Regardless of what point you’re at in your journey, now would be a good time to learn about Infinite Banking. My guest today, Sarry Ibrahim, has dedicated the better part of his life to helping others in the fields of health and law, he’s now brought this mission to the ecommerce space and we’re a lot better off for it. What surprised me about this is, the term infinite banking evokes images of a grandiose concept too far out of reach for many, but in actuality it’s well within anyone’s grasp and I mean anyone, you’ll see why.
Sarry Ibrahim’s business is to help high net worth individuals, real estate investors, business owners and retirees grow and protect their wealth predictably and safely. As a Financial Consultant, Health and Life Agent, Sarry has cultivated a reputation for putting his clients first, no matter what. He prides himself on attending all client meetings without expectations or preconceived ideas to ensure that he is solving his client’s problems. That’s the value Sarry offers.
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Sarry Ibrahim: [00:00:00] This is what we do with clients. We show them the strategy. We, we provide them the content, the podcasts, and YouTube videos, the free eBooks, all the content they need. We go through all their entire financial situation. We get to understand where they're at financially, where they want to go. We help them build out a strategy, utilizing the infinite banking concept to help them reach their goals. And then the client ends up saying, okay, I want to do this concept. They choose what they want to do. And that's what we, that's how we want to educate our clients. We never want to just push something and say, this is the best situation. Trust us.
Joseph: [00:00:37] You're listening to Ecomonics, a Debutify podcast. Your resource for one of the kind insights into the world of e-commerce and business in the modern age. This is Joseph. I'll be presenting a wealth of industry knowledge from interviews with successful business people and our own state-of-the-art research. Your time is valuable so let's go.
Regardless of what point you're at in your journey now would be a good time to learn about infinite banking. My guest today, Sarry Ibrahim has dedicated the better part of his life to helping others in fields of health and law is now brought this mission to the e-commerce space and we're a lot better off for it.
What surprised me about this is the term infinite banking evokes images of a grandiose concepts too far out of reach for many, but in actuality it's well within anyone's grasp and I mean, anyone. You'll see why.
Sarry Ibrahim. It is good to have you here on Ecomonics. How you doing today? How you feeling?
Sarry Ibrahim: [00:01:35] Hi, Joseph. Thank you so much for having me on.
I appreciate it.
Joseph: [00:01:37] I'm I'm starting to think. Maybe I should not ask people how they're doing before we start the recording. Cause I have to ask the question twice, right? It's like, like the next guest comes, I'd be like, Hey, nice to meet you. Like, yeah. Okay. Whatever, just to get ready. Here we go. Switch. I say, oh, how's it going?
How do you feeling? Okay. Well, well, I it's, it's an ongoing testing process, but um, it's, it's great to have you on, um, a little quick behind the scenes. It's also great because for the most part, when I fire up recordings, this is actually the first time when they get to meet people. So energy flows into it.
Uh, you and I have at a, had a chance to call and just talk briefly about, you know, um, what, what value we can offer to you each other. I should have taken notes down. I can't remember taking notes down when we had that call. So a little, a little less than for me, but let's get you into your audience. Uh, tell us what you do. Tell us what you're up to these days.
Sarry Ibrahim: [00:02:27] Yeah, thank you for having me on the show. I really appreciate it. Um, and a little bit about me. I run a company called financial asset protection. It's a financial services firm located in Chicago, Illinois. Uh, we help and service clients in all 50 states.
We help them with financial planning and financial services, financial counseling, um, and other other areas that would help them financially. And, and I've been doing this for about six years now. Uh, prior to this, I was in the Medicare space. So I was a Medicare consultant, helping clients who were like retiring specifically here in Chicago, who used to work for the city of Chicago, retired.
And then now are merging onto their own employer plan. I'm sorry, their own, their own individually owned employee plans from their employer plan. So that was my job for a few years, helping them make that transition and building a relationship with these clients. And then I merged from Medicare. Into financial services.
I still do Medicare, but now I'm trying to combine them together. My main focus right now is financial services. Um, I have about four employees now in Chicago and the company is growing. We're super excited about it and I want to be on, and I specifically focused on one topic called the bank on yourself concept.
And that's where I wanted to be on your show today to kind of tell, share the story and, uh, this concept of bank on yourself concept and how it can help a lot of business owners and a full-time employee.
Joseph: [00:03:39] Well, I'm certainly a part of that target market, as well as one of the, the, the great things about, um, being the host of this content is that I have no excuse in the world and not to also, um, do run my own store, which I, I am, I haven't made any sales yet, but you know, it's one step at a time.
And I, and I think I have the Guinness world record for the human being with the least amount of excuses possible relative to the most amount of resources possible. So I personally want to hear about this too, if you don't mind, I do want to make a quick pit stop just on the, on the, on the Medicare is actually, because I do think it's an interesting idea.
You know, being, being here in Canada, I do think it's a, it's a fascinating subject to the United States health care because you have a lot of challenges. It is a first world country. There's an expectation that healthcare, it also has to be up to that, but I, and I don't want to like start taking sides cause I know there's a lot of pressure and there was a lot of blow back when people discuss it.
But transitioning people from, from Medicare into their own employment plans, um, how did you land it in to that particular spot?
Sarry Ibrahim: [00:04:37] Yeah, so, so before that I was working at a company called Allstate insurance. I was in sales and risk mitigation. And then from there, Um, I wanted to kind of just have like a different, I came across an opportunity.
So like this company, blue cross blue shield had an agreement with the city of Chicago during that time. And I was able to kind of jump on that deal with a few other advisors in Chicago. And that kind of really launched my career because the financial services part of my career came also from the Medicare part.
So it was kind of like a chain cycle just went from one thing to another thing. Um, it, it was both predictable and unpredictable. Uh, it would predictable in the sense of when you work hard and you just keep listening to people, you will find the right things and then unpredictable in the sense that I had no idea any of that was going to play out.
Um, so it's of course there's a lot of benefits to that happening, um, from every side, from the Medicare side and to the financial services side. Um, it's pretty interesting. I think in Canada, your system is, is far greater than our system in the states unfortunately. You know, um, in, in, in the states, only people who are 65 and older and people who have a disability can get on Medicare.
So that limits like 55 million people out of 350 million people. The rest have to get insurance through their workplace or Medicaid. If they are low income or just they're uninsured, which was a huge, huge problem prior to the affordable care act passed in 2008. So a lot of people were actually in the category, mostly were actually in the category of just uninsured and they would just, sometimes I pay some cash for healthcare.
