Influencers of varying scale have become a burgeoning subject on the program as of late and I'm not surprised. As advertising becomes harder and more expensive, it's forced sellers to rethink how to use it effectively, especially for new and upcoming brands. This is where influencer marketing becomes pivotal to success as growing brands can align themselves with people trying to grow on their own platforms as well. Enter Social Media College and my guest, CEO and founder Jonathon Tanner, like how influencers can vary in terms of scale, so to can this revolutionary educational program find various methods to share it's knowledge with others.
Jonathon Tanner is a highly motivated and successful CEO, entrepreneur and strategy consultant with a passion for emerging technologies and a track record of delivering results. He has an extensive training and nine years experience as a strategy consultant specializing in growth strategy, mergers and acquisitions and operational improvement.
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[00:00:00] Jonathon Tanner: Yeah, it was really, really exciting to, I guess, be at the forefront of the industry and, you know, back then it was about convincing people why they should be on social media, why it's such a great place to market and advertise their business. Nowadays, you know, things have changed. Of course people understand the power of social media and why it's such a critical part on any, any media plan.
[00:00:28] Joseph: Influencer as a varying scale, have become a burgeoning subject on the program as of late and I'm not surprised. As advertising becomes harder and more expensive, it's for sellers to rethink how to use it effectively, especially for new and upcoming brands. This is where a subject like influencer marketing becomes pivotal to success as growing brands can align themselves with people are trying to grow their own platforms as well. Enter social media college, and my guest, CEO and founder, Jonathon Tanner. Micro influencers can vary in terms of scale, so too can this revolutionary educational program find various methods to share his knowledge with others. One such method, having him on the program today. Enjoy.
Jonathon Tanner. It is great to have you here on Ecomonics. How are you doing today? How are you feeling?
[00:01:08] Jonathon Tanner: Great to be here. It's really exciting to have a chat with you.
[00:01:12] Joseph: It's great to have you here. I was workshopping different ways to introduce the show. Today was supposed to be the first day of it. Cause I realized, as I asked to fill out how they're doing, how they're feeling, I'd already asked that before I turn on the recording. So I was trying to think of some way to keep the redundancy down and I did not succeed in that. So that is my meta analysis for the day. So Jonathon Tanner, first question that I'm going to post to you to get the ball rolling is for you to tell us what you do and what are you up to these days.
[00:01:42] Jonathon Tanner: Yeah, sure. So I'm the CEO and co-founder of a business called social media college and we're based out of Sydney, Australia. And we are exactly that, whereas school that educates people on how to use social media marketing to grow their business. And we've been around now for about six or seven years. So we've been in the market for quite some time.
And since then, we've really kind of expanded all of the different courses that we offer and really kind of expanded who it is that we teach. And some of the courses, a lot of the courses are delivered through our partner, universities and colleges, but also we do a ton of stuff direct to students as well.
[00:02:22] Joseph: I'm gonna make sure I put a note for that as well. It just to follow up on the relationships between you know, your school which I'm assuming it's a college school. And then the relationship with the other universities, that's a fascinating aspect in of itself. But the first thing that sticks out to me is that this is really the first formal qualification anybody, anywhere in the world can get a degree in social media that am I getting that right?
[00:02:47] Jonathon Tanner: Yeah. So, well, that's I guess the first product is we call them now because we have a pretty wide sweep, but . The first, yeah, the first course that we developed was the diploma of social media marketing.
So in Australia, What they allow private companies to do is actually go on a credit courses in new and emerging areas that the government itself is not yet covering. And because of the rate of change that's occurring in the economy, you know, we identified that social media in particular was under addressed.
And so we went and we accredited the diploma of social media marketing, and it sort of operates a little bit like a patent. It's a five-year patent, it's a rolling five-year patent. So every five years we need to go and resubmit to the government to get reaccredited, which we just recently did. And with that particular course, the diploma.
Yeah, it was, you know, the first and only formal qualification in social media marketing in Australia. And at the time that we first accredited, we haven't done the analysis for a while. The time that we first accredited, we couldn't actually find any other formal qualification anywhere in the world that did the same.
Um, so yeah, it was really, really exciting to, I guess, be at the forefront of the industry and, you know, back then it was about convincing people, why they should be on social media, why that, why it's such a great place to market and advertise their business. Nowadays, you know, things have changed. Of course people understand the power of social media and why it's such a critical part of any media plan. And you know, now it's really about making sure that we keep the course content as up to date as possible, which is a huge challenge for us given the rate of change that there is. But yeah, so with that particular course, the diploma, that's the one. We in most cases, we go and partner with colleges, they're called registered training organizations here in Australia colleges, essentially.
And some of those colleges are feeder colleges into universities as well, which is really, really exciting to work with some of the universities. And the way that works is, we take, we provide them with the course, but we give it it's we sort of call it like a turnkey solution. You know, typically some of the more established colleges out there they're just not great at innovation.
They're also, you know, why they are. And look, they admit it as well. You know, they're the first ones to admit it. And so we come in, we give them this, you know, solution that really is, it makes it really, really easy to deliver this course. And then we support them with sales and marketing as well.
And it's a business model that's really resonated with all of our partners. And then over time what's happened is we've now started expanding into short courses. So non-accredited courses more focused on particular topic areas like LinkedIn marketing or Facebook advertising or Instagram marketing, whatever it is.
And now what we're finding is that's a lot of those partners now are, are adopting those courses as well. So yeah, it's been in the past.
[00:05:36] Joseph: Yeah, there was definitely a distinction there that I wanted to make sure that I got, which was whether all of the services or that I see another website were all commensurate with the diploma or the diploma was a separate thing.
And then you can take all the additional courses. So that's one thing I wanted to clear up and make sure it's also fair for my audience as well. And then in the midst of that, you know, the journey of getting this accredited was also something that, you know, you're describing.
And I guess I was imagining that there were as much more of an adventure to it, where there was an area where you have to really prove and validate that this course has enough value and enough impact in not, you know, in society and business and culturally to raise itself to the point of credit accreditation.
So what was your pitch when you were describing this and you know, what information were you using? What data did you have on hand to say, look, this is something that needs to have the accreditation for it?
[00:06:33] Jonathon Tanner: Yeah. I probably massively over simplified the process that we had to go through the first time around.
And it was that, you know, it was looking at as many different data points as we possibly could to try and justify why we felt that there was a need for a formal qualification in this area. So at the time it was going back a few years at the time, you know, we were looking at, you know, growth of revenue, even if some of the social media platforms to say, hey, look at how much money is pouring into the ad platforms of these guys, but also growth in number of users, time spent on social media as well, engagement levels, et cetera.
And so we, you know, we had to work really, really hard to demonstrate to the Australian government, why there was a need for this formal qualification. Second time round, all we had to do was put the enrollment data in front of them. I think now we're up to something like 5,000 enrollments in the diploma overall, which is incredible number.
When you think about, you know, 5,000 people that we've been able to impact with this, just with that qualification, let alone some of the other short courses that we have. And I think when the second time round, when they saw the volume and the demand that there was for this particular area, I think it was a bit of a no brainer to re accredit us the second.
