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Robert Rubeko - Wordpress Expertise And Distinguishing Your Content With Memorable Branding

icon-calendar 2021-03-05 | icon-microphone 59m 50s Listening Time | icon-user Debutify CORP

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Robert Rubeko of punch salad gives us a window into some elements of the ecommerce space we’re glad to finally shed some light on. Although this is Shopify country, as we say on the program, when we get contesting information, we head right for it. So if you’ve been wondering what wordpress has to offer this’ll be a great primer. The second aspect that sticks out to me about our guest is his unique branding, it’s what puts you as a content creator over the competition, even the smallest consideration into your branding can endear you to the audience far more than you might expect. 

Robert Rubeko is the founder of punchsalad.com & TipsWithPunch YouTube channel, where website owners can find straightforward & entertaining tutorials, insights, and inspiration for running and growing their websites. The tutorials are mostly about WordPress, web analytics, Google Ads, and other useful website-related software.



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Episode 68 — Robert Rubeko (Edited)

Robert Rubeko: [00:00:00] A lot of the people were like, well, I'm building this website. Can you review it? It's not as useful if you're not establish it. And if you don't, I don't mean that your big website is just, if you haven't done enough and immediately asking how, how does it look like? If I say something, will you change it? I think you really just need to start. Learn the basics. And then started asking for reviews.Or look into youtube how the websites should look like. But I think that the most important thing is to start.

Joseph: [00:00:34] You're listening to Ecomonics, a Debutify podcast. Your resource for one of the kind of insights into the world of e-commerce and business in the modern age. This is Joseph. I'll be presenting a wealth of industry knowledge from interviews, with successful business people and our own state-of-the-art research. Your time is valuable so let's go.

Robert Rubeko of punch salad gives us a window into some elements of the e-commerce space. We're glad to finally shed some light on. Although this is Shopify country. As we say on the program, when we get contesting information, we head right for it. So if you've been wondering what WordPress has to offer, this'll be a great primer.

The second aspect that sticks out to me about our guest is his unique branding. It's what puts you as a content creator over the competition. Even the smallest consideration into the way you present your content can endear you to the audience far more than you might expect. 

Robert Rubeko. It is good to have you here.

Welcome to Ecomonics. How are you doing today? How you feeling? 

Robert Rubeko: [00:01:32] I'm good. Thanks. Uh, thanks for having me here. 

Joseph: [00:01:34] Thank you for being here. One thing I, I don't ask this too often. Um, and now chamber it because I just remembered, I have a very important question that I have to ask you first. So it's, it's uh, it's on the tip.

It's on the tip. I'm going to, I'm not gonna lose it. First question. We got to get this one going. Uh, who are you and what do you do?

Robert Rubeko: [00:01:49] Uh, I'm Robert Rubeko and, uh, I work in Amsterdam by day. I'm a conversion rate optimization expert for an e-commerce store that sells beauty products. And by night I am a YouTuber that I help people with their WordPress questions and all kinds of tutorials that, um, That they can take their upside to the next level.

Joseph: [00:02:12] I, I checked out the, uh, the website very briefly. So I definitely want to ask you more about the conversion, but let me, let me not tease out other question for very much longer. So this is one that I could potentially ask every guest and I don't, but we're just going to get it in here. So when you were, uh, reached out to by the company, how was your, what was your, like your initial reaction to us contacting you?

Was it curious? Was it like, Oh, these guys finally. Yeah. I've been waiting to hear from them. 

Robert Rubeko: [00:02:36] Yeah, definitely. Um, so it was an exciting, um, news or contact because I, I rarely do these kind of things. And I think it's a podcast. I listen almost daily to podcasts, so it was definitely something I responded almost immediately.

Um, but we did, I haven't used the software before though. But, I listened to the previous episodes and I think I was impressed by the quality. So I thought, why not? 

Joseph: [00:03:01] Thank you. So, yeah. Wow. You, you listened even as far back as, um, before you booked. I, I appreciate that. I could ask other people that, but I don't know if I want to know the answer.

So I'll just, uh, I'll, I'll just, I'll just take that little piece of candy and I'll just go with it. So conversion rate optimizer. Now you said that you do this for a beauty product website. And that actually makes me wonder, uh, how much time you get to invest in that on a week to week basis. So I think at first let's start with, uh, what exactly it is you're doing as a conversion rate optimizer.

And then what is the week to week, um, hourly commitment to, to doing this?

Robert Rubeko: [00:03:38] Actually, I'll just, I'm my, I work for 40 hours for this, for the company as a CRO, which is the shorter version of it. Um, and, uh, basically my, my main goal is to improve their revenue on the site or user. Also we have, uh, smaller, uh, goals, like for example, sign up for newsletters, but obviously it's always about the revenue and just making sure that the customers have a great journey.

Uh, throughout our site and they find the information, they need to make the decision to buy our product. 

Joseph: [00:04:10] And I guess the thing that, that I cannot help, but wonder is that like, you know, when I, when I talk to say, uh, one guest that pops up to my head, uh, Tyler Jefcoat, um, he, you know, he's got his own agency and I can understand the needs of accounting are  something that's consistent. And I, and I hear that it's consistent here, but I don't fully understand why. So let's what kind of decisions do you make that can stick in the long run versus what kind of decisions do you have to make on a, on a day-to-day basis? 

Robert Rubeko: [00:04:39] You mean as a CRO or? 

Joseph: [00:04:41] Yeah. 

Robert Rubeko: [00:04:41] Um, I think it's all about like, just, um, for long-term you want to plan test ahead.

So the main thing I do actually is I do user research and also plan out. AB tests to test some hypothesis. And that's the main bulk of my work. Um, and yeah, long-term, short-term some tests might be, um, very, short-sighted not short-sighted, but just that we're just trying to improve the conversion on a short period of time, but you need to always keep in mind that you can improve something right now, but down the road, it's not going to be good for the users.

For example, I don't know if there's too many popups on the side. That means people get annoyed. They might sign up for the first time, but then if they visited the side, then every time there's something popping up in their face in a longterm, you might actually lose that client. Then that's not our purpose.

So, uh, there's always a balance between that. Short-term and long-term. 

Joseph: [00:05:38] Right. And I imagine too, that you're also observing I, when I'm about to say trends and I feel like that's not the most respectful term for it because there are a lot of changes and a lot of developments in business and an e-commerce and what's the best way to communicate with the customer.

So in that respect, I also imagine that you're observing a lot of new developments in order to say, improve efficiency or. A new advertising campaign, a new social media platform. So as part of your responsibility to also keep your eyes peeled on what's new and what's going on and what can then be integrated into the website.

Robert Rubeko: [00:06:09] Yeah, no, that that's completely true. Maybe not to the point that, okay. Should we now go to TikTok or is it too early for us? 

