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Michael Zipursky - Ecommerce Consulting With The Best And Joining Their Ranks

icon-calendar 2021-01-04 | icon-microphone 58m 36s Listening Time | icon-user Joseph Ianni

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Michael Zipursky has the distinction of being the first consulting expert on our show. Known for, in addition to advising major brands like Panasonic and the financial times, teaching over 400 consultants through his agency, the bar has been set fairly high. We all know what consulting is, but you’ve never heard insights quite like the ones I have for you today. Enjoy.

Michael Zipursky is the CEO of Consulting Success® and Coach to Consultants. He has advised organizations like Financial Times, Dow Jones, RBC, and Panasonic, and has helped over 450 consultants from around the world.



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Michael Zirpursky: [00:00:00] Well, the reality is if you're only talking about yourself, then of course, people won't won't want to hear from you. And if you're only being sales-y or promotional in your messaging, then of course they will want to hear from you. But if you're focused on them and you're providing them with valuable information, valuable, valuable materials, insights, ideas, things that can really benefit them, then you're providing a great, you know, a great service.

Joseph: [00:00:21] You're listening to Ecomonics, a Debutify podcast. Your reasearch for a one of the kind insights into the world of e-commerce and business in the modern age. This is Joseph. I'll be presenting a wealth of industry knowledge from interviews, with successful business people and our own state-of-the-art research. Your time is valuable, so let's go.

Michael is a Bursky has the distinction of being the first consulting expert on our show. Known for, in addition to advising major brands like Panasonic and the financial times teaching over 400 consultants through his agency, the bar has been set fairly high. We all know what consulting is, but you've never heard insights quite like the ones I have for you today. Enjoy. 

Michael Zipursky. It is good to have you here. Welcome and thank you for being on Debutify podcast. How are you doing today? 

Michael Zirpursky: [00:01:19] Great. Uh, great to be with you and thanks for having me. 

Joseph: [00:01:21] Thanks for being here. So let's kick things off with the starting question. It's the most important one. It unravels everything from here on end. Uh, tell us who you are and what do you do? 

Michael Zirpursky: [00:01:31] Well, as you said, my name is Michael and for the last 21 years, I've been building consulting businesses, uh, both in North America and in Asia, working with clients all around the world from, you know, small startups and service based businesses, up to large organizations like Panasonic, Dow, Jones, financial times, a whole bunch of others. But for the last, uh, 11 years now through consulting success, we've been helping thousands of consultants and people to become successful consultants and then to really grow their consulting businesses.

Joseph: [00:02:02] I'm hoping we don't get like too meta into this, but initially what I had seen your profile and I thought, Oh, it's a consultant. Oh, but it's a consultant for the consultants. So for our listeners, just so that they understand it, that is what you're doing is that you are, do you just train them or do you also do consultants actually come to you while they're in the midst of their profession and they continue to work with you?

Michael Zirpursky: [00:02:24] Yeah, it's a great question and it's both of those. So my, my journey, again, start off about 21 years ago. Uh, building, uh, multiple consulting businesses and working with clients all around the world. And, uh, around 11 years ago, my cousin, Sam, who is my business partner, we were catching up at a family barbecue, uh, one summer, uh, just talking about what we were each doing. I was running a consulting business and he was doing his own thing. We had actually worked on a few different businesses before that time. And we said, you know, we should do something again together, but this time we should do it online. Uh, and so that was really where the idea for consulting success came from however, Uh, we started off without any monetization plan. We just simply thought we'd share stories of what it's like to be a consultant, run a consulting business, you know, kind of from the trenches, from the front lines, the good, the bad, the ugly, you know, lessons learned. And so, we put that out. Lots of articles, lots of content and a community really started to build around that. People said to us, hey, this is great articles, but do you have a course? We said, no, but we can build one. Uh, and so we put it out, people say, hey, your course is really helping me to become a, a consultant and I'm seeing a lot more success, you know, do you offer coaching or can I work more closely like with you and your team? And we said, well, we don't offer that, but I guess we can. And so we put out a coaching program, uh, and so that's now, you know, uh, been many years where we've work personally, with close to about 500 consultants through our clarity coaching program. Uh, and we've had a boat, well, several thousand people go through our, our kind of course and training programs to become a consultant. So to answer your question, Joseph, it's really both of those groups. Now we have those who are people in the corporate world, or just who have some skill and expertise that want to become consultants that we serve. And then we also have those, who are running successful consulting businesses typically, you know, it can be anywhere from getting started to several million dollars per year in annual revenue. Uh, but the main thing they all share is they want to grow. They want to see, uh, you know, more impact. They want to do it in a, in a leveraged way. They want to achieve a great lifestyle, um, you know, build a team and whatever it is, that's meaningful for them. Uh, that's really what we help them with everything, from getting clear on who their ideal clients are to their messaging, to how to package and position their service offerings and expertise, how to price it, how to win proposals, how to market and generate leads consistently, uh, and you know, kind of everything in between.

Joseph: [00:04:30] That's incredible and one of the things that stuck out to me right away is that people were coming to you, looking for your insight, because you had shared so much of your experience already that people thought, well, this is what they're giving away. What can I like? What can I get out of this person if I talk to them so they can hear my specific story and they can cater the advices specifically to me before I get to like the next question chambered. One thing I wanted to tell you about is prior, before working with the beautify is that I had, I do consulting in the podcast space. Um, I wouldn't say that it's on the same scale as like Panasonic or anything like that. It was mostly just, you know, what I would meet with locals. I would go to the local, uh, podcast gatherings. A lot of people are looking to get their feet wet into it. They didn't really have anybody to turn to and I didn't even intend to charge them any money for it, because again, I'm working with people that are grassroots and starting up and stuff like that. But what I did notice is that it was great leverage. It gave me an opportunity to showcase my experience and my skill set and cater my knowledge to their particular problems and oftentimes that would lead to a great contact. You maybe would turn into work directly, or it would just be something that they can keep in mind in the back of their mind, other than, you know, the revenue. What have you seen that people are using consulting for to, uh, to boost their profile or to gain other, uh, returns out of it? 