[00:07:50] Joseph: Yeah. I think one thing that comes to mind is the, you know, the stigma attached to what one might consider to be a social media user. Obviously, you know, millennials, pre millennials, post millennials, for one, and I think social, beyond that, I think social media for a long time, it doesn't really have it anymore, but for a long time, it did have an insider's club feel to it.
Like the only people on Twitter was, you know, insular group same, same would go for well, Tumblr not so much. For me, Twitter was really the one that sticks out. But that is just not the case at this point. At this point, social media is it's embedded in each person's life is not to the extent of, oh, I'm building a brand and I havemy Twitter routine and I haven't followed was an Instagram, but even something as simple as, you know, grandma was about the cookies that she baked to come up with the most pedestrian analogy that I can, it's all over. It's hard to imagine anywhere that has escaped that that does not also escaped the digital world altogether.
[00:08:50] Jonathon Tanner: Absolutely. I mean, I think you've only got to look at the usage statistics. I think we're now it's over a third of the world's population is now an active social media user. You know, they're using it actively every, every single week. And you know, the numbers just keep climbing Facebook numbers, just keep climbing.
If you look at the baby boomers, you know, that generation they're the most fastest growing and most active on that. So it's certainly has gone mainstream. We're now looking at penetration into all age demographics, and I think most people understand now. It's here to stay. It's not going anywhere. And if people are spending a bunch of their time on social media, then obviously it's a good place for brands to, to be active and have a really, really big.
[00:09:33] Joseph: So the other thing that I made a note of earlier was just about, you know, working with other schools. So from the perspective of a student and regardless of what I'm enrolled in, I mean, there's different degrees of how I think relevant social media is, you know, I'm just gonna take a shot in the dark and say, somebody who's focused on, you know, engineering probably isn't on social media, as much as maybe somebody who's, you know, in athletics or really anything more, more public facing.
So all of that aside, how does a person, you know, discover the program and, you know, and sign up for that and what are the, what do they get out of it while also balancing their own course load?
[00:10:12] Jonathon Tanner: So I like to think about the education market in two ways, and it's a really simple model, but it kind of makes sense that there's a proportion of the market out there who undertakes a study to signal to a prospective employer, that they have a certain skillset and that they, therefore, you know, worthy of a particular job.
So the diploma product in particular is focused on those people that are, are looking for either a career change or they're looking to do. Kickstart their career, because in getting that piece of paper, you know, that formal qualification, it's a signal to employers that they are equipped to do the job well on the other side, you know, and, and really this is the big trend that we've seen in the education market over the last two or three years, is this kind of move away, actually move away from formal qualifications for a lot of people that traditionally would do them towards what we call short courses.
Right. And we short courses, unlike formal qualifications, which are about signaling short courses are about skills, right? So you've got signal versus skills. Skills is like, look, I don't know, the piece of paper, you know, what I really, really need is rapid up-skilling, you know, the, again, I already flagged this, you know, we're saying just this incredible amount of change in the economy, and it's so rapid that people just don't have time.
And one of the challenges of the diploma product is it's a nine to 12 month course. And, you know, we are our best-selling, non award program, short courses is called the social media marketing intensive. And what we really did is we kind of compressed the diploma into this nine week program and we delivered it, delivered it, you know, very differently.
We do, you know, for four and a half hours of pre-recorded video content. And then this live session on zoom with all the other students in the intake, we put them into WhatsApp and they're doing activities together. So this concept of social learning and accountability, and it's been able to achieve really, really high completion rates, unlike other online self-paced courses, which have around, you know, sub 10% is one of those things where people really want change.
You know, it's education is often one of those things that you keep trying to get to at the end of the day, and you never ended up getting there. And that's why, you know,, the first generator we call it kind of online education. 1.0 was really about this online self-paced courses where you, you know, you come in and it's a little bit lonely, you know, it's up to you, you kind of in there, it's just you and the computer screen, and you've got to work through the content at your own pace.
We kind of do things, you know, quite differently in that regard, but yeah, there's definitely kind of two parts of the market. You know, there's the skills, which is like, teach me as quickly as you can, but without compromising on content, you know, what you need to learn. And then there's the signal side of the market. That's the best way to, I guess, describe it.
[00:12:54] Joseph: That's actually the first time and you know, I've been through college and that's the first time that somebody has made a distinction between the two, because while it's always a can of worms, when I bring it up, because the thing is people that you'll understand why I stumbled over this, as I say it.
But, you know, growing up, I was big into comedy. I watched a lot of comedy on TV. I didn't know exactly where I wanted to go with comedy, but I knew I wanted to do it in some way, shape or form. And here in Toronto we have a comedy program and I was like, well, is that our journalism? I can't believe journalism even had a chance, honestly.
So I go to the comedy program and I, and I get it and I get a degree for it. And, and they tell you pretty much day one, look, this degree doesn't mean. So we were like, all right, well, fair enough. But there was still, there was a skills development in it. There was the, the social aspect and what I appreciated about it in particular was it was like a microcosm for the industry.
You got to experience the politics of it. You know, the, the infighting, all of the, all the personal stuff that also comes along with an industry, as professional as we may be, we are still people. And then you get out of college and then you, you know, face the real world. And it really does all of a sudden the scale of it suddenly becomes a lot more digestible.
It's like, oh, wow, there really is just a two year microcosm. So that's to be kind of like an unloading about the, about my own experience there, just so people understand and kind of like where I come from with these questions. What I, what I'd like to hear about is, you know, what weight you want to see the degree hold in.
You know, maybe in like, you know, 5 years down the line, 10 years down the line, the way you want to see it do to help continue to legitimize. And, you know, social media is not just, it's something for fun, but really something that businesses have come to rely on to make the difference between a successful business and a failure.
[00:14:48] Jonathon Tanner: I think there was people I remember four or five years ago that were calling the downfall of university and the end of people. People doing formal qualifications. I think that's clearly not the case. I think that there's always going to be a place for them, particularly, you know, those people that are making a substantial career change or for professions that require it, I think is one big thing or for you know, school leavers, like people coming through.
What we're seeing though, the interesting trend is this concept of, of micro-credentials and what a micro-credential is taking what was a big, chunky, expensive bachelor program and kind of breaking it down into smaller chunks that allows someone to really kind of, you remember those books. I was probably showing my age now, you know, the choose your own adventure books.
[00:15:39] Joseph: I've done a couple of those. Yep. Yep. Choose your own adventure book where every choice led to some sort of brutal murder. Yeah, I remember.
[00:15:46] Jonathon Tanner: Correct. You know, and you could say, you know, if you choose this, you go to page 40 of you choose that you're going to page 32. Right. So I think that's what's kind of happening now.
And universities are starting to become a lot more open to different models, you know, and we're chatting with a bunch of them about this kind of bootcamp concept where, you know, people come in and they do like three months full-time and they don't necessarily get a qualification, but they study with the university.
So it's like a non award, not award kind of certificate of completion from an awarding university. So I think there's just a myriad of models that are emerging and, you know, it's a really, really exciting space. I think that. You know what we're going to see over the next 5, 10, 20 years is it's just going to be a whole bunch of displacement where existing roles and industries is way outside of social media.
You know, obviously we're in a, we're in a fun and exciting and dynamic space. One of the, probably the most challenging aspect of our business is trying to keep up with all the, the rate of change. But if you look more broadly at the education market, I think that, yeah, the degree of displacement and upskilling that's going to be required as a result is huge.