Joseph: [00:06:15] But I knew, I actually thought you were gonna say Tiktok. 

Robert Rubeko: [00:06:19] Yeah, like I let the, the, the point is, um, and for some brands that works, but I think, uh, as a CRO, I do have to keep my ears open, sort of say, and I do try to read the industry news all the time.

Not only in specific. To, uh, my, uh, uh, role, but also like SEO and what's going on in the ad space, just because you never know where you get inspired. And also the fact that, like you said, there's so much constantly changes and people behave differently because maybe Amazon brought up a new feature. So now everybody is used to that feature.

So now the question is, should we do something similar? So, um, no, definitely. It's, it's looking at different trends. Um, yeah, I'm not the one that makes the decision if we actually do it, but I can definitely, uh, bring it up to the management. 

Joseph: [00:07:07] Yeah. Like I said, it's more your, your position to, yeah. Like you said, to, to bridge it, to offer it and to show what are, what are the advantages to, to make this decision?

What I also understand we can, no, we can always, uh, we'll reintegrate it, uh, as we go on, but I know there's a lot of other things that you get up to as well. Um, your YouTube channel is a punch salad. What I look at it is that this is a guides, it's just a tutorials. Um, but what, what I, what I love about it is the, uh, is, is the opening for it approach solid.

I just like, it's one of those, it's like, it sticks into the ear. Another example of this, if anybody is into like the. You know, the, the kind of like the gaming neurotech world, there's this one called, um, uh, review tech USA. And it starts with this guy going and every now and then I'll just be like, It's good or bad.

I'm just like brushing my teeth or something like that. And a punch salad. I don't know. It's like, it sticks with me. Um, so, uh, let's start with, uh, the, that side of it. Like where did this, uh, this like brand come from and what do you, um, do you have like a, a 10,000 foot view of what you'd like to do with the brand and the line?

Robert Rubeko: [00:08:09] Uh, actually I, I think I need to work on the brand because the channel name is actually tips with punch, but yeah, there's the punch there. 

Joseph: [00:08:16] Oh my God. Oh, I'm so embarrassed. 

Robert Rubeko: [00:08:19] No, no, no, no worries. That's why this point is solid. Uh, so honestly, and.

Joseph: [00:08:24] That was it. Sorry. 

Robert Rubeko: [00:08:25] Yeah, exactly. No, no worries. And, uh, yeah, the idea that the whole concept for the YouTube channel, why I started this, uh, this was like four years ago where the word, these channels, I don't know if you've seen, uh, any tutorials where when you watch them, they have no sound or maybe like a computer fan behind them.

And then there's just a notepad where they type in like what you need to do. And then many times it doesn't even work or it's just not user-friendly. And I thought, okay, I can't handle these. I want to just make it a very punchy, uh, tutorials with about websites. These things, um, can seem to be very complicated, but they're not there.

If you have somebody guiding you through the steps, it's quite simple, especially with WordPress or Shopify, it is. The developers work so that it's super easy for users to use. So the, the, the sort of idea behind it is definitely to have less of the talking and more just the action. 

Joseph: [00:09:23] Right? So you say that some of these videos, like somebody, like he's recording it and they forget that their microphone is on and they're just recording, like, 

Robert Rubeko: [00:09:32] Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Joseph: [00:09:34] On my, uh, channel, uh, which isn't, uh, related to e-commerce, uh, giant enemy channel. I. Did do that. I didn't breathe into the microphone or anything like that, but every now and then somebody, one of my clients, when I was doing freelance editing, they would ask me, uh, how to do something. And I thought, okay, well, I can either like write out the step-by-step or I'll turn on OBS and I'll just record it, put some music in the background and then that way they can just.

You know, watch it, they see the step by step process themselves. And I, you know, I wasn't like I was expecting it to, uh, to generate revenue or anything like that. It's just to show my clients and then it just so happens to be there publicly in case somebody else is looking for it. Is it good? No, it's, it's, it's, it's not engaging and it doesn't reach a higher audience.

So your, your desire to do that, I'm wondering if you have a, if you have a background in that, or if you've, maybe you've done any, or if you have any artistic leanings or creative leanings or, uh, this is like the first time that, that. Creative side. And you has manifested.

Robert Rubeko: [00:10:29] No, I've tried many things. And, um, to be honest, I always been on YouTube learning stuff.

So I don't know. At one point I was into cartoons, then another point I was into, I dunno, just building websites. I've been not quite long interested in the digital space. Anyway, I've been 10 years in the during my work time, I've been 10 years in the business and I just sold also just like coding and I like to learn new things about it.

So I'm nerdy that way, I guess, for the channel. Yeah. The thing is nowadays the, the standard is so high. Like if you, uh, any topic, if you open up YouTube, there's just so much stuff there that, and it's very high quality. So, um, I would say sometimes my videos are not up to par that. Yeah, up to the par because some people do 4k and with some facts and it's not, so it is getting competitive, but, um, um, yeah, I'm just trying to, uh, do my thing and help people with WordPress, which I know the best.

And it seems to work so far. 

Joseph: [00:11:27] Yeah. I have run into that issue before where I just had at the time I just put together enough, 1080p cameras to shoot. Then I find that I hear rumblings of 4k on the way. And, uh, uh, so one piece of advice that I asked, um, uh, Uzair Kharawala, he'd said that it's a lot of money, so you can always like skip a generation or.

Or something along those lines, or even just like once everybody is on eight K and then you can move up to 4k because then by that point it'd be cheaper. And I thought 1080p was it. I thought 1080p damn good.

Robert Rubeko: [00:11:59] At what point is good to, to scale? 

Joseph: [00:12:01] So for instance, if your 4k is already on its way, so one idea would be just like, Start putting money away and wait until the next format comes out, uh, stick to your guns.

And then once the, that whole way was done and then an alternative, which I don't necessarily think he suggested too. It was like once 8k is out, 4k is going to get a lot cheaper and. And again, like it's, it looks really good. Like 1080p it looks really good. My, my other webcam is a 720p it looks fine.

Robert Rubeko: [00:12:28] I agree completely. So by the pay, people start to expect certain things. So they want that crisp image, even if it's not really necessary, because I don't know if you've seen there's some videos on YouTube from like 11 years ago. I don't know what that was. Seven. So, I mean 2p or maybe the lower. 

Yeah, exactly. They get the job done still, uh, in, in some cases, but yeah, for me, 4k is a bit too early also. Um, I don't think I have enough memory for all of them. 

Joseph: [00:12:54] I think the other thing that I find too is it's also about how people expect. Format, um, the other person I'm going to be interviewing a little later today.

He's a, he's a TikTok expert and by his own ambition, and one of his TikTok videos is that he puts all this work into editing a YouTube video and he doesn't get the same feedback that he gets on his TikTok. TikTok is so quick. And so w but it also, it's trying to condense all that information into a very, very, very short amount of time.

