is fascinating because other people don't experience it. So think about that. 

Joseph: [00:45:49] There's a thought that came into my head.

I chambered it for a little bit here, but I want to get a, I just want to get some oxygen. I'm going to call this the creative crusade where I would say within the last 10 to 15 years, the creative side of. Well, I guess the world has found new pathways into the business world. Um, even somebody like an accountant or something that people might consider to be rather drab can end up doing a podcast or can end up doing something, uh, fun to show their, their, their backside because of their personality.

And. Yeah. I just wanted to point that out because I think we're in one of the things that creative people bring to the table is their ability to understand the need for connection and to find ways to connect people to one another. So I wouldn't want to discourage anybody from, from attempting this, even if they're doing a business that they consider themselves to be rather introverted or insular, there's.

In fact, I would have recommend it more because it would amplify that connection. It would, it would make them stand out over all of the other. Let's just say accountants who, again, keeping to themselves and are considering this kind of thing. 

Matt Barnett: [00:46:58] But, uh, it doesn't create every day. Like, like we've all got creativity, it's natural human traits.

Um, within us, if you're solving problems in any way, that's a creative process. So like, there are things like we think of creativity and things, artists, musicians, and might, that's not. That's one form of creativity. You have creative accountants. That's what makes them awesome accountants. And he only thinks for a box and goes and goes and, um, problem solvers, you know, there's a whole, there's a whole thing with like education, like suppressing creativity and how we've done it know we should, which is being addressed, I think anyway, but I'm telling you, like, you've all got creative bones in your body.

So I think it's just about thinking outside the box and problem solving. Everyone's got it. Like, I believe everyone's got, got it within them. I think there's another thing. The way that we think about creativity naturally is actually wrong.

Joseph: [00:47:48] Okay. That's a great point. I just wanted to point out for myself that maybe there was like a disconnect between the people who like identify themselves as creative because of their main pursuit versus the, the inherent trade within everybody.

Because we all have a drive to create, even if in the most, uh, Basic fundamentally human sense to create life and to end to start a family. So that, so that part is absolutely true. Um, and yeah, I can also say that I've, I've made friends with a lot of people who had a distinctive talents in our tour sinking and they never pursued it because of the way our educational system, which as you pointed out is working on fixing this of just discouraging people from it because it's not.

Transactional or there's no money to be made in it? Well, I can say that's not true anymore. There's lots of things. Uh, even the most creatively inconel inclined people can do to, to get into the industry. 

Matt Barnett: [00:48:38] So I think here's the thing. Yeah. Don't, don't use that as an excuse. Don't say I'm not creative for, I'm going to sit in front of a white wall and do my videos there.

Um, yeah, it's not a good enough, excuse. Like, like there are things you can do that people will love. It's very simple.

Joseph: [00:48:51] All right. So we're, we're, we're around the bend, uh, before we got to wrap this up. So the last thing I wanna talk to you about is just a, you know, your overall brand. And I think we transitioned pretty well into this is, you know, where you got the idea for the bear motif and also, um, talk about your company culture and what you do to, uh, encourage creativity in your, in your, in your team members.

Matt Barnett: [00:49:14] Yeah. So because of what we, uh, and to be honest, the brand has driven like in the end, anyway, we have a open transparent, I'm pretty kind of wacky, eccentric group. I would say, uh, that works for us as a result. We were looking at branding with light. Look, I think a character will be quite fun here. Um, I don't even remember where that, where the bear came.

It kind of by many things kind, going to build from that. So we start with the bat. Logo. Now we send back costumes to kids at some points in the journey that every, every new team member who's the science department saying earlier gets a new a customer so they can build with a bunch of Grammys. And then the ultimate England that knits it for them.

We sponsor quality. We sponsor some bags and in, um, in the Ukraine as well. Um, so we guys went deep on that because we thought it was funny that that was the reason. Um, it turns out everything is fine. So I think with us, because what we're, we're trying to inspire customers to that. Loose a little bit and BIM or be a bit, we'll create a bit more transparent being sales people, confidence.

Therefore we take our brand a little bit more extreme on that front to try and drag customers part of the way with us here. We have people who come into our interests into our funnel and they're like, I think you guys are too childish for us. I'm like, that's cool. This probably isn't gonna work for you.

Anyway. If you think that you're probably not do a good job, the videos. Cause if you're not willing to let go, then it's not right for you. So yeah. But we're very happy to turn customers away who did not fit our brand. And we've made a conscious decision for that. Uh, I would argue that most companies should be a bit more forceful with their brand.

I think a lot of companies fall in the trap of just another brand. Why you kind of, again, this will be the creative hat one and I think Brandon culture, us anonymous. I don't think that distinct at all. So the way we hire and the team that we have in the asteroids we live for, we actually hire on culture first, because if they're not slightly eccentric, if they're not easygoing, if they're not willing to go, go camping with the rest of the team.

And, you know, we fly our team around the worlds where like the U S and U S Europe, uh, Africa and Australia, and then the Philippines where we're very global, we bring everyone together and we will hang out as mates and as someone who doesn't fit now, I don't care. How good you are as a developer or as a product manager or, or, you know, as an STR, you're not gonna get past the starting line.