And so I think, yeah, education is a really nice space to be.
[00:17:10] Joseph: You know, you've touched on, you know, the challenge of how rapidly the industry evolves and how that reflects. What material you want to convey to the students? What I appreciate this is to me, it was something that I appreciated a great deal in college myself too, was that all of my professors, and I don't think there was an exception.
All of my professors were also active participants in the industry. And that I think is a pretty significant benefit to being in these programs to, you know, one day they're a teacher and then someday down the line, they could be a colleague or even a peer. And that to me is a source of inspiration given how quickly things can change in the courses that your school is running. So how are the faculty doing, how are they staying informed and, you know, deciding what alterations to make to the program?
[00:18:05] Jonathon Tanner: Yeah. So we traditionally use what we coined as a SME, as subject matter experts. So we would try to partner up with someone who already has a lot of success in a particular area.
Like the guy we're working with, in Australia, He's the number one LinkedIn marketer with some awards that are social media awards that are given out, he's won it last two years. The third time round,. He runs a LinkedIn marketing agency and he has, you know, 20 top tier clients.
So you look at this guy and you go, why he's at the top of his game and whatever he's doing, we need to kind of tap into his brain and work it out and get it, get it on paper and, you know, get it into a course. Right. And you know, there's the contents. One thing, I mean, we like to think about that as the meal, right?
So the content is the meal, but when you go into a restaurant, it's not just the meal that you think about to assess whether or not you enjoyed the restaurant, it's the whole dining experience, right? It's the grading that you get when you first come to the door, it's the smells, it's the music playing, it's the lighting, you know, it's this customer service, right?
So there's a lot more that goes into a course beyond just the content that's in there. There's, there's the whole experience with it. And a lot of it, you know, is kind of tapping into that research around what, the way in which you can deliver a course to maximize output and maximize kind of mental retention because and a lot of that is quite tactical in nature.
You know,there's certain things that like, just getting people into the habit of, if they're watching a, of course video to write notes, right? And so the research is clear that when you write things down, then you mentioned retention, skyrockets. Similarly, we try and get people to do, we have a whole bunch of let's talk activities where they have to discuss what they've just learned or do some type of activity.
Let's do it. Right? So we, we have different kind of points at which we jump in and say, okay, it's time to actually apply the learning again. You know, you mentioned the attention will skyrocket. So, so I think when it comes to keeping these courses updated,there's the element of keeping the social media assets, social media content updated, but then there's also making sure that you're constantly looking at all the trends that are occurring in learning design to make sure that the courses are updated in that regard as well. What's happening I think interestingly as we've evolved in the businesses got bigger and the teams got larger and, you know, I've had a lot of cases. I was, I was always the person, you know, doing a lot of the courses, myself being that social media expert, I had to kind of gradually step back from that and, you know, push a lot of that onto the team so I can, you know, manage the growth of the business.
More and more now we're actually bringing that expertise in house. You know, we've identified that, you know, we actually are best placed to do a lot of that desk research ourselves, and also learn from the experiences of our students. So that's always a really, really big thing, you know, when you're getting. We now do a lot of coaching with our social media marketing intensive program. And there's a daily group coaching calls, you know, when someone enrolls, they get coaching for a full year walk so that we help them with implementation and you learn like you learn what challenges they're facing. And we're like, okay, well, we need to add, in course, content that helps people to address that particular challenge.
Or we need a template or we need a checklist, or we need a calculator. You know, we need some type of tool that assists them with the challenges advising you and you pick up these trends. Right? So that's, I guess one of the advantages that we've had from being. SMEs still have a role. Like we still want to work with people and tap into it, but there's so much more to it.
Now there's a desk research and unfortunately we're in a space where. You know, you've got so many softwares, social media softwares that are just so heavily do off on venture capital, that the content that they're creating is amazing. But you know, part of that it's quite piecemeal and a lot of people will come to us and say like, you know, I subscribe to this blog and this blog and this blog and, you know, there's, the content is great, but I still can't work out what I need, what do I need to do in my particular business size and my particular industry and so forth.
So a lot of that is kind of looking at the research that gets published also really following some of the content that the social media platforms are doing. You know, Facebook's got Facebook blueprint, which is great. They've got the creators account on Instagram. Adam Maseri is the head of Instagram. He publishes a lot of great content, you know, his Instagram profile.
So it's just knowing for each of the different social media platforms. What, you know, what are they publishing? What content are they creating and putting out and making sure that that finds its way into the hands of the students that study.
[00:22:50] Joseph: And then a couple of things that suck out a chief among them is also, I think, given the material that you teach, there's you know, a heightened dependence on its efficacy because you also use it to promote your business.
I keep coming back to engineering just because, well, I have a friend who's an engineer. And so, you know, there's that, but I always, it's always, it's fun. It's fun to me to compare and contrast, you know,, different courses and the dependency that they have on their own, on the survival of their course, and based on the material they're teaching, you know, and you don't want good engineers to come out of the engineering program, but engineering is, you know, is they're using word of mouth, they're using a completely different skillset in order to promote their program. Obviously being good engineers makes it. Just to show all my understanding of it. My goodness. I should have picked something in the arts to make a comparison. Anyways.
So I'd like to hear your commentary on, you know, your own need to use what you're teaching for the good of your own of your own business to, to show that not only can we teach this, we also practice what we preach. And I think in your case, you have to.
[00:23:59] Jonathon Tanner: Yeah. It's, it's definitely something. We are active on social media, or if we are investing in paid social media, advertising formats, if we are actively emailing to our database, if we are doing all of those things that we promote in our course, then of course, that is going to make us a better educator, but it's not necessarily essential.
Right? So if you look at, and part of, I think the evolution of our businesses realizing that the social media game has changed that the old days where you used to have as many social media logos, as you possibly could on the bottom of your website is no longer kind of really relevant. What we preach really is that you want to choose one or two platforms and nail those and get as much efficacy as you can out of them.
As opposed to spreading yourself too thinly across lots of platforms. And if I look at the evolution of our business, you know, we started really, really aggressively on Instagram back in the day when you could actually get some pretty good results from you, you know, using it organically. But over time we've actually transitioned more towards paid advertising formats and that's part of the process that every business goes through from startup to growth to scale is that, you know, over time you want to actually start adopting the paid advertising formats and rely less on organic or organic changes. You know, organic becomes about more about branding and conversion and less about lead generation or direct, you know, driving of traffic.
And that's kind of the phase that we're in, but, you know, a lot of our students are in that startup or scale phase, startup or growth phase. And for them, you know, they don't have a budget to invest in paid ads. And so for them, they have to use organic to so therefore,you know, generate the traffic in the leads that they need to.
And one of the key personas that we work with, one of the key, you know, types of students that we have are social media agencies or social media freelances. And for them, you know, a common mistake that we see is that they think that, okay, I'm going out there and I'm helping say e-commerce businesses with their Instagram organic marketing, for example.
And therefore they think because they're providing their clients with help on Instagram, organic that therefore they need to promote their own business using. Instagram organic. And I'm like, no, like don't do that because you're going to get judged on like how you, you're a B2B business. You're trying to target other business owners and you should be on LinkedIn.