And some things are lost. You, you don't get the same breadth and depth, uh, that you get with YouTube videos, or even just like. No a book, but what it does is it does also condition people. Not just on the quality of it, but also it conditions people on the, on, on the format and the length of it, I guess, TikTok videos.

I mean, unless people are like, have their phones shooting in 4k, the phone quality is all right, right. Like it's not a fantastic, uh, but it's what people are, how people are expecting to get their information. So. No, it's, it'll be interesting to see like how in a couple of generations, how they absorb the information.

If they just get these, like, you know, two second clips that embed in their subconscious, you watch TV with Google glasses or something like that. Right. Or hopefully it gets to like total recall. Mom, I don't know about hopefully, but maybe he gets a total recover. They just embed them. Hey, do you remember that CVI?

I do remember that scene. Yeah. So here's one thing that I thought that I observed from your, um, from your YouTube videos. I wanted to sort it by most popular, cause I thought it would. Shed some light on what are the most prevalent issues that people are facing. So the, your most popular videos are there's embedded YouTube in HTML, uh, install, free SSL certificate.

Uh, how to verify a website on Google search console, create a free website and then a WordPress fix the, uh, sorry, WordPress fix the uploaded file. It's easy upload max file size directive. So a very digestible title, but that's probably exactly what it had to be. Right. People are like typing in that again.

I do that, like when I have to get like, uh, error, Colonel 42 X, D L L. And I can't screenshot it cause it's the blue screen. I'm like, okay, just hold right there. Just to write it down exactly as it is. And I type that exact thing and it right into it. So is there anything that, any takeaways that you've had from like what content of yours has been the most consumed versus the content?

That's more, uh, your median average? 

I think 

Robert Rubeko: [00:15:14] for me, the most successful has been the SSL certificate in general. I have multiple videos just because the tools have changed. Um, I don't know why. I think also YouTube starts to prefer, if you have one good video, then it sees that, you know, in this space you can sort of dominate or at least they push you more.

Um, but also just various kind of topics. And, uh, you already mentioned, for example, the most, uh, washed one was the, where you just take YouTube video and embed it on your side, so that it's responsive. So, uh, by default it doesn't do it. So it's crazy that. These kinds of video, which I didn't think this would do that.

Well, I knew there was some need for it, but I didn't know he would do this well, and you never know which video will rank. And that's, I think the beauty of YouTube, because sometimes you're sure you, you put the hours, you know, it's the best. Well, at least in my opinion, it's the best out of the options, but still not nothing.

And, um, yeah, you just need to try to keep trying and, uh, I think that's, that's how it is. 

Joseph: [00:16:17] So, one thing I'm wondering about too, who is with the embedded YouTube and HTML video is that I don't, I didn't look, but I don't think you were the only person to make that video on the whole space. Do you remember, uh, what year did you put that video out?

Robert Rubeko: [00:16:30] I think it was 2018. 

Joseph: [00:16:33] Yeah. I was thinking that. There had probably been some. There's probably been some content prior to that. And I'm sure there's been content after that. Yeah. So did you pick up any insights as to how your video was able to generate the traffic that it did compare to other people in the space?

Robert Rubeko: [00:16:46] I think it was one of the quickest. So the length of the video helps and also the fact that I show you. Uh, how to make it responsive because other videos just show them how to embed it, but that's pretty easy in more press you just put the link in and it embeds it. But the problem is it doesn't read on mobile.

It looks really horrible. It's like huge, or it just doesn't adapt to your screen size. So that's what I show with very simple instructions, how to get it done. So I think, um, I think it just. People click on it because it's short and to the, to the point, that's the whole topic, or like my idea for my channel also.

Joseph: [00:17:24] Yeah. I mean, as far as like, what happens with videos on the phone? My, for me, uh, phones are like the right size now, but for me, all bets are off. I spent like the first minute or so, just like treating it like a steering wheel. I just trying to like, come on. Yeah.

 I also wanted to get your expertise on the SSL certificate. Um, whenever I encounter a topic that. At least to my recollection, which. You know, it's been, we're like 60 episodes in, so, uh, you all have to bear with me in case somebody else has brought it up, but, um, can you run through us like the basics of SSL and what, uh, I know, I know that you're a WordPress expert and so we definitely can defer to that, but, uh, let's try to keep it general, um, for what we expect out of SSL certificates and how to get our hands on one that kind of like puts our mind at ease as well as the customers.

Robert Rubeko: [00:18:19] Yeah, well, basically in modern times, most come with free SSL. It's the same one it's from let's encrypt but basically a solid just is encrypting your connection with, or your service connection to the user that lands on your page. And it's a Google requirement right now. So you don't have it. You have this really ugly warning that this website is not safe.

And so you really want to have a SSL certificate. There's a couple of levels, but to be honest nowadays, I don't see big differences. There's some, I think with their higher levels, if you pay more, you get some sort of a, if you get hacked, you get some sort of a protection, but, uh, I'm not even sure about that.

Uh, but for most people avoid smaller sites or medium-sized let's encrypt should be more than enough. It looks exactly the same in the browser. You don't see any differences unless you click on the, uh, like the battle log icon in your browser, then you see the difference. Um, but basically there are a few, um, that post a , uh, don't provide this for free.

So that's what I try to teach them how to do it for free. Actually the tool in the video I've created also because the previous tool went and they made it so that you can get three SSL certificates for free. And they last only for 90 days. So you need to renew it every 90 days. So, um, that's, that's the limitation of the free SSL certificate.

There's nothing more I can do or any two other tools can do it because. Authority that that provides this. That's how they've said it.

Joseph: [00:19:52] 90 days. Okay. I know, I can imagine that for people who are, let's just say they're setting up a, a temporary Shopify store or something like that. And they only plan to be in it for awhile.

Okay. That, that, that checks out. Yeah. I mean, I see my dentist every, every six months. So if every three months I just got to like renew this SSL certificate. That's not too bad, but, but I feel like, yeah,

Robert Rubeko: [00:20:12] I mean, it sounds, that's what I felt at first. Like if you have one website that's not so bad, every, you know, quarter, you just updated.

But I think if you have more than that, you start it's, it's a bit annoying that you have to do it. It's uh, maybe 10, 15 minutes. Um, then it gets a bit that you can get a paid certificate for like 10 bucks. Uh, because for example, uh, GoDaddy pro, they sell it for much higher price. So that's why a lot of GoDaddy users come to my videos and they, they get it for free.

Um, but. But actually, if you have more than one website, it gets a bit annoying. I would say you have to remember it. I think it's just takes capacity out of your brain and you need to remember to do it.

Joseph: [00:20:50] Because if they're, if they're set up at different times and then all the, all of a sudden, one of them, Oh, well the 90 days is up on this one.