So I would encourage companies to really think on brand earlier in the process. I'd think the brand and culture should be the same, because as much easier as well to have a single voice internally and externally. So the way you should talk and treat team members is also the way I think you should treat, talk to and treat customers.

And a lot of organizations, those are very different, which makes it more complicated. I like simplicity. Just keep it all the same. It's easier. 

Joseph: [00:51:54] Right? You don't have to even argue just, uh, simply from an emotional side, like this does reflect well in overall productivity, if you indeed. And this is the point that I wanted to make at the beginning of the episode, when I'm encouraging, you know, my own teammates to have their videos on when we have calls so that we can look at each other.

Is that when you endear your teammates to one another, that boosts happiness, And when you boost happiness, that boost productivity. So we don't have to be sappy. We could, if we wanted, we, we don't have to, we just had to say this boost productivity, this retain this creates better loyalty. Uh, and, and even as you say, it creates a more cohesive brand, both internally and externally, and it gives people an easier time, uh, conveying that voice to one another and to enter the customers.

So the, the, the reasons not to do it are pretty slim. And also you pointed out that, you know, you had some people who, uh, dismiss your brand, uh, due to its, um, well, they call it childish nature, which, and it just reminded me of my, I was talking to my mom about a Halloween costume. I wanted to put together and go, uh, downtown.

Uh, this was two years ago and she says, you know, I, I thought you would have outgrown up by now. I says, outgrown it, you know, we're all gonna die. Right. 

Matt Barnett: [00:53:02] But like, again, like build your own brand, don't build my brand, you know? Like it's like, like, dude, do your own thing. Here's the thing you like, like, like good culture does not mean everyone.

It doesn't mean really never has to be nice. You know, there's certain these Pepsi where yours is five and Pepsi, you got to step on everyone's head to get to the top and you got a flight way there. Honestly, like if that's the culture, they hire people who fit that and you like that. Great. Strong brands, strong culture, like they've always done very well.

So it's not about being nice. It's about having a single purpose, a single type of purpose, purpose person, purpose person, and purpose bourbon. Okay. Yeah, the asset. So it's a higher correct for you. I hiked grateful I believe is right. And because we are more of a creative industry, we have to push that by like, we need to, if you're a wealth manager, I mean the best, the best wealth manager I know is a little bit crazy.

Um, but maybe that's in the way for you. So it's again, like have your brand know what it is until the next one and the same. And then by double down, Like focus is always better for business. Anyway, it's always better if ROI, because it's much simpler and he's just doing. 

Joseph: [00:54:08] Yeah. All right. So I got a, I got a wrap up question for you and, but I got one more chambered.

Um, this is more of like a back, uh, background question for you. Um, and I'll frame this just so that you know exactly how I want, uh, I want you to think about the answer to this. So, um, the first person to answer this question in a way that stuck out to me was, uh, Paul Mottley. He's a. Uh, affiliate, uh, expert.

And he went to university for chemistry and I asked him, did his chemistry background come with him in any way? And he said, yeah, it gave me a way to break things down on a fundamental level, look at things at their elements and then put it back together. Uh, so I pose you that same question. Um, what was your background prior to any of this?

And was there any skills that have come with you and are still with you to this day?

Matt Barnett: [00:54:54] Uh, yes. I'm an industrial designer, so I was doing physical product design for years. Cause I'd say, um, we're designed that company. So we put design at the top of the funnel of how we work internally. And you can see this, this comes through in our brand that comes through in the way that we build products can stay in the way that we talk to customers that understand customers and build things for it.

So I'd say a lot of companies in my space are technology led a lot of sales led. With design led and I'm biased, but I think it's pretty good way to go. Um, so yeah, like I've spent very little time doing design these days, but it's, it's in our ethos and it's how we approach problems. So, yeah, absolutely.

Joseph: [00:55:33] Okay. Terrific. All right. Well, that's everything I've got for you today. Uh, I have to say this has been. As I predicted this, put a piece of the ecom puzzle together for me. And, and I thank you for that. I thank you for your time. Um, and so the last thing that I give. I'll give you the floor one more time to do two things.

One is to just remind customers or I guess potentially customers, uh, anybody who is interested how to check you out. And then if you have any parting words of wisdom or anything else that we, uh, for maybe forgot to mention, maybe something I forgot to ask you any last words you want to leave us with. Uh, this is the chance to do it.

Matt Barnett: [00:56:11] Yeah. So if you wanna try it, personalized video messaging, uh, check up on joy. It's free gum board kind each have a five. And your way, if you help them as a parting words of wisdom, we have, we have a lethal. So we live by, which is automate processes and never relationships. And I would think about that. I think about that properly.

Um, the human, the point, the point of process and operations is to remove everything that you, as a human, that have to do so that you can invest in the things that only a human can do. I think when you look at my customers and relationships that that's, that's down to you. That's a great way of looking at it.

And one thing I'll say just to tack on to that too, is that, um, with the way technology is going to, uh, change our lives, my God, these next 10 years, who knows. And, and I don't approach it with any kind of fearfulness, because I think it's going to make the human experience and more human by allowing technology to focus on the human experience and not the experience where we're doing the work that a machine should be doing anyways.

Joseph: [00:57:11] Absolutely. Terrific. All right. Thanks for listening, Matt Burnett, once more, thank you for your time. And we will check in with everybody next episode. So stay tuned. 

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