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Tim Ash - Unleash Your Primal Brain and Neuromarketing

icon-calendar 2021-12-28 | icon-microphone 1h 1m 56s Listening Time | icon-user Joseph Ianni
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Neuromarketing is the new concept of the day, brought to you by our guest Tim Ash who was also kind enough to share a copy of his new book "Unleash Your Primal Brain" with me, warranting a follow-up for sure. It's an interesting read and sheds light on the way our species evolved throughout history, tracing that behavior all the way to how it interfaces with us this very day. I think most people would agree marketing goes hand in hand with psychology, but the degree of which was something I learned through this discussion. Additonally, we touch on a number of important and timely subjects both in and out of ecommerce and it was a blast to record.

Tim Ash is an acknowledged authority on evolutionary psychology and digital marketing. He is a sought-after international keynote speaker, and the bestselling author of Unleash Your Primal Brain and Landing Page Optimization (with over 50,000 copies sold worldwide, and translated into six languages). Tim has been mentioned by Forbes as a Top-10 Online Marketing Expert, and by Entrepreneur Magazine as an Online Marketing Influencer To Watch.

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Tags: #Debutify #timash #neuromarketing

[00:00:00] Tim Ash: And it's about our marketing technology stack. Are we doing personalization? Are we doing retargeting? Are we measuring it all with analytics? And you know what I basically have to say to that, that doesn't matter at all. I mean, there's a huge ignorance about what you're trying to persuade and that's the human mind. And that hasn't changed in evolutionary terms at all.

[00:00:27] Joseph: Neuro marketing is a new concept of the day, brought to you by our guest, Tim Ash, who was also kind enough to share a copy of this new book, unleash your primal brain with me. Warranting a follow-up for sure. It's an interesting read and sheds light on the way our species evolved throughout history, tracing that behavior all the way to how it interfaces with us this very day. I think most people would agree, marketing goes hand-in-hand with psychology, but the degree of which was something I learned through this discussion. Additionally, we touched on a number of important and timely subjects, both in and out of e-commerce making this episode a blast to record. 

Tim Ash. It is good to have a here Ecomonics, how are you doing today? How you feeling? Great. Joseph, happy to be with you. Happy to have you here too. It continues to astound me. Uh, every, every guest adds to the scope of e-commerce in its own, right. But also a business. And they continue to do continuation of tying business, into, you know, consumer behavior and psychology and all of, um, what gets to the core.

And the estimate is really a human behavior. So little bit of a foreshadowing of what we were talking about today, but Tim Ash, opening question for you, not that it's a contractual obligation or anything, but I'm just going to do it anyways. Tell us what you do and what are you up to these days? 

[00:01:40] Tim Ash: Let's start with what I've done. I, uh, studied computer science, cognitive science, did my PhD work. Although I never finished in artificial intelligence, what would now be called neural networks and self-learning systems. Uh, and then I had a long career in internet marketing. Specifically, I ran a leading conversion rate optimization agency called site tuners for many, many years and say we're one of the original OGs, original gangsters in that field created over 1.2 billion in value for the Expedias, Facebook's, Nestle's of the world, Google.

And, um, after running that, I I'd been focusing a lot on, uh, I guess you'd say how to market and how to persuade people. And that took me back to my roots and my graduate work, which is about. Persuasion more broadly in psychology. And I realized that at the root of it all is evolutionary psychology. Our brain evolved for a reason. We picked up stuff along the way. So I have been focusing on these universal things that describe how we act, why we behave the way we do, how we really make decisions. And of course it can be very powerfully applied to marketing as the crossover is called neuro marketing. So that's what my focus is now, keynote speaking, a lot of executive advisory as well as my new book, which we can talk about in a bit.

[00:03:03] Joseph: More than eager to talk about that book for certain. So there are some, there's some terminology here that, you know, we get to bring to the, to the program really for the first time. And neuro-marketing is, uh, is the term that, uh, that stands out to me. So is it a strategy all of its own or is it. An element in the component that you find resides within really any strategy that you know we're aware of. 

[00:03:27] Tim Ash: That's a great question. I would say it's more of, um, foundational. I mean the strategy and tactics are both sort of on the implementation side, but if you want to understand what you're influencing, it's the human brain. I mean, the technology is what we're focused on as internet marketers. And it's about our marketing technology stack.

Are we doing personalization? Are we doing retargeting? Are you measuring it all with analytics? And you know what? I basically have to say that, that doesn't matter at all. I mean, there's a huge ignorance about what you're trying to persuade and that's the human mind, and that hasn't changed in evolutionary terms at all.

So if you want to have a long durable career in marketing, you should understand this foundational stuff about how the brain works, how it evaluates risk, what moves it to act those kinds of things. So I'm focused more on the universal layers. And I think the neuro-marketing and the underpinnings of it, which is evolutionary psychology is absolutely the starting point for anybody doing marketing. 

[00:04:25] Joseph: Here's the disconnect that comes up a number of times. And it's certainly a disconnect that, uh, I'm I, I encounter quite a bit too, is we have the, the seller, we have the brand owner, they own, they have their own human. Now, they've got one, everybody everybody's given one as part of the starter kit. And, and one would think that, you know, we're all sharing this, uh, this, the same organism, although a di it diverts millions of by millions of ways.

And then, then we have this disconnect between us and then the audience and not being able to, uh, to understand what it is that the audience wants. Part of it is, you know, there's one of us and there's potentially tens of. Thousands of hundreds of thousands, not millions of them. So where is this disconnect coming from? Where the seller isn't able to find the answers in their own mind that they can't seem to find in there, their audience. 

[00:05:13] Tim Ash: That's a, that's a great question. I have three answers to that one because it's such a good question. So first of all, we're experts in our own thing. In this case, you know, we run an e-commerce website, we know everything about the product selection and the fulfillment, and then how we're running online campaigns.

So we tend to overlook what our audience won't. There are millions of little friction points and things like that. So we need to kind of look at it with a beginner's mind. I've always, I built my former agency site tuners on the basis of basically being never satisfied, always advocating for the end user, saying, Hey, from their perspective, this sucks.

Yes, this is confusing. Or, um, they lost the information sent. They can't figure out how to take the next step. So basically, we tend to suffer from what I call greedy marketer syndrome, you know, where that's the second problem, we're experts in our own thing and then we're just trying to ram stuff down the sales funnel and say, let's focus on the bottom of it. And, uh, hope dollar signs come out. And we're not really supporting the complete customer journey or the things that a lot of people need before making the buy decision. So that's the second one. 

And then the third thing I would say is there's a really, almost a universal ignorance about how the mind works. We think that we're rational creatures and we tend to design things for, well here, you know, you get an 8% discount. If you sign up for a year, making me do math and stuff like that, and buying decisions, all decisions, anything that we want to do and act on is completely irrational run by the subconscious mind.