I thought I just did it. Oh no, wait a minute. That was my other, uh, my other pet collar store. Okay. Yeah. That checks out. Yeah. And by the way, for, for what it's worth, I'm a GoDaddy user. Myself for, I was, I had a WordPress website for the first little while. Um, kind of like a lot to unpack here, but I had hired somebody to, um, make a web comic for me.

Um, and she ended up using this, uh, WordPress theme called, um, aggregate. And the whole thing was a mistake. It ended up costing me like a thousand dollars. And if I looked at how much the theme wasn't theme was like, I don't know, 200 bucks like that. I think, uh, I dunno for some reason I just thought, well, she's a, she's an expert.

She'll just take me through everything. And then I can ask her for help, uh, for, for the rest of my life. And I remember, uh, this is correlation, but I remember I was emailing her some things I needed fixed. And then I w I happened to. Upon her Twitter. And she says, boy, I hate a high pro high maintenance clients.

And I thought, mm, okay. Uh, I mean maybe, but I'm also trying to get my money's worth here. So, um, the point of this by the way is I remember I, because I'll have a phone call with GoDaddy about as often as I see my dentist and they were, they had called me and they had told me that. I was going to have to start paying for the, uh, for the site security.

Otherwise there would be this, uh, big, ugly looking, uh, warning on it saying this, this site isn't secure. And I remember having an issue with that. Cause I remember it wasn't like that before, or maybe it was like that before, but it wasn't a big deal and they're like, well, you know, the internet is just changing and you know, you gotta, you gotta keep up with it.

So I'm, I'm wondering if you've seen any like major shifts in. Uh, insight we'll, we'll start with site security, but then we can get into, uh, some other stuff down the line of like other major shifts that you might've observed. But for now for security purposes, have you seen any major milestones in the development of this and have you also, by any chance had any personal encounters, either like you or somebody who you've talked to.

Let's just say really could have used some security.

Robert Rubeko: [00:22:59] As long as you have SSL certificate that you can also install, uh, while it's not installed, but you can get a CloudFlare to protect you from certain threats so you can install certain things and plugins, maybe more price. But I think security in general, the, the, the biggest.

Uh, from what I understand, the biggest threat right now is like phishing attacks. So it's not that they will, uh, brute force your website and then get it. No, they'll just get somehow you to give them your password in the username. And then they'll just, they have access to everything. So I think, I think that's a bigger threat than actually getting hacked.

Unless you use like a password symbol password, like one, two, three, four, Uh, other than that, if you use a, uh, you know, a good password with many different characters that you should be good, uh, and all these, you can protect yourself with the other, with some software and plugins. Um, but in general, I think it's more of, of the fishing and, uh, all kinds of scams that are, uh, so.

So there's so much of it right now. 

Joseph: [00:24:01] Yeah. You know, I, uh, I have to admit, I didn't actually know what fishing was, um, in this context, but I do know is that every time I get an email for something that's clearly not. A legitimate business offer. I could report it as junk, but I want to send a message to Microsoft saying, I don't want these in my inbox.

So I've actually just been reporting them as fishing anyways, uh, and are probably going to continue to do that because I want them to have other options to say, okay, It's not, it's not, it's worse than junk. Okay. It's clearly not a legitimate offer, so. 

All right. So we're gonna, we're gonna re rewind. Um, what I want to know is what you were up to, uh, before you got into e-commerce.

Cause you've been in this for, you said first for 10 years. And so I'm always curious to know if. Uh, you thought your life had like a different trajectory? Um, like some one example I love bringing up. Cause it was the one that was like the catalyst for this question is that, um, Paul Mottley had said that he was studying chemistry and I asked them, okay, what does this chemistry training come with them?

And he said, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I break things down into their smallest elements and then I, and I built it up. But in e-commerce I thought that's amazing. So I pose that same offer to you. It's in question to you is like, what were you up to before e-commerce ended anything come with you? 

Robert Rubeko: [00:25:12] Wow. That's that was pretty profound of a what he said.

Joseph: [00:25:15] That's why it sticks out. He was like interview seven and I still remember it.

Robert Rubeko: [00:25:19] Yeah, exactly. No, that's like, okay. That's a nice way to put it not, I don't think I have a story like that. And I think I've always been the person who, so, uh, when I graduated college, Well university, is that the same thing college.

Joseph: [00:25:32] And you know that that's a whole can of worms. Uh, I mean, they're both, post-secondary education. That's about it. 

Robert Rubeko: [00:25:40] Um, I was studying marketing and now, uh, I needed to do something and, uh, I noticed, I, I really like to be like Jack of all trades kind of guy. So I actually, first I got into project management, uh, in, still in digital space, but.

It wasn't necessarily only e-commerce. So it was just, um, just managing projects for, uh, for an agency. Um, but I quickly noticed that, although you could do a lot of things as a project manager, it wasn't really, for me, Uh, just because of the type of the work, I wasn't really producing anything. So, uh, I think that's when I switched more to really focusing on e-commerce and w to like CRO role where I can be kind of Jack of all trades.

Although I have to specialize in a couple. Uh, like disciplines, but, uh, and then I still produce some results. I can see something on the side that I did and I can point at it and like, Hey, this is something I did, or the test is running or whatever that is. So, um, I think my, my, my journey was a bit more, uh, linear on that, in that way.

Although, uh, it was a bit. Yeah. Switching from project management to, um, to CRO was a big jump in that sense, but it was lateral jump. 

Joseph: [00:26:55] Also, it's important to, and this is a less profound through reliant, but it's also important is that a lot of the people, they have their own projects. And even if they're not expecting it to, you know, like secure their retirement, they, they still do it because it's amazing for learning.

And it's great to have somewhere to do all our testing and to. And to unearth discoveries in a much safer environment. And it also evokes to like a sense of play. It's something that people can play with and not worry, still worry about the consequences. We still don't want these things to go down and crash and burn or anything like that.

But stuff that we can take with us into, um, contexts where our responsibilities are more, uh, are, are more pointed. 

Robert Rubeko: [00:27:34] Yeah. And you have much more freedom as well. Like, I mean, you, whatever you like, you can just do that. When you're on time and dive into it, then if, you know, if something comes out of it, that's great.

Uh, but at least you're learning constantly something. And like you said, you you've dabbled with, with that size, but that means you at least understand that nobody's gonna, you know, screw you over again. At least you understand these things. And, um, in this day and age, like. We just live in such a digital environment that many people don't know how websites work at all.

Like they just type in, in the browser or something and it appears it's magic. Right. But yeah, the infrastructure behind it, it's it's yeah, it's complex. 

Joseph: [00:28:17] Yeah. It's all supply and demand too. Like I think for a lot of people they just saw, could I just shout into my phone? Hey, turn on. And then a Google, uh, took them, took them long enough, and then they realized we'd be, we should just give people the ability to shout him to.