If it was reasonable, It would just be occurred debt and would lead to bankruptcy and other financial issues. But that's kind of the, the healthcare system in the United States for, for a really long time. Um, I wish that Medicare was definitely for, for, for everybody, you know, it's the same structure, how it's set up for people over they just 65.
It'd be nice if it was set up that way for, for everybody in the country.
Joseph: [00:06:28] Well, I mean, it certainly, um, uh, unravels a lot of threads, um, which I would love to have a conversation with you about that at a different point. But, uh, it's, it, it, like I said, it, it really is a fascinating subject, so, uh, let's uh, let, let's bring this back to banking on yourself and we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll put it, we'll pay the pin back in that grenade.
Cause I think that's all grenades work. So when I hear the premise banking on a oneself, I mean, there is the literal idea of being a replacement for the institution. Whereas now I'm investing money in myself. Financial asset I'm. Uh, and I think it was, it was also the other side of it too, is there's a more on a more personal level.
How I would trust the bank as an institution to keep my money safe and to, um, grow the, grow the money. Uh, one thing I did learn by the way from a previous, I guess, Matthew pill more, uh, is that just putting money in the bank alone, even if it's a GIC, uh, oftentimes, uh, Improve our financial state. What it actually does is mitigate the loss, because if I, if I, if I take all my money and I hide it under the bed, that money doesn't participate in the inflation.
And so over time that money will actually reduce in value. So leaving it into a financial institution is the best hope of keeping it. Somewhat in, in pace with the amount of money that's being printed. Um, and of course it's also the lowest risk, the higher risk, the better you have at keeping up and even surpassing it.
So the, on the personal level, it's about investing in myself and having faith in my own long-term growth. Um, It certainly seems to take a little bit more of a risk, but once we know what we know about banking, it's really there's risks, no matter what we do. So I get started with the foundations and how we can unravel this and, and have a clear understanding of it.
Sarry Ibrahim: [00:08:12] Yeah, definitely. Yeah. And I appreciate you bringing up the foundation because it's kind of. We want to mention, like, why, why are we talking about all of this? You know, um, there's a, there's a, there's a reason. And you mentioned that beautifully, that it's, there's a purpose for it. And having money just sitting in a bank account.
Um, or just sitting somewhere, like not doing anything until actually lose your money over time because of inflation, you need your money to grow, um, and to outpace inflation, but also one problem that a lot of people have. Is it kind of once you, once you, once you come across that one problem solution where I want to have my money move somewhere, that's going to help me.
And then structures into a few other problems like risk taxes, liquidity, and other risks, and to address each one let's for example, um, risk, um, to have your money sitting somewhere that's high risk could also be, uh, dangerous because you could lose all of it and you can lose most of it. You don't know what the degree of loss can be, depending on what that risk is and the time period that it takes place in.
But there's also risks that can take place that could affect the, so then if the risk is so high that you lose your mind. Then you were better off not eating, investing it, which, which, um, defeats the purpose of that investment. Now, uh, another problem could be liquidity. Let's say, for example, you have the ability to save your money somewhere and to have it grow at a reasonable rate, but you can't touch it for like 40.
That also defeats the purpose of saving your money if you can't even use it for anything else. Um, and then of course, taxes, let's say, for example, you're growing your money. It's, it's in a reasonable place. It's liquid as well, but you are taxed on every time you touch that money. That's also going to stretch you into a new problem.
The tax, the volume of paying taxes over and over again, especially in the US and Canada, uh, depending on what that type of investment vehicle could be, it could eat into your gains and profits. Again, bringing it back to the first part of, did you even need to invest your money to begin with, so part of the bank on yourself strategy, it's addressing it's it's outpacing inflation while also addressing each of those sections or categories.
This section of, uh, liquidity taxes and others.
Joseph: [00:10:11] Yeah. I was just thinking, you know, what I could do to totally like fill the re the, the reigning of the episode and, and, and co-sign your explanations. Just go one by one and be like, so how do we do with the risk? How do we do with taxes that we do with liquidity?
Um, so I wanna, uh, take a holistic perspective on this at first, which is, this can be very discouraging for entrepreneurs because it's all just becoming an entrepreneur incurs, a great deal of risk. It's not the same thing as having a systemized work flow. You know, everyday I know, uh, how much work I'm going to be doing.
And the money comes in, comes in. It it's, it's certainly a system set up to, uh, help, help some people, um, uh, at the current point and down the line. So in your experience, uh, how was this had a notable impact on people's ability to even want to become entrepreneurs in the first place? Does the entrepreneur typically understand, uh, the, the, the, the problems here and our factory, they need into their strategy. Or have you encountered a lot of people who like, oh, no, this is completely throwing my business off. Now my, my, my margins are all over the place. I actually wasn't prepared for all of this. So I guess in, in, in again, uh, to ask a holistically is how much damage has it.
Sarry Ibrahim: [00:11:23] Yeah, it's a good question. Yeah. So speaking of like the bank on yourself concept, and being able to use that in your business, that actually helps improve your business significantly because of. Uh, what it can do, um, as far as liquidity and having your money growing for you. So to kind of back up a little bit, um, I really want to talk about what the bank on yourself concept is to kind of give more context.
Um, so, okay. The bank on yourself concept it is, it's also known as the infinite banking concept and it is the utilization of cash value, whole life insurance for self banking purposes. So there's for the most part, there's two types of life insurance. There's a term life insurance policy, which is like a set period of time.
Um, it's almost like you're renting the policy. It's own life insurance. There's no cash value in it that has its own function, its own benefits. And then the other one is cash value. It's permit, permanent life insurance that has cash value in it specifically whole life insurance. And as you are funding the policy, a couple of things are happening.
One is that you have life insurance in the policy, just at the title of it. And the second, second thing. You have cash value, like a savings account inside of the policy and that's growing and earning interest in dividends. So the infinite banking concept or the bank on yourself concept, it is a utilization of cash value, life insurance for self baking purposes.
And that means that you are essentially funding a policy so that you be, you can become your own source of financing. And because of the nature of whole life insurance, specifically designed a special. It grants you a tax advantages, um, guaranteed groves, liquidity, um, guaranteed. Um, a lot of guarantees behind the life.