And that's where all your focus should be is prospecting and creating content on LinkedIn. And the percentage of people that actually post content to LinkedIn is quite low. So as a B2B business, you can get amazing organic traction on LinkedIn. You don't need to be on Instagram. They're like, oh, but won't, they want to look at my Instagram account to demonstrate my expertise.
And I'm like, show them one of your client's accounts. Like show them, you know, show them your expertise to prospective clients on one of your existing clients, because they're in the same industry. And you know, that you'll be able to kind of demonstrate your expertise in that particular way. So, yeah, I think just because coming back to your original question, just because, you know, with we are social media college. I sort of say to the team, I don't think we need to have this ridiculously large presence across all the different social media platforms. I remember for us, it's all about, it's all about YouTube. You know, YouTube and email marketing really for us is just a huge focus area.
And we're getting some incredible results out of that. And also out of SEO, you know, which is outside of social media, we're in a fortunate position now where we can invest a lot into SEO by that that's taken us, you know, two or three years to get there. And then of course, you know, you've got the paid Facebook ads, which are a staple in the budget.
[00:27:53] Joseph: What I appreciate about this is I think it's important for people to consider that this is a pretty optimal flow from, you know, your organic marketing strategy into paid advertising.
Because if I were to, and I very nearly did jump directly from setting up my business and then just going right into paid ads, not having a social media presence is a pretty significant disadvantage. I would say that the expectation that the general consumer has set is you got to have something. You have a have a Twitter feed, have a Facebook group, have some means to know that I'm buying from another person.
I don't think it's really a viable anymore? I'm interested in being proven wrong about this, either by yourself or if anybody wants to email podcast@debutify.Com. Let me know if I'm wrong, but I think you pretty much have to have your organic side fleshed out before you move on to paid ads.
And even if it's not . Necessary, you probably should anyways, because it's just enhancing a lot more of that traffic and your conversions are going to be better because they're not going right to a landing page. And, you know, being asked to convert in the first 10 seconds.
[00:29:00] Jonathon Tanner: Yeah. Look, there's definitely a Facebook page, right?
So, I mean, everyone needs a Facebook page. It's a secondary website and you want to show that you're active, that the business is alive, that it's not some grave stone that has had no activity on it for the last two, we call them graveyard graveyard profiles where there's been no activity for two years.
People come to there and they go as a business, must've died. Right? That's not, you don't want to have that. So you need to be posting stuff for your Facebook page, but that's going to be different to your Instagram account. Right? So your Instagram account. You're on your Facebook page, you being more about community building and more about, you know, providing updates about what's happening in your organization and so forth.
Whereas with Instagram, what we promote is that your content really needs to be value adding to people. But you know, Instagram now is there's 200 million Instagram business accounts, right? It has become the barriers to entry are incredibly low. Anyone can go and set up an Instagram business account. And as a result, you may not be competing with this amazing photographer for directly in terms of what you're selling, but you're competing with him or her for the attention of users in the newsfeed. And so that's the kind of mindset that you need to have if you're going to have, you're going to have a presence on a platform. And this comes back to that narrow your focus, like beyond less platforms. And that way you don't need to be on YouTube and Twitter and LinkedIn, all those just be on Facebook and Instagram, or just be on Facebook and YouTube.
Right. Because if you're going to be on a platform, you're going to get judged on that. Like people are going to come and check you out and you know, they come to your Instagram account and because you've only got 30 minutes a week to dedicate to it that you've only been able to collect like 80 followers or something like that.
Like people will judge you, you know, they'll look at that and they'll go, oh, this must not be a very good business. Right? So again, narrow, your focus is probably the best advice I can have and just understand that because it's so competitive you're going to need, and the way the algorithms work, you're going to need kind of every efficiency.
Under the sun, right? So not only does your content need to be super high value and engaging to your audience because that's ultimately what the platforms respond to. You're also going to need to running a business as hard. Like, you know, there's not a lot of time in the day. There's so much to do that.
You don't want to be bogged down. You don't want to be walking around with your smartphone every day, going on, what am I going to post today? Right. You need to bulk produce like a month's worth of . Content or three months worth of content. Schedule it out. We usually using a scheduling tool and then just get on with your life.
You know, it's amazing how many people come to us just in this state of flux and frustration, because they're just like, I don't know what I'm doing wrong. You know, I spend a half an hour, 45 minutes every day doing a post and I'm not getting any engagement from it. And I'm like, stop, like right there.
That's the number one issue you've got is that you're not planning your content. You're not thinking about how do I create this in bulk, and you know, using the scheduling software because you know, algorithms now they're respond to consistency. So you can't have like two or three days off. If you're going to be on a platform, if you choose to be on Instagram, you have to post every single day, like every single day.
And if you don't the out, you just don't get much benefit from the algorithm as a result. So narrow the focus and make sure that what you're doing is you're doing as efficiently as possible is probably the best advice.
[00:32:24] Joseph: And it's good advice, but it's also relieving advice too, the idea of having to hit up every social media platform or for the business to succeed can be off-putting and it could be intimidating, but conversing, specializing, and really understanding which platform is right for the business.
I think the more visual leaning, obviously Instagram is a, is a good place for that B2B, LinkedIn. My question is, and I'm thinking specifically about Facebook for this one, but platforms. I'm sure there's important insights there too. I came up with this in the last episode which was it's called the empty dance floor syndrome where, you know, you have everything set up, but no one is ready to take the first, you know, be the first person on the dance floor.
And the answer that I had gotten from the beavers guests was, you know, eventually somebody, gets the courage to look the fool be in the middle of the dance floor on their own, and other peoples are supporting us. So that was a one answer to it. But, when I'm wondering from your experiences, you know, those initial hurdles to start generating active. To me, especially, it's probably one of the most intimidating things in how to get the momentum going, how to get people to start talking?
[00:33:34] Jonathon Tanner: Yeah. I mean, it's a question we get all the time and usually everyone's going to go through it if you're talking about a Facebook page, for example, you know, I remember when we first started social media colleagues were like, geez, we're social media college talk about being judged on our social media profiles.
We've got zero to people that like our Facebook page, what we did is just actually message like sent direct messages to like, you know, 50 of our closest friends and said, hey, can we just get this page going? You know, from there. And then it was all, you know, that's when the content takes over.
And certainly now, like it's different for every single platform. You know, if you look at, I think everyone needs to understand that there's a bit of a divide between say Pinterest and YouTube and all of the other platforms where it's more of a short-term sugar hit. And what I mean by that is.
With Facebook, Instagram, TiktokS, Snapchat, LinkedIn, like you need to be creating content all the time. Right? You've got to be really, really consistent content, got to add value to your audience. And you just, you know, it's this, you know, a lot of people talk about this content treadmill. It's just like constantly creating content to engage your audience, keep them engaged.
And if you stop, that's when you get penalized. Like if you think of an sorry for I come back, if you think about the other end, you know, if you look at YouTube and Pinterest, they are predominantly search-based social media platforms. And what that means is that people are actually looking for your content.
Like we've got this video up, just, you know, hit a 100k views. We put it up four years ago. Right. And we didn't think it was that good at the time that we put it up. We're still getting comments. We're still getting people viewing that particular video. And it's still now driving traffic. Right. So if you're a business that has the patients, but it's slow, right?