Okay. Google, can you turn off my oven for me? 

Robert Rubeko: [00:28:34] Exactly. Yeah. 

Joseph: [00:28:35] Yeah. You said too, that it also gives you, it also gives you freedom and I mean the opposite of freedom in maybe more cynical census confinement. Um, but. I would say the opposite of freedom is, is, you know, responsibility or duty or the need to do to do things.

And one thing that I think reflects really well on people, and I think this reflects well on you is that let's say you have somebody who, uh, you know, they're, they're doing your, your job with the beauty company, but then on their own time, the nothing that they do has anything to do with it, they just, I don't know, they're there they're, there they're a Broadway actor or, or something along those lines.

Whereas, because in your, in your own time, you're continuing to work on, um, on, on punch salad and you're in YouTube. I think what the does is it shows that the people you work with that this is your world, and this is something that you prioritize and you value it and you're continuing to use your own time to grow and develop.

And yes, there's an element of play to it, but that's almost like the coincidence of more than anything. Um, so yeah, I, I think that's important for people to keep in mind too, is that. You know, if you're wondering what direction you're taking in life, look at your hobbies and look at the difference between your hobbies and your profession.

And if there's ways to connect it to closer together. I think what you'll end up with is a more cohesive way of living. 

Robert Rubeko: [00:29:56] Yeah, definitely. And, um, for example, I mean, hobbies usually involve a lot of passion. You really like it then in many times, maybe you can't make money out of it, but it still brings you.

Bring brings you joy and also value through just being creative and doing what you love. And in my case, it's actually getting a bit tricky because I really like what I do my doing my daytime, but I also like what I do during the evenings. So I think everybody has to have hobbies just because you can put your passion into those.

Joseph: [00:30:27] I respect that. I mean, I, as I'm saying this out loud, I'm also thinking about, you know, where my own hobbies and passions, and I'm always going to be passionate about. I'm always gonna be passionate about video games. Um, and one of the things that has always like been a sticking point for me is. How am I going to integrate this into the rest of it?

And so for a lot of people it's like doing streaming or forming communities or, uh, or writing about it. Uh, and I think streaming, uh, um, I participate in a, in a podcast now, which, uh, a previous guest had invited me on. So there are. There are, I don't want anybody to feel like they have to abandon what they're doing.

Maybe it's more about figuring out what are some things that I can do to start connecting these two points, however, disparate they are. 

Robert Rubeko: [00:31:10] Yeah, definitely. I don't know what game you play, but Nope. Which one, 

Joseph: [00:31:15] so plenty. Oh, uh, Oh yeah. Yeah. Lots of ones. Uh, I'll. I'll call them out. Cause I, I ain't scared of nobody, but, um, there's this mobile game called battle Legion where you just, you, you position your armies and then they just run at each other.

And it's, it's satisfying because I don't have to like micromanage in the middle of a fight. I just like put them where I want. And then the fight starts and I'm just like, I'll eat lunch and I'll just watch my army fight other armies. And so it's a mixture of, uh, of strategy and entertainment too. So that's, that's the one that I like I'm most hooked on right now, but there's others.

Robert Rubeko: [00:31:46] Oh, right. But maybe they even have like professional games where you could be the broadcaster or, you know, I, I mean, like, I like to take time to time counter strike, and that thing is very, uh, Very professional. So, you know, you're into sound in the podcasts mode. So maybe as a broadcaster, that could be an actual career where you still with games, but.

Yeah, you do kind of combine them. 

Joseph: [00:32:09] Yeah, totally, totally. It's it's uh, it's definitely an option. I used to play counter strike by the way, a great game. The more realistic than a lot of other games where even though you have sight aiming, um, like, I don't know, like the N all right, so we're getting into the game stuff.

Okay. Bear, bear with us. People we'll get it. We'll get through this, but in like, I don't know if like, in the later counterstrikes did they start adding insight aiming or. Uh, is it still just classic? Hold the gun at the hip and crouched to be more accurate. 

Robert Rubeko: [00:32:35] Yeah, you do. You do need to stop too far, like slowed down too to increase their accuracy.

Joseph: [00:32:47] So let's, uh, let's shift into a WordPress because we definitely want to use this as an opportunity to hear. Uh, from your, from your expertise. And like I had mentioned earlier, you know, I've had a relationship with WordPress, never had an issue with it, but I want to frame this in a way that, uh, helps our, our, uh, our base, like our sellers, uh, men, most of whom are on Shopify because they'd Debutify is a Shopify template it's Debutify.com.

So what could I, as a seller do to in. And mind you, I don't think we're going to be able to like fully replace a store, but based on WordPress strengths, what could I do to enhance my brand or expand my business with a WordPress site? 

Robert Rubeko: [00:33:26] Oh, well, well, WordPress is great. It's open source. So, um, it does mean that you can do anything there and there's a lot of, uh, external plugins that you can use.

Uh, I think, yeah, you just need to see your businesses sort of, uh, If you need something custom, then WordPress is great. Also there's a lot of developers that can do a code for, for WordPress on Fiverr or even like, uh, one of the freelance websites. It really depends. I think, uh, it really depends what you want.

And, uh, in some cases it's better to go with something like Shopify. In some cases it's better to use WordPress and. I I think, uh, yeah, there's a pros and cons for both.

Joseph: [00:34:09] I mean, the way I'm, I'm pretty sure it is. Let's say for instance, my, my shop is running well, but WordPress, um, yes, you can, uh, run, uh, uh, a store through it too, but we're as Shopify templates as good as they are, they are very specific to running a store.

WordPress is. Many things. So I think if somebody wants to enhance their brand in a certain way, like if they want to start doing their own video series, or if they really want to focus on a blog, what would you say are like some of the key strengths or some of the best things that people are using WordPress for?

Robert Rubeko: [00:34:41] I think you mentioned already, if you're into blogging, that's, that's definitely place to go. Um, I think that. So, whereas Shopify does have a strength is the e-commerce focused. So it's just for that. But we were oppressed yet. If you're in bulk cast, if you're into anything that you is a bit different from e-commerce, then that that's a place to be.

And WordPress also has e-commerce elements. So you could have a blog plus your own shop in one, one place. Um, but yeah. It really depends what you're doing, I think. 

Joseph: [00:35:15] Yeah. And I just, I, this, this being Shopify country, I definitely wanted to make sure that for our listeners sake is when we get to meet, you know, the other website countries like WooCommerce, we had in a previous episode, uh, and, and WordPress in this case, uh, it's always good to get all of the information, um, so that people can make the more informed decision.

Cause I, I like, I like what we're doing here on Shopify, but like you said, there are. And even frankly, like I said, there are limitations to it. This one ties into some of the stuff that you did on YouTube, but also ties into a WordPress. I know that you were, uh, offering a website auditing for people from what I saw, you did publish a video about auditing.