And I think that I very rarely met marketers that really understand that. To such a fundamental level that that's where they operate from. So greedy marketer's syndrome, not understanding that we're really irrational and being experts in our own thing. That's where the biggest sources of disconnect I would say.

[00:07:01] Joseph: And speaking along those lines, and another thing that comes up is there is no shortage of data. Um, whether, you know, we're talking about people, so working in the retail space, um, or even obviously here in, in the e-commerce space and, you know, I've, uh, I've, I've done sales for, for a number of years and, uh, happy with some, but not all of it.

And what we found. You know, one of the most prominent ways to sell a consumer on a product was story storytelling was appealing to that, to that, to the emotional side and building that connection. And so there's going to be a lot of me using the word disconnect and I'll try to space it out as best I can, but you have all of the we're we're, we're swimming if not drowning in data.

And yet it seems like that last hurdle to, to really connect with the customer it's to get the conversion all takes place in that nebulous gray area, emotional monkey brain part, where we have no, we don't really have a way to quantify it. So has there been an attempt to quantify it? Like, has anybody gotten close to figuring out what is the real psychology or science going on behind that part that's frankly, a mystery? 

[00:08:12] Tim Ash: Absolutely. I mean, I think this is a golden age of, um, understanding the brain and psychology and there's people working in lots of different silos, whether it's medical imaging or behavioral economics, uh, or sales and persuasion techniques. There's, there's lots of ways of attacking it.

Uh, but I think that we are kind of cracking the skull open and it's, it is the last frontier. There is a lot of ignorance. I'd say the human mind is literally the most complicated object in the universe. So a hundred billion neurons. That's a lot of stuff going on in there. So we have to focus on that is my point it's about durability to me. It's not about, um, you know, oh, it's the latest technique or what's, uh, in other words, I don't care if it's. Hologram suppositories or whatever the next technology is. Or we go back to Google glass. Right. That doesn't matter. What we're trying to influence is the same. It's just the channel to which and through which we're trying to influence it. So, uh, that's, that's kind of my approach. 

[00:09:14] Joseph: One conversation that I had previously with, uh, Bob Braham and, uh, and his, uh, service, uh, famous is, you know, about enhancing the, the mobile experience and, you know, trying to, you know, use that as a means to give our customers because lots of people are using their mobile phones.

I don't remember exactly where I read it. Uh, we were somewhere where like, yo, we're, they're trying to jam chips in our brains. Some else's like, know they're not, they don't have to, we got the phones where. 

[00:09:42] Tim Ash: You wake up, you look at it, you go to bed, you look at it. And when you're in the bathroom, you look at it. It's, it's omnipresent. 

[00:09:47] Joseph: Yeah. I love to give your, take on the, uh, what you've observed as to be the relationship between, you know, our device usage and where you think we're going as a species in terms of, you know, as a mobile phone, going to be the end, the end game for, for it. Are we going to get all the way to like star Trek where, you know, we're still using our mobile device.

[00:10:07] Tim Ash: Well, I think that, um, if I'm not a futurist, but I play one on TV, so I'll throw out a couple of things. Uh, the first is I think that, um, everything has to be tied to the human body and how we perceive things. So, uh, holding something in our hand and staring at a small screen, that's still not the natural evolution of it.

It's more like minority report. If I don't know if you remember that Tom Cruise movie where he's visually moving things around and there's some kind of holographic projection that that's in front of him. So we want to kind of be in the, in the world, moving, talking gesturing. I think typing on a tiny keyboard is, is not the last stop.

Uh, there's a lot more things going to voice on mobile, but even the screen itself is a problem. Eventually it's going to be just kind of a flick of the wrist and you're projecting something on a nearby, flat surface. That's how we're gonna get our visuals as part of. 

[00:10:57] Joseph: Okay. Well, I'm having to get your, your take on that one.

Alright, so let's talk about this book, uh, unleash your primal brain. We've, we've warmed, we've warmed up to it. To me, it sounds like, you know, it explorer. Uh, that, that part of us that is. The most deeply rooted. It's not, you don't necessarily have to be, you know, say an e-commerce or in marketing to read this book and drive value from that.

Um, is that, is that true? Is it just?

[00:11:20] Tim Ash: Absolutely. In fact, I would say I wrote it. It's a non technical overview of the development of the brain. And, and, uh, it's an exciting ride. I, I wrote it to also be an audio book and to be easily translated into other languages. I recorded the audio book. So I read it to be a read through there's not a single table or footnote or citation in there.

I do have a recommended reading list in the back, but it's, it's a, it's a wild ride through the human mind. And basically it's what we picked up along the way are from the earliest life honor is, um, reptiles, uh, mammals, our primate cousins. And then the last part is what makes us distinctly human, including storytelling for example, is one of the things you mentioned earlier.

And, uh, so I unpack all of that. And so it's not for marketers specifically. I mean, if you read this book, You get something out of it, regardless of your blinders. So you could read it for business broadly speaking, it could be leadership or marketing or sales. You could read it for relationships, for culture, for gender differences, storytelling, all of that stuff.

And you can read it for personal development, understanding the importance of sleep, how memory really works, learning, uh decision-making and risk all of those things. So really it's, it's, it's the operating system for the 8 billion people on the planet. The things that we all share in common, not our individual differences as you mentioned. 

[00:12:45] Joseph: So this was a rare opportunity for me to, um, ask something that really goes on in, in, in my own mind. Um, so, you know, uh, bear with me, audience, maybe, uh, you will all, uh, associate with this as well. This is a part of the, this like my inner psychology that I don't seem to know. Which is, you know, we all have our inner voice.

There's that little narrator going inside know, talking and talking. And it seems to me that the actual compulsion for the decisions I make, have nothing to do with the inner narrator is that the integrator is just there to like justify or validate or contextualize the decisions that are coming from upper management.

It's tricky because I don't know exactly like how far along you've come in answering at any one, given question that I get thrown to you, but I'm just gonna give it a shot because why not is what role really is the inner voice supposed to play in guiding our actual decision making process? 

[00:13:38] Tim Ash: Yeah, that's a very interesting question. I think what we need to do is essentially invert the 2000 years since classical Greece, that we've been taught, you know, that the rational mind is what makes us distinct and unique and better than other animals. And it's in charge. And we think of it as sort of as the charioteer and driving and directing and guiding the wild horses of our emotions.

And creating the momentum, right? And actually that's backwards, the wild horses who are running for you. And once in a while, if there's no immediate risk to us. And if it's something that we've never encountered before and is novel, that we kick it up to the conscious brain, but you're absolutely right that conscious brain, as opposed to the primal brain that I talked about in the book is really, after the fact explaining things, you can see through medical imaging where a decision is made, a certain part of the brain is activated, and then we're able to verbalize it a fraction of a second later.