Michael Zirpursky: [00:05:53] Well, I mean, consulting is typically a choice that people make, uh, when they want to be, um, the master of their own destiny, right? They want to have control they're, uh, leaving the, in many cases of the corporate world or they've built up their skillset, their, uh, experience, a track record of success. But they, they see the ceiling, right? They see that their potential is being held back there. They have a boss breathing down their neck. Uh, they often are doing work. They don't enjoy as much as, uh, they would like to, uh they're right. Their income is not also like theirs. They just feel like they can't grow. They can't control their own schedule. There's a lot of, a lot of limiting factors. And so, where the reason why most people enter the consulting world is because they want to work with clients. They love, they want to do work, that they feel fulfilled by and, and really enjoy. They want to remove that income ceiling so they can really earn whatever they want to earn. Uh, and they also really value free freedom and flexibility. They want to be able to spend more time with their kids or loved ones or traveling or, you know, whatever it might be. Uh, and consulting is really one of the best ways to achieve that because of the costs of getting started are, are pretty much zero. I mean, it's very low. Uh, so there's very little resistance to, to get started as a consultant, as long as you have skills and expertise, and you can really add value for someone, whether it's an organization or, you know, some other type of, uh, of personnel they're small, medium, or large, uh, then you potentially have the ingredients, the right ingredients to, to be successful.

Joseph: [00:07:23] And one point I'd like to raise too. Um, cause you mentioned about the cost is in the tangible sense. It's not like you have to set up a circus center or anything like that it's so there's very little capital that you have to invest into it. Uh, but one thing that it  reminded me of just my own experience, more from like the art world is that, you know, when an artist is charging X amount of money for a commission, people go, wow, does it really is a really like that much money to it. And the artist says, well, maybe not the paint brush that I'm using or the subscription to the creative cloud but the years of experience that I had built, the trust training that I had gotten at the schools that I'd gone to, the, the mistakes that I had made on my own, that all factors into the price that you see before me and I, and I can see that same relation to consulting as well.

Michael Zirpursky: [00:08:08] Definitely. 

Joseph: [00:08:09] Uh, so you are the first, as far as I know, maybe I forgot to ask if somebody does consulting, but you're the first consultant we've had on this show and I'm going to skip the question about what a consultant is, cause I'm sure my listeners have worked, that went out, but what I would like to do is to get people more of a granular sense of the work involved, because I think most people only really imagine the talking to the client part. So what is the workload on a client to client basis? 

Michael Zirpursky: [00:08:35] Yeah, well, I mean, let's first make a distinction between a consultant and a consulting business owner. Uh, there's a lot of people out there who would call themselves a consultant, uh, but really the way that they operate. I mean, yes, they are a consultant by definition in terms of the work that they're doing, going into organization, or working with a client solving problem, helping to add value, um, really, you know, advising and giving recommendations and so forth. Uh, but a lot of people operate as a consultant, but they're really a contractor. They have one main client, maybe two, um, and they spend all their time doing the work right there. They're delivering. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that, but it's completely different than being what we call a consulting business owner, where you're not just only focused on doing the work and delivering. You're also focused on building a business. And so, that's where you shift your mindset from just working in the business to really working on the business or even above the business, depending if you have a team and, uh, and you know, you're building systems, you're building processes, you recognize the importance of marketing and lead generation. And so by doing that, it puts you in a position where if one of your clients stops or makes a change, you don't freak out because you have plenty of, uh, other people who are kind of waiting in line to, to work with you and so you don't necessarily have to go through the feast or famine or start and stop type of experience that a lot of quote-unquote consultants have, uh, because you've planted the seeds consistently over time to really build a business that is not just about, you know, you doing the work.

Joseph: [00:10:01] Okay. That's fair. I appreciate making a distinction. Um, but I still want to just give people a sense of, cause I don't know if everybody is going to go so far as to run their own business. If a lot of people are just going to either join somebody else's business or even just do it independently. Um, so it's still, even for me, like I mentioned before I had done it, I would say as a, as a personal investment, but, um, what would the people who are working in the agency do exactly. So what kind of research are they doing for their clients? And, and you say that there as contractors only working with a couple of people at a time. So, I mean, how many hours of the week do they focus on, uh, on each individual contract? 

Michael Zirpursky: [00:10:40] Yeah. I mean, you're probably not gonna like this answer because there, it doesn't exist. Right? Like this is the beauty, the beauty of consulting is that you can create whatever you want. I mean, I can show you clients who, for example, work with pharmaceutical companies or others that work with artists or others that work, you know, in design and branding or management or engineering or the environment. Uh, and some of them will be strictly doing, you know, providing, uh, strategic advice, others will be helping to develop strategic plans. Uh, others will be, you know, actually doing the implementation and so there is no number of hours that consultants spends now. I mean, if you go and you talk to someone, let's say who's working at. Uh, Accenture or Bain and Company or McKinsey, they're going to have a lot more structure around how they, uh, you know, they spend their time and depending on whether they're a junior consultant or an associate or a partner or whatever it might be, and typically lower down, uh, on the kind of the, the ladder you're spending a lot more time doing research, putting together slide decks. Things of that nature, as you rise up, you might be doing more of the actual work with clients and the interfacing and the communications and you move even higher up and then you're spending a lot more time on relationships and business development right and bring in new business and, and that sort of thing. But as an independent consultant or a small consulting firm owner, uh, this is the kind of, you know, what makes consulting so exciting is that you truly can structure it to be whatever you want. If you're doing work that requires a lot of research. Um, you know, the first thing that I would say is. Like look at your value is your value really in doing the research? And if so then are you building like a research based consulting practice? Because if you need research to, to help your clients, but you're not an expert in research, you're an expert in helping, let's say to develop strategic plans or to figure out how to, how to grow their e-commerce business, whatever it might be. And, but research is important. Well, you shouldn't be spending any time doing research, right? You should be outsourcing that to get somebody else to do that for you because. That's not your highest and best use of time. So the real role of a consultant or a consulting business owner is to identify where can you create the greatest value and therefore spend the majority of your time in those areas. And then anything else that you need to spend time or think about spending time on you, either need to decide, is this something that is an inefficiency that we don't actually need to have? And can you just remove it or if a sign that is critical to the business, but it's not your highest and best use of time. Then that's, that's a really good indicator that sign that you should outsource or contract to somebody else so that you can stay focused on what really matters, you know, for the long-term success and building of your business. 

Joseph: [00:13:10] Um, so, uh, last week, one of the recordings I did was, was Tyler Jeffcoat, and he does an accounting firm and he specifically works with people in the e-commerce space and a couple of his reasons why he wants to do that is because he's passionate about entrepreneurship and he's passionate about e-commerce and he also appreciates the specific vertical, uh, to e-commerce and the other point that he made too and the one that I want to raise to you in specific is how, if somebody let's just say they hire an accountant within the company, uh, that actually comes at a greater cost. You actually end up saving more money and you get better results if you work with an independent agency. Um, and I happen to think that's probably true for, uh, consulting as well. Now, one of the questions that I want to pose to you is do you find that you're able to accumulate data in aggregate that you can then share with each individual person, uh, better than if say they had an advisor in house who was only focusing on data collected within the company?