So CSO, how many takers did you get? Uh, what were some of the standout choices people made both on the positive and the negative side? 

Robert Rubeko: [00:36:02] Yeah, I, I did well actually, quite a lot of people. Sort of a center website, maybe let's say 50 to a 50 to 60. And then I looked at some of them and I did a couple of videos, but I noticed there's a small problem with that.

When you ask like that your audience to do something is because a lot of the people were like, Oh, I'm building this website. Can you review? It is, uh, it's not as useful. Uh, if you're not established it, if you don't, I don't mean that your big website is just, if you haven't done enough, uh, immediately asking how, how does it look?

Like if I say something, will you change it? Meaning, um, I, I don't want to discourage anybody with their website just by saying, Oh, I think this is too, uh, you know, you need to improve this and that. I think you really just need to start. Uh, learn the basics and then start asking for reviews or, uh, looking on YouTube, how the website should look like.

Um, but I think that the most important thing is to start. Um, but the two websites I did review, I think one of them, uh, was selling pens and the, their website actually looked quite. Uh, it looked up at all school, but it really had good elements in it. So I don't think it needs to change per se because the target audience that the, uh, the guy said he has it.

I think it fits it. I mean, would I update it? Yeah, it looks a bit like from the nineties, but still it was really functional website and it. Uh, you had all the value proposition and how to contact and he had all the elements there. It just doesn't look like we are in 2020. 

Joseph: [00:37:39] And I want to touch on that a little bit more, especially because you have, um, like you say, uh, the a ten-year window.

So would you say that there were like any major generational shifts in what WordPress is capable of? And let me, let me give you a little bit more information to, to absorb that, um, Because I remember when I was using WordPress, I was I'm 31. Now I was most involved in it, like 23, 24. And I admired WordPress a lot.

Cause it really did seem like it was ahead of the curve in a lot of ways. It seemed like it ran more smoothly. Uh, it was more visually pleasing to look at it. It was like the earliest instance of what like web point. 2.0, would be capable of versus like stuff prior to that. Like, I don't know, GeoCities and Zenga and all that stuff where like, I don't know, I just kind of look messy and not intuitive, but, uh we're yeah.

We're, we're like some of the major things that you've seen evolve on WordPress over time. 

Robert Rubeko: [00:38:33] I think I agree with do it 10 years ago. WordPress seemed to be really ahead of the game even compared to other competition. But right now I feel like a lot of, uh, other providers have caught up kind of what I do see is that there's.

We were oppressed it, especially with the templates and things like that. There's huge community. So that has grown to a lot. And there's a lot of companies that just specialize in WordPress because there's enough people to sell to. So I think the community has just grown a lot. I mean, is that good or bad?

Yeah. Well, you have also that means the WordPress library, the free one has a lot of. We're just uncompleted, um, like themes and plugins, which. 

And also because 

Joseph: [00:39:18] you have a lot of extra competition, so a lot of these themes as promising as they may be, if they don't get the traction, then uh, then developers have to move on, you know?

Cause they gotta, they gotta eat too. 

Robert Rubeko: [00:39:29] Exactly. And it's, it's got them more commercial in that sense. So. Pretty much, every plugin has a pro version, which is the paid one. And I understand that it takes a lot of time to code these plugins and themes. Uh, so I do understand them, but at the same time, maybe 10 years ago, he was a bit more like a pro uh, hobby based.

Uh, but it's much more professional now in terms of the plugins you can get. 

Joseph: [00:39:52] And, and, you know, the one parallel that I'd like to draw, uh, it reminds me of the way. Televised and movie content has evolved where when you had fewer channels and you had fewer movies out in theaters, you had fewer options. And so on the one hand.

I guess people are hoping it will be good because it doesn't waste your time, but also because there was less things to compare it to. Um, and so you look at it and say like star Wars, for instance, once upon a time star Wars was all there was. Whereas now, uh, they've tried so hard to maintain on top of that.

They tried to please everybody. And now they're. Fan base is divided. And I think like the Mandalorian is the only thing people really like out of there. So I can kind of see that happening with WordPress too, is that things are refined. And so everybody is more pooling their resources and focusing. Um, and like I said, it's also a hobby too, so it's driven by people who's just desired to do it.

And then over time, as it turns into a business, well, once you get into business, it turns into competition. And so there, I guess there was a lot more chaff as well as a lot more wheat. 

Robert Rubeko: [00:40:51] Yeah. Yeah, no, definitely. That, that, that has increased at the same time. Uh, the bigger official, so get the bigger. By, I guess, a bigger part of the business.

So, um, it will be great to seem more like independent developers that actually succeed. Um, just because there's the big ones really dominated right now. So same thing. I don't know if you know ThemeForest, which is like where you can buy all kinds of themes. 

Joseph: [00:41:16] I, I do remember you were mentioning that on your channel, sorry.

Channel or your blog. 

Robert Rubeko: [00:41:21] Yeah. Yeah. So you could. By any theme there they're all paid, but you get really high quality themes there. And plugins. I think they might even have some, some, some, they have four different platforms, also a Magento and other ones. Um, but, but point is dare to succeed. You really need to be one of the best bestselling theme authors and, um, yeah, it's just because that platform pushes you to the top of the search results.

If you're, you're always selling. So, and. As an independent developer, it would be really hard to sort of keep up with these big guys because they have like 20 developers just doing one thing. 

So, yeah. 

Joseph: [00:42:00] Yeah. It's a common issue with pretty much any industry, uh, where, when something becomes institutionalized, it.

Has more resources to throw up against the competition. Um, one example that sticks out to me, uh, I don't know if you've ever watched mad men, but like McCann Erickson, which is like the big advertising agency was always like the, the, the villain in the background because McCann Erickson had whatever resources they wanted to, to throw at the smaller, the much scrappier agency, which is where, uh, where the story takes place.

And so you can, you can see that happening here. Um, and it's fascinating. This is actually the first time I've really heard about it, about how that. There was like McCann Erickson's of, uh, of WordPress templates and, and, you know, they're evil or they're well, they're, they're definitely an antagonist depending on who you talk to.

Right. But other people, you know? Yeah. Uh, we'll, we'll S I, if you think they're evil, I'll defer to your expertise on it. 

Robert Rubeko: [00:42:53] No, no, no. I'm not saying they're evil. I mean, they deliver value also. So you get a lot from the theme. If you go with the big guys, um, is just then. They, they get the biggest by, by, by far so as independent developer, it will be much harder to do sort of a succeed.

There, there are people that probably succeed still, but I think it's in every industry that when he matures, this is what happens. It just sort of starts to be the big players. 