But that verbalization is not the decision. We don't have access to our subconscious or why we really made it. And it's an after the fact rationalization, in fact, I think it was science fiction author. Great Robert Heinlein, who said, man is not a rational animal. He's a rationalizing animal. So we rationalize things after the fact and come up with a quote unquote reason why we did something, but it's totally bullshit. 

[00:14:55] Joseph: So this is where I want to really ask you about some of the practical methods, even some of the ones that you've been able to, uh, to apply for yourself. So, you know, a person gets up and I would argue that the most important hour of the day. This is probably that first hour. It sets the pace for the rest of the day.

And even just being able to wake up on a proper sleep cycle alone is essential. So, I mean, it's the, the importance of it is determined even before somebody even wakes up. So I should, I should also, uh, quantify, cause I just want to, um, also use maybe the feedback that you've received vaginal understand, um, how long has the book been available for? 

[00:15:29] Tim Ash: The book came out this spring. So it's a brand new. 

[00:15:33] Joseph: So I just want to check whether or not you've had a chance to receive feedback on that end of that. Okay, great. Great. So what have you found to be the most effective way for people to wake up and actually starts to get to that, uh, that, that primal brain to, I guess, cooperate with what it is the rational mind has laid out for the day?

[00:15:51] Tim Ash: Yeah. Well, I'm going to, you said I would argue that the first hour is the most important, well, I'm going to argue back at you. Um, because I think it's actually the least. Okay. And I'll tell you why, uh, you, you absolutely hit on the key. The key to all sorts of survival of all life on the planet is sleep proper sleep.

In fact, there's no creature that lives longer than a few days that doesn't have some form of sleep, uh, dolphins, which are Marine mammals. Obviously they need to breathe. So they figured out that. Alternate, the two hemispheres are their brains. So one's asleep and resting while the other one is not drowning.

And then migratory birds actually take micro naps and drop out of the sky, but don't quite hit the ground as they do these long migrations, but they need sleep too. It's not optional, it's life support for everything. And so the way you go to sleep as the most important that last hour, when you've experienced or consciously put into your mind in that last hour before sleep gets processed about five to six times more than the rest of the day's events combined.

And so anything you can do to kind of load up an interesting creative problem that you've thought about, or that you need to figure out sleep on it. It works creativities on cork during sleep proper seven to nine hours sleep, including several REM cycles. Um, and also anything that you learned that day, any mental or physical skill, if you don't sleep on it, it doesn't get encoded as into long-term memory.

You don't get the benefit of the training. Uh, so, and then also sleep calibrates for human beings, the nuanced social interactions we have. If you don't get sleep, you get paranoid. You think people are set up against you. You misjudge the micro expressions on their face as being in aggressive. So you can't function in any kind of society or group without sleep.

So for all of these reasons, sleep is really crucial. There's a, one of the habits that I have is I do a little gratitude journal. That's not like I write a lot. I just a bunch of bullet points that just remind me of good things that happened that day. And I write them down. Bye in pencil, um, in my little dope book just before I go to sleep and then that sets the tone for the following day. 

[00:18:00] Joseph: Lately in the last, uh, couple of weeks when, uh, I have it, I had adopted almost close to that, but I had, what I did was top three. Failures of the day, then top three successes of the day. And what I found was I wanted to take some time also to hone in on, you know, what are the mistakes?

What are the things that I, I didn't feel I did particularly well, as well as, you know, focus on the, on the, on the achievement sides as well. Now it's funny too, as you just said, you know, and you're going to argue back at me and I thought, yeah, this is a debate. I don't know if I'm going to hold my own.

[00:18:32] Tim Ash: Well, here's the, here's how I would do it. I think you need to consider both, but doing it a different time. So for example, at night, I would just do the gratitude part. And that's why religious people, for example, they say their prayers, they remember all the things to be grateful for their kind of blessing themselves and the people around them.

If you will, at the end of the night, before they go to sleep, that's the right thing to do in the morning when your mind is fresh and most creative, and you have some reserves of that conscious mind, executive function, that's called that's the time to think about problems and how to deal with and tackle your biggest ones.

First, I had a mentor once that told me kiss the biggest frog don't put off, don't do your emails and do all those menial tasks. Take your hardest problem and tackle that in the morning. 

[00:19:16] Joseph: And so do you find if you were to rate, we're getting very much at the time management here, but I, um, this is boring for me anyway.

So if you were to plan out your day, would you plan it out in, in the morning and then I set the pace for the day, at that point? Or do you, or do you find yourself more planning it the night before? 

[00:19:32] Tim Ash: I would say that block-out will, the planning should be blackout time and that should be done in advanced my friend near ya'll wrote a great book called in distractible.

He also wrote one called hook, which is about how to make a habit forming process, uh, products, but in distractible is all about how to, of course, avoid those distractions. And I think, uh, blocking out time is key. That doesn't mean you have to fill every single part of your day, but it doesn't mean you should be intentionally thinking about how you're going to allocate and prioritize your time.

And as part of that, you should have unstructured time. I'm going to do nothing, or I'm going to take a nap in the mid early afternoon. That's something I do often. And it's a schedule that in, it's not a problem to let yourself rest, let your mind rest. You can't always be going a hundred miles an hour.

That's not productive. All that, you know, oh 4:00 AM club bullshit. Uh, you know, important my friends, unless you're going to sleep it. And you get a full eight hours of sleep. You should not be part of the 4:00 AM club. That's not productivity. That's just actually self-destructive and it's going to kill your mental health.

[00:20:39] Joseph: Yeah. And, and for what it's worth it, doesn't, uh, people are free to swear in this program. We've, we've, uh, I, I'm not keeping track, but I think we're on we're on like 12 to 14 F-bombs so far. So yeah. That's no worries. 

[00:20:49] Tim Ash: What the fuck. Okay. We just give me 15.

[00:21:01] Joseph: The feedback part of it was such a, um, a crucial subject for really each individual. And you said you've received tons of feedback. So I am curious to ask, you know, what's some of the feedback that maybe you didn't anticipate, what's been some of the, the standout, um, responses that you've gotten to it.

[00:21:17] Tim Ash: Well, as I was writing the book, people are saying, hey, this is great, Tim you've unpacked, kind of the evolutionary arc and how that made us who we are. Um, but I actually, as a result of feedback, added a final chapter called how to be more primal. And it has some of these tips, including getting sleep and other things about how to do that on a personal level and the importance of those things. And again, describing why that's important, um, from an evolutionary. 