Michael Zirpursky: [00:14:06] Well, I think, uh, you know, to your question, it's going to depend on the scale and size of the size of the business. So some businesses are going to warrant and I'll make a lot more financial sense for them. And also much more strategic sense to actually have an in-house bookkeeper or CFO or financial person. Um, that's been proven over and over, but for most small to mid-sized businesses. Uh, they're not going to require that they're not going to have, you know, the economies of scale won't make, won't make sense, but also that the strategic purpose doesn't make sense for someone, you know, an, a calendars or whatever to be in-house full time. Uh, so yeah, I mean, you know, that's most small to midsize businesses can, can definitely get by and should get by, by having uh, external advice on an as-needed basis, but there's, there's no need for them to have, uh, an in-house person. 

Joseph: [00:14:51] So the next couple of questions, uh, this one is geared towards our, our drop shipping. Uh, one of the core assumptions we make about our audience is that they all know about drop shipping. Uh, many are considering it. Some are actively doing it and drop shipping while it is a. It's a fulfillment method. Uh, there is a somewhat of a culture to it too, because a lot of people who get into drop shipping, they use it as a way to lay out a foundation of their experience in e-commerce and then they branch out into other realms. And one of the things I want to do with this episode is encouraged them to consider, uh, consulting directly or even having their own agency. So could you lay out a roadmap for entrepreneurs and the independently minded in, especially in the e-commerce space and with the stores that they're running is, um, how they can get from that point, uh, into, uh, into the consulting space or what methods or what, uh, they should, what experience they should have came late before they consider it.

Michael Zirpursky: [00:15:47] Yeah. I mean, so really for anyone that wants to get into consulting, uh, the most important thing is that you're able to provide value to those that you want to serve and value can be defined in many different ways, but at the end of the day, it's about being able to solve a problem that somebody has or helping them to reach their goal, or kind of that desired future state in a more efficient and effective way possible than they can do by themselves. Uh, oftentimes that will come with you having deep expertise, right? You've solved a problem many times before and you know how to. Uh, solve it better than that ideal client of yours does. So let's just kind of assume for this situation that you do have value or you can provide value. Uh, then the next thing is you want to get very clear about who your ideal client actually is. We call this ideal client clarity. Um, and just saying that you work with small businesses is not enough because, uh, if I said to you, okay, you have an hour right now Joseph's to go out and market, you know, and you say, well, my ideal clients are small businesses. Like where do you even begin? Right. That's too broad, too wide. So one of the greatest challenges that people have is getting clear, first of all, and who their ideal clients really are. And the more narrow, the more kind of defined segment that you have, the more, typically efficient and effective you're going to be because you know where to find those people, you know how to identify them, you know, how to speak their language. Um, but a lot of people, right, push back on that because. It essentially means you have to say no to some potential opportunities, but you know, if you look at, uh, just results over and over, across multiple different industries, the vast majority of people are much better off by getting focused on a specific type of ideal client and defining their area of specialization. So that's the first part. The second part then is once you're clear on who your ideal client is, uh, what you will then want to do is develop a message that will get their attention, uh, and their interests. We call this the magnetic message. Uh, and really this is, you know, to, to have them almost want to raise their hand because, uh, they, they right away feel like you are speaking to them and you can only develop this message when you truly have defined who your ideal client is. Otherwise your message ends up being too general and one of the top reasons why consultants or anyone else out there, um, doesn't see traction with our marketing is because they haven't defined who their ideal client is and they have a very general message. Well, we're all bombarded, right? You know, these days with more media, more ads, just, you know, more of everything that's really vying for our attention and the only way for you to really. Get your message to stand out is to speak to what your ideal client is actually thinking about right now. And so when you're clear on who your ideal client is and need develop a message that really speaks to the, you know, to what your ideal client wants, really resonates with them, then they end up taking notice and they want to learn more. And so the next part of that is then looking at how do you take all those years of, of skills and experience and just what you've done and how do you package it and position it and place value on it and price it in a way that really resonates with your ideal clients. So it's like, yeah, that's exactly what I want to buy as kind of what they're thinking, but also ensures that you're using leverage. You're not just trading time for dollars. Uh, and that when you do deliver whatever it is that you are delivering, it's going to be highly profitable for you. Um, so that's the third part. The fourth part, uh, is really what we call the marketing engine. Uh, and this is about putting a system in place for your marketing so that you can consistently generate leads and opportunities. Um, and there's three components of a marketing engine. Uh, the first is outreach, which can be done in many different ways, but it essentially says, okay, Joseph, you're my ideal client. I know, you know where to find you. I know what you're thinking about, uh, that doesn't necessarily happen right away, but working through a process, it becomes very clear. Uh, and so I can not reach out to you. Right? I can do that through LinkedIn. I can do that through an email. I can pick up the phone. I can do it through many different ways, but essentially I can say, Hey, Joseph, You know, I exist. Um, and I'm going from, you know, not even being on your radar to now getting on your radar, right. I go from being invisible to becoming visible. So that's number one, uh, of the marketing engine. The second part of this overall is then follow up. Uh, right. So just reaching out to you once, or, or even twice, isn't really gonna move the needle. Right? There's lots of studies that show it can take between seven to 12 different touches or interactions. Yeah. This is where the vast majority of people fall down in their marketing is they stopped following up. So it's really critical that you follow up and then you do it in a way that is not salesy. It's not promotional that you're really focused on value. And this is, you know, one maybe slight distinction, although it's not different, but a lot of people try and use typical kind of internet marketing tactics, and approaches to win. Consulting clients, but consulting clients and consulting engagements are different than selling a neck tie or selling, you know, a deodorant stick. Uh, it's not a transaction it's based on a relationship and truly adding value. And so your outreach, your follow-up needs to really be focused on how you can deliver a lot of value to your ideal clients. Uh, and then strengthen that relationship over time so that the person that you're reaching out to who is your ideal client really starts to trust you. She feels that you're an authority and expert in your area and therefore, uh, as they have that problem or that problem becomes more and more painful for them, where that desire becomes stronger, they see you as the number one person that they want to engage with. And the third part of this, of the marketing engine is content, right? So developing content, because that's really the best way aside from you actually doing the work or receiving a referral to demonstrate your expertise to an ideal client. Right. I can tell you, Hey, Joseph, I'm really good at X, but it's much better if I can just show you a video or, uh, send over a white paper or a book or something else that. I'm able to demonstrate my expertise through that piece of content, because that content will then, you know, convince you rather than me trying to convince you myself. And then the key thing is you work all those three things together, the outreach, the followup, uh, and the content together. Uh, when you do that consistently, it's like a virtuous cycle that really helps you to generate leads consistently. So there's a lot of additional pieces that we could layer on and to start getting more advanced about, you know, pricing strategies and how to build authority, but those are kind of the four key pillars that people want to work through to build a successful consulting business. 