So you post a video and it takes a lot of cases. It takes a long time to get going. And then all of a sudden it can actually hit it's attraction. You know, you tweak the thumbnail to get people to start clicking on it because that recommendation engine that, that YouTube has, and it's similar with Pinterest, right?
So similar Pinterest is predominantly search base. You've got to understand, you've got to get in the mindset of each of these platforms, you know, their businesses, right. And they're designed to sell ads. That's their whole purpose, right. Everything they do ultimately will come back in some way, shape or form to them wanting to sell more ads.
And so how do they sell more ads? They sell more ads. People logging into the app more often. And when they're on the app, people have a really good experience and maybe they have a really, really good experience. It means that they're on the app longer, right? The combination of those two things, people logging into the app more often and being on there longer gives Facebook, LinkedIn, whoever more ad spots, they make more money.
Okay. So what, what these platforms do is they reward people that promote a good experience for their users. So they call them creators or influencer, right? So if you're a, you know, a Facebook creator now, or Instagram creator, what Instagram is doing is that they're providing all of these tools to creators now to help them monetize what they do, because they've realized, Hey, these people are creating lots of really great high quality engaging content, and it's adding to the experience of Instagram users and that helps us sell more ads.
And so there's big trend at the moment across all the different platforms is around. You know, making sure that, that you reward creators for the work that they do. And I think if you understand that, like as a business owner, as a marketer, if you understand that's what you need to do, then certainly if you're playing that organic game in a way, you just need to make sure that you're creating a lot of content on a consistent basis and adding to the experience of users on there, and the algorithm will reward you for that.
That's how, that's how they promote it. The number one way is to actually give you more rates. That's what the algorithm does is it provides you, it shows your content to more people and therefore you get free marketing off the bat.
[00:37:28] Joseph: Yeah, one thing I liked going on, what happens on YouTube is, you know, just random videos will pop up and I'll click on and it's like, and then everybody in the common saying, well, that looks like the algorithm gods have a United us on this fine day.
Good day to all of you gentlemen, just a thousand people all say, yeah, yeah, yeah. Algorithm brought me here. So it's certainly a real thing for sure.
[00:37:46] Jonathon Tanner: It's interesting. Like I, you know, I think that that's the other big trends at the moment is just around these recommendation engines. And then I really started, I mean, I personally, I think YouTube is the best, but it's amazing how many times you go on and you search for something, you know, how do I schedule an Instagram posts?
And then 45 minutes later, you're watching a giraffe video. Right? So it just has this element of, of being really, really good at it. And then I think detox taking the engineers is fantastic, right? It's just, you know, people are on there and you can see that it, they just roll through these videos. And they're really, really good at suggesting additional content.
And you've seen now Instagram. Is on notice, you know, it ticked off, grew from 50 billion users to, sorry, 50 million users to a billion users in about two years and took Instagram 10 years to get there. So Instagram kind of horridly released reels. Now reels is something that's really, really growing strongly, but they're, they're giving more reach to users who are using Instagram users who are using reels because they're trying to blunt the growth of TikTok, right?
They're trying to slow down TikTok because they see them as a big competitive threat. And you can him for the first time, you know, they're talking about how they see Tiktok as this big threat in the industry. Now you choose relates to YouTube shorts, which is another TiktoK. LinkedIn's talking about releasing a short form, vertical, mobile feature as well.
And so I think whenever these new features. Certainly one, one piece of advice we always have for people is whenever these new features come up by a particular social media platform, jump on board because typically they, the Instagram or the other social media platforms, they will encourage people to use those new features by giving them more reach. And so at the moment, it's certainly, you know, with real, as you're saying really, really good rates, and they've actually turned it down a little bit on the, on the feed post.
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I think this is actually one of the shortest questions I've ever written on the program, which was like, what was your take on YouTube shorts? So when you see a feature like that, I did the first thing that came to my mind is I see they've also recognize and acknowledge the impending dominance of TikTok.
So it was like, well, I guess we're going to have to do this, do it too. And I don't know, I'm curious about, I guess the message that I may communicate to its user base. When on the one hand, a platform is inspired and wants to offer a new feature and a new way to create content. On the other side, it's almost like an act of desperation or an act of fear, which is, well, now we have to do this too, because if we don't, we're kind of . Dead in the water here.
[00:40:46] Jonathon Tanner: Look, I think with any industry, like you take a step back from social media. What we're really talking about is advancements in, you know, in products, right? So they have their platforms, our products, and what has happened. You know, it happened with stories with Snapchat. Snapchat came out with a new product, a new feature on their particular platform, Instagram copied it.
Tiktok, you know, it has some huge growth, so they kind of saw that went, wow, that's a great feature. We can add that into Instagram. Right. So I think what we're talking about here is kind of new formats, right? And so we would expect that there will be other formats that come along at certain points of time as well and capture people's imagination and some other upstart, you know, we talk about huge companies now, like Facebook is a massive established company now, and there's always going to be new startups that come along and still share that capture people's attention because people are getting, you know, like anything like any existing product, people, tire of it, they get a little bit overusing it and something new and shiny comes along and they jump on it.
Right. So I think, yeah, to a certain extent, I say know, businesses are entitled to roll out new products, new features to compete with their competition and I think that's what we see Instagram do. I think that's what we've seen YouTube do. And apparently LinkedIn is going to do it interesting. You know, LinkedIn came along and they, they tried stories and stories has been, you know, hasn't really resonated . With their particular audience base.
And so there's a lot of talk about, do they wind that back? Do you know, do they, do they see us doing it and do they try something like TikTok they know, and, you know, it's yet to be seen whether or not, YouTubve shorts is something that YouTube has announced. They're giving away a hundred million dollars to creators, to people to create YouTube short content mean it's, it's insane.
I mean, they're dangling a massive cherry in front of people to try and get people to use this new feature in YouTube, because they're realizing that, Hey, hold on a second. Whereas people, I mean, you should have remains the only place on the internet, really, where people go to watch long form video. All the other platforms.
I don't really go there for a long period. Like when you're watching a video on Facebook, the data is pretty clear. Like people don't watch videos more than like 30 seconds or a minute. Yeah. Yeah. People go to Facebook watch, which has this dedicated tab within Facebook, or IGTV videos on Instagram, but it's got nowhere near the traction that YouTube has.
Right? So you choose kind of out there on its own in terms of the place where people go to watch long form video content along comes TikTok, and just sort of this massive spanner in the works. Because of the strength of its recommendation engine. What was finding, even though the videos are only short, 15, 30 seconds a minute, or something like that.
What, because of the strength of the recommendation engine, people were watching, you know, 20, 30 of these things, finding themselves on TikTok for an hour at a time just going, wow. And just, you know, constantly scrolling through or getting these videos recommended to them. And that's a threat that is a threat to YouTube.
It's a threat to YouTube dominance as a place where people go and hang out and watch lots of videos. So not, not surprising that they've decided to share all that.
[00:43:55] Joseph: But on the flip side with Tiktok, because their, their initial feature is, is such a specific media format whereas, you know, with YouTube, it's a video being a video website.