[00:21:45] Joseph: For me, it's only it's crossed my radar here and there. Uh, I, I never had a chance to get too much into it, but I would absolutely love to hear about, you know, your, your experience with it. And so for people understand, here's what I do know, and it's not much, but here's what I do.

And now, you know, you have hardware and we talk about the physical machines. You have your software, which is the programs, the apps that are running on the hardware and then at wetware is us the human being. Yeah. Okay. That's as far as far as I know, but, um, in, in, in, in, in creating this book and in your, in your continued pursuits, and even in your, you know, in your history, working in e-commerce and digital marketing for so long is.

Yeah, when it went rare, cross your, your radar. 

[00:22:31] Tim Ash: From the, from the very beginning, like I said, cognitive science was one of my undergraduate majors back at the university of California, San Diego. I double majored in that in computer engineering. So it's always been kind of software and wetware. And to me, the most interesting thing is definitely the wetware.

And there's a lot going on in artificial intelligence right now we're training machines to, from large data sets to extract kind of human-like levels of appropriate responses and everything from medical diagnosis to other fields. And it's really quite amazing. But what we're really doing is we're not writing programs anymore.

We're just saying let's take the hive, mind the collective experience of millions of people based on their actual actions and let that guide us. So in a way, artificial intelligence is being trained. On lots and lots of Schumann experiences and that's, what's making it smarter. It's not like there's some brilliant programmer that's writing code somewhere.

[00:23:34] Joseph: Okay. So see, so this is, I guess, a bit of a misconception on my part is thinking, um, specifically that it only relates to, to humans, but it's actually more than that. It's the relationship between us as, you know, hardware running internal software and how that is providing information so that machines are starting to pick up on these things on their own.

And so you had mentioned, you mentioned it before at the beginning as well, is the, is the self learning process now myself and maybe others have seen, I've seen Terminator. So, you know, there are, we do get a for some people, the, the, the, the, the hairs rise up. So what can you tell us about the objectives of this? And. 

[00:24:14] Tim Ash: I don't know that there are those, if you want to read a really good book, I'm just going to deflect that by saying there's much smarter people than I have that have thought about this. My friend Mogadon, um, these written a couple of books solve for happy is one, which is also fantastic, but he just wrote one called scary smart.

And it's about the approaching singularity. In other words, uh, you know, when AI becomes sent and what we can do in the very brief time, that's allowed in order to be able to at least influence the course of that is after that all bets are off. I mean, when, when machines get smart enough to say, Hey, human beings are an efficient, good chance.

They'll try to kind of like work us out of the system in one way or another. I'm not talking necessarily Terminator robots, but, but, um, just kinda sideline us and these things take on a, a momentum and a, you know, an emergent quality of their own. For example, you can look at a million snowflakes and they're all unique and wonderful, but by looking at a snowflake, you can never predict an Avalon.

That's an emergent property of millions of snowflakes. And in the same way, your smart door sensor, your Siri, your Alexa, when they're all talking to each other and turning on your coffee pots and opening your garage doors, those are relatively simple actions, but we just cannot imagine what the system dynamics of that is going to be like when they're, you know, billions of them in operating in the world in the wild. 

[00:25:45] Joseph: I guess the, the part that I enjoy in, in using my imagination on this is to somewhat visualize.

You know, what society will, will look like and what society will will function like. And again, you know, as you say, there's, uh, there's other, uh, um, uh, experts on the subject of delved into this, um, much further. So you'll feel free to just have fun with this, which is I hear about this. And, you know, we, we hear about, um, automation.

That was a, that was a big subject, um, uh, last presidential cycle. And, uh, and in tying in to what we're discussing here. And I guess the, the vision that I have for the future is that, you know, people still want to work. People still want to do things, but it's all going to be within the fields that well machines probably don't really have a hand in creative fields.

Um, the arts, um, a sports competition, um, the Olympics, the, or an entertainment. More more free time for people to, to do as they please and too, and just focus on the, on that kind of a healthy competition. So I, it's a bit, it's a utopian view of, uh, of where we're going to go. If somebody walks into a, uh, a McDonald's and just like taps on the screen and the food shows up, is there going to be a person there?

I don't know. Maybe they'll just have a few costs a year just to keep people company without them. 

[00:26:59] Tim Ash: Utopian of McDonald's is still around killing you with that crap food. But I used to eat a lot of McDonald's. I stopped doing that. 

[00:27:09] Joseph: I, I still, I'm just joking. I'm just giving you, I mean, you're not wrong and not as a isn't particularly good. Uh, somebody's a YouTuber that I watch, he said, yeah, yeah, stop. Uh McDonald's is that a single McDonald's meal is more harmful to you than a pack of cigarettes.

And so I, I took that advice and started smoking. I just seen him skinny. So it's again, and, and, and, and having fun with this is, and then we'll move on to, cause I'd also want to talk about the landing page optimization and tying in some of the, uh, um, um, someone we talked about in that is, um, where would you like we're at, or what's, what's your utopian vision of, uh, of society, whether or not. 

[00:27:46] Tim Ash: I don't know that it is a utopian vision. What we're seeing actually is that, um, when you don't need people before we use the animals, you know, we use draft horses, we use wind power and windmills and, you know, in Holland. And we tried that, that was then the industrial revolution. We use fossil fuels and steam to move things. And as you said, though, what's happening now is more and more is moving into kind of a mental realm.

The problem is it's pretty easy to harness all that. So there it's easy to exploit right now in the US we have a hundred years high of income inequality. So in the gilded age, it was the railroad robber barons that concentrated the power. Now it's the, it's the Teslas and the Amazons and the Googles of the world.

And what you end up with is not something utopian. We're seeing it. Now you end up with Uber, you know, their commercial is everyone needs a side hustle, really just to live like a human being in a civilized society. I need a side hustle, screw that. So I think it actually creates opportunities to concentrate wealth upward and, um, that corrupts the political process and basically serves the interests of the 1%.

I, and at some point when that gets unsustainable, usually you have some kind of, uh, violent or cataclysmic revolution of sorts, uh, when people just feel they're being exploited and it's too unfair, that's something else that comes out of our evolutionary psychology. This is like, screw this half a loaf is better than none.

If you're really giving me just one person. And you're keeping 99% for yourself. That's unfair. And I will actually make things worse for myself in order to not let you have that. Uh, so I'm actually predicting something more negative and cataclysmic, not like we're all artists and Olympic athletes. 

[00:29:31] Joseph: I respect that. I, so, so what I'll, what I'll say is, you know, being, I I've been a freelancer for 10 years, right. So, you know, I'm part of the, the, the side hustle generation. And in, in some, in some, in all my sales jobs, I was well in one of them, the whole division was let go in another one, a new Disney manager comes in and we were all like, go, she just wanted a score.