Insurance guarantees the tax favors behind it. There's a lot of financial benefits other than the life insurance itself behind the cash value of it. So what I keep saying, you know, the bank on yourself, concept back on yourself. I'm talking about the proper utilization of cash value, life insurance, and it can be applied for business owners, real estate investors, full-time employees, pretty much anybody who makes and spends money, which is essentially almost everybody on this earth.
Um, it's mostly narrowed down to people in the US and in Canada. Um, it could sometimes work in different countries, but for the most part it's in us and Canada, and it helps people take back control of their finances.
Joseph: [00:13:33] Okay. So between the, um, the prior conversations that we had on the phone that I alluded to me listening to an episode.
You being a guest on a different show and my own preparation hearing you explain it to him. That was actually the first time that it's really starting to click in my mind, not just the effectiveness of this, but also, um, a curiously, the specificity of it. Um, just because when we're describing life insurance, it's one policy out of numerous policies, you know, car insurance to get a health insurance, which we also alluded to a home insurance, fire insurance.
I was trying to think of. I was just trying to think of one as a joke, like think on my arms, start off, but I guess it's a sender life insurance. And, and so when you say infinite banking, I mean the, the, the, the, the dark, uh, um, swirl in my head, I was like, well, I mean, once you're dead, then, then life insurance.
But as far as my perspective goes, it's infinite because there's something that I have, um, on my plate every day until. Well, it comes to fruition, which would be the day that I pass. And it's the only policy that I can think of off the top of my head that would ascribe myself to that kind of value because my car insurance would end.
If I, if I stopped having a car by my health insurance, well, I mean, that was a little bit trickier, but health insurance plans, they tend to, from what I know, they tend to be more protracted. The further somebody is along in their life because the expenses increase and the vulnerabilities increase. Um, so there's a whole mess of their home.
Insurance obviously changes if I moved it home, if I got an apartment, but there's only one thing that's consistent across all of this. And that's like, And so to then be able to have that faith in myself and to invest in myself using life insurance. I have, I have never, in a million years would have thought this was, this was bought.
I mean, it's hard enough talking people into life insurance. You're like, well, I'm not going to know what's going to happen after I pass it. What do I care? Like just getting to a pass. The cynicism is one thing, um, to be able to actually get, uh, get a return on this while I'm also putting into it. And of course, by the way, for people wondering, there are a numerous reasons why life insurance is a valuable investment just because it gives your, your family and your friends, uh, peace of mind for, if I pass, there's going to be numerous expenses burned in on, you know, uh, a burial, the funeral services, uh, lawyers involved, um, that's just me kinda like unpacking what you're saying right now.
So let's just say for instance, with the I'm a hypothetically, but not too hypothetically, I'm hovering around like a 60K figure right now. I'm not great at math might be a little less than that. Where do I really start? I call up my bank and I say, I want to get life insurance. And then. Um, do I bring this up in the conversation with them?
Is this an open conversation that I can have with them?
Sarry Ibrahim: [00:16:23] Okay. Awesome question. So, um, in, in the United States, there's about 1200 insurance companies that sell, um, life insurance. But, um, the concept we're talking about the bank on your self-concept also known as the infinite banking concept as a specialty of life insurance. And there has to be a checklist in mind, um, in order for you to utilize it for self baking purposes, because that's the overall objective of it is that for it to be self begging and it's it's for you to become your own source of financing and to replace the bankers and replace everybody, everybody else who you borrow from.
So that way you can borrow, borrow from yourself. That's the, usually the underlying objective behind it. So in order to do that, number one, it has to be from a mutually owned insurance company, not a stock owned insurance company. So there's two types of insurance companies. Some are mutually owned and some are stock owned.
Um, mutually owned insurance company is owned by its customers or sorry. Oh, by the policy owners, uh, stock owned insurance company is owned by shareholders. Now at the end of the year, when they distributed dividends and a stock owned company, the dividends go to the shareholders and a mutually owned insurance company.
The dividends go to the policy number. It's the customer. So that's one way that you can recruit. The cost of insurance is via dividends back into your policy. So it has to be mutually owned insurance company. Number two, um, it has to be, there has to be something called a paid up additions rider. A ride is a cost, something called the paid-up additions rider.
It's a part, uh, a piece you add to the policy that helps turbocharge the cash value over time for you. A significant amount of growth in your policy and the cash value of your policy while you're still alive. So that way you could use that cash while you're living over and over again. That's why it's actually called the infinite banking system is because you can constantly keep using the money over and over and over again for an infinite amount of time.
Um, even when you're still alive. So you want to make sure that paid up additions rider is in place. Number three, this is a fi a fancy, fancy financial term. It's called non-direct recognition. What this means is let's say for example, you have a hundred thousand dollars in the cash value life insurance policy, specifically designed this week.
And let's say you want to start a business. And you need $50,000 to start the business and you go to the policy, the insurance policy, and you borrow $50,000 against it. So you take out a loan of $50,000 a year, your own financing. You're you're self financing. Now you're borrowing from yourself $50,000. You would leverage the cash value have not subtract from it.
So you would borrow $50,000 against the $100,000 you have. When, when this happens, the $100,000 that you have keeps growing and keeps earning interest in dividends as if you've never touched that money. Even when you have an outstanding loan, this allows you to grow your money and still use it at the same time.
Because when you're using your money, you're borrowing it from a different source. You're borrowing against your cash value. This is called non-direct recognition and in a non direct recognition company, the insurance company keeps paying you interest in dividends on your entire $100,000. In this example, as if you never touched that money.
Uh, so in other words, whether you take out a loan or not, the money grows the same way, and that's what you need in order to be able to grow well over time and still be okay. And the fourth is it has to be whole life insurance. It can be any other type of life insurance. It has to be whole life. So when you take these four qualities and narrow it down from 1200 insurance companies and narrows it down to four insurance companies, which are also present in, in Canada.
But these four insurance companies are the ones that we use. So in other words, if you were to just call your agent or a bank and say, Hey, I want to do this whole life insurance thing and become my own source of financing. And most situations, probably 95% of situations. They wouldn't be able to help you out with this because number one, they wouldn't, they wouldn't understand.
A lot of advisors and insurance agents don't under understand this concept. And number two, um, even if they did most situations, since it only in Nero's had done to for insurance companies, they might not have a contract with that insurance company or might not be a love to have a contract. So if somebody worked for example, for ABC bank, and they w they, they learn about this concept and they want to help the client.