And as you say, it's the only place for long form content, but there is also content of varying lengths. Like the algorithm today showed me a video that was seven seconds, you know, so, so I think the conditioning there with YouTube is pretty loose. People might be conditioned to expect bond content, too many content.
The conditioning TiktOK is pretty well all under a minute. So I do have to wonder where expansion is for them. Like if they might get into image sharing, like with Instagram or if they could even feasibly go for longer form content. I don't, I don't know. I don't see it.
[00:44:45] Jonathon Tanner: It's hard to know. Certainly if you speak to some of the larger agencies, I think. I think in terms of monetization, I think Tiktok is doing a really, really good job. And, and that helps with the credibility for it as a platform, you know, you starting to see larger brands having a pretty active presence on there because you know, in a lot of cases it's cheaper than being on Facebook.
And so that's good. And, and that ultimately the more commercially viable the business becomes, the more they have in, in CapEx to invest in improving the platform and, and rolling new stuff out. So, yeah, I mean, it's exciting, you know, we really enjoyed just kind of saying, you know, one of the other big news stories, was the removal of the law, you know, that the removal of the likes from Instagram and then the backflip to actually get people to opt out of it.
So, yeah, I mean, there's always, always a lot of exciting stuff happening in around the industry. It's certainly you know, TiktOK, you know, if I think back to last year, TikTok just, it just changed everything. You know, for the first time you've now got what you really had to market. That was pretty much dominated by, by Facebook and YouTube.
And then all of a sudden, now you've had this new player come into the market and that's exciting. I think it's really kind of mixed things up. It's given creators, you know, businesses, a chance to, to jump onto a new platform, new trend. It doesn't necessarily mean that all businesses have their audience on Tiktok, but it's certainly, you know, a way where you know, some of the other older, more established platforms, it was getting really hot, you know, they're so competitive, so many businesses marketing there. So I think, yeah, it's been a really, really good thing for the industry.
[00:46:29] Joseph: Only because I've said it numerous times on the show, I would say for my audiences, think I stopped being a 10 foot high wearing guy.
I'm still a tinfoil hat guy. So, you know, some of the things that I've heard about tick documents, relationships to, you know, certain countries that it makes it hard for me to want to fully embrace the platform. But what I will say is I have worn down over time and little by little, I find myself using TiktoK more, which is to say the time between it's installed on my phone and not installed on my phone is getting more and more projected. So another year we'll see what or where I'm at.
[00:47:03] Jonathon Tanner: If you asked me, you know, 12 months ago, my answer would have been, I don't think TikTok will be around in three months because I think the government's going to ban it, you know, because it's linked links to China. So then, I mean, I think they've become a large enough business now that they, they see that as a risk, as a major risk that, you know, they don't want to do anything that would potentially result in the app getting banned in a particular geography, because it would have pretty, pretty catastrophic, pretty catastrophic results, you know, outcomes for, for them overall.
If you started seeing those news headlines, particularly names, the top, always they countries. So I look at I think they've probably done enough now to assure the governments of their respective countries, that, that all of this starter isn't ending, ending up back with the Chinese government, but trust is broken and it could be a dominant, you know, and you could say, and we'll say, I guess.
[00:48:02] Joseph: Yeah, it's a, I mean, what I will say and I'll say positively about the format, you know, it could have been TiktoK, it could have been any other number.
Names or companies or countries that have done it. But the thing that surprised me, you know, even talking to some of the people who are Tiktok experts, is that what people that thought they were going to use it for is so far removed from everything that it is capable of. Now we talked a lot of dropshippers on this, on this program and drop will point to several things like you can do this, you can do this, you can do this, you can do this.
So not only has it turned into a great place for, you know, for fun. But it has also turned into a pretty surprising, place to be exposed to highly content, condensed information and being somewhat politically leaning. What I was probably the most pleased with was I was seeing both sides of an arguing.
And I don't want it to say what arguments are going on. I think most people regarding to this know exactly what I'm talking about, but I saw both sides. And that to me was huge because not every platform is actually so open towards letting both sides of an argument, be, be played out.
[00:49:10] Jonathon Tanner: Yeah. Look like any, like any new business. There's always the kind of early adopters and the advocates and those that come in and really lead for the penetration of it, you know? And then over time as you've experienced, you know, as adoption has grown more and more people are jumping on board and going, hey, there's a lot of legitimacy related to this particular platform.
And I think if they keep doing what they're doing, then it'll become a mainstay in the, you know, in the competitive landscape of, of different social media platforms. So yeah, it's yeah. As I keep saying, it's a pretty exciting space for us to watch. I think one of the best things about what we do is the need to constantly update our courses because it means that people need retraining. You know, people come to us, they did, we've had people graduate from our course, you know, a social media marketing intensive program. And then two years later in the coming back and they're doing it. And again, like, hey, I want the fresh content.
I want to go through the experience again. Or there was a whole bunch of stuff that I didn't implement the first time around that I want to come back and I want to do a proper, you know, this, this time around. But one of the most challenging things about what we do is the rate of change in what's there.
So I guess one of the upsides is that when we go and speak to, you know, the colleges, universities of the world, I mean, they look at the social media space and they go, wow, there's so much change there. We couldn't even, we're not even going to try and touch that particular space. You know, gardening or something that doesn't have a ton of change over time, something that's mostly evergreen.
Then a lot of the traditional education institutions go well, I'm happy to have you to invest the resources because I might, I might do this course and know that I've got 3, 4, 5, 10 years out of the course, social media. I mean, we write a course and sometimes. Literally, we were dotting the T crossing the T's and dotting the I's and then something happens and we've got to go back and we've got to . Change the content is because of some evolution or some update from one of the platforms. So yeah, it is an exciting space. It's very dynamic and which, you know, has its challenges, but also a lot of benefits from
[00:51:18] Joseph: I consider myself, a fundamentals, a person, a lot of this comes from my competitive game experience. Because what you find in games is that they get changed a lot by the developers. A certain ability is too powerful, the need to bring things in line. And what that does is you have this, this meta to the game where mastery of it is, is ever-changing and evolving. And I actually find that kinda frustrating.
If I would always say, if somebody were to make chess today, they would have to undergo changes because David was at the queen is do powerful. With the less something changes, the more you can fixate on the fundamentals. So like we were saying you know, with gardening, you know, what are the fundamentals of gardening?
Well, you know, you've got to understand soil, understand weather, understand tools, and then you specialize into the kind of flowers or plants or crops or whatever it is that you want to do. But with you and your program, have you gotten to the point where you can assess or surmise, what are the fundamentals to this, or are even your roots and your foundations still up for, you know, for a routine changing?
[00:52:28] Jonathon Tanner: We talked a lot about principles and platforms, principles, and platforms, and that's a really, really nice kind of framework. I think for most of our students to wrap their heads around, which is, hey, there's a bunch of stuff that you need to do that. Applies to any platform and that's going to be things like, you know, strategy, it's going to be things like content creation. It's going to be things like, you know, what's the post-click experience from social through to your website, you know, thinking through things like that, you know, using lead magnets, et cetera, et cetera.
Right? So there's a bunch of principles that it doesn't really matter what course you're delivering, that they kind of need to understand and then where all of the change comes in is in the platforms. You know, that's where, you know, you have this kind of mixture. If you don't have a good strategy, I think you really gonna struggle on social media, right?