And it's like, and in some cases, you know, I did, I was quite good at the job. It didn't matter. It was just, it was a loyalty thing. Um, and then I started pursuing. Uh, this in editing and in podcasting. And, and so that, you know, in, in thanks to places like Upwork fiber, not so much, but you know, Upwork and Craigslist and all of these, uh, these platforms, I was really able to actually, um, advance myself.

And so, you know, you have other people in there they're driving, running, and Uber is, and I understand that the profit margins are razor thin. Uh, it's not exactly, uh, sustainable, but it is giving people options. Um, because if you just look at the money you made. Yeah, it's pretty depressing, but we can also look at is the human connection of every time somebody is in the car that can open up a new realm of possibilities.

Who knows who, who you have a conversation with. Maybe they have an opportunity for you. And next thing you know, you're not driving Uber's anymore. And now you're a chauffeur. 

[00:30:48] Tim Ash: By the way, as soon as soon as self-driving technology gets good enough and fleet vehicles have electric cars, you know, that's just a few years away.

Um, then there won't be a need for drivers, but also, I mean, but is it the highest and best use on of people on the planet to be driving taxis essentially by another name? Um, I would argue that's not necessarily the best either. So, so I get what you're saying is that some people will benefit from it too, to some extent, but really, uh, I don't know that this kind of automation is.

A good thing for society. We're just always on, we're always sleep deprived. We're always stressed out. We never feel like we're off duty or always feeling like we're falling behind. There's this hyper competitive capitalism without a social safety net. I personally judged to be a problem, not the solution. 

[00:31:34] Joseph: Well, I'm happy to keep on talking with you about this. Cause I think this is all really interesting subject matter as well, but the, the other side of it that I wanted to, um, to, to say too, is, you know, we talked to people they've, they've, they've used Amazon, for instance, as a, as a means for success, they've been able to run their, their business through it.

Uh, one episode, I think you might, uh, like, I don't know if you ever met or heard of Dr. Robin Gaster, but he talks, uh, greatly about what would be the end game for something like Amazon. You know, Jeff Bezos, you can credit him for giving a lot of people means to take matters into their own hands, run their own business.

But on the other hand, the amount of wealth that he has a mask, it goes beyond competition. And it just like. 

[00:32:15] Tim Ash: As far as the practical stuff is pretty, pretty obvious, right around 1980. Uh, wages went flat productivity continued to increase at a straight line that Delta is being harvested. You're being skimmed for money essentially.

So everyone assumes that there is some American dream and we can all be Jeff Bezos. But the fact is there's one Jeff Bezos, there's only room for one Jeff basis. The rest of us are his cattle. Uh, and you know, you think you're making things easier for yourself by being able to order something on Amazon and it arrives next day or within an hour, if you're in New York.

Well, you know, that's great, but we don't talk about the externalities on the price. People are paying for that. And the, and the, the quality of people's lives in those warehouses or any number of other things. So again, I don't, I don't want to go down a rabbit hole unless you want to, but I definitely also strong opinions on that.

[00:33:05] Joseph: I like talking about it. I really do. 

[00:33:09] Tim Ash: Like, if you talk about these Amazon, um, conferences and Amazon sellers, I mean, it's this really. Actually kind of sick thing in e-commerce where you can't do very well without Amazon, but they're separating you from your customers, right? You don't have direct access to your customers.

They control everything that they're putting the squeeze on you in terms of whatever arbitrary fees they want to charge. And it's worse than that. They're actually using you for market research. So if they notice you're selling something, well, they'll go knock it off in China and have an Amazon basics version of it that competes with you.

And all of a sudden your ads aren't showing up, even though you're trying to pay them money to be part of their marketplace. So that's a very a, would you say incestuous business model, and this is designed for Amazon don't get confused. 

[00:33:53] Joseph: So seriously, here's a question for you. Then we can tie in some of that, that, that gray area that we talked about earlier, the, the, the nebulous territory that, you know, has quantified someone by story selling.

Um, and this, and this comes up quite a bit is, you know, in order for brands to even have a fighting chance, whether they're on Amazon or they're not, is to go beyond, um, just the, the data, but to actually have some kind of meaningful mission, a mission statement, a story, a story. 

[00:34:20] Tim Ash: Let's talk about, uh, exactly. Let's talk about, uh, what's the best way to put it, how to position yourself and how to hide from Amazon, because there's very few defensible places left and you're absolutely right to hone in on the story and the tribe as the basis for that. What I think a lot of e-commerce companies really miss the point is that they're talking about what's the best way to put it.

They're talking about. Well, we put up an online store and we sell this stuff and everybody else sells this stuff, buy your stuff from us. I mean, essentially that's a race to the bottom in terms of pricing there's or nobody wins in that scenario. Right? So when you need to do is cultivate your own tribe.

Don't farm other people's land. You're just a surfer slave in that scenario. Okay. So you have to be able to attract people to you. That's the first thing that people need to understand. You have to be a magnet to attract the right kinds of customers and audience. And in order to do that, you're absolutely right.

You have to have a differentiation and that differentiation is in the form of, I would say your origin. Why you exist, you know, it's that classical story in the form of the hero's journey that you see from the Odyssey to star wars, because it's how we take in information. Life was good. Something went bad.

I went on a quest, I picked up some unexpected allies. I eventually killed the dragon. And then there was a re greening of the earth. And now I'm trying to bring this mission to the world. So if you don't have that kind of passion, if you don't, if you can't clearly say why you exist and what you stand for that, then you're going to lose. That's it, it's that simple. 

[00:35:53] Joseph: A lot of the people that I talked to, they have, um, through their various means, been able to take control of their own life. They are, um, what I would deem free under the circumstances does the society that we're in, they have, they can choose to fly. They can, they work more.

They decide how many hours they want to work. They've delegated their tasks to other people, virtual assistance and all of that. And how, I mean, I've been talking to these people for a year now, and it is very difficult to not want to take a record of myself, which is why I am now. It seems to me that this is the only way for somebody to actually, you know, become free, is to, uh, is to reach that, that economic level, the six figure territory, the seven figure territory.

And I don't see really any other way. I dunno, going off grid and seeing if there's any undiscovered tribes in the Amazon and just trying to like live, you know, a completely, uh, well, you know, primal. So from your point of view is what have you seen to be the most, if possible ethical, but really like the most, um, uh, humane, um, the tangible realistic way for somebody to be as free as they can in this society.

It's very high minded, but. 

[00:37:12] Tim Ash: Pretty philosophical for a podcast that okay, I'll take a crack at it. Depends on where you're starting out. The thing is. I haven't been one of these, you know, kind of bleeding heart liberals necessarily, but I find myself thinking about privilege quite a bit. Now I immigrated here from the former Soviet union.