But the insurance company, for example, insurance company, they can't do, they can't get a contract, would love for your insurance company because they're, full-time with ABC, there's a captive contract with them. So now they would have to steer the client away or tell the client it's not a good fit for them because it's not a good fit for the advisor, the advisor, or the agent.
You want to make sure that you're dealing with them? Why is it that understands all these things that I just mentioned, the checklist, everything, uh, and, and, and specializes in the utilization of cash value, life insurance for self banking purposes.
Joseph: [00:20:43] It's a, it's surprising to hear that out of, um, uh, 1200, uh, insurance companies, it narrows down to four and then within each of those companies, there's only so many people who are aware of this and it strikes me as a sign that either like you are like quantum levels ahead of the curve on this one, which wouldn't surprise me one bit or that the industry at large is not quite up to beat with the constant developments that unfold on a day-to-day basis.
Um, is it, am I, am I, am I close? Is it that the insurance company or the insurance industry as a whole, um, has not adopted this? Um, or is it just because like, they're just, I don't know, they don't listen to enough podcasts. Like why, why is it so difficult? This seems to me like this, this seems like a huge market opportunity.
I can't think of a, of any human being on the planet isn't going to die. So everybody at least has some reason to consider life insurance. And to know that some of that value can actually be extracted, uh, prior to, in order to, um, boost my, uh, my life in the here and now, which theoretically would mean I'm going to die a lot later because my quality of life has improved.
I do. Yeah. Excuse me, by the way. I, I, I come from like the, the arts background, so liberal minded. So as soon as I get to talk about death, that's a whole gateway of humor that I don't usually get to do. Yeah. Um, so many, so, so what what's, what's going on with the insurance industry? Why are they, uh, kind of slow to the take on this?
Sarry Ibrahim: [00:22:14] That's awesome question, Joseph and, and I think that, um, it's, there's a lot of differences in place. So, um, you know, the infinite banking system, the bank on yourself concept, it might not fit the needs and wants of other insurance companies. So for example, most insurance companies are stock owned. They have shareholders they're on the stock market.
They have their own, um, problems and opportunities that they need to solve and, and acquire, uh, like more capital, um, you know, stuff from gov government, government regulations. It's not really worth it for them to change up their entire system in order to cope with the infinite banking system, it's not necessary for them to do for them to do so.
They are doing, they're doing billions of dollars already in a different types of insurance. So it's not worth it for them. That's one angle. The second angle is the insurance and financial services world is heavily. Um, from a marketing standpoint, heavily regulated, meaning when you go work for a company it's like, you're joining like a cult, like you're part, like you have to work with that's called captive employment.
You have to only represent, represent their company. You can represent any other company. You can do any business, you can give any recommendations for anything else. So what that happens is, is what happens then is the advisors and agents that worked for these companies start to have tunnel vision, and that they only focus on products that they can sell because that's their job they're supposed to do.
That's what the companies want them to do. And when clients come across different opportunities, like for example, infinite banking, they would have to figure out a way to move the client from the thinking process into their own thinking process. So let's say they would say like Mr. Client, the infinite banking system, I don't think is a good fit for you.
You're better off putting the money in the stock market or putting the money in this mutual fund. So this way they can help them with it, or they, we just have to flat out, turn them down and say, I can help you with this. And the client would then go find somebody else. But of course from a, from a sales standpoint too, in a marketing standpoint, is that you would do whatever it takes to keep the client in your portfolio when you're in, because it costs so much money to acquire new clients.
It's a, it's a big deal. The marketing behind financial service is such a big deal. So you want to make whatever you want to do, whatever it takes to keep that client. That's a huge problem in the extra industries, though. It revolves heavily around what the advisors and agents can sell and protect. Um, and that leaves retirees and people in the hands of marketing guidelines, but should never, those two things should never be on the same table or are in the same conference.
Uh, but unfortunately that's one huge problem. Those are some of the problems in the industry that insurance companies and financial institutions have.
Joseph: [00:24:50] Let's look at the, the, the, the, the lighter side of this as well. So of the, of the companies that are, uh, either, uh, receptive to the. Okay. Actually, before we do that, I wanted to stop a briefly on the stock owned versus mutually owned because mutually owned is the only viable option of the two for what we're talking about, um, for the, the infinite banking, uh, what I would say, strategy or system, or however you prefer to characterize it.
Um, let's just pretend I wasn't thinking about that for a second. Why would I be incentivized to go for a stock owned a business rather than a mutually owned? Is it because I'm profit chasing and. If they're profit chasing, then that's more like we're on the same wavelength.
Sarry Ibrahim: [00:25:29] So just to be clear, the question is, if you know that mutually owned is better than stock owned why would you go to stock owned?
Joseph: [00:25:35] I it's almost like it just took a taking out of the infinite banking conversation for a second. Like, what is the overall appeal of a stock owned insurance company?
Sarry Ibrahim: [00:25:42] So a lot of, first of all, people don't know the differences and are not the differences necessarily between the two, but which companies are the differences, which companies are stock owner, which companies are mutually owned.
That's one part. And the second part too it is that it might, it might be irrelevant, like for example, um, a large company name that you see on TV, or you hear on the radio, that's probably going to be a stock or an insurance company. And if you want just a regular insurance policy through them, just something to cover your debt, that something happens and it doesn't make it really, it doesn't really make a difference at that point.
It's just a commodity and you are looking for the best rates, the cheapest rate. And then you've got to pick that company and most situations, those companies online or on the heavily marketed. Our stock, our stock owned companies because they have the capital backing to do so. So it's, it's all about a function and an objective.
What is it that you want to accomplish and how, and who can help you get there? Um, a lot of people, a lot of people buy stock owned companies or byproducts recycling companies because they're, well-known, they've been around for like a hundred years. They have solid track records. They have billions of dollars in reserves.
So it makes sense to do that. But when it comes again, back to the whole function, Situation. It comes down to what you want to accomplish. And when you want to accomplish self banking, utilizing cash value, whole life insurance, then that, that specific function or that specific objective can only be done with a mutually owned a whole life insurance policy.
Joseph: [00:26:59] You reminded me, I don't think it's a, it's a one-to-one parallel, but it does remind me about the psychology between, between people who say build their own computers versus people who invest in apple products. I've invested in apple products in the past. I'm not innocent on this front. So I'm just trying to like point fingers or anything, but, um, and you know, apple products, they tend to be, uh, A larger upfront fee and it, but it does things.