Joseph: [00:43:19] And then there's one other, a through line that I want to bring up. Um, and I'll pose it to well, when I get to the end of it, I'll pose it to you as a question and bear in mind, this is more like.

I know if something comes to mind, we can share it. If not, it's just worth thinking about on its own. So here's another example. Let's say somebody gets into McDonald's. McDonald's is the most popular burger restaurant on the planet. People might not know, not, not even really know what a burger is. Okay.

Well, at some point. Everybody in their life at one point doesn't know what a burger is, but eventually you learn and McDonald's might be the one to do it now. Rigor good? Yeah. I like them. They're fine. Yeah. You get your, you get what you pay for. But some people, what they do is they divide the taste and it gets to the point where though that food isn't good enough for them anymore, or they start to sense that they don't want to really support their business operation.

And so they start to look. For smaller, more refined operations. And, uh, they ended up mom, you know, they'll pay more of a premium, but for, to them, the food is better. And in many cases it is, but they also feel like they're supporting a smaller business. So I think that's, what's going to happen. It's either already happening or it should be happening as far as what's going on with, with WordPress, with these templates.

So the question is how do people figure out, or how do you get people to look for these other templates? How can they be dissatisfied with something big in order for them to then want to find something more refined, more, um, specific to needs. 

Robert Rubeko: [00:44:47] Yeah, good point. It's actually a tough question because you can't necessarily test them beforehand, unless it's on the, you know, you test the free one, the new upgrade to pro. But for example, in the theme forest, you can see the demo site, but you don't, you can't actually try it out before you, you, you, you go for it. But I think it's a good question is how do you actually, how are you able to support these smaller guys?

But I think you just need to. Go beyond the best sellers and see if there's something that fits your needs because there's usually the smaller guys will do something for niche, niche websites. So they're not going to say, Oh yeah, we do everything. We just focus on this specific niche. And that's where that that's where they are very good at it.

So I think it's just, if you're in the niche, it would be much easier to find something from smaller guys then. Um, when you're just looking for a blogging, uh, theme, because that's, you know, that's so generic that the big guys will dominate that. 

Joseph: [00:45:46] Yeah. And also too, as somebody will look at that website for the first time and there'll be blown away by the theme, but then they'll see that same theme over and over and over again.

And it will have diminishing returns on each into next website that they go to. Um, okay. So th this one, uh, I, I asked this, um, Somewhat tongue in cheek, somewhere for the fun of it. Um, but you, you make a case about how you really don't get any, you don't get much out of running a free website. So I just wanted to hear your take on this.

So who are the people that are signing up for these free websites? What are their expectations? And then there aren't very many people that get value out of a free website. So who gets value out of it. And then why are people supposed to be signing up for premium ones? 

Robert Rubeko: [00:46:26] Um, yeah, free, free website, especially with the vet posting and actually the domain.

You don't get that much, but if you're new, if you've never done the website, you want to just build some, try something out, try your theme, just see how you like WordPress is perfect for that. There's no problem with it. But the problem comes when, if you start getting traffic, especially, um, on, you know, with the free posts, they just can't handle the load.

Either. You'll have to upgrade to a paid account or then. You will have to, well, you will have very slow website. The people that choose free website, I think it's mostly either they're starting or they're really just students that don't, they don't have the money. They might not be in, you know, in the us or Canada.

They, they are somewhere else. They maybe in a, you know, In countries where the income is much slower. So paying, I don't know, 60 bucks per month. Okay. No, that's a bit high, but, uh, 10 bucks per month for a website maybe is out of question for them. So, uh, I, you know, there's, I think maybe some of them want to make money, um, but it will be very hard to make with the free website.

It's not impossible. There are people that make money on the free websites, but it is very hard just because you're competing against somebody who has. You know, the web servers that are really powerful now and Google appreciates that they want that size to load fast. So yeah, with the free website, it's a bit harder to rank.

Joseph: [00:47:50] So the thing that stuck out to me the most is the relative area of where these people live. So. If you're living in and I'm, I'm, I, I did think of a country in my head, but I don't want to say it out loud. Cause I don't want to, you know, I don't want to like look at the statistics and find out we've got a couple of downloads from there.

So I guess yeah. Y'all know who you are as opposed. Um, but if you're in, you know, here in the, um, uh, in the, in what I call the quantum world where things are moving so fast and so rapidly and everything is digital, the, the standard of. Web presences, have your name.com or I dunno, dot net or whichever one is ideal, obviously.com being the, uh, the big kahuna and then it doesn't look so great when it's like, you know, uh, Joe Ianni video game reviews, geocities.com/yahoo.

Uh, okay. It doesn't look that great, but then you get to somewhere where nobody has a website or, you know, people are just getting online. And somebody sets up their website and yet it's free, but it's so much more, it just sticks out so much more compared to everything else. So I think relativity is important thing to keep in mind there too.

Robert Rubeko: [00:48:55] Yeah. And especially with the domain names, when you have.com, there's a bit more trust into it. So you may, you know, you made the effort to buy a.com domain. Also, you can always check it changed at that posting, but if you build up search rank for a domain, you want to kind of keep that domain. Because with the free domains, you might lose it because yeah, it's free.

If they decide they don't want to provide it any more for free, then you might just lose it. So it's definitely not the longterm strategy to have a free website. Free domain.com is much more better, or okay. There are some other extensions that work really well. Whether it's specific to country. 

Joseph: [00:49:36] Yeah. Yeah.

There was a, there was a podcast, a service I had at one point, that's what happened. They couldn't afford their service. And so they ended up shutting down and thankfully I had all my contents saved all three episodes of my podcast college podcast. Actually. It's funny too. I'm just, this is just me like, um, uh, venting for a second, but we have this advertising campaign in Canada.

We're a bunch of 'em. I don't know if you know, like, are, they're kind of stereotypical, they're called the Mounties, um, the Royal Canadian mounted police. Yeah, exactly. The hat and the shorts. And there's this commercial series where they just go around terrorizing people in very Canadian ways because they're signing up for a.com over a.ca like one of the poorest maple syrup on a guy on a guy's laptop is CA and I just think that is, that is so awful.

Why I. Aye. Aye. Aye. Why do you think I want, I don't want dots. Why would I want touchy at all fun fact about Canada every time somebody gets good at something, they go to the States. No, of course. Yeah. Like we have people here who are popular here, but anytime they want to like expand their career or, you know, be on whose line is it anyways or something, they go to the store.

Robert Rubeko: [00:50:42] Yeah. And so easy for you. It's you're just neighbors there. And again, I can imagine .com makes more sense in the long run the event for in Canada, geographically.

Joseph: [00:50:51] It's easy, but, um, There are still a fair number of hurdles to get through like work visa, stuff like that. But yeah, it's, it's, it's doable, which compared to a lot of other people in the world, um, is, uh, is a huge, huge advantage.