Joseph: [00:21:33] And a pretty common recommendation that I make for listeners is to always treat our episodes here as a way to be introduced into these concepts. Um, you provide plenty of this content as we talk about. And so they can spend hours and hours and hours going through it and take it, their teeth into it. Um, a couple of points that had been, uh, raised as you were, as you were talking. Well, one of them, I do want to get some clarity on what exactly it is to deliver, uh, to a client. I mean, I guess, I suppose for me, would just be to deliver. Uh, improvements. Like if they S they see an increase in revenue. Um, but I feel like given that there is a lot of variance to the working relationship between the client and the consultant is I do want to hear exactly what a deliver would mean. 

Michael Zirpursky: [00:22:18] A deliverable or a delivery can be many different things. It can be, it can simply be advice. Uh, it can be a report with strategic recommendations. It can be a roadmap on how to take those. High-level kind of recommendations that you've. Captured through interviews or analysis or surveys or whatever it might be. And then turning that into a roadmap that the client can go and implement themselves. It can be working with the client to oversee that implementation and ensure that it's implemented successfully. It can be ongoing coaching and supports and, you know, uh, advisory to ensure that as they are implementing that, there's always mean new things popping up. And so you're there to provide peace of mind. Um, you know, what a lot of consulting, uh, or consultants do, it's not so much about just the deliverable, right? Oftentimes people think like, oh yeah, the report, the slide deck, you know, the tangible material, that's the value, but that's actually not the value at all. The value to clients is that you're able to give them a lot more clarity on, you know, what the next steps should be. And then as they take those steps that they know that you're there, you know, so they're, they're really gaining a lot more confidence because they could have taken those steps themselves before, but they. Number one, maybe he didn't even know those steps existed, right. Or a specific step. So now you're not giving them clarity on what to do. You're also giving them confidence to take that action. And then the real value also happens as, as you continue working with them. Right. Other challenges, other questions and things come up. And so your value as a consultant is that you've likely been there and done that before. Uh, it's not new to you. Whereas if the client was trying to do all by themselves, they likely would stumble and fall, not nowhere to do get lost, but you're really there to say, Hey, here's the roadmap. Here's what we're going to do based on these things. Okay. Yeah. Don't worry if that pops up, you know, here's how we need to correct it, course correct it. And then move forward. So you're really like the shepherd. You're the guide. To help your client go from where they are to wherever that future desired state is and to do it in the most efficient and effective way possible with, you know, with the fewest numbers of, of bumps and bruises along the way.

Joseph: [00:24:15] No, this might be the first time that it's occurred to me, how important that kind of peace of mind is for the client when they know that they can turn to a consultant and rely on their body of knowledge in order to improve their own workload. Because it's not just about the decision it's about the energy that goes into making that decision and the anxiety that he goes into it. I can picture a scenario sent over a where somebody's going to make the right call, but they haven't had anybody to validate that. And there's a lot more anxiety to it and they might not follow through in the same way. Scenario B. Exact same decision, but they've talked to somebody, uh, who validates their idea and can support them, says, yeah, yeah, actually you actually, you actually nailed this one, so go for it. And the difference between the outcomes would actually be substantial, even if it's the exact same decision. 

Michael Zirpursky: [00:25:01] Yeah. I think the one, uh, addition I'd have there is that when you're investing into working with a consultant, a coach or whoever, it might be an advisor, uh, yeah. You have skin in the game, right. You made, you made that investment. So now you're much more likely to actually take the action because you might lose something. Right. You might lose that investment that you made. So, uh, that's another reason that helps people to actually move forward. It's because they now have something invested, whereas before they didn't.

So out of the three parts of the marketing engine, the one part of it that I wanted to follow up on briefly was, um, actually it was indeed in the following up. So if I'm going to have to contact somebody six times, seven times, I can see in my own mind, starting to feel somewhat reluctant about it. Like, um, Kind of giving them a hug. Maybe I'm being a little bit too much of a squeaky wheel. Maybe they're ignoring me on purpose, whatever the case is. Um, can you make any mindset recommendations or like what confidence a a consultant has to have in order to reach out to these projects, prospective clients, uh, time and time again, before they can move on to the next step.

So, Joseph, do you care about the person you're reaching out to. 

Joseph: [00:26:07] I see, I see your point. 

Michael Zirpursky: [00:26:09] I mean, do you, do you want the best result for them? Do you, do you want them to potentially choose a less qualified consultant or, or advisor someone who doesn't have the same level of skills or experience that you have? Like these are the kinds of things like, so to think about follow the mindset shift is, and this is a very common one. So you're raising a really important point, right? A lot of people look at marketing sales and follow up as a big part of that as quote unquote, sales of a, you know, the used car sales person being there to push and persuade. Um, and cajole and, you know, to try and get people to do what they don't want to do in the, you become a bit of a, a nudge or, you know, you become someone that people don't want to keep hearing from. Well, the reality is if you're only talking about yourself, then of course, people won't, won't want to hear from you. And if you're only being sales-y or promotional in your messaging, then of course they will want to hear from you. But if you're focused on them and you're providing them with valuable information, valuable, valuable materials, insights, ideas, uh, things that can really benefit them. Then you're providing a great, you know, a great service just because somebody doesn't respond to you doesn't mean they're not interested in what you have to offer. It just might be that right now, they have something on their minds that is a higher priority. Uh, but I can't tell you the number of times that I've had clients that I've consulted with over the years who have said, Michael, thank you so much for following up, because I really need someone like you or your company, you know, around us. Because like, we need someone to light that fire and we're, we're so busy, we're overwhelmed with all these different things that I'm really glad that you kept following up. That's typically what people say. Now I can also give you examples of people who have been, for example, on our email list for three years have never bought anything. And then all of a sudden one day sign up and become a, you know, a six figure client. We had one client recently who literally has been with us almost from day one. Uh, he told me after, like we had our on a call together, is it? Yeah. I've actually been following what you guys have been doing@consultingsuccess.com since, uh, like for 10 years, I like 10 years and you know, some people might hear that and go like, wow, you guys aren't really good at your follow-up or marketing. Why does it take you 10 years to turn someone into a client? But when I heard that I was actually really happy. What it said to me is. Like if we would have, we had so many opportunities to stop following up or to stop kind of putting valuable stuff in front of this person that we could have just stopped at any time, but we didn't. And the fact is that we were there for that person when they were ready and now they've become a great long-term client. So, you know, if you view followup as the, you might be bothering people, you're not going to want to do it, but if you view it that you truly care about them, you want the best result for them. Then you have a responsibility. You really have a responsibility to be there for them. Now, if they say, stop contact me, then you do right. That's not a problem. But if someone doesn't, don't, don't make the assumption that they're not interested in what you have to offer or that you can't help them. Because if you keep staying top of mind, then at some point they likely will need you. And they'll be very glad that you're there for them. And you'll be really top of mind because most people won't continue to the follow-up that you're doing.