It does commodify, um, um, machines and devices, so that people just focus more on what they're doing and move a lot of that. I guess, more into the PR. They're not thinking about it. They're just, they just moved on from it. They're just focusing on the usage of the device. Um, whereas I find with the PC market.
Um, and the parallel here is PC market, um, is the parallel to the mutually owned is that people tend to build their own computers because they know that they don't get the, the value of buying a PC right out of the box. Um, so they put their own parts together and it does it, it's a more of a upfront labor, but the understanding.
And, uh, the long-term value of that computer. It does also reflect how long they get to use it and how they're able to really maximize the value out of it. So that's just like one parallel in my head that helped me. It helps me understand it. The difference between a commodification versus. I frankly, I don't know what the, what would be the opposite term of it.
Sarry Ibrahim: [00:28:14] Yeah, yeah. Uh, value, um, kind of also too, like if you have a passion for building computers, that apple wouldn't be able to replace that, your passion for that. And if you want to do PC and build a PC, so that's a good, that's a good parallel.
Joseph: [00:28:26] And then, and then to, to, to expand on that, cause then we, we, we consider the difference between the entrepreneurial spirit versus what might be when it was a little bit more of a systemic creature and I never wanted to castigate them because, um, I mean, family, friends loved ones. They, they, they're a part of a systemic structure and, and I'm trying to like, make sure I don't be like, well, if some people are trapped in the matrix, some people are out of it.
It's a very difficult thing to do. Um, but I it's, it's an effort that I take because I respect why some people need to be in a more systemic structure. They have their dependencies. Um, there. Maybe they want to take risks, but they realize that they're awful at it. And they can only take so many risks, whatever the case is.
It's it's, it's their, it's their life guy going with the infinite banking strategy. It seems to appeal greatly to the entrepreneurship, but same reason building your computer is appealing is because people wants to see this for themselves, do this for themselves and be more in control of their own value, whether it's a reluctance to trust the system or I just trust myself more than I trust another structure because I'm me and I like me versus I'm. I would just be a number or a figure to them. So there's, there's a very broad, uh, approach here about whether or not I want to be what, what I want to commodify and what I don't. The other question that I had, uh, stopped myself was so we compared why some, why the companies, the ones that aren't participating, the reasons why, but the ones who are participating again, this is the part that I just want to be a little more clear on is it seems like they're, they're semi aware. You have some employees who know what's going on and it can be talked to about it. Some don't. So they're a little bit more, uh, up to the take. Now, have you had any conversations with these insurance companies? Have you found a way to educate them on the the importance of, of what's going on here?
Sarry Ibrahim: [00:30:08] That's a good question and the answer is no, because, um, I'm actually, look, my focus is educating clients and prospects and podcast hosts and podcasts guests on this concept, you know, um, the insurance companies, again, they're, they're good at, so somebody who runs an insurance company is probably gonna know that, you know, the ins and outs of Wisconsin, they're going to know exactly how it works.
But utilization of this concept, the way this works, how you are leveraging your own money, but you're leveraging, you're building up an asset, borrowing against it, buying other assets, leveraging those do so over and over again. It's exactly what banks do, insurance companies, hedge funds, private equity firms is exactly what they do.
They build wealth and borrow against it and then keep using it over and over. Um, so the insurance companies are going to know exactly like the executives and owners of the insurance company. I got to know exactly how this concept works because they do that for their own company on a daily basis.
They're leveraging other assets and moving money and keeping a split in between. There are differences between there, um, over and over again. So they know these concepts, they understand the financial literacy behind it. Now, as far as, uh, the focus of what I do, it's mostly concerned about. Um, educating people because that's the most important part.
I went to every insurance company in some house and we convinced them, okay, let's do this concept and said, and let's sit and say, okay, let's do it. It doesn't mean that clients are automatically going to jump on board. We still have to go to the clients now and you can convince them. Um, are not going to start to convince them, but educate them and then have them make a decision because this is what we do with clients.
We show them the strategy. We, we provide them, the content, the podcasts, and YouTube videos, the free eBooks, all of the content they need. And then they say, all right. I'm interested, let's talk. And then we do a financial analysis. We go through their entire financial situation. We get to understand where they're at financially, where they want to go, what their goals are, their objectives.
And then we help them build out a strategy, utilizing the infinite banking concept to help them reach their goals. And then from there, we show them that if you were to put it in the stock market, this is what would happen. If you were to put it in a mutual fund, this is what would happen if you were to put it in a brokerage accounts, right.
And then the client ends up saying, okay, I want to do this concept. I, they choose what they want to do. And that's what we, that's how we want to educate our clients. We never want to just push something and say, this is the best situation. Um, I believe that nobody should do business in that way, where it's just, you're taking somebody to work for, especially when it's dealing with your money, your retirement and your family's wealth.
You need to be able to identify the best option and then choose the best one ever, even be able to connect different options together. So it's sometimes in a lot of situations in financial planning, it's not option eight or options. Well, what if we do option a now and then next year include some of option B that's, that's a more reasonable solution, um, instead of one over the other.
So we help them identify these things and be able for them to make these decisions on their own.
Joseph: [00:33:00] I think the people that you, that you're largely helping again, they have that underlying drive to take things into their own hands. By the time that they sit down and they're talking with the agent, I can understand wanting to have that confidence and the knowledge of, I know what it is I'm looking for.
I know what I'm asking for. Um, and I'm just working with, with rather than again, because if I'm trusting the agent to have all the knowledge that speaks to the larger issue of why don't I just trust a stock owned life insurance company. It's just, why don't I just trust the bank? So it's very, um, keen to see this pattern keep emerging of what does the individual going to do to take matters into their own hands.
And what trust am I going to have in myself as an individual now for my, for my, for my audience. And really frankly, for myself too, is I would like to have some, uh, idea of, uh, preparation, um, figures as well as, at what point in my, uh, career growth, it might be a good time to actually start putting money into this, if not today.
So let's, let's just use a drop shipping company, a company, well, technically sort of, yeah, but, uh, this is drop shipping country. Um, so we do have, um, you know, the, the, the, some agreed upon starting budget for somebody doing their own e-commerce businesses is around a thousand dollars. And while not everybody makes us next point it's it's, I would say it's fairly, uh, understood of why it's worth making, which is you should probably have some income so that you can invest that income into it.