I was lucky enough to get out. Um, when I was eight years old, my family immigrated here and I came in America and I believed in the American dream, you know, and it was about, you know, just work hard and it's a meritocracy and everything's wonderful, but what I didn't realize it just by being white and coming from a parents took an entrepreneurial risk, but to come to this country for a better life for me and my little brother and by them having advanced degrees and good careers in engineering, when, when they landed here, you know, it all seemed like, yeah, that's, that's the narrative, but if you're swimming against rip tides of, you know, nobody in my family ever went to college or, um, there's overt discrimination or, uh, you know, I have to pay more for my mortgage, um, because of the neighborhood I'm buying in or any number of things.

When you, when you have all of this in a pulling on you and holding you back, I really think it's a disadvantage. So the discussion you're having, and then I'm happy to have, is that, yeah, that's, that's fine for educated white people in this country. You know, but that leaves out mass massive groups. So I'm much more concerned with what kind of support systems can we set up?

How can we help each other? What's cooperation look like in this day and age, the center is not holding. If everybody's out for their individual self-interest then you get the live in a gated community somewhere with armed guards and German shepherds. Congratulations. If that's, if you're quote unquote successful, that's not the society I want.

Um, I went to public school all the way through graduate school. My kids are going through public school. I want to be in the mainstream society and say, Hey, how do we pull together? Uh, since the kind of post-World war II period, there hasn't been that sense of collective mission. Everyone's talking about their free DMS these days, you know, as if their individual self-interest should govern everything.

So that's my philosophical answer to your philosophical question.

[00:39:27] Joseph: What I'd love to do. I mean, I know that your, your, your, your time is, uh, is premium to, to put a mildly, you know, cause I wasn't sure exactly how far along we can. Uh, we were going to be able to get into this, right. I just, I just met you today.

So more, more, you know, more than happy to continue along with these, you know, I'll, I'll have some time to think about it as well, but, uh, and, and that's that's as far as I'll go, I just wanted to, to hear your take on it. Uh, and I am one of those, uh, I am one of those people you described, I should, I should say, you know, wow.

[00:39:57] Tim Ash: Becoming more of that way. My wife's a social worker, so I've just, you know, she's had a long-term effect me instead of libertarian, I'm more of a, you know, call it, my Cami roots are coming back. I'm good with socialism, the kind they have in Europe where people don't, don't have to think about food and security. 

[00:40:14] Joseph: I mean, it, cause it is, it is, uh, it is all about all our perspective, right? And I come from, I come from the arts, I come from no, a creative, um, uh, media background. And so, you know, for me being going through school, you know, K through 12 and then high school and constantly being in these structured environments and, you know, going through in many cases, nightmares, I know it's all perspective, right?

I'm sure you, you, you come from the Soviet union where there was a lot more, uh, nightmarish things going on there again, it's, it's, it's relative. And so, I mean, a lot of that just comes from me. I really am just compelled and I just, I crave that. To and if that comes at a cost to me and then so be it, if it actually comes at a higher danger than so be it.

And I think the, you know, the ongoing, you know, phrasiology that we use on the show is that, you know, if we are running a business, we are going to be of service to others. You know, we don't want to just, uh, mass our money, Scrooge McDuck style. And then, and so around gold coins, we want to know that we're being compensated for doing something good for a large amount of people.

Willing to take that risk, willing to, to get the reward for. 

[00:41:17] Tim Ash: And then one thing that, that, uh, they've done this long-term longitudinal study, they took a cohort of people that went to Harvard and some of their south Boston, poor cousins, if you will Southeast, and they've tracked them for 70 odd years, there have been four program directors over that span of time.

And they basically asking the questions of what makes a good life. And it turns out that, you know, money is not the answer. I mean, there's statistical evidence that says being independently wealthy makes you 3%. Hmm. That's a fact. And then, yeah, that's a statistically significant effect, but it's only 3%.

And what actually makes you happier, strong social contacts. We're highly social creatures. The last part of my book unleash your primal brain is called hyper social. And it talks about that, that we can not survive in isolation on our own. So it's about, again, this myth of the entrepreneur, again, whether it's the bayzos or the Musk or the world, or the gates is of the world is just that a myth that's built on a lot of other people's cooperation on many, many turns of walk, I believe, but what we need to do is have healthy social relations.

Um, good sleep and being engaged in the world. Being curious, being part of a community, those are the things, you know, friendships, strong ties like that. That's where you should be investing. Quote, unquote, if you want a good life, not, not grinding it out harder by checking your email at 2:00 AM. 

[00:42:42] Joseph: That was, um, a one take where there was a podcast you did and 2020. And one of the, one of the terms that was brought up there is that, you know, being an isolation and drives us insane too. And that was in, uh, in October of 2020. And so, I don't know, like six or seven months into the, uh, into the pandemic. And so once in a while I do pandemic questions. I try not to bring it up too often, but have you, what have you observed to be a, you know, the, the, the, the effects are what could be the, the long lasting long-term effects that we're going to be dealing with five years from now, 10 years are not as a result of this, uh, hyper isolation.

And then what have you seen to be the pockets of, um, you know, innovation or means that people have been able to, uh, find ways to socialize even under the circumstances? 

[00:43:32] Tim Ash: That's a great question. I'd say that, uh, overall the effect has been hugely negative. And as you mentioned, um, I talk about in my book, you know, we're highly social creatures.

We shouldn't be isolated just as mammals we're pack animals. And if we're alone, we die, but as human beings, we have the largest close tie social groups of any mammal. So by far, uh, that famous Robin Dunbar number, the Dunbar number of one 50, it's really, we have a closed group of a hundred to 200 people that we can keep very intimate track of and understand all the social dynamics in a group that size.

And if you don't have that, then you, you, you can't function. Uh, essentially there's um, so zoom meetings are a very poor substitute for that. Uh, I'm sorry to say, it's just not the same. I'll give you a very close to my heart example. You know, I have two teenagers in the house one's, you know, depressed, um, clinically, you know, and on medication for it.

The other one had a real rough year with virtual school and failed three classes. And when I was signing up to retake a couple of those for summer school, this is San Diego unified school district. So big one with, you know, a hundred of thousands of, of students. Um, they said that, well, I'll actually, I'll let you guess.

Um, percentage increase. Do you think there wasn't people that had the take summer school that basically failed at least one class over a normal year? 

Very specific Mr. Spock. I like that. Actually 1500 is the right answer. The number of people failing at least one class. The number of people failing at least one class that past school year was 1500%.

That's and that's just so actually the, I think there are different populations that are at risk for different reasons, but the one I'm kind of focused on is that 12 to 25 cohort, basically when you're outward focused before your brain is fully formed. And you want to build social ties with your friends now with your parents, but with your friends and peer group.

And those are the kids that have suffered the most, the teenagers and young adults.