So you've got to define that strategy, but then the tactical implementation of that can, can change and it can change, you know, in the space of months, you know, depending on what they decide to do with the algorithm, the challenge is that they just tell you, right? So they'll make these changes.
They provide more and more. They're providing hints. There's a bunch of accounts. And I mentioned, Maseri, you know, if anyone out there, who's an Instagram marketer, jump on and follow Adam Maseri on Instagram, he's the head of Instagram. And they use his account to provide a lot of guidance. And a lot of, you know, do this kind of myths and legends type stuff, where he clears up a lot of rumors that circulate about how the algorithm was.
And so, you know, like for example, the other value is talking about hashtags. A lot of people use hashtags in the first comment and he actually said, no, don't do that. Like put them in the actual caption as well. That kind of, that sort of stuff is really, really great. They provide guidance on, on how their algorithms work, but they don't tell you exactly.
And the reason they don't tell you exactly is because if they did everyone would copy it. Right. So I think, I think what if you're going to use social media to grow your business, I think you, you committing to lifelong learning, you know, you're committing to, yes, come in, learn the fundamentals, learn the core principles, but then, you know, come out the other side of one of our courses, you ready, you attack, but you got to understand that things might change and they might change quite quickly.
And so you've got to make sure you're committed to keeping abreast of whatever the changes are.
[00:54:48] Joseph: I think that evidence off is a core fundamental as well is, you know, conditioning people to observe changes, being able to adapt to them. I mean, you know, that should be a fundamental in many schools, but well, as we were discussing it, it's actually not the case, depending on how ingrained and how rooted things are. We both did a plant plan without realizing it. Cause you said evergreen, the gardening, and then I said rooted. Okay.
Anyways, we're pretty close to, to hitting an hour and a, and I have to say the, certainly, uh, some, some of the things on the mind,one thing I wanted to make sure I did, just in case, you know, I gotta let you go is I did want to hear a case study of one of your students.
Cause I think for a lot of people, you know, I think it would just be helpful to hear, you know, exactly happens to somebody who in particular, who's coming to the program, you know, what happens to them on their way out? I mean, you know, there's people that they come into to come back to study as well, continuing the learning, but it was, yeah. I would love to hear a case study.
[00:55:53] Jonathon Tanner: Yeah. I mean, I'll give you three and they kind of talk to the different cohorts of students that we have first is that free social media, freelancer, or agency owner. We had the, this is very, very recent. And we've got a ton of them up on our website.
If anyone wants to go and have a look at some of them. But very recently, this lady named Claire, she came to us. And one of the key things we preach is like, you need to focus on a particular niche, right? So the niche for social media service providers is typically a combination of targeting and industry and targeting once one type of service like Facebook ads or LinkedIn, organic or YouTube organic or whatever it is.
Right. So try and narrow what you do, because it's less competitive. You can make more of a name for yourself and charge a premium over and above what everyone else is charging. Right? So she came in and she, I think she works in the hotel industry or something along those lines. And she came to me and we have these kind of mental calls, one-on-one mental calls.
And she said, look, I'm thinking about doing, you know, Instagram, organic for head brands. And I said, look, I actually, you know, as a management consultant, I actually worked on a transaction years ago in the pet industry. And it's huge, right. It's a massive market. And I was like, wow, that's a really good nation.
I think there's a lot of pet, big pet brands out there that could afford to pay you a good, good amount of a good phase per month. And I said, what experience do you have in repetitive strain? And she said, I have none. And she goes, I just love dogs. And I'm like, okay. And then I was like, look, you know, I think it was the hotel industry.
I said, look, tell me about that. She's like, yeah, I worked in it for 20 years and blah, blah, blah. And she went through it all. And I could just tell that, like, there was just something there. She just wasn't, she, she she'd left that industry. And I said, as I was kind of pushing it towards her, I said, look, you've got so much experience that you got to understand you're going into an industry.
You don't know anything about. Forget social media. You're going to learn, need to learn that industry. You gonna need to learn the competitive dynamics, the pricing, et cetera, related to that industry. But I can tell she just, wasn't passionate about the, I think it was the hotel industry anymore.
And so, anyway, funnily enough, it's one of those kind of serendipitous things. Someone, one of her friend approached her and said, she'd put herself out there that she was doing the social media course on LinkedIn and approached her. And she was actually from the pet industry. Right? Talk about manifesting what you want.
And anyways, she managed to sign up this client while she was doing the course on, on two K per month for 12 months. Right. As the initial terms. So she already got five times. In the social media marketing intensive program while studying the course, she got out of the course and like two weeks later, she's not his second client.
And that's kind of our model, you know, five clients, two K per month. That's kind of your initial starting point to get your agency off the ground. And then that's the point at which you go, yeah, I'm kind of hitting that 10K per month. Mark. What's next? Do I want to grow into a larger agency or am I happy with what I've got with the selection of clients that I have?
And, and so she set up a second one. So, I mean, she's looking at like 10 X on our investment in our program. Like three weeks after graduated from it, you know, that that's amazed, like the best case that I can give you another guy I'll never forget his, his name was Adam. And he came into our course and at the time we weren't actually teaching messenger at all, came through the intensive program and then went to, got to job as like a messenger marketing specialist.
And I was like, huh, like, okay, well, we didn't teach him, but we're like we mentioned earlier, we're not, we didn't go too deep on, on messenger. And, and he was like, no, look, you know, what you did is you provided this, this injection of confidence and structure so that I could go and talk about, you know, they weren't looking for someone, they were looking for someone at an entry level, that don't necessarily.
You know, once someone who understands all the intricacies of, of automated messenger marketing, what they were looking for was someone that could talk the talk and understand the social media marketing industry. And so he's got this job and now he's one of the top messenger marketing, you know, people in the country.
And we chat all the time. He's lovely guy. So that look, there's more, there's more, you can jump on my YouTube, but a couple, couple of examples of, of great outcomes for our students. It's, it's fantastic to hear.
[00:59:57] Joseph: And it's especially, you know, encouraging to hear that things really, it took off for that lady.
You see, you said it was three weeks. Yeah. That's not, that's not too bad at all.
[01:00:09] Jonathon Tanner: I mean, you know, these are the ones where we actually put tags on them, like one to watch, you know, and then we like to get in contact with them 12 months later and hear about all this there's there's so many we've lost count.
Yeah. It's, it's great. You know, and education is this wonderful thing and people who work in education, it's just kind of, you get this little warm, fuzzy feeling because it tends to be, you know, an investment that people make or a commitment that people make the puts their whole lives off on this. You know, it's like a fork in the road puts their life in a whole new direction.
And when it, you know, when that, when that new direction turns out to be something that's really, really positive. You know, has a improvement in their life.\ When you hear those stories, it, yes. It's the most rewarding.
[01:00:52] Joseph: It's wonderful to hear. I mean, I do relate in a smaller scale because, you know, I hear it here in Toronto.
I was able to help out, you know, a few people on a person to person basis understand podcasting and how to get into all of that. Yeah, just to back up on that point, knowing that we've been able to unlock information for other people,, it does go, it does go a long way. So I feel you on that, we've hit our hour.