Um, and we have talked to people who just dropped everything, put everything that they got into it, but they also had the money there to do it. So one way or another, you need money to make money. How much could I be looking at, uh, on a monthly basis to start paying into the policy? Even just to get started.
Sarry Ibrahim: [00:34:45] That's an awesome question. And it all depends. So it depends, it's not a product that just has like a fixed cost tool where everybody buys the same thing. It's something that's based off of, um, your ability to save, because one basic rule about that infinite banking concept is. For the, for the, every dollar that you save into it cause, and just kind of put it out there.
It's a savings vehicle, not an investment. So for a, how much you can save into the system will reflect on how much you have in the later years. And of course the more that you're able to save in your earlier years, the more tax-favored wealthier hat you will have and guaranteed growth you have and protected wealth you have in the later years.
Um, maybe we could even see a ratio of for every dollar put in a three times that amount in cash value. By the time you retire in tax-free returns. So if you're allocating a thousand dollars a month for 20 years, you can be, you could see, um, withdrawals or being able to take out $3,000 a month. And, and in retirement as like a pension almost, or like a pension, like accounts where you're taking money out of it.
It all comes down to what the client needs and wants and what they're expecting or projecting for retirement. Also, it never just ends with one policy. Um, most of our clients have numerous policies. Um, they get, they take on new policies almost every year, almost every other year. So that way they have multiple streams of income and retirement, plus multiple sources of liquidities, where they can go to different policies to borrow from them to answer it more basic.
The minimum that you could do, a policy that, that we've seen and worked on is around $300 per year. Um, there really is no maximum, it's pretty much based off of twenty-five percent of your annual income. So if you make a hundred thousand dollars a year, the most you'd be able to put into the policy is 25,000.
At that given time, as you start getting paid raises and start making more money, you can start allocating more money into life insurance policies, which is what a lot of people do is they kind of keep cycling through policies until their maximum out this way. They have that infinite growth of cashflow.
Plus the infinite liquidity, they can keep accessing the policies over and over again. Again, while they're alive, they can borrow for business. Borrow from dropshipping, borrow for leads, borrow for, um, Google ads for Facebook ads. Just keep using the money over and over again, out of their policies without ever interrupting the growth of it.
Like for example, one of my clients, he started with one policy and he was going to have like, I think $300,000 in retirement. By the time he retired. Um, and then he was like, wait a minute. What if I do 10 policies? Just like this over the next 10 years. So one new policy every single year as he's aging and making more money, can I, yes.
Could I use the cash value from those policies to pay the premiums for the old policies? Like, absolutely. And then he's like, will that interrupt the death benefit? I'm like, no, I want to try the death benefit. It won't interrupt the cash value growth. You can have multiple policies open up. And then he's like, so I'll have about $3 million by the time I retire.
Tax-free I'm an exec. Yes, you will. You know, based on these illustrations and based on the portfolio, we're setting up, you have $3 million in tax-free retirement. So it's a lot of different ways to access the system and a lot of different ways to fund the policies. But that's pretty much in, in basic.
Anybody could start the policy, you could do $300 a month. You could do, you know, $5,000 a month. It all depends on the financial analysis that we help clients with.
Joseph: [00:38:08] Uh, at this point, we, we got a really clear grasp on the subject. And I have to say, personally, this is a fascinating, uh, it continues to amaze me that every time I get to talk to somebody, there is some new concept or have some new, um, really perspective or worldview to not only understand a different way to live, but to, but to, but to flourish.
So I would definitely recommend my, my audience to start digging into this more, but we don't want to make any like, yeah, uh, uh, snap decisions, but, um, are there any, sorry, this is a pretty elementary question, but are there any risks associated with this? Like, is there, is there such a thing as like maybe learning myself a little bit, too much money to the point where I'm not able to then, um, uh, repopulate the money that I had, uh, pulled out.
I mean, I get some of the risks, I suppose, as like, if I just spend the money. Right. So I can, I can screw us over in that way, but I just want a little bit more clarity on the relationship between the money that I'm pulling out and the money that's staying in there and the safety of which that the money that's staying within the policy or how secure that money is still in the policy.
Sarry Ibrahim: [00:39:14] Yeah. So there, as far as market risk, there is no market risk with this because it's a savings vehicle it's backed by an insurance company that's been in business for over a hundred years. So as far as, um, market risk, there is no market. Like for example, if you have cash value in the policy and then some of the capital, the stock market, uh, what, the ways that we, the ways that we, um, position his policies, the cash value won't be affected by market conditions.
Um, now if you, to your question, if you borrow too much money, um, and you are able to pay back, so a couple of them. So when you borrow, you can only borrow up to 90% of the cash value. So if you have a hundred thousand dollars in cash value, you can borrow any amount up to $90,000. And then when you do so your money keeps growing.
So yes, you have to pay back the loan. You want to pay it back within a reasonable time. So this is when you could access it again and borrow it all over again and constantly keep doing that. Um, now let's just say, for example, you took out a loan and then you never paid back policy. What would happen is, is that one of two things will have.
Uh, one thing that could happen is that the, the loan balance can keep growing. And if the loan balance reaches the amount of cash value that you have in the policy. In other words, the interest on the low end cap grown in the policy could lapse, I kind of find that difficult because as the loan balance is increasing and how much you owe the amount of money you have in the policy is also increasing at the same time.
So I don't know how it would happen, but this is something that's disclosed that you want to pay back the loan within reasonable. Because the policy can lapse if you completely ignore the loan. Uh, another scenario that could happen, which is the more likely one is that if you had an outstanding loan and then in the future, you pass away, let's say for example, you have a hundred thousand dollars in cash value and you have a million dollars in death benefit.
You borrow $50,000. You wait a really long time to pay it. You ended up not paying it back, which you pass away, your beneficiaries would get $1 million minus the outstanding loan balance. Let's say $50,000 that would get $950,000. That's the more reasonable or more accurate one. The first one is a little bit subjective.
It depends on the insurance company. Depends on the dividends, the interest that's paid out. Other factors. But the second was more likely to happen.
Joseph: [00:41:20] I guess it's possible that there would be a third outcome, which is if I don't pay back my own loans, I might send somebody to my own house to break my own legs.