Joseph: [00:28:54] Well. That is as good as an answer to that question, as I can imagine. And, and from, you know, as a, as an absorbing the information, it. For me, it's not even stopping at consulting. It's also, uh, something that would, um, make its way into other prospective business arrangements as well. If you really care about the well being of others, you will continue to work on that until they're ready to reach out to you in return. So, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. All right. So I got one more question for our drop shipping crowd. Um, And one of the core aspects to drop shipping is the ability to scale their business. The ability to 10 or 20 X, the return on the energy expenditure, um, is essential to the appeal of the business. But this is also why a lot of the guests that I've talked to in that space, they they'll do coaching, which I know isn't exactly consulting, but it's uh, a dialogue relationship. Um, they tend to shy away from it because although it pays it's, the one-on-one aspect means that they aren't scaling the same way they're used to based on their energy expenditure. Um, so from my own experience, working with clients, what I would say, and again, this is prior to my, uh, to my work here and with the beautify, I'm not actively seeking right now, but the equivalent in scaling is to work with clients that have higher profiles. So it's still a one-to-one relationship, but, well, they pay more and they are more responsible to the economy because they have more of an impact. Um, so yeah, I think I was close, but what would you say is the consultant's equivalent of scaling in this way? 

Michael Zirpursky: [00:30:19] I mean, well, you've hit on one, right? Which is client selection, right? Becoming very clear about who you truly want as an ideal client and recognize that not all clients are equal. Uh, one client might invest $50,000. Another one is investing $500. So, you know, there's, there's a difference. Uh, and certainly choosing higher value clients is one way to, to grow or to scale, but there's many others, right? You can switch to an arrangement where you get paid, for example, a base fee per month. Uh, and then you have a percentage of the improvement that you capture as you work with that client. That's a great way to scale another is that you take equity in a business. You have to be careful with that, but there are ways for the right types of relationships where having equity in a company that you work with and support and advise can become very profitable for you longterm. Uh, the other would be looking at how you can productize. Your consulting services or just your services in general, right. And turn something that would be typically done kind of one-to-one and make it available. So it becomes one to many. Uh, another, even with the coaching example that you mentioned would be rather than doing just one-to-one coaching, you start to look at ways to provide more of a group component, or you bring other coaches into your, into your business so you're not doing all the coaching yourself. Um, I mean, again, this is why I love consulting so much is because there's so many different ways to approach it. There is no, you know, you see online these days, a lot of people say like, Oh, this is the best model. This is the, you know, this is like, they say the best of what all of these things, there is no best, right? Because it depends on what is your specific situation? What do you want? Some people want to build a team and, uh, and scale that way. Other people want to be a one. You know, person, uh, shop and, uh, and stay that way. So it really depends on what your goals are. For some people having a business that generates half a million dollars a year at a very high profit level is fantastic for others. They want to generate two, three, four, $5 million. Um, and they're prepared to do what's required to get there. So. uh, what's important. I think first of all, Joseph, is that people get very clear about what they really want. What's meaningful for them. What kind of lifestyle do they want? And then once you've had that, or, or you gotten clear on that, you can then work backwards and figure, okay, well, what is the right business model to support that? And I'm willing to make the sacrifices required and then figuring out the most efficient and again, effective path to get you there. 

Joseph: [00:32:27] Um, so my next question is, uh, is about the work itself. And, and again, a lot of these are chambered in advance. So, uh, we might have already touched on this, but I'm just going to run it past you anyways, just in case when, when a client is, uh, is working in, um, In this hypothetical I'm using, I'm considering you being the consultant directly. And I also recognize that we established early on that a lot of the changes on a, on a case by case basis. But so if maybe there's a generality to this, do clients provide you with data for you to analyze, or do you do research on your own or like, what is the general generality of. Uh, who gets the data and who, who provides it to who?

Michael Zirpursky: [00:33:04] Yeah, I mean, so it can depend, right? And the data can come in many different forms, uh, from having, you know, an interview or a conversation with, with someone in a management position or a leader or an executive, uh, to, to doing surveys. Sometimes clients will already have data ready. Other times they won't even know what data is valuable and it's just sitting inside the business. So most often what the consultant is doing is determining, you know, I'm getting clarity about what is the goal of the client has what's really meaningful for them. What does success look like? And then working backwards to compare that to where the client is today and then figuring out, okay, well, what do we need to do to get from where we are to where, you know, we want to be, uh, and most often that's gonna require capturing some data or some information, again, that come in many different forms. Uh, so the consultant will, in most cases, guide. The client as to, or at least suggest what kind of information is required to make better decisions, because just making a decision right. Without looking at, uh, the data, or just getting clear about what's really happening with inside the business typically leads to really bad outcomes, which is why most consultants will have some kind of an assessment and audit a diagnostic or other way of capturing, uh, intelligence and information at the start of an engagement, because it really sets you up for making better decisions going forward, because you've identified the strengths, the weaknesses, the opportunities, you know, all that other stuff. Um, and so, yeah, that's a really important starting point for almost any consulting engagement. Now is this audit, is this them. Is, is there, are they using software for this or are they just asking questions to the client and maybe the agency that they work with? Again, this will, this will depend, right? So some people will use a very specific software or tool. Others will create their own diagnostic or template or assessment. Um, some will use surveys, some will just ask questions in a conversation. We've seen everything from just having a few, you know, kind of questions or, uh, like a checklist, uh, created to very complex, what looks complex, kind of diagnostics, where the client, multiple clients in one organization will answer a bunch of questions. That's then compared to different benchmarks that then gives you some opportunities to see what they can be doing different, which then leads to a roadmap and kind of a bit of a planning session. Uh, so it really depends on this situation, the client, what the goals are, because that's the value, right? Is that you're, you're not just taking a cookie cutter approach. You're really figuring out what is the best way to serve a specific type of ideal client. And even if you're productizing your offerings, the goal with productization, and typically where it works best is when you've gotten very clear about who your ideal client is. You're not just trying to create one solution for every person. You're, you've created a very specific solution for a very specific type of person.

Joseph: [00:35:50] One of the concepts that we had, um, we had brought up as we were setting this interview up was the idea of selling more by selling less, uh, which I sense is along the same lines as like quality over quantity. But, um, can you elaborate on this concept for our listeners? Y

eah, definitely. 