Uh, um, I, I I'd be lying if I haven't like. Started listing what cities I would want to move to in the States. Uh, if, uh, opportunity permitted. All right. I just want to get that off my, off my chest. 

Okay. So, so Robert, um, we're getting pretty close to, to the, to the end here. Uh, this is, I don't know about you.

This is just like flown by. I'm just having a, having a blast here. I wanted to ask you about your  experience. Uh, cause you set up like a second channel for it and I was like, Oh, okay. Let's see. What's going on Robert second channel. And it's like, it's all about what happened with the Youtoro. Do you mind telling us like what.

What happened there? Like what  is and what is your relationship right now? 

Robert Rubeko: [00:51:42] Youtoro,  is just like a trading platform where you can invest in stocks and other assets like that. And my second channel is actually, um, I had a couple of videos on my. Um, primary general about eToro, but then I didn't feel like it fits the website theme.

And I did them a couple of years ago and they were fairly successful. So I thought I'm actually really interested also in myself in like self development investing and this kind of topics are set up another channel where I started with  topic. Um, but I will expand more. Uh, but yeah, it's, it's, uh, it's, uh, Website where you can invest into things.

The thing is in us and maybe Canada, you're kind of blessed. You have so many options to actually invest, but in Europe it's much harder to invest in the U S stocks. You have a few players, but they're not as easy to use or as cheap as in the North America. Um, soeToro has like, uh, a solution for that.

And the, yeah, I just review it then. How, how I've done on the platform.

Joseph: [00:52:46] Yeah. I I'll tell you when. A quick tidbit about investing here in Canada is that there was one stock that I wanted to invest in. It was, it was a full share. Um, and I'll just tell you, because. It's Nintendo. Um, and I, and I wouldn't, and I wasn't allowed to buy it, uh, as a non-resident.

So, as Canada does have advantages, but there are still setbacks that can be ratified by being a us resident. However, I will say that I was able to buy do they basically what they do is it's almost like Bitcoin, where they split a share into eight they're called ATRs and I was able I'm able to purchase EDRs.

So if I buy eight of them, I have a full share, but. I dunno, it's typical Nintendo. They want me to put a puzzle together before I can have. 

Yeah. Okay. So you actually, you mentioned, um, some, uh, some personal development channels, and I know that you linked to them. I think it was in one of your videos. And I'm wondering if having looked at some of this, if there was any like.

Major lessons that really like stuck out in your mind that, um, they are influencing you on a day-to-day basis now. And I'll give you a second to kind of like let that mole over. Cause I just want to say one that stuck out to me. Uh, and this was, I was also from the, uh, Tyler Jefcoat interview. And not that I'm playing favorites or anything, but, well, so he said, uh, Keystone habit and Keystone habits stuck out to me because it's the idea of one habit that.

Will yield numerous continued benefits. Um, whereas long as that habit is done, everything else can better fall into place. And for me, like the Keystone habit is like two things. One don't look at my phone for the first hour I wake up and then number two is do my exercises. First thing in the morning. If I do those two things, the day does unfold.

Somewhat better. So that was, that was one thing that stuck out to me. But can you remember anything that stuck out to you? 

Robert Rubeko: [00:54:33] Well, just in general, for me, it's, uh, I think what has helped me develop myself is just to keep learning and actually set aside. I set aside a small budget for my learning. So I see it as an investment and not a cost.

So if I don't spend it, so it's actually a bad thing. So that could be audible books or, you know, Kindle books or whatever you're into seminars. Uh, I think if you're good developing yourself, uh, you will also have much more, uh, possibilities in terms of what you can do and where you can take your website.

And it doesn't, you know, the books don't, don't have to be about digital space. You, if you just develop yourself, I think you can get much further, um, by. Yeah, you just can get much further with, with your life. And for me, it's been super important that I've done this because it's, it has allowed me to, um, switch for example, from project management to CRO.

And I'm really happy with that change. And I don't think it will be possible without, uh, investing time and money into education, not like, you know, university college, but really like. Into developing yourself. 

Joseph: [00:55:44] Well, I think that's a great takeaway is not to look at learning as a cost. Well, I mean, if I was about to say groceries, but I guess food is an investment into your wellbeing.

Uh, yeah. Um, there's, there's eating to live and then there's like, you know, eating really good nourishing food, spending the extra money as an investor. And so, yeah, that's and there, and there's something I think too. If something is a cost, is how can we, uh, view this and say, this is a cost because we're not treating it like an investment.

So how can we turn this into an investment? And I think with that psychology, it allows us to be a lot more mindful of like, you know, we're, we're, we're spending our money. Um, so yeah, that's, that's a great takeaway. And I'm, and I'm wondering if that was going to be the answer to our final wrap up question, which is like, if you have any, uh, parting words of wisdom, is there, uh, is there any other, uh, the timing of that, wasn't a, it wasn't my proudest moment, but let's just, uh, let's just go.

Robert Rubeko: [00:56:38] Yeah. If you're talking about like, related to websites, I think what I drive to bring to my work is I always think like customers first, like if you were the customer, would you like this feature or would you like. So have you a website this way? Um, because we, I think as a website owner or a content creator, we have our own motives to do certain things, but you have to always remember that there's a personnel and the other end, are they going to get the value out of what you're offering them?

And, you know, I was talking about pup boss before, but you know, putting up five ups on one page, is that the best way to actually serve these people and. Yeah, I think it's just thinking long-term not only short term. 

Joseph: [00:57:18] Fantastic. All right. Uh, Robert, we're going to get you on out of here. Uh, again, this has been a, this has been a lot of fun.

Uh, really glad that I got to have this hour with you. Uh, learn some stuff hasn't left, blasted off into space. It's how I, how I like doing my stuff. Uh, just let people know, uh, last but not least is how to find your content and how to find you. 

Robert Rubeko: [00:57:37] Yeah. Uh, people can find me on YouTube. Uh, the channel is tips with punch.

If you have problems with your website, I do try to answer pretty much all comments, as long as they, you know, it's not only just thanks or something, but I do answer if you have questions, try to help you there. And I think that's the best way to find me actually.

Joseph: [00:57:56] Okay. Terrific. Well, listeners, unless this is your first time listening to us.

Thank you for joining us. Uh, what you do at this point is check out Robert's content. And sink your teeth into it. Cause there's plenty more to learn here, these, these hours, it's our job to give you some value, give you some entertainment and really help, you know, introduce these people to you. Because if you were in my position where you got to listen to each and every person, the amount of knowledge that you would have cumulated at this point would be unconscionable.

So the more of these, you listen to the more opportunity you're going to have to learn. And, and like we were saying earlier, get your freedom back. That's the most important thing. Let's get your freedom. All right. With that said, listeners, we're going to check in soon. So you all take a care of yourselves.

Thank you. 

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