Sarry Ibrahim: [00:41:30] Yeah. Since you're your own banker, you could do something, you can do stuff like that.
Joseph: [00:41:33] I wouldn't put it out of the question. I've been, I've been my own boss before and I've had some internal fights. So, so again, I'm, I'm just gonna start. So, uh, so again, this and, and the, and let this, uh, let this sink in because I think this is, um, an interesting concept for sure.
Um, when you, when you say that at the lowest end $300 is a pretty reasonable amount of money to, uh, to, to put away. No, I don't need to give away all my financials, but I give, I usually deposit route about that amount of money right now well to my bank, frankly.
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With the time that I have left, there is some others, there is something else that stuck out that I thought might be fun to unravel here. Cause you, you said this term before, and I hadn't heard anybody use this term before, just captive employment. Now my spider sense says some of that might've had to do with personal experience and I, and I guess I just want to hear about like, where, when did this concept come to you and me? When did you see it? Um, realize, or like, when did it, you see like real-world examples of it, um, uh, manifesting, because there's, we can be introduced to the concept and it might be something that explains something that we've experienced in the past, or maybe you saw the concept and then something happened in the future to tie it together.
So I'd like to hear your, your backstory on, on your use of it.
Sarry Ibrahim: [00:43:09] Yeah. And this isn't an official term it's I just kind of made it up. Um, it has, um, it's based off of, like, for example, a lot of financial advisors and insurance agents are either independent or captive. If they're independent, they could represent different insurance companies and financial institutions.
Like they can represent like 50 or 60 insurance companies or financial institutes. They can also do different things. Like for example, an independent advisor can also partner with a mortgage lender or a real estate agent, and they can have a shared office and then do joint work together where you refer a client to them, they could do a refinance and then also do the funding of a whole life policy.
They thinking you could do stuff like that when you're dependent, when you're captive. Um, It's not necessarily it could be employment or you're you work for a company you're a W2 employee. You go to, for example, ABC insurance company, you have to be there set hours, like other W2 jobs. You can only sell ABC insurance company and only represent them.
You would wear their logo, have their business cards, their website, everything would revolve around ABC. That's the only products that you would represent. And then there's even, self-employment where you're captive still, where you can open up your own business. This is kind of like a franchising model.
You're a self-employed you're your own business owner, but you have to follow the rules of the company you're affiliated with. You have to only where, you know, have their polos or shirts, their pens or business cards. Everything has to be with their company. You can only do business with that company.
You can't do any outside work unless they approve it. So look, let's say, for example, you did find that insurance, a real estate broker, or a mortgage broker, they wanted to send you business and you could do some sort of joint work together. The company you're a part of, it has to approve that before you could do that.
If you don't, you can lose your contract, you get terminated. Actually, if you don't do that so long story short, there's two sides. So there's independent and captive. I was a captive employee. I used to work for Allstate insurance. I'm going to retrofit a couple other companies as a captive employee. And then became an independent business owner.
So independent in the sense of I could represent, I actually represent right now, like 20 insurance companies. I have current contracts with them on the Medicare side and on the financial planning side. And I could also, and I'm self-employed too. And I could also, like, I have some joint joint agreements right now with like real estate investors, so I could do these different things.
So that's kind of like the history. Um, I prefer to be a lot of people would argue and say, well, captive could be better because you have a set structure. You, everything is given to you. The website is given to you. The logo is given to you. Um, some of the, sometimes clients are given to you. Everything is handed to you, or what you have to do is just show up to work and just a candle.
Um, but I like the rush of being independent because independent, everything is completely on your own from the CRM that you use, the client relation manager system that you use, the logo that you have, the name of the company, the website you have, every single thing is on you, which obviously makes it 10 times harder, but also it's far more flexible and a lot more.
And more importantly than all of this, more blue than personal preferences, it's far greater for the client. If a client comes to me and says, Hey, I got a brochure from this insurance company. They're there. It looks really good. I could actually look into it for them as an independent agent. And let's just say it a really good deal.
Like they have a really good product. For example, I can reach out to the insurance company, get a contract. And close that deal for the client. In other words, I'm working for the client. I can go out and do these different strategies for clients without any restrictions at all on the capital side that you can't do that you would have to get back to.
You'd have to tell the client that's not possible or tell them our product is much better than that product. Then you have to do whatever it takes to keep the client in the pipeline.
Joseph: [00:46:41] Right. And it can be difficult because if I'm, if I'm sitting across, let's just say, I'm the agent I'm CA um, uh, under captive, uh, employment, and I'm speaking to somebody and, uh, I have to weigh, um, numerous pressures.
So it was the pressure of servicing my company because they are paying me and they're giving me, uh, um, sustainability, but I'm also trying to look out for the wellbeing of the person sitting across from me. Cause that's the person that I'm connected with in that. There are a lot of approaches to it when approach would be, you know, if I'm going to work for this company, I have to really believe in what it is that they're selling, which does tend to improve productivity.
Um, I might add, and, and, and I guess it just, it stuck out to me because, um, uh, in, in a lot of what we talked here, we can, we can go pretty broad and take a holistic view of it is that, you know, that it's, it's, it's another way of looking at what I was referring to earlier about systemic structure being part of a, uh, yeah, I'm part of it.
I have an employment system where, you know, you have your set hours and full disclosure. That's the position that I'm in now. Right? I still have my freelancing, I still I've experienced independence. And my personal perspective is that a, I think entrepreneurship is, um, uh, is this energy or is this force?
It really calls people to join them. Um, people are compelled to become entrepreneurs for different reasons. And so I think for them to be part of a, uh, of a systemized, a work environment, it's all for the learning. Um, it's, it's much better to know how it, how all these things work. So that way, when I jump into entrepreneurship, I'm not inundated with trying to understand what I'm doing as well as trying to make the business, um, uh, functional.
If non-profit. And I was listening to, um, uh, one, another, one of your podcasts. And by the way, you have this really cool playlist where you're like, you show up like all of your different appearances. I've had my, my personal YouTube channel for like 10 years. And I thought, why didn't I do that sooner anyways?
And one of them that you talked about is like, you know, you've had experiences where you're being paid and, and while you're being paid, you were learning so much that it looking back on it and you. Paid money to, to learn what you learn at that point. And so for, I think for one, one way to characterize this for entrepreneurs is, um, let's just say that they're in a captive employment situation.