Michael Zirpursky: [00:36:07] I mean, so this really comes down to, oftentimes people think that, and it's not so much about selling, uh, you know, less, or it's not about selling. It's just, if you want to grow, right, if you want to achieve, uh, more progress, more results, more, more momentum. Typically growth comes from such a subtraction, not just from addition and what you see a lot of people doing in all different spaces. Uh, is that they try and throw a lot more things onto the fire without even first of all, getting clear on like what will burn and what won't. Right. Uh, and so, uh, if you want to grow, what you want to do is you want to start identifying like the 80 20 of, of your business or of your operations. There's gonna be certain things that are going to have a much greater output. And impact than others. And so you don't wanna just want to take all the latest trends and tactics and, you know, social media, this or whatever. Like it's, it's about getting very clear, like what really is going to move the needle. What's really going to create the greatest results, looking at what you're currently doing, getting clear about what is working, what isn't working do more of what's working less of what isn't working. Um, and that's why, again, if you look at the most successful businesses in the world, typically they don't achieve their success just by starting off, especially at the beginning by just trying to accomplish like a lot, right. In terms of like trying to have tons of different service offerings or tons of different products or products with tons of different features, they start off with like a very defined they've subtracted. So whether it's like, you know, the, um, the iPod or, you know, whatever it might be, it's like, you can you look at these new offerings. And they're very defined for a very specific type of person. Uh, and that's how they scale. That's how they start growing. And as they gain more traction, it gives them more resources and more opportunities to expand. But if you really want to achieve greater growth, first focus on, you know, what has the biggest impact and look at what you can remove all those inefficiencies. And by doing that by doing even, you know, spending less time overall, but more time on the right things, you'll typically see a much greater result. 

Joseph: [00:37:55] And one philosophy that I think is important to keep in mind too, is that it is better to be small before you be big. Because when you're small, you can iron out these mistakes. You can catch these things, you can figure out more of the operations so that when you do yeah, any issue that comes with you will also be amplified as well. 

Michael Zirpursky: [00:38:12] Yeah, another way to say that Joseph is the complexity doesn't scale, right? So if you're carrying all this, all this baggage and you have all these things that aren't really that efficient in the business, and you've done try and grow, you're just creating a lot of waste, right. Which is why when there's acquisitions or, um, you know, big investments made into companies. One of the first things that savvy people do even before they even made the acquisition is they look at, uh, you know, where's the real profit or the real, uh, opportunities coming from, and then anything that's not producing, they just cut. Right? And then instantly you just start seeing much better results because now you can dedicate and focus our resources on the things that are truly creating the greatest value and, uh, for e-commerce businesses, dropshippers, whatever, like this will, this, the nature of 80 20 will likely hold true that. You know, roughly 80% of your revenue or profits are going to be coming from 20% of, of your products that you're putting out there. And if let's say you have 10 different products, but two of them are contributing to the vast majority of your resources. Well, why do you even have those other ones? And instead, would you be better served by just focusing on, let's say the two that are actually creating the best results for you. Maybe you create different colors, you create different, you know, feature ad-ons to those, or you develop those products more. But that's the kind of thinking that I would encourage people to, uh, to start to embrace. 

Joseph: [00:39:23] Hmm. Um, so Michael, we also wanted to talk about, um, winning over more proposals. Um, but first I'd like to get our audience to understand, uh, what our proposal is in this context. Uh, I think we can all kind of like guesstimated, even as we hear the word proposal, but, uh, so yeah. So what does a proposal in this context and then how do we go about winning them? 

Michael Zirpursky: [00:39:42] The purpose of the proposal is really just to formalize the agreement between you and the client. And this is one of the big mistakes if you will make is, they have a fairly surface level conversation with a buyer and then they will go, okay, yeah. This person said to send me a proposal, they get all excited. They can try and, you know, work all of these new ideas into proposal and send it over to the client. And the client looks kind of at it and thinks to themselves. Okay. Yeah. There's a lot of stuff here. I need some time to process this and then it just gets pushed off. And you know, now the consultant's thinking, well, what did I do wrong? And, you know, are they not interested? And it's simply the fact that, you know, you had things reversed. Uh, you want to focus you no beyond the surface level, in your conversation before you even create a proposal to really truly understand what is the pain point for the client, uh, you know, what is the opportunity? What do they value? And then to go deep into that conversation so that you're on the same page so that you and the client have a really defined together and collaborated on what the next steps are going to be and what the value is in solving those problems or reaching that destination. Once you've done that, then you're in a much better place to create a proposal. But even before you start creating the proposal, you really want to ask the client questions along the lines of, you know, like how much of a priority is this for you to begin? How soon do you want to get started? Is there anything that you feel that might hold you back from moving forward with this? So these are questions again that people typically don't ask because they think like, Oh, that's uncomfortable. I don't want to go into those details. I don't want to ask about revenue. Don't ask about valuable. Why leave it, if you leave it, you're not going to typically be very successful with your proposals. But if you ask those questions upfront, you're going to be able to work through them with that prospective client before you even spend any time on a proposal, which will then lead to significantly higher rates of proposals. In terms of the proposal itself, you know, it's like we have a template in our momentum program that we offer to clients. We have lots of actually articles on the website as well for free that kind of go into what are the ingredients of a successful proposal. But the most important one is that you're not really trying to communicate new information in your proposal. If you do right then the client's going to need to take time to, to process that, uh, your proposal should not make the client think the proposal should really confirm for them that you are the right person in your company is the right. Company to help them to get the result they wanted to solve that problem that they have. And it should also focus on the value. So you want to reiterate what is the value and why are you best suited to, you know, to solve this problem for them? You all, you want to also give them a very clear sense of, you know, what is a potential return on their investment? Like, how is this going to be a good return for them in order, uh, for them to move forward with you. And so you're just stacking the value and the reason for them to move forward, but you're not introducing a whole bunch of new information other than maybe your, your pricing and, you know, an options that you might provide within that. Um, and one of their best practice here for proposals since we're on the topic is that you should never send a proposal to a client. Uh, you know, days or, or weeks in advance and just hope for them to get back to you, right? That's a really big mistake that people make. What you should be doing is really reviewing the proposal with the client together. If you can't do it in person, do it on a zoom call, right? Jump on a zoom call and re review the proposal. You can send it like half an hour or an hour or whatever, uh, you know, before, but the, the, you should not allow your prospective client just go through the proposal themselves and trying to interpret it in themselves because. Most likely they're going to have questions. Most likely there'll be something in there that they don't get a hundred percent. And if you're not there to answer those questions or to have a conversation with them, then there might be an objection they have, and they might now already make up their mind about why they're not going to move forward because they see something in there that doesn't really connect with them. But if you're on the call with them, if you're able to go through it line by line or section by section. As that potential objection comes up. You're right. They're able to deal with it. Therefore you're able to resolve it so that you can move forward or make adjustments on the fly. Um, so those are a few best practices there for, for people that can really make a big difference. 