[00:45:48] Joseph: Now, the Shopify has upgraded to version 2.0, we needed to make sure we were up to speed. So we've released the version 4.0 to ensure that we're 100% equipped to take advantage of the 2.0 revolution. If you haven't upgraded your store, head on over, and if you haven't gotten started, now is a good time as any.

So to tie this back into, into, into business, you know, um, seemingly every brand over the last year has in some way, shape or form commented on this. And, you know, in, in, in spite of this, uh, hyper isolation, you know, the most common term is like, you know, we're all in this together. Or, you know, we'll w we're all going to do this together.

Um, it's a lot of messaging on, on unity. And to me consistently came across as disingenuous. It's like, okay, well, they have to say it because if they don't say it there, it's like, it's like social inflation. Like if they don't say it, then they're, they're valued decays because they're not keeping up with the, the, the, the rate of everybody else saying it.

Um, and they in, in a social Overton window. And so from your point of view, have you, I, I don't know exactly how often, you know, you're interacting with the different brands and businesses on a day-to-day basis at this point, but from your point of view, uh, have you found any businesses have actually. Cut through the disingenuous side of it and has actually find ways to, um, improve the social situation and help, um, keep people connected in a more meaningful way.

[00:47:13] Tim Ash: No, and I haven't, and that's not their job. And, and again, that's the problem is that businesses are there to make money. Social good organizations are there to. Thanks the help, their particular tribe, you know, your, your church or your synagogue, or what have you. Um, and government is, has stepped back for 40 years.

We've been dismantling anything at the federal level and a lot at the state level, too, that we're used to be support systems for people. Uh, so we're, we're kind of thrown under the wolves and there's nobody in the stop gap and you put a crisis like this, and it's very brittle stuff starts breaking. So you have a huge spikes in crime and domestic violence and suicide and depression.

Uh, and that's just the price we're paying for how we structured this society, I believe, but no business. Hasn't done a good job in other than PR lip service. There's nothing coming out of them.

[00:48:05] Joseph: I mean, that's, what's the, the finality on that. I didn't know, but I was certainly happy to ask that one. We're about to 10 minutes until we hit the hour mark it just so I know, like how long can I keep you a little bit longer? Okay, cool. So here's one that I've really wanted to ask you. This is, this is kind of this own theory that I'm, that I'm working on. If you look at the generational life expectancy, um, there is a pretty significant increase and it is not that long ago.

There were, I would say a few generations past, you know, the life expectancy, you know, you get to the fifties sixties prior to that, by the time by 30, they have 12 kids and they're fighting bears. But now if people are being, being born today, they have the prospect of living upward. So 150, 200. Well, that's news to me, but I'll take your word for it.

Maybe not 200, but certainly life expectancy can be a lot longer. So the realistically let's say, you know, 9,000 consistently, I think that's, I think that's fair, realistic contending with, I think a new kind of anxiety that is unprecedented because what I'm finding, and this is my own experience, too. You know, being a, being a millennial is the, the milestones haven't changed, but the time it takes to you, those milestones does that, that mental maturity to reach more of the, um, the, the adult level.

Um, to me, I don't know, I'm, I, I compare my third is not really to my dad's early twenties. Uh, finally, you know, at that at both, both of our points were finally like independent are starting to, to, to earn our own. Uh, you know, uh, earner on enough income self-sustaining incomes, have you observed any, um, changes in the, uh, in the physiology of the human mind, based off the fact that you know, that people have a much more anxious future to look forward to? 

[00:49:53] Tim Ash: I would say this from an evolutionary perspective, even though one sense, we're like a, that proverbial insect frozen in Amber in our minds, not really changing, it's just not for the foreseeable future. At the same time, the rate of evolution actually has increased over the last 50,000 years. And there's a kind of a speeding up of human beings, specifically, not all life.

Um, and I think that if you look at IQ measurements, people are getting. Every generation and there, there hasn't been any break in that at all. So when you used to be a a hundred average IQ, 50 years ago, that's going to be kind of more on level these days. Uh, that's certainly true. You know, my kids, their fluency with technology and the speed with which they can assimilate information in real time and video and streaming form is just uncanny.

Um, so I play, um, we're, uh, or boggle, which is kinda like a word, uh, find your game and so I play with my wife when we do all right. She usually beats me, but our 14 year old daughter who's played think is called, uh, what was like word scramble or something like that, where you do it on your phone?

Uh, her scores are usually more than my wife's and I combined when the three of us are playing. So it's just, it's not fair. We need some kind of handicap. So there's certainly, there's, there's a quickening of, of that intelligence. I would say. That's, that's one thing. 

[00:51:17] Joseph: With your, with your expertise, uh, at your disposal and your educational background, um, you know, one thing I'm wondering as we, as we get close to wrapping this up is, um, w you know, what drove you into the digital marketing for this? You know, I was there other, um, verticals that you could have taken up? 

[00:51:35] Tim Ash: Um, I'm a bit older than you. I'm not a millennial, I'm a gen X-er. And, uh, so for me, it was like and I was preparing for a career that didn't exist when I went to college. And again, I had computer engineering and cognitive sciences, a background, well, that's both the kinda the quantifiable and the, uh, the, the quality quality stuff and the quantity stuff put together.

It was a perfect background for internet marketing. So when the internet started, you know, the, the consumer internet in the mid nineties started taking off. I jumped in at the beginning of the internet era and started my first agency. So it was a perfect preparation for that career. I guess I, you could say couldn't have done better.

I just didn't know what the career would be, and now I've kind of come full circle. Yeah. I applied it to marketing. As I mentioned, I made 1.2 billion undocumented value for our clients during my agency days, but now I'm more concerned with the universal stuff, more durable stuff, as I mentioned, which is why I've shifted gears to the evolutionary psychology. I think it's a huge source of insight for both professional, cultural and personal development. So I don't know if that answers it. 

[00:52:43] Joseph: I mean, the one thing that, uh, I guess I, I love to get your take on it as well, just to extract from that as well is, you know, you were, you were there in the trenches during the, you know, the.com bubble and the doc and the burst.

I, I just, I'm just fascinated to hear about, you know, what was your. Uh, what was your experience of the journey from it? Yeah. 

[00:53:01] Tim Ash: Yeah, the journey was like this. I started my first, uh, essentially dotcom incubator in the mid nineties and we help launch new dot comes are acting CTO on their management teams, help them for raised first rounds.

It was still a cottage industry back then. Wrote some of the first dynamic database driven websites, uh, for a variety of verticals and then moved into marketing those in the form of pay-per-click marketing. And the early days, again, a company called goto.com that became overture that became beyond search.