I've got one more question for you. This one's, you know, in the, in the interest of fun. So this was somewhere between the 15th and the 17th time that I installed and uninstalled Tiktok. And I saw this video of, it's hard to describe, but it's like rows and rows of people. And I think that they're saying that it was in China and they're all behind a ring light, and they've all talking into their phone and it's like this, like get Canada house had like a militaristic feel to it.
And it's like a military academy, but for influencers and. I try to like, find more, find out more about it in preparation for this, but it's actually somewhat hard to follow up on. Either way, the question it raises is, you know, looking into, you know, the next, four or five years, beyond just, just Tiktok, do you see there being a saturation point where it gets to the point now where you have like, you know, what influencer for every two people or, you know, where do you, where do you kind of see the social media landscape going from here?
[01:02:21] Jonathon Tanner: Look, I think I used the words we used to call them channels. We call them platforms now. So, so really what, what these companies do is they create these social media platforms and, and they let people, they let the market kind of tell them exactly how it works, but like we talked about, you know, it has become incredibly competitive.
And of course, in any kind of competitive market, if there aren't the returns there. For people then they're going to leave that market. Right. So I think, I think of course, you know, you know, w we're seeing now the commercialization of influencers, but of course, yeah, it does reach a point, not just on one platform.
I think across the entire industry where it does raise kind of saturation point where people go, the returns just aren't there for me anymore. And you do tend to get people that kind of push through that point and then go on to be very successful with what they do or you get people that, you know, drop out.
Certainly if you look at the data and this is one of the key things that we look at, Is surveys that go out to all the top companies medium to large companies, particularly in the us and asking them about, do you intend to increase the key questions? Do you intend to increase your investment on influencer marketing next year?
All right. And for the last, I think like 10 years in a row, it's over, over 80% of people have said yes. All right. So. Well, obviously, if we always look where are the dollars going? Right? So if people are putting more and more money, we're talking about influencer marketing being a $15 billion industry, like it's, it's absolutely huge.
And so I think if people are continually pouring money into influencer marketing, then obviously it's working. Okay. And as long as it's working, as long as there's money pouring into it, you can expect growth. So that's going to be my forecast. I think, I think we're going to see it's being tie-dyed up as well.
That's the other big thing, you know, we, a lot of the platforms where you can go like the, you know, the Airbnbs for influences, a lot of those platforms are now working a lot harder to. To vet the influencers to make sure they're genuine, they're authentic. And that's improving brand safety. It's improving confidence in using influencer marketing.
So my prediction is you ain't seen nothing yet. I think, I think it's going to continually grow. And those dollars that influencers are making are going to attract a whole new breed of, and don't forget, we've got this, we've got this generation of people coming through now who have no, never, no. Anything but social media.
Right. So, and, and these are the ones where they're, they're so savvy, right? It's ridiculous. Right? So you've got this whole generation just about to hit their kind of twenties that have no, nothing but social media. And when they do, I think again, you'll see, even. Um, Dole is flowing into influence and marketing.
So yeah, it's, it's going to be, it's going to be a big spice.
[01:05:18] Joseph: Two things, one of them, one of the main things that really stuck out in your answer is that, you know, not everybody is going to follow through. Some people do and they become success. Some people, they find a happy place where maybe it's just a hobby to them.
And it did remind me that there are a lot of industries already facing this. If people want to get into acting, it's, it's fairly entry-level, but not as many people may get an acting as they do people who try out. So there are a lot of parallels to this and I, and I have forgotten about that. And then the other thing that I stuck out, and this is just completely me blasting off into space at this point, pardon the expression.
But I would like to see at what point, when people are going to make scifi television or scifi movies with social media presence, cause you notice they don't really have that too much of a component, but it should be there because it it's hard to see us. Yeah. I, like you said, it's hard to see us going and going away from this.
[01:06:13] Jonathon Tanner: I've heard some over some pretty, pretty crazy predictions in my time and it's hard to know, like it's hard to know where it's going to end, but, but certainly what you're talking about, I think is this concept of lo-fi video, right? Where, what works even for marketers in particular, what works on social media is when it doesn't necessarily have a great production value, because what it comes when it's user generated, it comes across as it comes across as more authentic and more at home, more native to the feed than it does.
You know, when it's this kind of high production value. And so, you know, coming back to your example, I absolutely like you, you just think of what point does a lot of the things that we see currently in video, which are, you know, a high production value, how do they start to actually bring that back to more of this kind of, and that's kind of what, where Tiktok has thrived, you know, and this concept of comedy, right?
So you think, you know, comedy videos, I think that's happened there. So what can, can happen anywhere? I can happen to any of the genres of video that we have?
[01:07:27] Joseph: Well, I there's, I mean, we can, I imagine that we can keep on, keep on going with us. So we'll let it go for here, but there was open more than happy to have you back, down the way and see how many times I've installed TiktoK. Since my predictions about 25, 26 was because.
[01:07:50] Jonathon Tanner: Sorry.
[01:07:50] Joseph: So I'll just say each episode lasts longer. So yeah.
[01:07:54] Jonathon Tanner: We'll see what you're up to, but no, look, I you know, I love talking about it. It's one of my favorite pastimes sort of predicting what's going to happen in the social media marketing industry.
And also just, you know, telling people what we're saying is the best tactics and tricks that, that we can use. And we really didn't touch too much on e-commerce, but certainly would, I'd be happy to come back and talk about some of the key marketing tactics and strategies that we're seeing you know, students have a lot of success with e-commerce, so yeah, I'd love to.
[01:08:23] Joseph: Okay, fantastic. Well the, the final wrap up question.It's in two parts. It's if you have say like a Chinese proverb or like a saying or quote, you'd like to share, you're welcome to do so, and then let the audience know how they can make contact.
[01:08:37] Jonathon Tanner: Yeah, absolutely. I think that I've so I'll, I'll address the second question first.
So just jump on www.socialmediacollege.com and you can check out what we do and yeah. If you, if you can to get in contact, please do us and you can find some, all the socials just by searching social media college, favorite quote. So I've got one, I've got a couple. The first is from Nelson Mandela and his one was founder strains, your greatest fixed expectations and never met.
Remember this, the greatest glory of life lies, not in never falling, but rising every time you fall. And I think you know, business owners, marketers, same, you know, same sort of mindset required, which is look, you're going to, you're going to encounter challenges along the way. But it's not about not encountering those challenges.
It's about learning from them, understanding their gifts and then, you know, persevering through those challenges. They're the people that come out on top. It's the ones that just roll with the punches and just keep going. Right. Don't try and aim for no failure because that that's an impossible task is there.
And the second one is that one more related and when we have a bunch of t-shirts and caps and all that sort of stuff, and, and this is probably our favorite credit social media college, which is the best way to predict the future is to create it. So I'll leave everyone with that.
[01:09:47] Joseph: Excellent. Well, I too feel that as best left with.
To everybody as always, it is an honor and a privilege to collect this information and use it for my own benefit. Just being transparent about that and share it with all of you as well. One more, thank you to Jonathon Tanner for the road. Thank you so much for your time and your expertise, and I'm looking forward to the next part of this conversation for sure.
[01:10:09] Jonathon Tanner: Awesome. Thanks Joseph.
[01:10:10] Joseph: All right everybody. Take care and we will check in soon.
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