Joseph: [00:43:26] Yeah. And it also speaks to a sales technique as well. The difference between them just looking at the proposal on their own and starting to draw their own conclusions, uh, versus having you there as a guide so that they can understand the thought process and what's, and what's going into it. The, um, so for that, the, the F the F the third act of this, of this interview, I do want to get into, uh, some of the more like the person to person aside of, uh, of dealing with. I was just like dealing with them. And they're not, they're not a burden, but in working with clients. So this is one that has been kind of, uh, nodding away at me. And I'm not sure this is even really quite a fair question to ask, but I'm just going to throw it out there anyways. But, um, what are you doing or what are you encouraging your students to do to assess what makes a good client, uh, because they could be running a company, uh, you can be invested in their wellbeing, but the, there might have to be a certain personality complex that they need to have in order to be receptive to the information into your guidance, because you are imparting a lot of your ideas and a lot of your, uh, experience into their business and you never know how invested or they can be in it. So yeah. What would make for a good client? 

Michael Zirpursky: [00:44:35] Well, so you mean what makes for a good client just to clarify your question or is it, what can people do to ensure that they're, you know, attracting the right type of client.

Joseph: [00:44:43] You know, I, I, I feel like option B is probably a better one, but if there's any substance to, uh, option a, then we can go for that too. 

Michael Zirpursky: [00:44:50] Yeah. So the first thing is, uh, in your marketing, right before you even talk to a prospective client, you can use your marketing as a way to, uh, to really push away or to polarize, right? You, you can, uh, communicate ideas and beliefs and approaches that really will push away the wrong people. But we'll help you to attract the right people. And so this is why for, you know, like the most successful marketing typically does polarize. And if you look at the most successful celebrities, they also polarized, or they're not for everybody, they typically stand all that. They're very clear with their opinions and that's because they know who they want to attract. Uh, if you try and speak to everybody, you speak to no one. So even use your marketing to really start to attract the right kinds of people. Then that's the first part. The second part then is when you're actually having that initial conversation with them. Uh, and you can ask them all kinds of questions. Uh, we, we call it, you know, having like a meaningful consulting sales conversation, and it really helps you to identify all the different elements or pieces of information that you're going to need to define and decide whether or not there's somebody that you can help and whether you want to help. And when you ask those questions, you're going to get very clear. You'll have that, that sense inside of you. Like you're going to know in your gut, whether or not this person is the kind of person or the kind of company that you want to, to support. And typically your gut is right. So if you get a sense, like, yeah, This person doesn't, you know, they think they know it all. They're not open to new ideas. They're not that receptive everything I'm asking them. They're like, they're not really being open with me. Then that's a pretty good indication that that's, you know, that's not going to be a great client for you, even if they're willing to, to sign up and pay you most likely. They're not going to take the advice that you have. And there'll be a, you know, a pain in the backside to work with. And so, uh, you then want to use that as an, as a kind of indication not to move forward with them. However, the flip side of that is you ask them really great questions. You go deep in the conversation and you just get a sense, like, yeah, this person really wants it. They're hungry for it. They're, they're open to new ideas. I really like their vision. I like what they've been doing. I like the, you know, I feel like I like them as a person. What's a great indication to start working with them. And then really where rubber meets the road is when you do start working with them and you'll see, and it's like, anything in life, you're going to pick up some clients that are not ideal that you just learn, you know, maybe you have that, that kind of gut instinct and you didn't really listen to it. And now you're working with them and you feel like, yeah, I'm just not really enjoying this. And yes, they're paying, but it's not the kind of work that I really want to do, or I just feel like they're, they, they need too much handholding or whatever it might be right there, there was a lot of different criteria that you'd want to look at in terms of profitability or enjoyment, fulfillment, so forth. Um, but it's not uncommon to quote unquote fire, you know, your least profitable or least. Fulfilled or at least kind of, you know, where enjoyment is coming from clients. Uh, that's natural in every business. There's going to be some, some attrition. Uh, so don't worry about that. Don't use that as, as a reason to stop marketing or stop building your business. Just get very clear that what you want to focus on doing more and more is identify the criteria and the types of people that you like. And as you move forward, Joseph, and you're building your business, you'll start seeing like common traits and similarities between different types of clients and you'll know like, yeah, these people, I noticed that they also use these words or they've all had this experience. They're all in this space and that'll help you then to really firm up and to get a kind of clear and more focused around who you want to attract more of and who you want to, to have less in your business in life. 

Joseph: [00:48:04] That's a key point too, because you mentioned how celebrities they they're having, they have their outsized personas. And that does turn out the, the fans, uh, to the people who aren't going to be fans of them. You've given me a deeper understanding of Kanye I'll, uh, and I'll leave it at that. So one of the things I'm wondering about is. Because, especially in, in Europe, in your experience, you've dealt with a lot of a high profile clients. And I'm wondering about the pressure level that you're under. I expect that there is pressure involved in working with high-profile clients, such as the ones that you listed. So how do you address it and if possible, how do you mitigate it? 

Michael Zirpursky: [00:48:39] You know, I think, uh, working or the pressure that comes from work with high-profile clients is no different than the pressure.

I've working with less high-profile clients, right? It comes down to your experience. And so the first time that you work with any company, you're going to feel some pressure because you're venturing into a known water, right. And you're doing something that is different, but that's also a sign that you're challenging yourself.

That's also a sign that you're growing. And you do it once the next time you do it, it's going to be a little bit easier. It'd be a little bit more comfortable. This is really just, you know, I think a fact of life or an experience of life that, uh, anytime you do something new or different, you're going to feel uneasy about it, about it.

There'll be some fear around it, but that's completely natural and you do it. You learn from it. Maybe you fall on your face. Will you get back up? You try it again. Now you, uh, you get better next time around. And so this is what entrepreneurship is. If someone is not. I'm willing to kind of get knocked down from time to time or to feel uneasy, or to feel a bit of fear or to feel, you know, a bit of anxiety.

Um, then you're probably not cut out to be an entrepreneur, and there's nothing wrong with that because not everybody should be an entrepreneur, but if you understand, that's part of. Kind of the territory that in order to create that, that kind of lifestyle and to have the benefits that come from entrepreneurship, uh, and creating kind of, you know, what you, what you are truly in control of, uh, then, then the benefits are, are there for you, but it's a natural part of it. There's no way around it. It doesn't matter how successful you are, whether you're making a a hundred thousand a year, whether you're making a million a year, 10 million a year, a hundred million a year, talk to billionaires, they still have troubles. They still have challenges that they're dealing with. They're just different. 