They're part of a structure. For the time being what would be the ideal system for them to be a part of before they can break free and join entrepreneur, the entrepreneur world.
Sarry Ibrahim: [00:49:02] Yeah. And just so I understand the question correctly it's which route would be better for them to start often?
Joseph: [00:49:06] Okay. A little more specific.
If somebody starts off in a captive employment scenario, what's the best way to get the most value out of it.
Sarry Ibrahim: [00:49:12] Oh, okay. Got you. Okay, perfect. Yeah. So if you're captive the best thing to do is go all in with those few products that the insurance company or the financial institution has. So that's also a good thing too.
That's a, that's a good point is that sometimes it's better. If you have, let's say, for example, you, you work with one company and then you only have like two products, that's it? Just one company and two products that can also be a really good thing too, because what if you have thousands of customers coming in, you could just screen them or have a screener, and then if they want that product or are looking for that, you help them.
If not, chop them off and keep going. And that could be a good thing to business and in marketing because you're, you're getting super good at a very finite thing to do. Um, it's very predictable. Um, you could see your wealth increased that way. That's actually a very smart thing to do in business. It's just kind of narrowed something down and get really good at.
And then if you want it to kind of, of course do more things than the, the independent route would be better if it would be better then, because here's the thing let's say, for example, somebody in California wants to do, um, an investment pro project with me, and then somebody in New York wants to do a whole, this whole life product.
Then somebody in Florida wants to invest in real estate. I could connect everybody together on zoom and figure this whole thing out as an independent broker and independent adviser. Captive, you can't do things like that unless you have outside approval. So, um, if you want to just laser focus on just a few products, captive would be perfect for that, including if you had to turn away clients, it'd be perfect for that.
Um, whereas independent, independent, I think is more exploratory. It's more visionary. It's like, if you want it to do. Um, more things it's, it's, it's far more difficult, but that's kind of like the biggest differences between being independent and cactus.
Joseph: [00:50:58] Great way to summarize it. So I know we get a, we gotta get you on out of here.
Um, there was one of the things that I was intrigued about looking into some of your background. Uh, I'd love to ask you a quick question about it, if it's all right. If not. Yeah. You know, we'll we'll accent because I noticed that you were, you were a civil rights intern, um, uh, earlier on in your career.
And I don't get to really talk about that very much at all and not just on the show, but just really altogether. And, and I would, and I would like to know if, um, you can tell us about any like standout experiences or lessons that stuck out to, from, from your time in that position.
Sarry Ibrahim: [00:51:31] Yeah. So that was, um, I w I was going to go to law school.
I was a junior or senior in college. Can't remember, and I wasn't gonna go to law school. So I wanted to get like an internship and for a law firm or a civil rights organization and then go to law school. Um, and then I ended up, didn't go to law school. I ended up getting my MBA instead. Um, but during that time, I, I, it was really interesting because it was, um, like a civil rights organization that helped people who are like discriminated against, like, if somebody who worked at a company or uh, I dunno. Yeah, mostly it was mostly employment, really discrimination. Um, I would be the first person, like the kind of the screener, like I would talk to them and then take notes and then we'd have like a daily meeting with the lawyer. And I would tell the lawyer like, yeah, this person called they're having this issue and the lawyer would be like, okay, call them back and ask them these two questions.
And if the answer's no to them, then skip it. If the answer's yes. Then forward it over to me, then I'll give them a call. So I was like a screener for that. And it was a lot of good experience because it was. You know, we seen, um, obviously not that much legal experience, but the basics of it, of how the funnel comes in, how people reach out for help.
Um, one thing I learned is that humans are very problematic, a lot of problems happening, uh, happen. And whether it's birthplace, whether it's discrimination, whether it's racism, whatever the situation is, it happens. Um, You obviously can't take it personally. And that kind of goes into a, a little off topic, but I'm really proud to live in a country where we have these organizations.
We have people who will listen, um, and stop people from. From being racist from being from discriminating against other people. Um, that's something I'm very proud of. It's something that I kind of want to go back to. Um, later in my career, I want to start a not-for-profit organization where I help people in poverty with free financial counseling, free financial literacy, um, to kind of help people who don't have the same.
They have the same rights, of course, but not the same privileges or the same standards as other people. Um, so this is something I take very personally, this is why I wanted to be a lawyer, but ended up didn't. I ended up getting an MBA, uh, who knows. I might go back to law school. I don't know. Um, but that's, that was a one, one chapter in my life.
Joseph: [00:53:40] I think between, you know, your, your work in the, uh, in the Medicare field and in civil rights in what you're doing now is I certainly see a lot of light here, which is, you know, you really want to help people in different capacities because people need help in the workplace. They need help with their own health. They need help with their own freedom. And so, um, so, so that's just like a lot that I had to sit. I really admire about, about, uh, who you are and what you're doing. So, you know, it's, it's, it's to summarize into kind of like a, uh, cap off this episode.
Really was great to great to meet you and, and to talk to, uh, add lengthier. And just to the takeaway that I'm having is it's substantial and has ended and is a really sinking in. So I just, yeah, I just, if I can more eloquently express my gratitude, I would, but th th that'll happen.
Sarry Ibrahim: [00:54:21] Yeah, you too, Joseph, thank you so much for having me on.
Joseph: [00:54:23] Terrific. The last thing to do before we get you on out of here is to usually if you have any like parting words, if there's like a proverb, we like something like.
Uh, you're free to express it and then let the audience know, um, in what way they can perhaps reach out to you or to have a look at some of your content.
Sarry Ibrahim: [00:54:38] The material we talked about earlier on, on the financial side, it involves thinking like a bank, it's doing something that banks do. And this is actually ironically how, why we made our podcasts.
Our podcast is called thinking like a bank. So check that out and I'm a big fan of books and I'd like to give away a free copy of a book called becoming your own banker by Nelson Nash. It's a, it's a book that explains the infinite banking system in detail. And I'll give it away to you for free. If you reach out to us via online, our website, finassetsprotection.com there'll be a link for the free book you can. Um, and then also reach out to us if you have any questions.
Joseph: [00:55:16] Excellent. And with that to our audience, uh, I certainly hope that you all, uh, had a great to take away today too. So there's certainly a lot to think about and a lot to talk about.
So all the best to you and all the best, once more to our guests, uh, Sarry Ibrahim, and with that take care, we'll check in soon.
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