Um, but basically PPC as that was just starting out. And, um, what we found is that we're driving high quality traffic from our PPC campaigns, but it wasn't converting and. Yeah. So we got into affiliate marketing and started doing PPC arbitrage for on a performance basis, but traffic was quality where we were sending it to was crap.

And so I saw the bigger opportunity as being the website and the quality of the website, and that's how we got into and became one of the premier agencies. And what's now known as conversion rate optimization, improving website experiences. Um, so it was kind of became the tail, wagging the dog. We sold off our PPC management and our, uh, super affiliate side and just focused on improving web experiences.

So that that's kind of the, the arc of my internet marketing career. 

[00:54:23] Joseph: And, uh, and, and I did say that I was going to ask about landing pages. So I'm just going to make sure I get this question in before we, before we wrap up, um, which is you know, you've seen, um, um, quite, uh, quite a few of them. And you've certainly seen ones that have, um, uh, that, that are from conventional brands that, you know, most of us think of off the top of our heads.

So what have been the consistent things, um, positive and negative that, uh, have made landing pages. I mean I'm good or frankly.

[00:54:52] Tim Ash: I'll tell you some, some common problems with landing pages. I'll just do them rapid fire. First of all, as I mentioned earlier, I think most of us suffer from greedy marketer syndrome, which means we want to squeeze the bottom of the sales funnel and hope money comes out.

Uh, so we don't really support the whole customer journey. And we should, if you actually have an advantage, if you start a conversation with me early in the customer journey, before you can sell me anything, because you become the exclusive source of information for me. So if you have the right to communicate with me, that's very powerful.

So I think design stuff for the complete customer journey instead of bottom feeding at the point of sale is really, really important. So content marketing is a big part of that, but I don't mean blog posts or frequent tweets. I mean like durable, downloadable stuff or informational videos that are wrapped right into your web experience and have a big effect.

And that also includes email followup sequences that are, non-promotional a better, more educational in nature as you work people down the funnel. So, so that's, that's one aspect is, um, supporting the complete customer journey is often very much missing on websites. Um, another thing that companies get wrong is they think that they should be selling sunshine and unicorns.

They're positive, you know, our service or product is the greatest thing since sliced bread. Well, and you should buy it because you'll have whiter teeth and fresh breath and, you know, Mary a good-looking spouse. Well, you know, really from an evolutionary psychologist standpoint, we should be talking a lot about the negatives to get me off my comfortable spot, to get me to make any kind of decision.

I can't be satisfied. I have to feel a lot of pain and the bigger that pain. The more value I assigned to the solution that literally means monetary value. So just like they say in the workout world, no pain, no gain. If you can't create a pain in me, you're not going to gain or benefit from it. So the proper way to market is to take me off of my comfortable spot in the middle, drive me down into the depths of hell and despair, and then back out into the light and show me what life is like in heaven.

And that contrast between heaven and hell. If you will, is the value I'm in a place on your solution. So don't start talking to me about how wonderful life is. Talk to me about my problems and rub salt into the wound. 

[00:57:10] Joseph: That makes sense. I mean, if somebody, if somebody happens to be in a positive state of mind and they just need more positivity, they just say, yeah, that's great. And then they move on. 

[00:57:18] Tim Ash: Exactly. They don't feel the need to change pain is the teacher pain is the thing that motivates us to do something about this unpleasant situation we're in. And the longer term you make that the more you dig at the underlying implications of that, the full cost of staying on the career path, that it's really not okay.

That's where you start. So for example, if you're selling tooth whitening, some people would say, oh, you'll have whiter teeth and a great smile. And that's how a lot of commercials on TV are. I would go with this. Are those yellow, gray is yellow teeth, uh, making you embarrassed in social situations. Do people think you have resting bastard face?

Are you having problems getting a date because you never smile. Are you going to die alone? And your cats are going to eat you because no, one's checking up on you and they're starving. That's, that's how you sell tooth whitening. And a lot of companies say that's off brand for us. We, we, we never say mean things.

We don't even worry about our competitors or we never even compared to what it's like, not having our product or service. I think that's fighting with one hand tied behind your back, or actually both hands. 

[00:58:24] Joseph: I got to say the way you contextualize it is unlike anyone else, uh, means re-contextualizing it a heck of a takeaway to wrap this bad boy up.

So, uh, let's do that. Again, it's been great to meet you. It's been great to talk to you. I hope, you know, some, uh, at some point down the line, I get to get another chance, uh, to follow up on some of the threads that we unraveled today. Um, you know, cause I think for me, you know, I, I do the show. I was like, you know, I like debating preferably I like, you know, knowing what I'm talking about, but I don't always have that luxury.

So, you know, but to want to like, you know, turn it into a debate for the entirety of the episode is like, no, I still got, I still got my obligations to do for, uh, for the company and to, and my lovely audience who come here. Um, well, yeah, they have had the economics, the experience. So all of that out of my system, I just wanted to say, thanks.

This has been a fantastic episode. I'm really happy to share an hour with you today. 

[00:59:18] Tim Ash: And if people want more information about my background or how I can help, uh, with e-commerce consulting, just go to timash.com. And if you're interested in my book, unleash your primal brain, demystifying how we think and why we act, just go to primalbrain.com.

In fact, you can go to primalbrain.com and pick a chapter out of the table of contents. And I'll send you the chapter of your choice as a PDF. 

[00:59:44] Joseph: Okay, fantastic. I think I might just do that myself. All right. Well, uh, that actually was the, you know, the, the second half of the final question and just to let the audience know how they can make contact, the other part of it, just for the fun of it, if a, has any last bits of wisdom or like a Chinese proverb, you enjoy sharing.

You're more than welcome to, but otherwise, uh, we are good to go.

[01:00:02] Tim Ash: I'd say, um, we, we touched on sleep earlier, go to sleep, put your phone in another room. Don't sleep in the same room with your phone. 

[01:00:12] Joseph: Yeah, I get it. Get an alarm clock people. I've had an alarm clock for the last few months because the difference between having to actually turn on my phone in the morning is just enough to kind of like resist getting into that bad habit stack.

So, uh, I, uh, I'm, I'm totally on board with that. All right. To my audience is always, it is an honor and a privilege to take like this information. Do I use it for my own benefit? You bet. And share it with all of you. So one more. Thank you to Tim Ash for the roads. Thank you, sir. Same here.

All right, everybody else take care. And we will check in soon.

Thanks for listening. You might've found this show on many number of platforms, Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google play, Stitcher, or right here on the beat. Whatever the case. If you enjoy this content and want to help us thrive, please take a few moments to leave a review on apple podcasts or wherever you think is best.

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Finally, this podcast is created by the passionate team at Debutify. If you're ready to take the plunge into e-commerce or are looking to up your game, head over to debutify.com and see how it can change your life and the lives of many through what you do next.

Written by

Joseph Ianni

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