Joseph: [00:50:14] That drew a parallel in my own mind, the difference between the independent career pursuit that has made up the last 10 years of my life versus, you know, when I would work as a grocery boy, I'm, I'm mostly just receiving orders as a grocery boy. There definitely wasn't any pressure and yeah. You know, you start to check out from that kind of work. Um, And by the way, you know, when I get to my retirement, I'd probably go back and do grocery work again, just to stay active. But the difference between that and versus doing something it's about doing something important, it's that feeling of this actually matters and that there is tangible way to, to, to my actions and that if I don't, if I don't fulfill them, then yes, there will be consequences to it.

Michael Zirpursky: [00:50:53] Yeah. 

Joseph: [00:50:53] Whenever you're a YouTube videos, talks about the vulnerability. And I find that refreshing to see, because I guess my misconception is that, you know, consultants would want to, and not just consultants, but. Uh, a lot of, uh, businesses, uh, relying heavily on, uh, interaction, uh, would want to project an air of authority. So there seems to be a balance here as what can we do to be vulnerable in a way that's productive and healthy and helpful to our business.

Michael Zirpursky: [00:51:19] Yeah. So I think vulnerability is really important and not only from a business perspective, But also, uh, is really important from just, you know, a, a life perspective. And I've I, what I shared in that video on YouTube, uh, Joseph, is that, you know, when I was first getting started in the world of consulting, uh, I thought it was totally wrong to try and share any vulnerability. Right. And it makes sense. You know, I was in my early twenties and I was at that time, you know, consulting with some very large organizations. Um, so, you know, I felt that imposter syndrome, I had a lot of just challenges around that and I thought, yeah, in order for me to, you know, to be trusted and liked and for fuel to, to hire us, like, w you know, I need to show that I'm a professional. Um, but at the end of the day, we're all people and, you know, people, uh, buyers don't hire you because of your brand name, unless you're a McKinsey or an Accenture or, or whatever, they don't hire you because you have a nice logo. Uh, or, or a nice website for that matter, they hire you because they feel they, they like you, they trust you. They believe that you can help them to solve a problem. And that comes from you being a person. And, you know, if you think about go back in time, w what people gravitate towards most is stories. Uh, and so when you are open, you share your story. When you share with people, you know what it is that you've gone through, and that you're not perfect because the reality is none of us are perfect. We all have our insecurities. We've all faced challenges. Uh, you know, a lot of people aren't open about them, but what's interesting is the moment that you do open up and you share a challenge that you've had, or an insecurity that you faced or whatever it might be. There's gonna be a group of people that latch onto that. Cause they think of themselves like, wow, that person's really successful, or I see them as being successful, but they're also dealing with that issue. Like that's interesting because I'm dealing with that issue. And so now you've created a bond right now. You're different from all the other high level. Kind of, um, you know, noise in the marketplace and, and all this authority and professionalism, which has nothing. There's nothing wrong with that. You still want to be an authority, right? You still want to build your brand. You still want to be professional, but, uh, you shouldn't push away those, those things that you encounter, because the more that you share of what you're actually going through or have gone through, the more that people will actually feel like they know you like you and trust you, and that's how you build brand. That's how you build a following. That's how you build a community is that you're actually open with people. And the more open you are. The more that you'll actually find that they're, that they're attracted to you. And so not only will that be better for you because you'll feel better. Cause you can just be yourself. You'll also find that there you'll get great business benefits from that because you'll have a stronger following, uh, and a more loyal following. Uh, and I've seen that not only in our business since we've started to really embrace that concept, but, um, you know, from every person that I've talked to, we run a podcast called the consulting success podcast and then lots of episodes and. You know, every person that I've talked to you about, uh, about that who's been vulnerable and been open in some cases it's, you know, vulnerability or experiences with drugs or potential suicides or, um, children passing away, like all kinds of crazy things that you would typically think a professional would never share. But the moment that they started to share that with their community or those who they want to serve, uh, it's, it's been not only freeing for them as a person, but it's also come with some really great business benefits. 

Joseph: [00:54:27] Uh, well, that's, uh, that's a great answer to the question and that's definitely something that I. Meet me I'm my, my problem was Ashika more opposite. Sometimes I feel like I was being like over vulnerable. And so I had to learn to like, not to, not to get into TMI territory basically, but especially in the time that we're in right now is that we really do need to connect with people in any way, shape or form that we can find, uh, was one of the reasons why even as, even though this is an audio show, is I say, you know, well, let's, let's turn the video on so that I, you know, four hours out of my week, I can meet new people, see new faces and meet new human beings. And it's a beautiful thing. So I, you know, I thank you for, um, for answering that. Um, but that is all the time that we've got. So we're going to, we're going to let you go, but I got one more. It's our closeout wrap-up question is how people can reach out to, and if you have any parting words of wisdom, feel free to share them with us. Not that you haven't shared plenty already. 

Michael Zirpursky: [00:55:17] Yeah, no, my pleasure. I mean, I think that one of the biggest kind of beliefs that I have, or. Uh, phrases that, that I go to, or that I share with clients is imperfect action. Uh, I believe that, uh, most people have great potential inside of them. And far too often, they are held back because they want things to be just perfect before they get them out there to the world. But what I've seen over the last two decades, Uh, in business and in working with many different people, is that the way that you actually achieve more is by putting more out there because that's, you know, coming back to your question around data, when you take a chance, when you put something out there, you'll, you'll get some data, you'll learn whether what you thought works or didn't work, and then you just make adjustments to it. So there's no real, such thing as failure, as long as you keep trying. And then you learn from that. So, uh, just the phrase, perfect action is I think a really important one for people to embrace, uh, and whatever they're working on, whatever they're kind of thinking about, uh, don't wait, get it out there, you know, and, and see how it works and then make adjustments and course correct and keep going. And I think when you do that, uh, you'll actually start to make significantly more progress than you potentially have before. If you haven't, uh, haven't done that. And in terms of, if you want to connect. Um, more than welcome I'm on LinkedIn, fairly active there. So Michael's the first skew there. Uh, of course our website is consulting success.com. Uh, and for anyone who is thinking about getting into consulting or has been a consultant for some time and is looking for some best practices, we've put together some of the most popular articles and strategies and insights that we've. I kind of had over the years of being in the consulting space, uh, into a consulting blueprint, it's a 47 page guide. And you're welcome to get that for free by going to consulting success.com forward slash blueprint. 

Joseph: [00:57:05] Excellent. Well, everybody, um, I hope you all will listen to this episode again, and this time with a notepad. Uh, there was lots and lots of, lots of great information here. So Michael is a breastfeed. Thank you so much.

Uh, you said you wanted to bring value and you, uh, you, you pass that with flying colors, I would say 

Michael Zirpursky: [00:57:22] Thanks, Joseph it's great to be with you 

Joseph: [00:57:24] Ad thanks you as well. All right, everybody we'll check in with you soon. 

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